Bisturi wrote:

Also, a noobish question from a noob - what is the difference between "We are legion" rule and "Master of sorcery"

I'd try to get the Changeling in the list somehow.

HQs: drop the masque and get a chariot of Tzeentch or something.

Sarnath666 wrote:The masque is much better suited for a plague style list, as you don't have the fast units to chase things, a tzeentch /slannesh list will never have a problem catching things though.

Yes, horrors survive slightly better than deamonettes, but they are more expensive and can't survive being charged by ANYTHING, including firewarriors >.> not very efficent for holding an objective,

Whereas deamonettes are able to take an objective, trash most things in combat (at 1000pts) go to ground for a 3+ save(making them just as survivable as horrors.) and move faster,

Mr twitter all good advice, but please people stop trying to convince him to use nurgle/khorne units, he's said TWICE he doesn't want to...

Warmaster wrote:

Sarnath666 wrote:The masque is much better suited for a plague style list, as you don't have the fast units to chase things, a tzeentch /slannesh list will never have a problem catching things though.

Yes, horrors survive slightly better than deamonettes, but they are more expensive and can't survive being charged by ANYTHING, including firewarriors >.> not very efficent for holding an objective,

Whereas deamonettes are able to take an objective, trash most things in combat (at 1000pts) go to ground for a 3+ save(making them just as survivable as horrors.) and move faster,

Mr twitter all good advice, but please people stop trying to convince him to use nurgle/khorne units, he's said TWICE he doesn't want to...

It's not about catching things with the masque in a tzeentch/slaanesh list. It's about pulling them out of cover. A unit of horror's shooting at fire warriors out of cover = dead fire warriors. Inside cover not so much. And you would be suprised how often a unit of horrors with their 4+ invul will tie something up in hth. They rarely kill anything (my best one to date is putting 1 wound on a trygon and killing it, but that is such a stretch it's not funny) but every now and then that 4+ invul will lock someone down, until your fiends or someone else is available to kill it off. Pulling things out of cover also helps fiends since they don't have assault grenades. And being able to flip walkers to rear armor is nothing to laugh at. It's also about pushing things away. Dismounted thunder hammer terminators are always a good bet to push away from your forces, or for last turn objective grabs.

Sarnath666 wrote:

firewarriors in cover aren't scaring this list. charge a herald into them and be done with it. Deamonettes will tie things up just as well because you have more, they will strike first and therefore damage the opponent =less attacks on them and most likley kill the unit (We ARE talking 1000pts here) they DO have assault grenades, and they can even hurt walkers >.> the masque tends to just be a waste of points in a list like this

Warmaster wrote:

Sarnath666 wrote:

firewarriors in cover aren't scaring this list. charge a herald into them and be done with it. Deamonettes will tie things up just as well because you have more, they will strike first and therefore damage the opponent =less attacks on them and most likley kill the unit (We ARE talking 1000pts here) they DO have assault grenades, and they can even hurt walkers >.> the masque tends to just be a waste of points in a list like this

5 horror's vs. 6 daemonettes isn't a ton more. The daemonettes aren't touching an av13 and can only glance an av12 which is still more than horror's can do but not by much. The masque serves dual purpose between pulling units out of cover for fiends who do not have grenades, and pulling units or pushing units away from your horrors. Thats just my own personal preference I like the supportive nature of the masque, plus I'm not above using the masque to tie down a dreadnaught either.

mrwittwer wrote:The thing you forget is most vehicles are AV10 in the back. And since daemonettes can only use rending attacks in CC they are able to kill most vehicles. Its been a while since i have played IG but i am fairly sure even Leman Russ's are AV10 or AV11 in the back. So the only things they cant kill are monoliths (which very few things can), and landraiders. Much better than horrors in all anti-tank respects.

Also something to remember is the Masque takes up a HQ slot, which, depending on your list, can be a very reliable spot. The masque's only use is her pavane which really isnt very effective. Moving a squad D6" could very well mean 1", is that even worth it? Think of how easy it is to kill a space marine. Then make it easier as she is toughness 3. And she isnt in a squad. A very specialized model that can only be effectively used with the right list. And i agree that she doesnt belong here. She is all support, that should be saved for 1500 point lists where there are more things for the masque to support.

Warmaster wrote:

So you can say that the daemonettes are better in all anti-tank aspects until you get a vehicle moving over 6 inch's a turn, tank shocking you off of an objective on the last turn. This is the exact situation I'm talking about and if the other person is going second you are screwed, since tank shocks resolve at front armor you are going to have to roll a 6 followed by a 5-6 just to try to glance an av12, and thats what you are going to need to roll to penetrate av11. The horror's odds are much better.

Also any vehicle going fast would look like this 40 attacks from 10 daemonettes, is about 6.5 hits, you then should average 1 6, you then need a 3 or better, which means you have about 75% chance to get a pen, then needing another 5 or 6 to take out the vehicle. Which means that overall your daemonettes have about a 25% chance of killing any av10 vehicle. Now on the plus side you made that vehicle move fast so it's either not shooting or shooting at reduced effectiveness, still not good odds by any means. Now the horror's taking their one bolt shot at an av11 vehicle only ends up at something like 12.5% but they get to do that from 24 inch's away, instead of right next to the vehicle, and it goes up to a little better than 25% if it tank shocks.

About the masque. So if you have the masque, a squad of fiends, and 2 squads of flamers, not to mention 3 chariot heralds in the backfield, what are you going to shoot at? Who is the biggest threat? The masque survives through the use of los block terrain or target saturation. You basically just need to have higher threat targets than the masque around. And 1 inch can mean the difference between a dead squad of marines and one that's laughing at you. 3 tzeentch chariot heralds generate on average around 6 meq wounds, if in cover you only kill 3, if they go to ground you kill 2, pull them off of the cover and you just killed 6, which is a combat squad. Or take an assault squad, stick it in cover and dare the unit of fiends to assault it you will lose 1 to 2 fiends before they get to hit, the masque can pull it out of cover and give you the initiative for the assault. The masque can also spin dreadnaughts so you can take rear armor shots instead of their front 12 or 13. This to me is huge with the new blood angel's blood talon dreads, those things are just nasty.

I'm not saying every list should have horror's and every list should have the masque. I actually do like to see daemonettes in scarbrand lists (although usually that's about it). It also comes down to play style some people will just be more comfortable with daemonettes or horrors and thus those units will be more usefull.

mrwittwer wrote:Much better than horrors in all anti-tank respects.

Bisturi wrote:And how 2 DPs helps to deal with LR? I don't get the point. And what's 'bout a full-Tzeentch army-list? Will it be survivable?

matthc wrote:@ Bisturi
@Calypso

You forget thatmost of the time they require at least a 4+ to hit, reducing their attacks by half. When you face intelligent opponents, your attacks are reduced to 1/6. Assuming LR that means that of all your attacks 5/6 hit, then you require a 10 among 2 dice to penetrate (assuming strength 5) the chances of you getting a 10 or more is (1/6) again. To do anything to a LR you need a 4,5,6 or (1/2). This gives you a total chance of (1/6) x (1/6) x (1/2) or (1/72) to do anything meaningful to a LR. When you say the next best thing, you are wrong, considering BS 3 your chances of hitting are (1/2) X (1/6) x (1/6), these results are actually the exact same. When your bolts are being fired by DP or Heralds with their Higher BS the chances increase even more. I know that cover can effect that, but that is a different story.