Latest posts for the thread "2,000 Points Deamons - revamped"

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

Hey guys and gals,
Im back with another installment in my slowly growing horde of deamons. Well this time I decided to take the olde "Bum Rush" approach to this list and tossed around some ideas. This list pretty much plays out as send the units off into combat ASAP. No major tatics just get in and out. I decided to side with Slaanesh seeing I have not seen many many Slaanesh lists and the only other deamon player I know plays Tzeench. So what do you guys think about this list. Of course I have some of my notations kicking around.

Skarbrand, The Exiled One – 300 Points

Fiends of Slaanesh x5 – 150 Points
Fiends of Slaanesh x5 – 150 Points
Fiends of Slaanesh x5 – 150 Points

Daemonettes of Slaanesh x 10 – 150 Points
Daemonettes of Slaanesh x 10 – 150 Points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points
Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points
Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points
Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points

Seekers of Slaanesh x 10 – 175 Points
Transfixing Gaze
Seekers of Slaanesh x 10 – 175 Points
Transfixing Gaze

Soul Grinder – 160 Points
Tongue
Soul Grinder – 160 Points
Tongue

Now my thoughts.
I recently might have ruined a deamonette model, so insted of fielding 10 in group 2 of them I was thinking of just making a group of 9 and fully buff them up with Icon and Gaze. That way they will have some form of combat prowless. I had also thought about ditching a Soul Grinder and some of the fiends or the plaugebearers and get another Slaaneshi leader or a greater deamon running around.

So what do you all think before I walk into a local tourney with this list?

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Warmaster — GMT

You should always max out a fiend unit if you are going to take them. I also like to put the unholy might on one of them (the str6 helps insta-death t3 and gives you a chance (albeit very slim) of penetrating a land raider.

Also the masque is amazing in conjunction with this much fleeting. It's the cheapest pavane support you can get.

I would go down to one squad of daemonettes and use the points to boost up the fiends and buy the masque.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

Warmaster wrote:You should always max out a fiend unit if you are going to take them. I also like to put the unholy might on one of them (the str6 helps insta-death t3 and gives you a chance (albeit very slim) of penetrating a land raider.

Also the masque is amazing in conjunction with this much fleeting. It's the cheapest pavane support you can get.

I would go down to one squad of daemonettes and use the points to boost up the fiends and buy the masque.

Kinda stand offish about Masque
Is she really that good?

And forgot that would be a better plan to give some buff to the fiends.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Warmaster — GMT

Fossil Hunter wrote:

Kinda stand offish about Masque
Is she really that good?

It's the cheapest way to get pavan'es into your army. With a few pavanes it essentially gives your cav model's 6 +2d6 +12 for the charge, It also allows you to play a bit more conservatively with your drops since you can pull things around. Really the only downside to the masque is in kp games where she can be killed easier than a unit, but it will usually take a bit of fire to down her, thus leaving some of your other units more in-tact.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

I would max fiends. Drop the soul grinders. Get some Tzeentch DP. Unless you are happy with Seekers I would at least test Hounds. I prefer them in terms of surivabilty.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

Just curious but why drop the Grinders. But then again Me thinks you're suggesting to have the big blue bird to use bolt of change spam?

Also If I selected Masque what base size does she come on. Ive got a assembled Sigvald, the Magnificent and was thinking of changing the bases and proxying it seeing this is a list for casuals at the moment.

I would love to use the flesh hound + Kunanak but I cannot seem to get them to survive too much. Would love to run a khorne list down the road with multiple packs of the wolves and one uber prince.

Just need some clarity.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

calypso2ts — GMT

The Masque comes on a standard infantry base (same as Daemonettes). I look at her as a model that can come in move some units and if all goes well there will be nothing not in assault to shoot at her anyway.

I have started running Daemonettes in squad sizes of 12, 10 is just not big enough after casualties to do what I wanted. Also, I agree with maxing the fiends and adding unholy strength to them.

DP are preferable in some ways to a SG because all the antitank will be focused on a SG. It takes 4 wounds to take down a prince. If your opponent is shooting Lascannons at both (likely with Phlegm upgrades).

For a MEQ:
2/3 hit (BS 4)

On a SG:
1/3 Pen
1/3 Wrecked

Which means 2/27 chance to kill it.

On a DP
5/6 Wound
1/3 Saved

Which means a 5/18 chance to wound it, this has to occur 4 times which gives the DP a good chance to be in combat. Also, a single 'lucky' shot cannot take down a prince, Melta's are the same as Lascannons to them and they have a smaller DS footprint.

SG are good, I just prefer princes for their survivability in a Mech rich environment.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

well yeah,

I was just going to do the 2 waves of killing. Just split it up and make sure the grinders are in each group before spawning. Prince is nice.

So how do you think the list would orgional preform in the long hall before I change it up again.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

Basically. Here is my two cents. There is really only 1 competitive daemon build, all other take aspects of this list and add it to their own making theirs slightly competitive. *cracks fingers* Prepare for rant.

HQ:
These vary by points cost, but generally Heralds are the best ones to stick with unless you are attempting to use Skarbrand with this build. Oh and Fateweaver sucks, at least with any build that attempts to be competitive.

Elites:
In terms of Daemonic elite choices, Fiends are the best. Hands down. Everyone knows that Beasts of Nurgle suck, so we can eliminate them from the discussion starting now. Now on to Flamers. Flamers are nice for their killy template of doom. Unfortunately, they do not survive long enough in combat to use it against anything that survived their initial barrage of fire. If you honestly think that they can kill anything they shoot at, your slowed and can stop reading, if you even know how to read. While flamers are nice in nice small squads, they really only provide one thing. Anti-infantry fire. Yes you can glance a vehicle, but what happens when you are close enough to glance a transport? That's right, you get assaulted by the assault goodies inside. Yes even I.G. in their chimeras can kill your three flamers in combat. So now we are back to Flamers amazing anti-infantry abilities. Oh wait, the entire Daemon codex is filled with anti-infantry? Flamers get to the back of the bus.

This next comparison requires a paragraph of its own. Crushers versus Fiends. Lets compare. Crushers and Fiends both have anti-infantry capabilities. However, against anything CC units they are. Fiends bring tons of attacks, meaning they really don't care what kind of save you have. They bring you down through sheer weight of attacks. Crushers have less attacks but their attacks mean more to units with ARMOR saves. So when crushers fight TH/SS units or any unit with a Invulnerable save, they rapidly lose effectiveness. Moving on. Fiends can also threaten dreads and vehicles with rending and number of attacks. Don't think rending will hurt vehicles? Ever played versus genestealers? Now imagine genestealers with more attacks, higher strength and an 18 +d6 in threat range. Yeah, I'm scared too. While most now bring up the comparison of survivability, they both have the same number of wounds and the same cover save. Which means that are not that different when opponents are attempting to bring them down, except that the fiends threat range actually lets them use cover and once they are in CC it doesn't matter as much as they are hitting first and can get out of CC if they want. Did I mention mobility? Oh yeah, probably the most important difference. Sure, the idiot argues that a Crusher can use DS properly to get into range. They forget that Crusher's properly deep strike against Noobs, as everyone with any sense sets up DS defense, keeping those crushers away from anything they can possibly threaten. Fiends on the other hand can DS a generous distance away and get to almost anything next turn. The final and probably most overlooked factor is the cost difference. Fiends are the cheapest choice out of everything, which is ridiculous as Beasts need to be free for anyone to want to take them.

Troops:
Plaguebearers. Plain and simple. What are troops meant to do? That's right, hold objectives. What do Plagubearers do better than any other troop? That's right, hold objective. See the pattern? Well for those that don't I will analyze everything else. Bloodletters are nice, but die like Orks in the open. They face the same problem that crushers do once in combat; it generally only lasts one round. Daemonettes die like IG in the open. Sure they can do some damage if taken in squads larger than 10, but when you are throwing them into combat and they need to be in squads of 10+ to even survive, do you really want to be using them to hold objectives? Thought so. Horrors are decent, they have arguably a very nice gun, a nice save and a JP. Unfortunately, they cost a ton and suffer like Daemonettes when they enter into combat. Except they don't strike first, and they might as well not have arms as they really don't do anything either. Now you might be thinking that hey Plaguebearers still suck, but you overlook that they suck the least. They have a 5+ invulnerable, are T5 and have feel no pain. You probably also forgot about their cover save because you don't use them properly. When they are doing their job (holding an objective) they should be getting a cover save. Ideally that should be a 4+, going to ground? That's a 3+. Hey look here, we basically have plague marines with an invulnerable save at only 15 points. I know they are not the exact same as plague marines, but they sure as hell survive like them. Wait. They don't have rhinos you argue, how will they ever get to an objective. Oh right, they DS.

Fast Attack:
Fleshounds of Khorne. I know you hate to admit it, but these guys are not that bad. Let's get rid of everything else first. Everyone hates Furies. Goodbye Furies. Screamers? What you really want to pay that much for a SINGLE meltabomb on an overglorified paper jetbike? Do you not understand how meltabombs work? First you have to hit, with your one attack. Against most things that's a 4+ or a 6 if they have any sort of brains. Wait you have to take them in sizes of at least 6 to ensure a statistical hit against a fast moving vehicle? Yeah, that's why they suck.

Now the fast attack hot debate that deserves a paragraph of it's own. Seekers versus Hounds. They both have the same mobility. Check. Now lets check CC. Seekers have 1 more attack at 2 less strength on a charge with rending. Sure they can hurt fexes, but if rending was freaking amazing enough to turn strength 3 around, wouldn't everyone be using penal legions? I know the rending comes into it's own versus vehicles, but you really want to use the hounds to back up your fiends and take on swarms of infantry. Against most things strength 5 initiative 5 attacks on a charge will really do the job. Just ask the Blood Angels. Sure you don't have a good invulnerable save, but everyone forgets about that cover save. At least you are T4 as opposed to the seekers T3. Don't get me wrong, hounds are not amazing win all units, but taken in large numbers (squads of at least 10) they can really cause some damage or at least draw enough fire power away from your units of fiends. I mean in squads of 12 they literally are the same on the charge with a slight difference in initiative and no rending. Remember, it's not the rending that really makes fiends deadly, it's their sheer number of attacks, something hounds bring to the table.

Heavy Support:
Daemon Princes. No real contest. Soul grinders get targeted by every lascannon and meltagun in every army the second they show up. With the dominance of mechanized armies, most armies really pack their lascannons and meltaguns. Thus, Soul Grinders drop like flies. Now in regards to the layout of Daemon Princes. I prefer Tzeentch. I feel that the real weak spot in a daemon codex is ranged anti-tank, which is the only real type of anti-tank anyways (CC doesn't really count). So I choose to have Tzeentch princes who have a nice 4+ invulnerable save and give them bolt. That's about it really. If you want breath, that's fine, but not really necessary. For god's sake you don't need to give this Daemon prince wings, they DS in and their main purpose is to shoot. Because you don't need to give them Armor or wings, I feel like they are definitely more cost efficient and feel and lacking role a lot better than any other DP build. That's just my opinion, and I understand the purpose of other DP, but they just can't fill the role that a Tzeentch prince does at the points cost he does. Sure they can be really killy, but is that really necessary in a Daemon army list when your Elite and fast attack are CC machines?
>

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

Well thats good then,
I can grab one of the kitted out DP's insted of the grinders. And with the left over points give upgrades to the elites, and maybe drop one deamonette squad so I can add another hearld of Slaanesh. And yes I am running Skarbrand to lead the assault. However I feel that if I add Tzeench into my list I might be a bit too fragile but If I scap some loose ends I could give some bonuses to heavier hitters.

ok hypothetaclly my Princes should look like this? - I am starting to like the idea of taking nasty hitters like the DP's

Deamon Prince
Mark of Tzeench
Master of Sorcery
Boon of Mutation
Breath of Chaos
TP: 175

Deamon Prince - maybe I should run an undivided prince? or anther Tzeench prince.
Mark of Nurgle
Iron Hide
Unholy Might
TP:160

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

Boon of mutation isn't really all that necessary neither is breath, bolt would be far more useful and cheaper.

I would not worry about a nurgle DP because you need to really kit them out and that tends to be a waste of points. I mean the real purpose of your DP is to provide Firesupport. It is understandable that you don't like Heralds of Tzeentch, but they can be survivable with their sheer number of wounds and the annoyance of bolts running around popping transports. I would try running hounds in squads of 12. If you don't like them that's okay, but at least give them a shot.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Warmaster — GMT

For 160 my favorite daemon prince is: mark of tzeentch, demonic gaze, bolt of tzeentch.

This helps against av10 vehicles, and also helps to thin out marines before your fiends hit.

I'm going to disagree with some of what matthc is saying:

Fiends are definitly good, I like them alot. But to me flamers will always hold a special place. Combined with something that can pavane they are just utterly nasty, and with the advent of soo much feel no pain, and wound allocation shennaningans (in the case of rending)I think they are a decent choice. My preference is to take 2 of one and one of the other.

I disagree with the plague bearer assessment. You pay 75 points for a unit of plague bearers, who can be tank shocked off of an objective and won't be able to do anything about it. Also once they are on the objective they do nothing but sit there, about the only thing they will contribute is a diversion of your opponents fire power, but why should they divert shots when they know they can just tank shock you off the objective. For an extra 20pts horror's can throw out shots and actually have a decent anti-tank shock weapon in the form of the bolt of tzeentch. Definitly the horrors aren't for every army but they do serve a purpose. In a vacuum plague bearers look better, but when combined with the rest of the army other choices present themselves.

I take screamers. They are in every single one of my lists over 1750. They are there for land raiders and demolisher's. Everything else is av10 to the rear so can be beater down with str5. You may argue and complain that they aren't worth the price but it's really the only option for having a shot at taking out a land raider, unless you are talking bloodthirsters or soulgrinders, which have their own issues.

I do think fleshhounds are an underrated unit, and like them large with karanock and a fury upgrade.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

Well,
I did some number crunching and found out for the 160 points I can field 2 of the Tzeench priests not sure how they would work with Skarbrand and the other units I could run them like this without too much problems. Like...

Prince
Mark of Tzeench
Bolt of Tzeench
Deamonic Gaze
Total: 160

Now I could make them 170 seeing this is going to be 20 points over and give them "Master of Sorcery"

Hows that?

Also I see you have not mentioned the Blue Scribes yet? They seem fun to play.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Warmaster — GMT

Fossil Hunter wrote:Well,
I did some number crunching and found out for the 160 points I can field 2 of the Tzeench priests not sure how they would work with Skarbrand and the other units I could run them like this without too much problems. Like...

Prince
Mark of Tzeench
Bolt of Tzeench
Deamonic Gaze
Total: 160

Now I could make them 170 seeing this is going to be 20 points over and give them "Master of Sorcery"

Hows that?

Also I see you have not mentioned the Blue Scribes yet? They seem fun to play.

The blue scribes are fun, but since you aren't fielding horrors they have no place to hide.

You don't need master of sorcery. Monstrous creatures can already fire 2 weapons a turn. Since they have a good initiative (at 5) they should mesh well with the scarbrand led army.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

Well this is good I like this.
So this is now more of a undivided balanced demons which is good.

Might get them hounds, maybe remove some of the plauge bearers?

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

@ Warmaster

I basically covered your entire argument for using Flamers in my rant. I understand that they are very good, especially with Pavane. Unfortunately, they really only provide something that your Fiends and your hounds already fill. Anti-Infantry. Every tried them against TH/SS Termies? I'm not trying to sound harsh, I understand where you are coming from, it's just that in a completely competitive list fiends are a near must. You can get by without flamers, but without fiends? You will most likely be fighting an uphill battle. Yes they can be tank shocked. But if your opponent is running around with transports willy nilly, you have far larger problems than some bearers off of an objective. The analysis I presented takes into account the best of each slot and combines them into a list that utilizes them6 together. Sure I would love to have ultra flamers in every slot, but when they are in the elite slots, they restrict you from taking units you almost need. FIENDS. If you really want the flamer, give them to your princes or your heralds. That way you are insured that they survive in combat or at least to where they can use them. Back to the plague bearer argument. Ideally your fiends and DP and Heralds should all be attacking transports popping them open. Then your hounds and remaining fiends can perform mop up with the goodies inside. Sure you have a chance to prevent tank shock with horrors, but you also die to lasguns.

In regards to Land raiders, yes screamers are one of the only things in the Daemon codex besides MC that can take Land Raiders Down. That's why the Daemon codex is not very competitive, you just have to make do with what you have. Like Ork's before Deffrollas. Now if Bolt of Tzeentch was a melta or lance weapon, now we would be talking. I would rather try to kill everything besides a LR in a marine army with my fiends and hounds than waste a slot that hounds take up for the small chance that a melta bomb has of destroying a raider. Your hounds actually have a greater chance of blowing up rear av 10 vehicles than screamers. Not trying to argue, merely trying to state where I'm coming from, as I understand where you are coming from. Once in a game I had 3 mass units of flamers that killed around

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Nitros14 — GMT

Yeah I think you'd find Tzeentch Princes to be more useful than Soul Grinders due to not dying quite as easily on turn 1.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Warmaster — GMT

matthc wrote:@ Warmaster

I basically covered your entire argument for using Flamers in my rant. I understand that they are very good, especially with Pavane. Unfortunately, they really only provide something that your Fiends and your hounds already fill. Anti-Infantry. Every tried them against TH/SS Termies? I'm not trying to sound harsh, I understand where you are coming from, it's just that in a completely competitive list fiends are a near must. You can get by without flamers, but without fiends? You will most likely be fighting an uphill battle. Yes they can be tank shocked. But if your opponent is running around with transports willy nilly, you have far larger problems than some bearers off of an objective. The analysis I presented takes into account the best of each slot and combines them into a list that utilizes them6 together. Sure I would love to have ultra flamers in every slot, but when they are in the elite slots, they restrict you from taking units you almost need. FIENDS. If you really want the flamer, give them to your princes or your heralds. That way you are insured that they survive in combat or at least to where they can use them. Back to the plague bearer argument. Ideally your fiends and DP and Heralds should all be attacking transports popping them open. Then your hounds and remaining fiends can perform mop up with the goodies inside. Sure you have a chance to prevent tank shock with horrors, but you also die to lasguns.

Lets take the example of th/ss termies. 3 flamers and the masque are a little more expensive than 6 fiends with one with unholy might. The only thing the masque is doing is guaranteeing that all 5 th/ss termies are under the template. So 15 hits from flamers 7.5 wounds, 2 th/ss termies die. 36 attacks from fiends, 18 hits, 3 rends, 9 normal wounds, 2 th/ss termies die it's equivalent, the downside is the next turn the flamers die from the th/ss terminator charge, whereas the fiends will eventually wear the unit down and have half of their number left. Now throw feel no pain on those terminators, the fiends will now only be getting 1 1/2 terminators a turn, which means it's not as likely for anything to survive. The large the unit, the better the flamers will do, the smaller the unit the worse the fiends will do. Now take another deathstar king. Nob bikers. 10 Nob bikers nets you 15 wounds of which they save 5 from flamers. 36 fiend attacks get you 3 rends, 9 wounds, 2 rends get through, 2.5 wounds get through, the nobs then eat your lunch.

The best of both worlds is to flame something with the flamers and then mop up with fiends. Which is why I was saying a mix of 2 fiends to1 flamer or 1 flamer to 2 fiends is a good balance.

I also have the same sort of thing for the troop choices. Horror's to hold back objectives and plague bearers to hold front objectives. Outside of rapid fire range it gets much less likely you are going to take out the horrors, and inside of rapid fire range the plague bearers will be much more survivable. Also the back objectives are the most likely to get land speeders, or other fast moving flimsy stuff that you might be able to shoot, or wave serpents etc, that the horrors have a chance of stopping.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

well thanks for your inputs everyone!
I also wanted to let you know I down graded 1 group of Deamonettes and gave my fiends "Unholy Might" and let me say they are walking can openers lately. I cut one of the deamonettes becuse I ruined the paint job...made her look really bad =(. But it all makes good with the killing power of these fiends. The list is 20 points over the 2k limit but for a casual game I dont think people would mind too much, what do you say?

Also, would it be too "cheezy" to just remove the group of 9 deamonettes and higher out another prince / or fighty leader even though I got skarbrand. Or be adventerous and do what yall said and buy up some hounds.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Warmaster — GMT

Maybe post up a revised list or edit your first post so we can see the current incarnation?

Nothing wrong with throwing in another character especially at 2k.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

Roger that!
back to the drawing boards!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well back from the drawing boards and this is what I came up with.

Skarbrand, The Exiled One – 300 Points

Fiends of Slaanesh x5 – 160 Points
Unholy Might
Fiends of Slaanesh x5 – 160 Points
Unholy Might
Fiends of Slaanesh x5 – 160 Points
Unholy Might

Daemonettes of Slaanesh x 10 – 150 Points
Daemonettes of Slaanesh x 9 – 126 Points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points
Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points
Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points
Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points

Seekers of Slaanesh x 10 – 175 Points
Transfixing Gaze
Seekers of Slaanesh x 10 – 175 Points
Transfixing Gaze

Demon Prince of Chaos – 160 Points
Mark of Tzeench
Bolt of Command
Demonic Gaze

Demon Prince of Chaos – 160 Points
Mark of Tzeench
Bolt of Command
Demonic Gaze

Im thinking of dropping some of the Nuglings anlong with the group of 9 deamonettes, sure they're decent defesive units however its hard to resist the call to add other leader or a prince or even those hound. However I do need the foot soldiers in case the deep strike / rays of death and fiend rush does not work in my favor. Right now I think the list comes in at 2020 points, should I upgrade to 2250 for casuals. Im not sure what the standrard 40k limits are for points, in WHFB its 2250-3k.

and thanks!

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Mafty — GMT

never udnerstood why someone would want skarbrand.....

If anyone has a higher inititaive than you (or you assault into cover with no grenades) and skarbrand is around, your OPPPONENT gets rerolls to hit YOU......how does that help you at all?

Hmmm....so those genestealers I assaulted now have preffered enemey.....now I die......Not smart

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Warmaster — GMT

Most people don't normall go over 2k for casual pick up games.

I would recommend dropping both untis of daemonettes. Bump the fiends up to 3x6, and add in a third daemon prince.

The other option would be to add in the masque or some tzeentch heralds on chariots instead of another daemon prince.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

Warmaster,

Dropping the deamonettes would work. Might as well use them as painting practice. 3 x 6, are you refering to 3 groups of 6 indviduals. And what would you recommend as another prince...Tzeench?

I would not do the chariots. Sure I love them but then again the lose IC. But then again when you got nothing but princes running around does it really matter?

oh and Mafty
Skarbrand is used for the awsomeness. Someone explain why Skarbrand is good. I can without making me look dumb.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Mosg — GMT

I'm starting to like the idea of a Slaaneshi Prince with mini-Fzorgle. Much more survivable and great against non-CC units.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Warmaster — GMT

Fossil Hunter wrote:Warmaster,

Dropping the deamonettes would work. Might as well use them as painting practice. 3 x 6, are you refering to 3 groups of 6 indviduals. And what would you recommend as another prince...Tzeench?

I would not do the chariots. Sure I love them but then again the lose IC. But then again when you got nothing but princes running around does it really matter?

oh and Mafty
Skarbrand is used for the awsomeness. Someone explain why Skarbrand is good. I can without making me look dumb.

Sorry the 3x6 meant 3 units of fiends, 6 fiends per unit. I would just do the third daemon prince like the first two leave them all tzeentch.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

insaniak — GMT

matthc wrote: If you honestly think that they can kill anything they shoot at, your slowed and can stop reading, if you even know how to read.

For the record, I got this far through your rant and very nearly deleted the whole thing.

In the future, I would recommend making your rants a little less confrontational. Insulting anyone who might have a cause to disagree with you isn't the way to get people to actually pay attention to your point of view, and isn't conducive to a long and prosperous 'life' on the forum.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Centurian99 — GMT

Fossil Hunter wrote:
Skarbrand, The Exiled One – 300 Points

In a Fiend list, Skarbrand is just sick. Proxy playtesting has shown me that skarbrand's just ridiculously synergistic. Converting one (picked up another Thirster as my prize from Ard Boyz) is my next personal project once I finish the 3 commissions I've got on my table right now.

Fossil Hunter wrote:
Fiends of Slaanesh x5 – 160 Points
Unholy Might
Fiends of Slaanesh x5 – 160 Points
Unholy Might
Fiends of Slaanesh x5 – 160 Points
Unholy Might

Really, I'd either drop them to 12 total in 2 squads of 6, or scrounge the points for 3 more to give you 3x6. The extra attacks are always good, and more bodies means you can take more casualties. These are your all purpose, take on nearly anything models, so you want them to stick around as long as possible.

Fossil Hunter wrote:
Daemonettes of Slaanesh x 10 – 150 Points
Daemonettes of Slaanesh x 9 – 126 Points

Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points
Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points
Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points
Plaguebearers of Nurgle x5 – 75 Points

I'd probably do one large block of daemonettes and 2 10-man squads of plaguebearers, but YMMV. As it is, these guys are only good for objective holding. With larger squad sizes, they become credible offensive threats, and have resilience either naturally (Nurgle) or through numbers (Slaanesh). With most missions allowing units to hold multiple objectives, only having three troop units isn't a problem.

Fossil Hunter wrote:
Seekers of Slaanesh x 10 – 175 Points
Transfixing Gaze
Seekers of Slaanesh x 10 – 175 Points
Transfixing Gaze

Another prime opportunity to combine squads. 1 single squad, perhaps with a few less seekers (to afford the 3x6 fiends I mentioned earlier).

Fossil Hunter wrote:
Demon Prince of Chaos – 160 Points
Mark of Tzeench
Bolt of Command
Demonic Gaze

Demon Prince of Chaos – 160 Points
Mark of Tzeench
Bolt of Command
Demonic Gaze

I think you're going to be disappointed in these guys. IMNSHO, you're better off with 2 soul grinders with tongue. Your fiends and seekers can handle Anti-Tank except for land raiders and monoliths, and that's where these guys fall short. 4++ saves is nice, but not generally as good overall as the AV13.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

hey again,
I jotted down this list and was wondering if its a step down or a step up from what I last proposed as a demon list. I decided to not rely on the troop choices so much so thats why I went minimal troop choices but gave out candy for the other troops. However I might be able to rehab the choices, its your call on that. Seems the rest of the list is working out just fine. So here is my newest ideal...or hit of insanity.

Bloodthirster - 300
Instument of Chaos
unholy might
Blessings of the Blood God
Deathstrike

Fiends of Slaanesh x 6 -190
Unholy might

Fiends of Slaanesh x 6 - 190
Unholy might

Fiends of Slaanesh x 6 - 190
Unholy might

Bloodletters x 10 - 170
Fury of Khorne

Bloodletters x 10 - 170
Fury of Khorne

Bloodletters x 10 - 170
Fury of Khorne

Demon Prince x 3- 250
Wings
Bolt of Tzeench
Mark of Tzeench
Demonic gaze
Iron Hide

I think all this Tzeench is making me a bit insane.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I got a quick question then Centerion. If I drop the Seekers all together, then would I have the points to upgrade some units. Like give poison to the nugle units?

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

insaniak wrote:
matthc wrote: If you honestly think that they can kill anything they shoot at, your slowed and can stop reading, if you even know how to read.

For the record, I got this far through your rant and very nearly deleted the whole thing.

In the future, I would recommend making your rants a little less confrontational. Insulting anyone who might have a cause to disagree with you isn't the way to get people to actually pay attention to your point of view, and isn't conducive to a long and prosperous 'life' on the forum.

Will do. Wasn't really directed at anyone at all. Sorry if it came off that way.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

ok now that we have that settled.
what do you think of my last mess of a list that I posted. Trying to see is it worth concentrating on HQ/Elite/Heavy choices?

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

Bloodthirster is really just a waste of points. I would drop him and go for Herald HQs.
You don't need Iron hide on your princes as they already have a 4+ invulnerable (sure Iron Hide is nice, but is way too expensive when you have a decent alternative), Wings are also kind of worthless on your princes. You are deep striking them in and their purpose is to be shooting platforms to open transports for your fiends. I really don't like Bloodletters as troops, preferring Plaguebearers myself for survivability (something extremely important for troops especially at higher point games) Using all the extra netted points gained, I would invest in a couple of squads of 12 hounds to give you some more assault abilities. I would suggest seekers, tbut I personally prefer hounds. (Plus they are loads cheaper if you decide to use chaos warhounds to represent them). You elites are good and the princes have a nice load out except for what I already noted (wings, ironhide).

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

I tossed around some ideas and some numbers and figured this would be I nice interation of the list. It incorperates all the other ideas presented and now its just a simple rush list. Seems a bit fragile however Deep Strike and rush seems like a real basic stratagy that works (Im looking at you Orks). So I present you with another version of this wonderful warp list.

Skarbrand, The Exiled - 300 points (I might switch to two HQs however he provides some nice synergy)

6 Fiends of Slaanesh - 190
Unholy might
6 Feinds of Slaanesh - 190
Unholy Might
6 Fiends of Slaanesh - 190
Unholy Might

10 Plaugebearers - 150
10 Plaugebearers - 150

12 Flesh hounds - 190
Fury of Khorne
12 Flesh hounds - 190
Fury of Khorne

3 Deamon Prince - 160
Mark of Tzeench
Bolt of Tzeench
Demonic gaze

yay or nah? its 30 points over the 2k mark but I do fiendlies so I dont think this would be an issue. Now, I would like to add maybe big poppa wolf Kunak. So this is my latest idea.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Mafty — GMT

no offense, but 30 points over 2k is a huge issue for me, even just for friendlys. 5 points....maybe, but 30?

I dont think people should be over at all to be honest, even if it is just 5 points, 5 points for someone playing legal 2k could mean another combi-melta, and in your case could mean TWO more space marines.

Anyways, I still think skarbrand is just plain silly and will work against you countless times

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

augustus5 — GMT

matthc wrote:Bloodthirster is really just a waste of points. I would drop him and go for Herald HQs.
You don't need Iron hide on your princes as they already have a 4+ invulnerable (sure Iron Hide is nice, but is way too expensive when you have a decent alternative), Wings are also kind of worthless on your princes. You are deep striking them in and their purpose is to be shooting platforms to open transports for your fiends. I really don't like Bloodletters as troops, preferring Plaguebearers myself for survivability (something extremely important for troops especially at higher point games) Using all the extra netted points gained, I would invest in a couple of squads of 12 hounds to give you some more assault abilities. I would suggest seekers, tbut I personally prefer hounds. (Plus they are loads cheaper if you decide to use chaos warhounds to represent them). You elites are good and the princes have a nice load out except for what I already noted (wings, ironhide).

I agree with alot of this advice. I do like Bloodthirsters, they can be beasts, but I prefer tzeentch chariot heralds. I think they are the best HQ point for point. You can have three of them for what you are paying for Skarbrand.

Iron hide is wasted on tzeentch or nurgle princes. Although wings are nice on a tzeentch prince if you are not taking bolt/gaze. You can have a mean CC beast stuck into combat fast with a 4+ invul save that way.

I think bloodletters are the worst troop choice in the book (besides nurglings). Demonettes in large groups get into combat faster and hit pretty hard the first turn of the charge, horrors can sit on objectives and shoot, plaguebearers can sit on objectives and absorb fire/charges. I would only consider bloodletters if I were doing a themed khorne list.

Hounds and seekers are both good. So are screamers. Warmaster has some good posts on using screamers. If you think about using them look up those posts.

Have fun with your demons, the red headed stepchild codex of 40k!

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

ok then,
I chopped the number on the hounds down to 2 groups of 11 members. This way I still get a decent ammount of attacks / kills. I was also able when chopping down the packs to have "Fury of Khorne" power up that way. This way I can clear out infantry a bit faster. I love the seekers / screamers however I still want to figure out how to have the Kunanak running aroun (I love the background on him. Nothing like having an assassin doggy running around).

Now if I remove Skarbrand and make room for 300 points of HQ. What would the suggestions be I thinking of some hearlds seeing a big tirster is now a medicore choice. Would running one of them on foot be a bad idea?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
hey again!
this is my next version. I managed to figure out how to get some more leaders rather than one big one. I do not like the plaugebearers so they are going to become meat shields and objective captures. However with this build the opponent might have to not worry about doing actions seeing lots of deep striking and killing are going to be going on. This is a brainstorm yay or nay?!

Hearld of Slaanesh - 80
mount of Slaanesh
Transfixing gaze
unholy might

Hearld of Tzeench - 110
Master of Sorcery
We are Legion
Bolt of Tzeench
Disc of Tzeench

Hearld of Khorne - 145 - would love to toss him out on foot. what do you think.
Unholy might
Fury of Khorne
Death Strike
Juggernaught

6 Fiends of Slaanesh - 190
Might
6 Fiends of Slaanesh -190
Might
6 Fiends of Slaanesh - 190
Might

10 Plaugebearers - 150
9 - Plaugebearers - 135

11 Flesh hounds - 165
11 Flesh hounds - 165

Prince - 160
Tzeench Mark
Bolt of Tzeench
Demon Gaze

Prince - 160
Tzeench Mark
Bolt of Tzeench
Demon Gaze

Prince - 160
Tzeench Mark
Bolt of Tzeench
Demon gaze

so whatcha you think?

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

I would just go with Tzeentch Heralds. I would increase the plaguebearer squad size back up so that you can instead break those 2 squads of 10 into 4 squads of 5. Besides that it seems nice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I know this format is gakky and hurts the eyes, but here is the what I think is one of the best demon list available for 2000 points.

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 100 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 100 pts ((C:CD, pp.35 & 81); Unit Type: Infantry; Unit Type: Jetbikes; rDG: Daemonic Gaze; DGT: Master of Sorcery; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; DS: Chariot of Tzeentch; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 100 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 100 pts ((C:CD, pp.35 & 81); Unit Type: Infantry; Unit Type: Jetbikes; rDG: Daemonic Gaze; DGT: Master of Sorcery; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; DS: Chariot of Tzeentch; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts ((C:CD, pp.37 & 82); Unit Type: Beasts; DGS: Rending Claws; DGS: Soporific Musk; sW: Rending; S: Hit & Run; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts ((C:CD, pp.37 & 82); Unit Type: Beasts; DGS: Rending Claws; DGS: Soporific Musk; sW: Rending; S: Hit & Run; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts ((C:CD, pp.37 & 82); Unit Type: Beasts; DGS: Rending Claws; DGS: Soporific Musk; sW: Rending; S: Hit & Run; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts ((C:CD, pp.34 & 84); Unit Type: Infantry; DGN: Plaguesword; S: Feel no Pain; S: Slow & Purposeful; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts ((C:CD, pp.34 & 84); Unit Type: Infantry; DGN: Plaguesword; S: Feel no Pain; S: Slow & Purposeful; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts ((C:CD, pp.34 & 84); Unit Type: Infantry; DGN: Plaguesword; S: Feel no Pain; S: Slow & Purposeful; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts ((C:CD, pp.34 & 84); Unit Type: Infantry; DGN: Plaguesword; S: Feel no Pain; S: Slow & Purposeful; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (12#, 180 pts)
12 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 180 pts ((C:CD, pp.36 & 86); Unit Type: Beasts; DGK: Blessings of The Blood God; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (12#, 180 pts)
12 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 180 pts ((C:CD, pp.36 & 86); Unit Type: Beasts; DGK: Blessings of The Blood God; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (12#, 180 pts)
12 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 180 pts ((C:CD, pp.36 & 86); Unit Type: Beasts; DGK: Blessings of The Blood God; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts ((C:CD, pp.46 & 87); Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; MC: Mark of Tzeentch; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts ((C:CD, pp.46 & 87); Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; MC: Mark of Tzeentch; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts ((C:CD, pp.46 & 87); Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; MC: Mark of Tzeentch; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Source: Yes the Truth Hurts

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

you know I think i would mess around with that list, would you mind?
Also Tzeench Hearlds, I did not think you could give them bikes?
Dont you mean Discs of Tzeench?

EDIT: nevermind I assume giving the chariots would give them the jetbike sub-type. However I heard Chariots are one of the worse things to give a hearld as transportation.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

I mean it's not really my list. It belongs to Stelek really, but I don't think he minds, as long as you give him credit. Chariots are one of the best means of transportation. Sure they are no longer IC but they get far more wounds and ability modifiers for the cheapest price. Sorry if stuff is a little confusing, its Army Builder format.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

I use the same program. Im going to make some minor tweeks to change it as my own. Orgionaity yaknow.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

Yeah. I understand. What changes are you planning on making?

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

maybe just adding discs. I just dont see how to pull off a decent looking conversion for the cahriot. Also need to make room for Kunak, gotta figure out how to use him/

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

eNvY — GMT

Mafty wrote:never udnerstood why someone would want skarbrand.....

If anyone has a higher inititaive than you (or you assault into cover with no grenades) and skarbrand is around, your OPPPONENT gets rerolls to hit YOU......how does that help you at all?

Hmmm....so those genestealers I assaulted now have preffered enemey.....now I die......Not smart

Which is why you use him with Seekers/Daemonettes/Fiends, so that you're almost always striking first. It's odd that the great khornish monster works well with the scantily clad ladies . One thing to remember with Fiends is that unlike Seekers or Daemonettes they lack offensive/defensive grenades. A smart opponent will sit in cover and let you charge your fiends into his units into CC. Just about every other army in the game outshoots Daemons, so he knows you HAVE to come to him, and with the crappy save and only two wounds, even a squad of regular CSM in cover can maul a unit of Fiends before they get to shoot.

Skarbrand has his uses, but he needs to be paired with the high iniative units. Genestealers are of course the extreme example here, highly spammable models with base I6. Fortunately, this is pretty much the only case outside of Daemons that you'll face such a combination. That and Howling Banshees, but who uses those.

Oh and P.S: as amazing as Soul Grinders look and as powerful as they can be, having AT MOST 3 units with an AV that must get close to the enemy who will almost certainly be packing a bunch of meltas means they are often nothing more than first first target practice.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

Chariots are literally loads better than plain discs. In this army you really don't have anything to attach them to, so the IC status is pointless. So why not have all the extra wounds and upgrades for the same price? Just take a couple of Discs and have them attached to the Herald. I mean you are really losing efficiency for no good reason. In all ways chariots are better than discs.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

ok so if I went for the chariot what model would I use to represent it. I know chaos warriors in fantasy make a chariot but the rider doesnt seem to scream "spellcaster" so would I just paint him blue and make him the sword and cast type. Im just thinking.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

I like this one

http://www.microartstudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=646

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

^
Better than what I came up with my rough idea was to take a bunch of green stuff and make a gaint blob with tenticles sitting on a chariot base, maybe have it look like its eating a Tzeench sorrecer or soemthing.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

Lol. You could have these

http://www.tikimaster.com/product/KC40641/President-Obama-Dashboard-Dolls-4---Obama-Going-Surfing.html?meta=GBASE&metacpg=KC40641&utm_source=gbase&utm_medium=CPC&utm_content=&utm_campaign=KC40641

Literal figures of change to represent your "Heralds of Change"

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

may sound kinda crazy but I should be able to toss these on some chariot bases.

http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/monster/latest/03477
or
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/monster/latest/02868

and then for one of the "hearlds" Ill honestly be adventurous and toss him on a disc and go crazy on the paint / converting so he looks like a demon leader with his "minions" bith great and small. Just an idea.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

As a friendly update.

I decided to chop up the things temporarly and use what I have on hand as far as models and dropped down the wolves size down to 10. Got a Khorne leader on a juggernaught and some nasty power ups, and finally 2 gorups of fiends have unholy might. This way the first rush should end the game quick, however If need arises my Khorne leader will pop in and clean up the rest of the stragglers.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

hey guys Im back!
I have a quick question about this list that I decided to revamp. I am currently offically using one of the lists provided by Matt earlier in the post, and using the process of not creating another thread but recycling I have a question about this build.

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 100 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 100 pts ((C:CD, pp.35 & 81); Unit Type: Infantry; Unit Type: Jetbikes; rDG: Daemonic Gaze; DGT: Master of Sorcery; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; DS: Chariot of Tzeentch; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

HQ: Herald of Tzeentch (1#, 100 pts)
1 Herald of Tzeentch @ 100 pts ((C:CD, pp.35 & 81); Unit Type: Infantry; Unit Type: Jetbikes; rDG: Daemonic Gaze; DGT: Master of Sorcery; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; DS: Chariot of Tzeentch; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts ((C:CD, pp.37 & 82); Unit Type: Beasts; DGS: Rending Claws; DGS: Soporific Musk; sW: Rending; S: Hit & Run; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 180 pts ((C:CD, pp.37 & 82); Unit Type: Beasts; DGS: Rending Claws; DGS: Soporific Musk; sW: Rending; S: Hit & Run; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Elite: Fiends of Slaanesh (6#, 180 pts)
6 Fiends of Slaanesh @ 190 pts ((C:CD, pp.37 & 82); Unit Type: Beasts; DGS: Rending Claws; DGS: Soporific Musk; sW: Rending; S: Hit & Run; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts ((C:CD, pp.34 & 84); Unit Type: Infantry; DGN: Plaguesword; S: Feel no Pain; S: Slow & Purposeful; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts ((C:CD, pp.34 & 84); Unit Type: Infantry; DGN: Plaguesword; S: Feel no Pain; S: Slow & Purposeful; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts ((C:CD, pp.34 & 84); Unit Type: Infantry; DGN: Plaguesword; S: Feel no Pain; S: Slow & Purposeful; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Troops: Plaguebearers of Nurgle (5#, 75 pts)
5 Plaguebearers of Nurgle @ 75 pts ((C:CD, pp.34 & 84); Unit Type: Infantry; DGN: Plaguesword; S: Feel no Pain; S: Slow & Purposeful; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (12#, 180 pts)
10 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 150 pts ((C:CD, pp.36 & 86); Unit Type: Beasts; DGK: Blessings of The Blood God; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (12#, 180 pts)
10 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 150 pts ((C:CD, pp.36 & 86); Unit Type: Beasts; DGK: Blessings of The Blood God; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Fast Attack: Flesh Hounds of Khorne (12#, 180 pts)
10 Flesh Hounds of Khorne @ 150 pts ((C:CD, pp.36 & 86); Unit Type: Beasts; DGK: Blessings of The Blood God; S: Furious Charge; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts ((C:CD, pp.46 & 87); Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; MC: Mark of Tzeentch; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts ((C:CD, pp.46 & 87); Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; MC: Mark of Tzeentch; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

Heavy Support: Daemon Prince of Chaos (1#, 140 pts)
1 Daemon Prince of Chaos @ 140 pts ((C:CD, pp.46 & 87); Unit Type: Monstrous Creature; MC: Mark of Tzeentch; rDGT: Bolt of Tzeentch; S: Daemon; S: Fearless; S: Invulnerable!; S: Eternal Warriors)

My question is If I got rid of say all the HQ choices and got the demon "Fateweaver" or "Blue Scribes" I think they might add a bit of that unpridctability. Trying to save a bit of $$ and still make a resonably competitive list.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

The problem I think you are going to run into with fateweaver is that he is a big fire magnet. While he definitely can increase those saves, any smart general is just going to focus everything on him until her fails that leadership test, which isn't that difficult to do at high points values. That is his biggest problem and a problem that a lot of people who play fatecrusher tend to "overlook". Heralds on the other hand are a target that your opponent has to decide between. Do they shoot your, fiends, your princes, your heralds, your troops, and most of them just laugh at your hounds. Because they can't really decide which poses the most threat, most people have trouble with target priority. Sure Heralds fall to small fire arms, but they survive just as well versus tougher shooting as fateweaver. I wouldn't even consider the blue scribes. While they are random, random isn't really the best in a codex that suffers enough from being random already. The list that I posted has everything that a demon army needs in redundancy to ensure that all your elements reach your enemy lines.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

so the multiple heralds act as one fateweaver?
also the opponet has the old "pick your poision" after the first assault does its "thing" correct. Also not to sound crazy but is there a 1k variant of this list? Just curious seems the ammount of 1k players are growing.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

Essentially. The two heralds give you double the targets and the ability to target two separate unites. Hmmm... I would drop some princes, hounds a couple of troops and maybe 1 herald. Basically 3 fiends, some bearers and maybe a herald. At 1000 points I think you will find that 3 full squads of fiends will kill nearly anything you need to die. I really don't play 1000 points though, so I would play test before doing anything.

1500 points would be a far more balanced list if you were going to reduce this list though. If you want to know

1750: Delete 2 Heralds and 1 PB.

1500: Delete 3 Heralds, 2 PB, Karanak + Reduce his former unit to 10.

Here is a link of a player that used the 1500 point list in a tournament with Battle reports.

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/08/re-competitive-daemons-at-1500.html

And your army shouldn't be so expensive. If you use zombies from fantasy as bearers and chaos hounds from fantasy as fleshounds, you can also fiend fiend substitutes pretty easily, which means that you are talking about a pretty cheap army for 2000 points. I'm glad if I was able to help, if you need anything else, just let me know.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

yes,
read the report and that was some good information you provided. I can honestly say that Iam a proud user of the fiends. I played another game and made a rough list for 1k that used all my fiends. I played my friends IG, and never seen a large fiend sit down and play with some guardsmen. Wolves are ok, I used them as meat shields. All I have to say is poor Commander Pask. Thanks!

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

No problem. Fiends are one of the best units (in my opinion the best) in the Daemon Codex. Before rending was nerfed they were gods, if not but for a short brief few months. While they still hold their own, you are really forced to throw everything you have at units like LR to guarantee your armies survival. Just to be safe, I also like to almost always throw a unit of hounds into assault with my fiends just to make sure that the assault gets taken care of before the fiends start to drop. A lot of people really don't realize yet that weight of attacks has gotten to a point where it is far more important than power weapon attacks (especially considering the rise of the storm shield).

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

matthc wrote:No problem. Fiends are one of the best units (in my opinion the best) in the Daemon Codex. Before rending was nerfed they were gods, if not but for a short brief few months. While they still hold their own, you are really forced to throw everything you have at units like LR to guarantee your armies survival. Just to be safe, I also like to almost always throw a unit of hounds into assault with my fiends just to make sure that the assault gets taken care of before the fiends start to drop. A lot of people really don't realize yet that weight of attacks has gotten to a point where it is far more important than power weapon attacks (especially considering the rise of the storm shield).

yeah and I like the fact of having multiples of the flesh hounds now. Resoning is that I do like to use them as screening units. Pretty much block LOS against units like the IG weapon crews.

Now I thinking of switching out and using a slaaneshi prince (90)
with Sporofic Musk + Unholy might with the mount. However do you think Musk vs Gaze. -1 attack or defensive grenades?

currently my waves look sorta like this.
Wave 1: Herald, Fiends (2 Squads), Hounds (1 Squad), Bearers (2 Squads)
Wave 2: Fiends (1 Squad), Hounds (2 Squads), Bearers (2 Squads)

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

ChocolateGork — GMT

I kind of liked the soulgrinders with TONGUE.

it kind of added to the theme

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

@ Fossil Hunter

What were you thinking of switching out?

@ChocolateGork

Except Souldgrinders also get targeted by every melta and lascannon in the game, usually dying in 2 turns or less.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

matthc wrote:@ Fossil Hunter

What were you thinking of switching out?

@ChocolateGork

Except Souldgrinders also get targeted by every melta and lascannon in the game, usually dying in 2 turns or less.

Hey,
Currently my HQ for 1500 is set up like

Slaaneshi Hearld
Mount of Slaanesh
Unholy Might
Soporfic Musk - for roughly the same ammount of Pts I can switch it out for and get "transfixing gaze" so not sure have the passive grenades or give my opponent a -1 attack to their profile which might be good so I dont get back handed by a power fist.

Also Soul Grinders in my eye always seem to either get struck on the spawn or get their LOS blocked.

Re:2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

matthc — GMT

Play test both.

Personally I would keep the Tzeentch ones though. It's all about the bolt.

2,000 Points Deamons - revamped

Fossil Hunter — GMT

ok then,
Yeah at 2k I usally switch it over to the "Bolt and Collect Check" approach. But at this 1k-1.5k games. Seems my elite choices tend to kill things on whole sale so what better way to have my army leader so is sit back and act "Slaaneshi". Plus those dogs are now finally stating to pay off.

Also most of the army is fantasy anyway so I got 2 lists. Will post up later.