<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Dark Elves- 2000pts"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/93.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Dark Elves- 2000pts
On an important note, I want as much help and criticism as possible because I have had no access to a 8th Rulebook and I am relatively new to WHFB.


Supreme Sorceress
-Dark Steed
-Focus Familiar

Master- BSB- Hydra Banner
-Heavy Armor, Shield, Sea Dragon Cloak
-Lance
-Cold One

Sorceress
-Dark Steed
-Tome of Furion

2x Corsairs-10
-RHB
-Standard, Reaver- 2 RHB

2x Repeater Crossbows-10

Warriors-20
-Shields
-Full Command

2x Warriors-15
-Lordling, Standard

2x Dark Riders-5
-RXB

Cold One Knights- 11
-Dread Knight- Ring of Hotek
-Standard

War Hydra

To begin, I have tried to take a balanced approach to 8th Ed. with having some CC, Shooting and Magic. For CC, I took a a group CoK that will be used in a 2x6 formation with the BSB in the unit. This is my attempt at a hammer unit. With 21 S6, 12 S4 hits re-roll misses in the first round of combat, I figured it would cause a great deal of damage against whatever I charged into. I am not what the new rules on combet are but I hope this could either obliterate what I charged (small units) or handicap large units. I have heard lots of good things about the Hydra so I took one for the extra heavy hits.

Shooting is taken up by my RXB's. My corsairs will be the short range firing. The Dark Riders will each have one of the Sorceress in them and will also perform War MAchine Hunting.

Magic.... I am unsure of what Lores I should take. I like Dark Magic though and it has the some good anti-horde spells, such as Soul Stealer and Black Horror. Power of Darkness also gives me the ability to generate more power dice. I would like to know if I should take any of the other Lores accesible to DE.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1777469.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1777469.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1783999.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1783999.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts begging for them to go stupid on a critical turn and get charged, negating the lances.

The RHB corsairs make a better mage bunker than the Dark Riders - they are guaranteed the stand and shoot which will shred many light mage-hunting units. They are also a LOT cheaper to loose when the sorceress blows herself up.

For that matter, Dark Riders are in general significantly less useful in the new edition.

Combine the two spearmen units and take a musician. Free reforms are not to be sneered at. Heck, musicians in EVERY unit is not a bad idea anymore.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1785476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1785476.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1787210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1787210.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
But they are LD 9 with the BSB next to them can they re-roll now? They shouldnt be stupid

I really like the list. It does look very balanced, which i think probably isn't very good for us :(
Competatively i don't know how this list will hold up, but it should certainly be fun to play

I would get rid of the 2x15 warriors and spend the points on other stuff. maybe Bolt throwers.

Magic wise, Regardless of the lore you take, any sorceress will always have power of darkness, and pretty much any of the 4 lores will be useful for you.

I think if you take Shadows(or maybe death) and Metal, You could reduce the enemies stats and armour save making them easy to pick off at ranged or if you wish to charge in and squish them ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1787395.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1787395.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts BSB master with them. So a Ld 9 rerollable stupid check isnt really something to be afraid of. Give the CO's the Standard of slaughter. Epic win on most things that they charge.

Also I recommend that you take death on your sorcs. You can kill stuff with the spells and make more PD, and then use PoD to make some more PD. Even if you start with a full pool. Throw 6 at the Purple sun. Kill some stuff, get maybe 2 or 3 back from that, then use PoD and boom, back up to full for the next spell. You should be able to throw dice at all of your spells. Its legit, try it out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1787596.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1787596.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts bsb. You loose one or two due to a lucky bolt thrower or cannon ball and all of a sudden that big points sink can't deny rank bonuses.

The bsb should be in one of the warrior blocks (give them banner of murder or banner of Nargalyte +1CR and unbreakable really keeps that one block of warriors around).

I agree with Vulcan that the Corsairs is where you want your lvl 2, not with Dark Riders.

I would also spring for some sort of Ward Save on the lvl 4. You need some way to protect her due to TLOS, as well as Miscasts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to specific lores, I personally prefer a mix of Dark and Metal. I've tried death and have found that the short ranges really can be a hassle. Shadow is another possibility (which I will be trying out in my next game).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1787901.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1787901.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts imo.

I quite like the idea of a large unit of Cold Ones, it is a bit of a putting your eggs in one basket but in this case the eggs are deadly and could cause damage if they get into combat reletavely unscathed, though watch out, this unit would attract a lot of fire.

I would also get rid of one unit of dark riders, and as others have said put one of your sorceresses in the corsairs, or even better imo, the Repeater Xbowmen. Dark riders just aren't as good anymore.

I would also drop one unit of 15 warriors and, along with the points dropped from the Dark Riders, get a more elite CC unit, executioners or Black guard, to fend off some of the more elite enemy units, your Cold ones cant do everything.

As for lores for your sorcesresses i'd take Shadow for your lvl4 and either Metal or Death for your lvl2.

Talking of sorceresses give your lvl4 the pendant of khaeleth, its a must have imo, a sorceress without one is like a cold one without teeth

A good start though ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1787957.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1787957.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1788620.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1788620.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
Master- BSB
-Lance, Heavy Armor, Shield, SDC
-Cold One
-Hydra Banner

S. Sorceress- Lvl 4
-Dark Steed
- Tome of the Furion, Pendant of Kaeleth
-Lore of Shadow with Miasma, with both weaken strength and toughness, Pendeloum, and Mind Razor augment.

3x Repeater Crossbows-20
-Standard

His list was something like...
Lvl 4 Archmage with book of hoeth and steed
10 silver helm
15 Sea guard
15 Longbow
5 White Lion
Lion Chariot
Bolt Thrower

The first two turns was shooting and hurling magic at eachother. Then 3rd turn he failed his charge with the silver helms with Archmage which resulted in me charging him with my Deadly Basket of Eggs (CoK's and Master) which whipped them out, I suffered 3 wounds from him and saved them. I then assaulted his Sea Guard and lost 1 Cok. Reformed and charged Bow Elves in tun 4 but lost 4 Cok's from shooting before charge. Annihalted the Bow Elves and massacred into the Lion Chariot. I was then assaulted in turn by the small White Lion Unit. No Cok's died and I killed everyone else. My CoK Hammer unit single handidly whiped out his army (aside from his bolt thrower) and survived. Crossbowmen were usualy just out of range and were always playing catch up. At turn 5 he only had one of the crew of the bolt thrower left! I lost 7 Cok's from masses of fire and magic all through the game.

Overall. Magic was sub par and imo, Shadow magic is best used in larger games or supporting weak cc units.

Crossbows needed to be closer to be effective (partly due to my opponent).

CoK's performed up to my expectations and worked out perfectly and they didnt go stupid even once!


Gonna have to rework the 2000pt list and fine tune it!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1788803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1788803.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts lvl 2 sorceress and give the xbows shields for starters.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1788806.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1788806.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts
Casper wrote:Master + 10 CoK is going to run you close to 400 points...you could get another hydra and some elite infantry for that much. If you want 10 CoK run them as 2 groups of 5 and set one up on each flank. That way you can have more tactical flexibility in your list.


Actually it cost 568pts for the master and 11 CoK's with the upgrades..... Although, they did wipe out an army and lost half their number

Dam..... Can't think of how to fill the rest of the list I am workin on.....

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1788820.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1788820.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts
When you play against lots of warmachines what do you use to hunt them? Also what else do you think they will shoot besides you CoK?
I would say Harpies or Dark Riders for hunting, a hydra would be another large target that can cause damage.

What happens when you lvl 4 blows herself up or fails to cast?
A lvl 2 fills that role

When your Xbows get into combat what can help them out?
I would add a musician and shields. Blocks of Spearmen, Corsairs or Elite Infantry to hold the flanks would be useful.

How can you boost the output of your deadly basket of eggs?
Cauldron of Blood.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1789616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1789616.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
I disagree that magic is sub-par, though. My first few games in 8th Ed. I have tried out a Lv 4 accompanied by a Lv 2, Fire and Shadow respectively, and it has been quite nasty.

- Blackbone

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1789997.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1789997.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts

10 Cold ones does sound fun and i was thinking of getting them anyway, though you've planted the idea of a BSB with hydra banner in my mind, and Casper has made me look at the CoB, something i ignored for some reason before.

There is no stopping the Scythes of Naggaroth now! Mwahahahaha! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1791154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1791154.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts
Casper wrote:Well what else do you own? Thats usually where I start. But here are some more things to consider.

When you play against lots of warmachines what do you use to hunt them? Also what else do you think they will shoot besides you CoK?
I would say Harpies or Dark Riders for hunting, a hydra would be another large target that can cause damage.

What happens when you lvl 4 blows herself up or fails to cast?
A lvl 2 fills that role

When your Xbows get into combat what can help them out?
I would add a musician and shields. Blocks of Spearmen, Corsairs or Elite Infantry to hold the flanks would be useful.

How can you boost the output of your deadly basket of eggs?
Cauldron of Blood.


Ahhh.... The CoB.... that was part of the original list but was replaced for the much needed Lvl 4 S. Sorceress. It was a deadly combination, 27 S6 and 12 S4 cc attacks that re-roll to hit. Beye-bye WoC !!!!

These are all alot of good questions Casper, but the major problems I am running into head on is the lack of pts....... The CoK's Hammer price is in the neighborhood of 550pts !!!! A quarter of my pts is used already and I want to keep this unit as it is already been declared my signature unit at my flgs. The DE players are starting to copy it due to its destructiveness. Their downfall is the weakness to War Machines and heavy damage magic.

I am dropping my my Dark Steeds on the sorcerers and having them walk with RHB Corsairs and Warriors.

The War Hydra is a fun choice and I am definetly taking one. 7 S5 + D6 Thunderstomp attacks with the optional 2D6 Breath Weapons hits in CC followed up with 6 S3 AP hits from hanclers all with re-roll misses. Fist fulls of death !!!!!!

I am wanting to put a lvl 2 in the mix but it is already stressing my point limit for 2000. I will get back to the rest of the comments, but I need some time to ponder your advice and finish the list.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1791452.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1791452.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
Dark Riders are terrible. It seems you're putting a sorc. in each unit of 5 dark riders.

That comes to 110 points for 5 wounds, T3, 5+ armor save.
Only takes one smattering of tiny shooting to reduce that unit enough that she no longer gets Look Out Mam or runs away in fear.

It's no threat assaulting anyone and only has 5 bows.

For 110 you could get 11 RXBs. That's 11 bows, 11 ablative wounds, and 6 wounds taken before losing look out sir, unlike the 1 wound taken for DR.

Since you're already fielding two squads of 10 Xbows, you could throw a sorceress on foot into each one of those.

That'd save you 244 points, which is equal to a unit of 32-33 warriors! With nothing really lost.

DR cost more than a war machine and accomplish a lot less. The war machine is T6-10 to shooting, can actually do damage, and grapeshot can blow DR away instantly.

Cut those DR might give points that for Cauldron of Blood (which will accomplish way more with 5+ ward save buff, +1 attack, and KB buff)

Alternative that'd be able to deal with war machines better - 13-14 Shades with AHW, maybe champions. They can show up 12" away from the cannon, shoot a lot more, hit more with their BS5, and are at least as good in combat.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1794585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1794585.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts DE.

Im a still trying to get a list made but I keep running into a mind block right at the last 340pts and its making me pretty annoyed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
ALRIGHT! I finally have it done. Now, here it is....

Master-BSB (Same Build as previous)

Supreme Sorcerss- lvl 4
-Tome of Furion, Pendant

Sorcerss- lvl 2

Repeater Crossbowmen-19
-Standard, Muscian
-Shields

Repeater Crossbowmen- 10
-Standard

Corsairs- 15
-Full Command w/ Frenzy Banner
-Extra Hand Weapon

Corsairs-10
-Standard
-RHB

Warriors-20
-Full Command
-Shields

Cold One Knights- 11
-Full Command w/ Ring of Hotek on Dread Knight

This is it and as a moment of madness overtook me, I went off and added an extra 500 for a 2500 list...

Dreadlord
-Executioners Axe
-Heavy Armor, SDC

Assasin
-Rune of Khaine, Dark Venom

+ 20 warriors on pre-existing squad
-Shields
-Extra Hand Weapon

The Assasin would go with the CC Corsairs and the Dread Lord would be with the Warriors for an extra hell of a punch. I will get back to explaining, but I need to get going.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1803636.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1803636.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
Any advice from the grizzled veterans of the Wargamming World?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1809892.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1809892.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1818152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1818152.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts lvl 2 than the lvl 4.

Also you should consider the Focus Familiar for the lvl 4 to give the extra 6 inch range for spells.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1818764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1818764.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
I recently battled a WoC, we shook hands in the 4th turn and he said good game. He did this due to the fact that over 80% of his army was dead and I had only lost my CC Corsairs and a few warriors in 2000pts.

The Hydra was insane and wiped out three units on its own (1 Warhound unit and 2 15man Warriors). Everything else performed fantasticaly and was deadly! It was a quick game and my opponent learned to fear the Hydra!

My extra 500pts I added feel to be spent in the entirely wrong way and I wpould like some addvice on how to properly spend them. I need a way to use it to either strengthen a certain area or just continue to even it out. Whats your call on this everyone?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1828355.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1828355.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts DE army doesn't have at least one.

I would then invest in shades, at least 2 units (of however many you can get). I would give them xtra hand weapons and have them scout to decent locations near war machines. That way you will be charging them on turn 2 (if you go first they can't charge) at the latest.

The Assassin can hide in numerous places, with your build i would put him in one of the larger blocks.

I personally do not like the venom blade because there are ways to ignore the multiple wounds.

Other builds:
Assassin - xtra hand wep, manbane, rune of khaine - for RnF killing
Assassin - xtra hand wep, black lotus, rune of khaine and touch of death (rune of khaine can be removed to make it cheaper) - for character killing]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1832673.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1832673.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts entire enemy unit... or 'step up' will kill them.

Personally, I think the Rending Star build is the only one that is still worth the points. Everything else will just die when the enemy gets to strike back.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1834133.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1834133.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
I scapped the extra 500 and I am going to rework it when I get home. the extra 20 warriors is gonna stay and I will drop the rhb corsairs for something better..... Second War Hydra maybe, those things are performing amazingly. maybe a unit of Executioners, Black Guard or Shades. I will give you guys an idea of how many points I will have to spend later today. still would appreciate anny suggestios]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1835453.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1835453.page GMT Re:Dark Elves- 2000pts
In previous editions, if you killed a model in the front rank before it attacked, the unit lost that attack. If you killed EVERY model in the front rank, the unit couldn't attack at all (barring spears and special rules and what-not).

In 8E, back ranks 'step up' to attack on the turn front rank models are killed, so they get to attack back.


The actual rule involved is the one that states 'all casualties are removed from the back rank' with no qualifiers for lost attacks.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1836415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1836415.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
Supreme Sorceress- lvl 4- 330pts
-Lore of Death- 4 spells
-Pendant of Kaeleth and Power Scroll

The idea is to hopefully roll the Purple Sun which is a 2/3 chance. I will then need a bit of power dice to pull it off. Cast it on a 25+ while using the Power Scroll which makes any double a IF/MC and the spell has a good chance of going off without the enemy dispelling it. Then the rest everyone knows, loads of destruction albeit with alot of "If's". If it does go off, I generaly make 12 Power dice of the enemy casualties.

Just the fun thought of the day inspired by a oment of madness.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1841653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1841653.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
I am also becoming disapointed in the effectiveness of my Repeater Crossbowmen. They can barely kill anything. I believe my pts can be better spent elsewhere. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1862624.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1862624.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
I think Repeater Crossbowmen are pretty amazing to be honest. A simple unit of 10, in a 5x2 formation can unleash 20 shots a turn, and it only costs 100pts, or 110 if you give them shields. I'd give them time, they always work well for me ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1862682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1862682.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts Power scroll is any double = IF+miscast.

Throw 7 dice. 100% chance to IF unless other forces are in play e.g Slann's remove 6's etc.
(this removes the odds that even with 10 dice you still might not roll a double 6)

you just need to roll a 7 for powerdice (or hopefully channel up to 7)
and have the spell. Then wreck havoc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1863117.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1863117.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
Eldar Own wrote:I think the main problem with running three hydras is that a lot of people won't like you for it, and see it as over competetive. Two should be ok, and one is absoloutly fine.

I think Repeater Crossbowmen are pretty amazing to be honest. A simple unit of 10, in a 5x2 formation can unleash 20 shots a turn, and it only costs 100pts, or 110 if you give them shields. I'd give them time, they always work well for me


True... I just love Hydras in general next to Dragons, and the fact that they work very well for me spawned the idea of three.

Well, even in my first actual 8th Ed. battle I took 3 units of 20 Crossbows and they killed barely anyything. thats 120 shots per turn! his High Elf Archers unit of 15 killed just as much! I look back at and think that the dice gods hated the notion of that many crossbows that they gave me and my dice the big Screw You. I say this in humor because the match was a massacre or do they only call it a major victory? My CoK's won me the battle causing about 85% of the opponents casaulties. In my new list im considering dropping the extra unit of 10 for another handfull of warriors and only keeping the unit of 19 with the banner and muso.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1866273.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1866273.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts BRB page 135)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1867232.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1867232.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
HoverBoy wrote:Three war hydras are illegal in a list of less than 3000 points due to the duplicate choices rule (BRB page 135)


Dam.... You are absolutely correct. Well, I have to re-do the list again. Thanks for catching that Hover Boy! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1868536.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1868536.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts Better to find out here than on the table ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1868545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1868545.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1870309.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1870309.page GMT Dark Elves- 2000pts
Here it goes......!

-Dreadlord- 279pts
Sword of Bloodlust, Ring of Darkness
Shield, Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak
Cold One

-Supreme Sorceress- Lvl 4- 281pts
Pendant of Kaeleth

-Master- BSB- 214pts
Hydra Banner
Lance, Shield, Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak
Cold One

-Sorceress- Lvl 2- 170pts
Tome of Furion

-Repeater Crossbowmen- 19- 224pts
Standard, Muso
Shields

-Warriors- 40- 295pts
Full Command
Shields

-Warriors- 40- 295pts
Full Command
Shields

-Corsairs- 15- 200prs
Full Command
Sea Serpent Standard

-Cold One Knights- 11- 362pts
Full Command
Ring of Hotek

War Hydra- 175pts

War Hydra- 175pts]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1901369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/307453/1901369.page GMT