<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Politics, Greed and the status quo."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/54.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Spinning off from my thread about the BBC, Cameron and Murdoch, I wanted to discuss this particular vein in greater depth.

Essentially, what that thread about is clearly not unique. A great many Politicians (if not all of them) seem all to willing to put special interest groups ahead of their own electorate. Some say 'that's just the way it is' which whilst truthful, to me is not satisfactory.

Why do accept that Politicians will always be largely unaccountable for their shadier dealings? Why don't we as an electorate ever stand up for ourselves? Take the best documented case in recent times, the Westminster Expenses Scandal, where following a press expose, it turned out almost every single Minister was taking the piss when claiming expenses. Many of them tried the 'well everyone does it' excuse, and it didn't wash with the populace. Now we have (allegedly) tighter rules on what can and cannot be claimed, and I think 4(?) MPs (or rather former MPs) now facing criminal charges. So this goes to prove that when motivated, we can take these self serving arseholes to task and change things.

So why stop there? Whether it's a Media Mogul, F1 Supremo, or an Oil Baron, why should we allow them access (particularly when they are non-Citizens of the country) any access at all to our Politicians, let alone secret shady meetings where we are told nothing? Why do we allow this? We know it happens. We know it sucks. We know it's not right. So why don't we say enough is enough, and take measures to put a stop to it?

Where did the balls of the electorate go? Are we truly so emasculated, jaded and apathetic that we can't turn back? I mean look at the general gist of feeling towards political activism. You're either derided as Loony Left, or Far Right Fascist depending upon which side of the fence your view happens to fall. Surely this is just playing into the hands of those taking the piss, as the few who do stand up and make themselves counted are automatically attacked for being fringe!

So Dakka....why do you accept such things?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874349.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874349.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Now we will get the chance to introduce a form of proportional representation. That will make it easier to elect minority parties, in other words it puts more power back in the hands of the electorate, and will allow us to jerk parliament's chain hard.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874360.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874360.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Whether Minority parties get in may not change the shady dealings going on which have little to do with the good of the country.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874368.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874368.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Are you saying that politicians shouldn't be influenced? at all? Subjectively then, how should politicians behave ' in the best interest'?




]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874381.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874381.page GMT Re:Politics, Greed and the status quo.
If it hadn't been exposed to the public, NOTHING would of happened. There was no legislation on the books to sort it, nobody was rebeling against. They all took the stance that because the standards committee said it was ok, they could do it. There is no record of any MP saying, "hold on, this is maybe allowed under parliamentary rules, but it's morally wrong". Nothing, zilch, zippo.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874395.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874395.page GMT Re:Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Wolfstan wrote: There is no record of any MP saying, "hold on, this is maybe allowed under parliamentary rules, but it's morally wrong". Nothing, zilch, zippo.



You sure about that ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8048215.stm

Mr Dunne owns a flat in London but says he believes claiming for it is not "the right thing to do".
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874405.page GMT Re:Politics, Greed and the status quo.
reds8n wrote:
Wolfstan wrote: There is no record of any MP saying, "hold on, this is maybe allowed under parliamentary rules, but it's morally wrong". Nothing, zilch, zippo.



You sure about that ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8048215.stm

Mr Dunne owns a flat in London but says he believes claiming for it is not "the right thing to do".


Just scanned it. From what I saw they didn't claim the expenses, not the same as actually doing something about it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874415.page GMT Re:Politics, Greed and the status quo.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874416.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
But the rest of them have to be taken to task surely?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874677.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874677.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Mr Mystery wrote:So why stop there? Whether it's a Media Mogul, F1 Supremo, or an Oil Baron, why should we allow them access (particularly when they are non-Citizens of the country) any access at all to our Politicians, let alone secret shady meetings where we are told nothing? Why do we allow this? We know it happens. We know it sucks. We know it's not right. So why don't we say enough is enough, and take measures to put a stop to it?


You are of course free to.

It's my personal opinion that that the general apathy amongst the British electorate is due to the fact that our political problems are relatively trifling. It's only when there are actually serious problems (such as the Iraq war) that there is any major outcry. Life is good in Britain. Our politicians are relatively 'clean' compared to those of other countries, even if you only include countries that have at least the pretence of some form of representative democracy. Our travails must look like the most self-indulgent navel-gazing imaginable to someone from say, Zimbabwe.

To me, the suggestion that Cameron and Murdoch might have worked out some deal that exchanges favourable media coverage for policies he probably would have enacted anyway isn't ideal. But neither is it the end of the world. I actually consider it a smart move. What does Cameron lose in that deal? It's likely that New Labour also worked out a similar deal, especially when you consider the fact that they had Campbell on board. Again, smart move.

Meh, maybe I'm just evil.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874830.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
It shouldn't happen. Why tolerate 'a little' corruption, when we could push to eradicate it totally? how long before a little becomes a lot? Why not a zero tolerance stance from the general populace?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874915.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1874915.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Mr Mystery wrote:Again matey, that's the opinion I'm challenging on of 'it happens'.

It shouldn't happen. Why tolerate 'a little' corruption, when we could push to eradicate it totally? how long before a little becomes a lot? Why not a zero tolerance stance from the general populace?


What is zero tolerance when it relates to influences over members of Parliment and the government as a whole? ALL politicians are influenced and not just by brown envelopes full of money, Their daily life influences them, their friends and family influence them, colleagues influence them, their upbringing, their beliefs, they all have agendas based upon what they want to see happen...just like the rest of the population.

Heaven forbid that the voting public should ever influence governmental policy...oh....wait...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1875451.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1875451.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
But the core of the matter remains. Politicians continue to scratch backs in the hope of further political and/or media favours, and it has to stop.

I ask again, why should a non-UK Citizen, that is not a foreign dignitary or Politician be allowed any access to OUR Government? Let alone that such meetings should be kept secret? When you are an elected representative of the British people, you should forgo such things as meeting these people, even if they are friends without having to give an account. No secrets = fewer lies. Simple as.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1875548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1875548.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Seriously. I'm not even gonna get into a massive debate, i presume your young and idealistic. this is the real world. what can we do? march? shout and make banners? storm parliament with torches?

it does nothing mate. just get on with your life, as alb says, its not so bad. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1875618.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1875618.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
In Britain, we have the right to chuck out an incumbent Government. We can all abstain from voting, preventing a new Government forming. There are innumerable ways we can make our presence and collective will felt (if indeed it is a collective will, therein lying the problem).

Nothing personal skip, but it's people like you and Alba who merely shrug and accept the unacceptable that allow it to perpetuate. Make a damned stand. I gather you're a military man? How does it sit with you that your brothers in arms are being sent to their deaths for purely political reasons, rather than the betterment of mankind?

And you're right in one regard, it's not so bad. But it sure ain't right. I do count myself very lucky to live in Britain, a very stable prosperous nation, but that is no reason to accept any flaw. I would make Britain better with this.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1875653.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1875653.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Mr Mystery wrote:
Nothing personal skip, but it's people like you and Alba who merely shrug and accept the unacceptable that allow it to perpetuate. Make a damned stand.


Simply because you find something to be unacceptable it does not follow that the thing is intrinsically unacceptable. The people that choose not to dissent are in fact making a stand against those that choose to do so.

You need to be very careful to avoid falling into an argument from rightness that cannot see legitimacy in the perspectives of others.

Mr Mystery wrote:
How does it sit with you that your brothers in arms are being sent to their deaths for purely political reasons, rather than the betterment of mankind?


All war is predicated on politics.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876058.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876058.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
'Do as I say, or I'll send people to go kill you. I won't do it myself, I'm not that daft. But I'll make sure you die regardless'.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876137.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876137.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Mr Mystery wrote:Which makes it all the more pointless.

'Do as I say, or I'll send people to go kill you. I won't do it myself, I'm not that daft. But I'll make sure you die regardless'.



Why is that pointless? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876140.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876140.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Is there a place for physical force? Yes.

But when a Government does it purely for financial reasons, it's not worth the price. Ever.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876152.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Regardless, almost all wars have been about securing prosperity for the aggressors; generally through the acquisition of territory. Maybe you don't feel that's worthwhile, but since you live in a Western democracy I'm guessing you've never really experienced want, or the threat of loss.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876179.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876179.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
And you are right. As I've said before, I am indeed very lucky to live in a pretty stable country, but even so, to not stand against that which drags us down to my mind is unforgivable. Why not lead through example, rather than punishment?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876190.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876190.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Mr Mystery wrote:Wrong. To expend the life of another human being, just to line the pockets of you or your supporter is indeed pointless. What price life? I don't kick Dogs, I leave Cats alone. I respect wildlife and it's habitat. Why not the same to humans?


So many things are odd in that sentence. First, you're presuming that the only thing being derived from the exercise of violence is economic profit; that may be the 'purpose' of war in many cases, but not everyone fights for that purpose as a matter of course. Second, you appear to have ignored my explanation of 'pointless' in order to restate your original poiint without any explanation. You're basically saying that its pointless because you say it is, which is nonsense. Third, you're presuming that moral arguments can be wrong, or right in an objective sense. They can't be, they can only be logical, or illogical in an objective sense; at least until neuroscience allows us to posit otherwise.

Mr Mystery wrote:
And you are right. As I've said before, I am indeed very lucky to live in a pretty stable country, but even so, to not stand against that which drags us down to my mind is unforgivable.


Its good to know that self-righteousness is still alive and well. You are not the moral arbiter of the world, and your judgments regarding what does or does not 'drag us down' need not be accepted by others.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876228.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Then I say you are a cretain beneath contempt. We have the power to change this world for the better, but will not take it to task.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876239.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876239.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Mr Mystery wrote:So you say it is acceptable that those in power abuse their position to line their pockets, and those of the few they favour?


No, that isn't what I said. You shouldn't infer that someone disagrees with you because they think your argument is poor.

Mr Mystery wrote:
Then I say you are a cretain beneath contempt. We have the power to change this world for the better, but will not take it to task.


What if you I don't agree with you that we have the power to change the world in the manner which you have specified? What if I don't agree with you regarding what constitutes abuse? What if I think to pretend that 'abuse' is something that can be clearly defined is naive? What if I think that, in the attempt to rid society of 'abuse' we will often commit comparable abuses?

From my perspective you simply haven't looked at enough of the variables present in this situation, and have instead chosen to play a rhetorical harp in accordance with a shallow consideration of morality and purpose.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876271.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Or perhaps your countries elected leader does a shady deal impacting negatively on your life? Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line at their general lack of accountability.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876280.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Mr Mystery wrote:So a World Leader having 'secret' meetings with someone who, despite being a non-resident and not part of his electorate, is perfectly acceptable?


Yes, why do you think that it's unacceptable?

Mr Mystery wrote:
Or perhaps your countries elected leader does a shady deal impacting negatively on your life? Where do you draw the line?


How do you we define what is, and is not a 'shady deal'?

Mr Mystery wrote:
I draw the line at their general lack of accountability.


They are popularly elected, so they are accountable. Its simply that the majority of people present in the electorate do not agree with you. Too bad.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876300.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876300.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
So you honestly have NO qualms about your countries leader having totally secretive meetings with someone not even involved in Politics directly, especially when said Leader then makes decisions very much benefitting said person? You don't see the conflict of interests to the potential deteriment of their electorate? I have to ask....are you thick or something?

I don't expect or demand people to agree with the exact specifics of the event that moved me to action, but that such things are possible, and have been done now, in the past, and could be continued into the future. I have no Political agenda beyond forcing the elected representatives to be there for their people, NOT fringe interest groups on the make.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876317.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876317.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Mr Mystery wrote:Wrong wrong wrong. Those in power have 'safe' seats. To quote Blackadder, the sort of place where 'stick a blue/red/yellow rosette on a hatstand and they'd vote for it.


All the research devoted to political campaigns, elections, platforms, and everything else surrounding the apparatus seems to disagree.

Mr Mystery wrote:
So you honestly have NO qualms about your countries leader having totally secretive meetings with someone not even involved in Politics directly, especially when said Leader then makes decisions very much benefitting said person? You don't see the conflict of interests to the potential deteriment of their electorate? I have to ask....are you thick or something?


That's not what you asked. You asked if I have a problem with secret meetings. The answer to that question is no. The question you are now posing, "Do you have a problem with secret meeting that are followed by controversial political decisions" is something I would answer with not necessarily. The latter article would inspire me to research the facts surrounding the contentious issue in order to determine if the any factors outside that which we expect to be relevant played a significant role in the choice made.

Again, it appears as though you are deliberately ignoring variables in order to make the process of forming an opinion easier for yourself. I consider that to be incredibly lazy, and far more detrimental to the electorate than political corruption; particularly given that it opens you to easy control, and the sort of Nietzschean abyss gazing that you exhibit below.

Mr Mystery wrote:
I don't expect or demand people to agree with the exact specifics of the event that moved me to action, but that such things are possible, and have been done now, in the past, and could be continued into the future. I have no Political agenda beyond forcing the elected representatives to be there for their people, NOT fringe interest groups on the make.


Interestingly your rhetoric is not consistent with you self-proclaimed position (absolute proclamation regarding moral ambiguities tends to have that effect), its almost as if you're behaving like a politician attempting to force an agenda.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876384.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876384.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876402.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876402.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876413.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876413.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
I want the electorate to take control back.

BTW, since age seems to be an issue, I'm 30.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876419.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876419.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Mr Mystery wrote:WRONG!

I want the electorate to take control back.


Yes, you want the electorate to do what you want, and not what they want. It doesn't matter if that involves taking more control of the state, its still what you want.

Mr Mystery wrote:
BTW, since age seems to be an issue, I'm 30.


No, age isn't an issue at all. I made the argument that you are making now when I was 19.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876436.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876436.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
I do not want the electorate to agree with my specifics, just to stand up and be counted for whatever they believe in. The silent majority/minority days should end, and they allow a pathetic status quo to rein, one where once elected, MPs can essentially do whatever they want for 4 years, without fear of being voted out. This. Is Wrong. Do you not agree?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876451.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876451.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Mr Mystery wrote:And you used it in a demeaning way.


I didn't intend to, but I do feel that your position is simplistic.

Mr Mystery wrote:
I do not want the electorate to agree with my specifics, just to stand up and be counted for whatever they believe in. The silent majority/minority days should end, and they allow a pathetic status quo to rein, one where once elected,


Indifference is created by a certain set of beliefs, and by being indifferent people are acting in accordance with their beliefs. Again, you want people to do what you want them to do.

Mr Mystery wrote:
MPs can essentially do whatever they want for 4 years, without fear of being voted out. This. Is Wrong. Do you not agree?


No. Representative democracy is what it is because it assumes that the mob is dumb, I agree with this assumption.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876465.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876465.page GMT Politics, Greed and the status quo.
Mr Mystery wrote:In Britain, we have the right to chuck out an incumbent Government. We can all abstain from voting, preventing a new Government forming. There are innumerable ways we can make our presence and collective will felt (if indeed it is a collective will, therein lying the problem).

Cool, do that then. I'll do it too.

Nothing personal skip, but it's people like you and Alba who merely shrug and accept the unacceptable that allow it to perpetuate. Make a damned stand.

Baaa! Yes that's right, I'm just a sheep. Just kidding, actually I'm a shivering peasant living in the fearful shadow of the castle on the hill.



Seriously, this sort of sanctimony is just evidence that you're a naive idealist. Idealism is fine, but don't let it hamstring you. Pragmatism is always the more prudent course of action - change with the facts. What you want is for me to agree that our politicians should be held to superhuman standards of morality and a completely arbitrary code of conduct which you have concocted in your own mind. Well, I'm not going to do that, reason being that I live in the real world. Politics is a dirty business right across the board - it has to be. To gain advantage over an adversary, one must sometimes bend (if not break) the rules. These people aren't dealing in immutable absolute truths, they are human beings seeking to prevail over one another. Of course, I have lines over which I don't think our elected officials should cross, but I recognise that these lines are completely arbitrary and I don't expect everyone to agree with me.

I gather you're a military man? How does it sit with you that your brothers in arms are being sent to their deaths for purely political reasons, rather than the betterment of mankind?

It's emotional appeals like this that make people believe that you are younger than your 30 years, mate.

And you're right in one regard, it's not so bad. But it sure ain't right. I do count myself very lucky to live in Britain, a very stable prosperous nation, but that is no reason to accept any flaw. I would make Britain better with this.

And the BNP would 'make Britain better' by offering non-white immigrants the opportunity to 'go home'. And they REALLY believe it! TAKE A STAND MAN!



Automatically Appended Next Post:
dogma wrote:
Mr Mystery wrote:And you used it in a demeaning way.


I didn't intend to, but I do feel that your position is simplistic.

To be fair, he can't really complain - he's already flat out called you a 'cretain' (which I can only assume means 'cretin') and 'thick'. That's a little bit worse than assuming someone with slightly naive viewpoints is young.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/313709/1876501.page GMT