<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/15.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
Cluster Mines (if memory serves), go off as soon as a unit enters the trapped terrain. If someone has the Marine codex handy to help me out, I'd appreciate it.

What is to stop someone from moving forward with a unit, you saying, "That terrain had cluster mines in it. 2D6 str. 4 hits!" and then them saying, "Hmm, I was thinking of moving there, but I think that I'll skirt around the terrain instead."

Anything outside of sportsmanship? How would you play it? Or is there something in the rules I'm missing that deters this?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628524.page GMT How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
puma713 wrote:Now, forgive me if I don't have the exact wording, since I'm at work, but I wanted to get a Dakka concensus about what they thought about something that happens as your opponent does something, then the opponent changing their mind.

Cluster Mines (if memory serves), go off as soon as a unit enters the trapped terrain. If someone has the Marine codex handy to help me out, I'd appreciate it.

What is to stop someone from moving forward with a unit, you saying, "That terrain had cluster mines in it. 2D6 str. 4 hits!" and then them saying, "Hmm, I was thinking of moving there, but I think that I'll skirt around the terrain instead."

Anything outside of sportsmanship? How would you play it? Or is there something in the rules I'm missing that deters this?
Cluster Mines go off when the unit moves into the terrain.

The unit hasn't moved there until the opponent declares "I have finished moving them hurrr."

If you are dumb enough to jump up and down and go "OMG YOO TRIGERZ MAH CLUSTER MIIIIIIIIINES!!!!" (or even take them in the first place ) before he does this, that's your fault.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628537.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
Edit: The punch. Gwar beat me to it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628546.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628546.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
Fiend wrote:I believe you inform them of the mines after they have finished moving the unit into the terrain. Pretty difficult to change your mind after that.

Edit: The punch. Gwar beat me to it.


Why? Where does it say that I can't decide that I don't want to move somewhere once I've moved. Moreover, where does it say that you have to declare that you're done moving that particular unit? IIRC, you're not "done" moving a unit until you move on to the next unit. It's not chess.

Unless it says this somewhere in the BGB.

Edit: Who even does this? Do people really go through each and every unit saying, "Okay, I'm done moving that unit now. Okay, I'm done with this unit." Usually, people just move their unit, and then move on to the next one. I'm supposed to wait for a "Okay, I'm finished moving that unit." When they haven't been doing it for the entire game, tournament or lives?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628558.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
puma713 wrote:IIRC, you're not "done" moving a unit until you move on to the next unit.
Exactly, so it is THEN that the cluster mines go off. If you start getting all excited and reveal them before this happens, that's your mistake and the opponent is more than able to move the unit away.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628568.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628568.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
puma713 wrote:Why? Where does it say that I can't decide that I don't want to move somewhere once I've moved.


It doesn't. But the more relevant question would be: Where does it say you can?


You measure the unit's movement, and then you move them. Nowhere do the rules say that you can go back and change that movement. They only specifically allow you to change the direction in which you are measuring.

So you can measure in whichever direction you want to move, and change your mind and measure in a different direction... but no such allowance is made once you start to actually move the models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628570.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628570.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
puma713 wrote:
Fiend wrote:I believe you inform them of the mines after they have finished moving the unit into the terrain. Pretty difficult to change your mind after that.

Edit: The punch. Gwar beat me to it.


Why? Where does it say that I can't decide that I don't want to move somewhere once I've moved. Moreover, where does it say that you have to declare that you're done moving that particular unit? IIRC, you're not "done" moving a unit until you move on to the next unit. It's not chess.

Unless it says this somewhere in the BGB.

Edit: Who even does this? Do people really go through each and every unit saying, "Okay, I'm done moving that unit now. Okay, I'm done with this unit." Usually, people just move their unit, and then move on to the next one. I'm supposed to wait for a "Okay, I'm finished moving that unit." When they haven't been doing it for the entire game, tournament or lives?



Its simple, you ask "Have you finished moving that unit?", then they either reply yes or no, if they say yes then you reply "Well my good man, I regret to inform you that that terrain piece is full of cluster mines." Either that or wait until they declare they have finished their movement phase, which by deffinition means that they have finished moving everything.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628577.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628577.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
Gwar! wrote:
puma713 wrote:IIRC, you're not "done" moving a unit until you move on to the next unit.
Exactly, so it is THEN that the cluster mines go off. If you start getting all excited and reveal them before this happens, that's your mistake and the opponent is more than able to move the unit away.


I believe Cluster Mines say "when they enter the terrain", which doesn't say to me "ends their turn in terrain". I could move one person into the terrain, through it and out of it without being in terrain by the time I declare "Okay, I'm done moving that unit hurrr." Then, I say, "Well, that terrain had cluster mines in it." And they could say, "Well, you're supposed to reveal that when I enter and you didn't."

That's equally as plausible and RAW. You are supposed to reveal them when you enter (again, iirc).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
insaniak wrote:
puma713 wrote:Why? Where does it say that I can't decide that I don't want to move somewhere once I've moved.


It doesn't. But the more relevant question would be: Where does it say you can?


You measure the unit's movement, and then you move them. Nowhere do the rules say that you can go back and change that movement. They only specifically allow you to change the direction in which you are measuring.

So you can measure in whichever direction you want to move, and change your mind and measure in a different direction... but no such allowance is made once you start to actually move the models.


Hmm - I guess I've just been too lenient with people. If you start moving - you better be sure that's where you want to go. No inching that Rhino to the right; no saying, "Well, the kinda blocks my LOS. I'm going to move it over this way." Nope, once you're there, you're there. No take-backs.

Just never played like that, I suppose. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628589.page GMT How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628599.page GMT How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
Gwar! wrote:Except they haven't entered the terrain until their move is finished.


Edit: Scratch that. I'm not even going to be a smartass. Please explain this reasoning to me. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628606.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement RAW with him.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/278461.page]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628611.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628611.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
Klawz wrote:Well then that person would be a jerk, and you would proceed to play the entire game RAW with him.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/278461.page


Yeah, I guess so. Just wanted to avoid that. I guess Insaniak's response is the most correct, but that makes you TFG as well by enforcing that every single inch that they move is final and permanent.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628616.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
puma713 wrote:

Yeah, I guess so. Just wanted to avoid that. I guess Insaniak's response is the most correct, but that makes you TFG as well by enforcing that every single inch that they move is final and permanent.


I would say that trying to take back movement to avoid mines is more in line with being TFG than making people move where they place their models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628628.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628628.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
Gwar! wrote: that's your mistake and the opponent is more than able to move the unit away.


insaniak wrote:

It doesn't. But the more relevant question would be: Where does it say you can?

You measure the unit's movement, and then you move them. Nowhere do the rules say that you can go back and change that movement. They only specifically allow you to change the direction in which you are measuring.

So you can measure in whichever direction you want to move, and change your mind and measure in a different direction... but no such allowance is made once you start to actually move the models.


You two are in disagreement. So, which is it? Can you move a model once you've begun moving it or not? Or, Gwar!, were you meaning use the remainder of their movement to move away, not change their mind?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628639.page GMT How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
You picked it up, wherever you set it down is where you moved. Tough titties. I see no legitimate way for a person to 'roll back' a movement as we can never find the original spot.

If someone is trying to move to 'accomplish' something like LOS or something then usually the person says 'I want to do 'this' with this move, do you agree the end result is possible? and then you go from there.

In this situation, If difficult terrain dice are being rolled, the second they roll them, they have committed to the move. none of this rolling and saying 'oooh bad roll, I won't move there.'

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628641.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628641.page GMT How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
nkelsch wrote:I don't know how others play it, but you can measure all ding dong day when deciding where to move. The second you pick up your model and set it down, it is impossible to return it to the original spot fairly.

You picked it up, wherever you set it down is where you moved. Tough titties. I see no legitimate way for a person to 'roll back' a movement as we can never find the original spot.

If someone is trying to move to 'accomplish' something like LOS or something then usually the person says 'I want to do 'this' with this move, do you agree the end result is possible? and then you go from there.




Fair enough. I suppose I should be playing like this anyway, instead of being lenient with my opponent's movements and them deciding where they do and don't want to go.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628654.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
puma713 wrote: I guess Insaniak's response is the most correct, but that makes you TFG as well by enforcing that every single inch that they move is final and permanent.


So don't enforce every single inch.

In practice, I've never had a problem with an opponent moving a model, deciding that's not the best spot for it, and nudging it over to the side. But that's a different kettle of fish from moving the unit and then deciding that you would rather move them somewhere else entirely.


How strictly you enforce the rules is entirely up to you.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628659.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628659.page GMT How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
nkelsch wrote:I don't know how others play it, but you can measure all ding dong day when deciding where to move. The second you pick up your model and set it down, it is impossible to return it to the original spot fairly.


This is how I have generally seen it played. It is just too hard to keep track of things when a player keeps picking up and moving models around. Say someone picks up and moves their models 6 inches forward. Decides he wants to move them back. They are not going to go back to the exact same spot that they came from, let alone he move them back only 5 inches. It just makes things too confusing and too open for sloppy play and cheating.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1628687.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
insaniak wrote:
puma713 wrote:Why? Where does it say that I can't decide that I don't want to move somewhere once I've moved.


It doesn't. But the more relevant question would be: Where does it say you can?


You measure the unit's movement, and then you move them. Nowhere do the rules say that you can go back and change that movement. They only specifically allow you to change the direction in which you are measuring.

So you can measure in whichever direction you want to move, and change your mind and measure in a different direction... but no such allowance is made once you start to actually move the models.


BRB on Movement Phase:

Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In other words, once you have started moving a unit (group of models) you can ding dong around all day with it, but once you declare the next unit, or end of phase, then that unit has moved and may not be touched again.

Nowhere in the rules does it specify what the process of moving actually is, so this is something left up to players to decide, but seeing as you count as still in the process of moving a unit until you declare the next unit and/or end of phase, I allow people to move about as they please.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1630006.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1630006.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1631031.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1631031.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
zeshin wrote:The rules do seem less than specific on the process of moving a unit (other than the obvious distance and measuring), but from a practicality standpoint once an oponant has moved a model it should be permanent. If your opponant says 'I don't like that, I want to move a different direction entirely' you have to ask them where exactly there models started. When the answer is 'I don't know, I didn't mark their startpoint' then there is no way to acurately "take back" that move.


Well generally you get an idea for it, and can measure backwards to that spot. It depends on what they act like. In a casual game if they are doing it too often and stuffing up on all their moves, then tell them to either mark the starting spot or tell them once they move a unit it has to stay there. In a tourny, if they still insist on screwing it up, call over a TO and inform them, the TO will tell them to do it properly or leave ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1631285.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1631285.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1631298.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1631298.page GMT How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement IIRC, the generally accepted convention in competitive play is that as soon as you have picked up the model, moved it, and then removed your hand from it, it has now moved to that spot. You can politely ask permission to take back the move, and your opponent can politely tell you to stuff it.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1631720.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1631720.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
So once you roll for the movement distance (for an infantry unit entering difficult terrain) or roll to see if the vehicle is immobilized you are committed to moving into that piece of terrain. You cant start to move through some terrain, roll the distance, see that you didnt roll a 6...and then decide to move somewhere else.

So unless clear terrain can be booby trapped, it should be pretty definite on whether or not a unit is moving into the terrain.


Sliggoth]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632092.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632092.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
Sliggoth wrote:You cant start to move through some terrain, roll the distance, see that you didnt roll a 6...and then decide to move somewhere else.
No, but you can choose not to move instead, which means you won't trigger the cluster mines since you didn't move into the terrain even though you rolled the test.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632140.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement SW there!


Sliggoth]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632176.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
Honestly, I think you'd get more use out of cluster mines by simply telling your opponent, "I have cluster mines in play. After you move each unit, I'll wait until you're done moving that unit and about to start moving your next unit. If you chose poorly, the spore mines go off, and the unit's doomed! Bwah hah hah."
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632235.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632235.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
solkan wrote:I just want to point out the paragraph on page 14 of the rules where it says that a unit starting outside of difficult terrain can go where ever it would like (in range, of course) after making a difficult terrain test.

Honestly, I think you'd get more use out of cluster mines by simply telling your opponent, "I have cluster mines in play. After you move each unit, I'll wait until you're done moving that unit and about to start moving your next unit. If you chose poorly, the spore mines go off, and the unit's doomed! Bwah hah hah."


I agree. That may be the wisest thing to do. Just inform them that I do have cluster mines and that I will wait until they're done completing that move with whatever unit triggers them before I reveal that they've been triggered. It might even work more into my favor, having them avoid terrain that isn't even booby trapped for the fear of taking a round of str. 4 shots (course, that's really what they're supposed to do anyway).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632257.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632257.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
solkan wrote:I just want to point out the paragraph on page 14 of the rules where it says that a unit starting outside of difficult terrain can go where ever it would like (in range, of course) after making a difficult terrain test.

Honestly, I think you'd get more use out of cluster mines by simply telling your opponent, "I have cluster mines in play. After you move each unit, I'll wait until you're done moving that unit and about to start moving your next unit. If you chose poorly, the spore mines go off, and the unit's doomed! Bwah hah hah."


After reading that paragraph, I found some exciting RaW.

You may, at will, declare any unit is is going to "try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move" regardless of whether there is difficult terrain anywhere near them. So if you please, you can have any of your units SLOW AND PURPOSEFUL minus the RELENTLESS. Not anything that will give you any kind of advantage but still amusing.

Also, hopefully GWAR is lurking for this one, any ideas WHEN you have to "declare if you want your unit to try to enter difficult terrain as part of their move" is it before or after you declare you are moving that unit? Before or after you measure the distance you may move? I'm guessing after both, but I can't quite seem to get the RaW that would indicate such?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632465.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632465.page GMT Re:How would you play it? Cluster Mines vs. Changing your movement
solkan wrote:Honestly, I think you'd get more use out of cluster mines by simply telling your opponent, "I have cluster mines in play. After you move each unit, I'll wait until you're done moving that unit and about to start moving your next unit. If you chose poorly, the spore mines go off, and the unit's doomed! Bwah hah hah."


This idea of using grown-up words and communicating with your opponent about how to play the game is ridiculous.

Do it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632820.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/298093/1632820.page GMT