You call 29 Strength 10 Powefist attacks nothing?

matthc wrote:With 5 attacks hitting, 1/3 will penetrate and 1/6 will glance. That's almost 2 penetrations.

wuestenfux wrote:

matthc wrote:With 5 attacks hitting, 1/3 will penetrate and 1/6 will glance. That's almost 2 penetrations.

Well, with 5 attacks hitting, you'll get 5 out of the six number 1,2,3,4,5,6.
Suppose you get one 6. Then you have S8 + 6 = S14, a glancing hit.

wuestenfux wrote:Okay, so the pf hits are S10.
Still, you get 5 hits in toto, which eventually means 2 penetrating hits. Looks better.
But the enemy might have 2 LRs.

wuestenfux wrote:That's bad news for the Termies.
Maybe the SM army contains a Vindicator or two and when your Deathstar is left in the open, will be targeted by S10 blasts.

matthc wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:That's bad news for the Termies.
Maybe the SM army contains a Vindicator or two and when your Deathstar is left in the open, will be targeted by S10 blasts.

In which case you have 8 fenrisian wolves for alabative wounds and a wolf lord with saga of the bear and a 4+ ,everything else also has a 3+ invulnerable save.

Arctik_Firangi wrote:I'll have to have a crack with my 40 Grey Hunters with Power Fists, dual plasmaguns, Wolf Guard with combi-plasma in each squad, two vindicators and Long Fangs. I could get lucky.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, this time I'd send a Nob Biker unit or two against them, with cybork bodies, eavy armor, power claws, big choppas, all differently equipped.

matthc wrote:Plasma and missile launchers won't do much when nearly everything has an invulnerable save. You take the plasma on the regular thunderwolves and the missile launchers on the lords. If you wanted you could also just take them on the fenrisian wolves.

Those guys in Rhinos?

Because if they are not, they will die pretty quickly.

That's 14 dead marines from the lords alone at initiative 5

matthc wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, this time I'd send a Nob Biker unit or two against them, with cybork bodies, eavy armor, power claws, big choppas, all differently equipped.

You not only have mass 3+ invulnerable saves, but you have 29 Strength 10 powerfist attacks .That's more than 10 failed 5+ invulnerable saves, all of which cause instant death.

wuestenfux wrote:I gonna play my mech Eldar army against them.
This army has to long range support and so only your precious units can take down my tanks in cc.
This would be an interesting game.

wuestenfux wrote:Indeed, the Orks better field a horde.
One can squeeze in 180 Orks in 1750 pts. This is what the German GT heat 1 winner in 2008 did.
Deathstar unit cripple when they get swamped.

Xeonicfront wrote:I'd just shoot them with the rest of my army. You've got your entire points sunk into one giant deathstar unit with minimal troops support, my AT will spend all of 1 turn shooting rhinos before they can switch over to shooting your deathstar with the rest of my force. Libby nullzoning you, Sternguard(with 2x plasmacannon) and tacticals(with plasmacannon) in masse can make a mess of units that rely too heavily on their invulnerable save. Once you get close to my lines I use my rhino wall(that you have nothing to stop outside of CC) to stall you up to gain time, tank shock to clump you up for my blast templates. If you get into CC with a combat squad, I let it die, that you wasting an entire turn killing a 5 man squad with a ludicrously expensive unit. Heaven forbid there be multilevel ruins on the board to hide troops in as well.

Maybe I'm a little jealous that the best deathstar I could field would be hammernators in a land raider with a libby(nullzone).

For on topic I'd guess that the jetbike seer council with rerollable 4++ would be able to tarpit it for quite awhile. For value for points, Lesser Summoned Daemons from the chaos marines book, or Posessed with IoT for the 4+ invulnerable(possessed are a bit rubbish though). Equal points in Death company might give them a run for the money too, or blood talon furiosos.
For that matter, I bet equal points in Zerkers would give them a run for the money, they'd just have to hide in their rhinos that you couldn't pop outside of CC to ensure the charge. How many points is your deathstar and how many berserkers could I get for that?
Actually in the marine book an all bike/speeder army would stand a good chance just because it'd be so hard to catch.

italiaplaya wrote:lots of ork boyz can handle it. my friend runs a pretty similar list with all the TWC. And just the number of attacks im throwing back at them with 2 or 3 boyz squads in assault along with ghaz takes pretty good care of them.

wuestenfux wrote:
On the other hand, a 1500 deathstar combo should be on par with this deathstar.

matthc wrote:I'm not saying it's unbeatable. I'm just saying it isn't easy. Plasma cannons really don't do that much as the base of the model is so big that you really won't hit that many models with them spaced out. If you are even within range with nullzone, that means I'm within 24 inches of you, in which case I'm just going to take the plasma wounds( as you might cause 4 maybe with your cannons) then charge you next turn. Multi-assaulting your rhino wall will basically allow me to wipe out every rhino you have. Then comes the carnage.

The Jetbike seers die in 2 assault phases. Death company is really a waste of points to throw at them as the death company don't get feel no pain against most of the unit anyways. It's nearly a 1500 point deathstar by the way. Even though the berserkers may get the charge they still will only hit at the same time as the lords. Which is still 14 dead berzerkers from the lords alone.

Xeonicfront wrote:

matthc wrote:I'm not saying it's unbeatable. I'm just saying it isn't easy. Plasma cannons really don't do that much as the base of the model is so big that you really won't hit that many models with them spaced out. If you are even within range with nullzone, that means I'm within 24 inches of you, in which case I'm just going to take the plasma wounds( as you might cause 4 maybe with your cannons) then charge you next turn. Multi-assaulting your rhino wall will basically allow me to wipe out every rhino you have. Then comes the carnage.

The Jetbike seers die in 2 assault phases. Death company is really a waste of points to throw at them as the death company don't get feel no pain against most of the unit anyways. It's nearly a 1500 point deathstar by the way. Even though the berserkers may get the charge they still will only hit at the same time as the lords. Which is still 14 dead berzerkers from the lords alone.

My 2k marine list can feed you combat squads all day long, while the guys in the back happily plasma cannon you to death with nullzone support(I can nullzone from inside a backfield rhino!). My point was that a 10 man 1500 pt unit with 2+ and 3+ saves can be brought down by massed firepower relatively easily. And yes, I can feed it rhinos and combat squads(5 bolter marines at first, then sarges and special/heavy weapons as needed. I never claimed it would be an easy fight, just that it was doable because it would boil down to my entire 2k PT army vs a single 10 man unit. It's not like I'm going to lie there and let you multiassault full sternguard squads.
Every time you munch a 5 man squad you'll be open for the rest of my army to shoot you for a turn.

The berzerker list I was thinking of goes like this:

Blood for the Blood god!
Kharn
9 berzerkers with fistychamp and a plasma pistol in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
10 zerkers with fistychamp in a rhino
Predator with lascannonn sponsons

I would honestly like to see your 10 man deathstar chew through 59 berserkers led by kharn. That would be an epic battle.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:Centurian 99 came up with the 8 Crushers kitted out with 3 Heralds of Khorne. All heralds have Juggs, Rending, Unholy Might. Add Skulltaker and the unit comes out to 925 points. To make it fair you could throw another 8 crushers in kitted out for 360. To put it near 1500 you could add another kitted out 8 crushers for 360 more.

The main unit would be 15 or so attacks on the charge at S7.
Skulltaker would be 6 attacks at S6 but 4+ to wound insta kills
The crushers are 32 attacks on charge at S6 with power weapons per 8.

pzbw7z wrote:A Witch Hunter Inquisitor with Divine Pronouncement coupled with a Psyker Battle squad using Weaken Resolve would make one very unhappy bunch of Space Puppies.

It's not a combination one would expect to see normally, but it would make for a fun game.

When the units hit your lines, you probably won't be able to plasma things without hitting your own units, who you have a greater chance of hurting. While the nullzone is in the backfield, I'm assuming your own units are between me and your cannons, in which case I would still get cover. It's also more than just a 10 man units, it's a ten man 30 wound unit. With an 18-24 inch threat range. When I said multi-assault I was also implying that the 4 lords could separate from the main unit (as they are IC) once they get in close. Allocating one lord per 5 man squad allows me to kill far more than 1 squad per turn. More like 5 combat squads per turn. Against the zerker list, you can surround the rhinos so that when they get destroyed and can't emergency disembark they die.

FlingitNow wrote:

When the units hit your lines, you probably won't be able to plasma things without hitting your own units, who you have a greater chance of hurting. While the nullzone is in the backfield, I'm assuming your own units are between me and your cannons, in which case I would still get cover. It's also more than just a 10 man units, it's a ten man 30 wound unit. With an 18-24 inch threat range. When I said multi-assault I was also implying that the 4 lords could separate from the main unit (as they are IC) once they get in close. Allocating one lord per 5 man squad allows me to kill far more than 1 squad per turn. More like 5 combat squads per turn. Against the zerker list, you can surround the rhinos so that when they get destroyed and can't emergency disembark they die.

The army is pretty sick and other than massed Demolishers I'm not sure what would do well against it. Mobile armies could advoid it though and in an objective game I'd fancy Mechdar against it, but dealing with the unit is difficult and as you've said it is also highly mobile itself.

However the above comment had me laughing due to the bolded comments:

Firstly why would you worry about cover in a unit where everything has a 3++ or 4++ save? Cover makes no difference to your unit (except for the Fenrisian ablative wounds).

Secondly with 29 S10 attacks as you keep going on about I beleive it is pretty likely that you'll blow those Rhinos up rather than wreck them and at best you'll be able to surround 2 rhinos before getting assaulted. At best you're looking at 1 unit being destroyed by the surrounding trick but even that is very unlikely.

You also keep talking about asigning wounds where ever you want in CC, which of course you can't do. Those ICs and TWC are separate units on that front.

Also how would it hold up against Termagants in spods with devourers? 3 Units pumping 180 S4 shots into you in 1 turn (that's just 720 points)? Yeah opne unit then gets munched and you get another 120 shots into you. So first turn 90 hits, 30 wounds. That's probably all but 1 or 2 of your fenrisians dead, and probably 2 of the TWC and a wound or 2 off the lords (as a total not each). Now you've got 20 more wounds. Now probably looking at the rest of the TWC going down and it's just your lords left... Just a thought.

If you blow up a transport and the unit inside can't disembark they get destroyed.

FlingitNow wrote:

If you blow up a transport and the unit inside can't disembark they get destroyed.

No only if you wreck the vehicle if it explodes they have the footprint to place their models in...

You are right about assigning the wounds, but you can place the ones you want into base to base with the ones you want. For instance, placing wolves or saga of the bear into base to base with anything with S10. Because the wolves travel with each lord, it's not that hard to do.

That depends on you getting the charge and your opponent being moronic enough to not have his S10 or instagib stuff surrounded in his unit so when you charge he gets to choose where they fight...

You are right about assigning the wounds, but you can place the ones you want into base to base with the ones you want. For instance, placing wolves or saga of the bear into base to base with anything with S10. Because the wolves travel with each lord, it's not that hard to do.

I'll give you the when, but the where is easily dealt with as they have an 18" range and only scatter a maximum of 12". These are just troops choices so a guy could have say 5 such units as his troops choices and still have enough points to build a balanced army (the rest of the points going into Zoanthropes and Devourer totting Flyrants with Hive Commander spares spent on Trygons ). That way he's pretty much guaranteed to get 3 coming at 1 time.

Well you could just set up the calvary surrounded by the rhinos with them blocking line of sight, so that they don't get there shots off. Because your charge range is greater than the shooting range of the gants, you are pretty much guaranteed to get the charge off. With one or two lords per troop you should eat through them until they are dead. Which gets rid of your opponents troops.

It's not like you circle the entire unit. You use the rhinos to form walls and prevent your opponent from going places you want them to. Assuming Zoanthropes are there is also assuming that everything landed perfectly. If the Zoanthropes are in range to shoot the rhinos, then you charge them. Because the HQ's are in the units, you roll 3d6 for difficult terrain and double it. It's not that limiting. Even if things don't work out you are correct, you will probably kill all the wolves, put a wound or two on the thunderwolves and on the lords, but the lords who are the real threat are still alive and next turn you charge nearly everything that you can. Your goal is to take as much as you can handle in 2 assault phases. That way you are not left out in the open.

FlingitNow wrote:

It's not like you circle the entire unit. You use the rhinos to form walls and prevent your opponent from going places you want them to. Assuming Zoanthropes are there is also assuming that everything landed perfectly. If the Zoanthropes are in range to shoot the rhinos, then you charge them. Because the HQ's are in the units, you roll 3d6 for difficult terrain and double it. It's not that limiting. Even if things don't work out you are correct, you will probably kill all the wolves, put a wound or two on the thunderwolves and on the lords, but the lords who are the real threat are still alive and next turn you charge nearly everything that you can. Your goal is to take as much as you can handle in 2 assault phases. That way you are not left out in the open.

You'd assault the Zoanthropes? Good luck with that tactic they are not the threat to your army, that's 360 S4 shots you've taken then before you even start to deal with the threat, given Hive commander actually all 5 units should be on the table by then so assume 3 in turn 2 and the other 2 in turn 3 that's a total of 480 S4 shots your unit has taken BEFORE they've started assaulting my gants. So 80 wounds you've had to deal with (approximately 25 wounds suffered by the unit after the FWs are all dead, and how many wounds was the unit again?). Here's also an interesting one since the FWs are T4 that makes your Lords T4 in combat until at least 1 FW is dead.

Still not sure how you are holing up your entire army in 1 block (lets hope I don't take a Mawloc otherwise your unit is instagibed) and stopping some one from DSing in with drop pods in areas within 18" of you...

Not saying terrain is that limiting just pointing out I'd have to be pretty dumb or you'd have to be very lucky for me not to be able to get the shots off before you can assault me.

FlingitNow wrote:It's actually bang on 1200 points for the troops. I'm not saying it is a great army but it is viable. You'd have to pack as much AT into that final 800 points as you can get your hands on though. Against a mech list you need to pop his transports the turn you arrive so the Termagants can maul his infantry. Which why you'd probably have 9 Zoanthropes also in spods and a Flyrant and that'd probably be your lot. If you cut it down to just 3 units the list would be far more viable and still have enough firepower to maul your 1 squad army.

Remember Synapse really isn't that important anymore to a 'Nid list. Those Termagants just stand and fire at your Wolves which is what you want anyway...

I'm not saying I'd definitely win or it is a big hole in your army. Just saying it is a match up that would cause you problems and isn't a totally 1 dimensional army, like the others suggested to stop you. (9 Leman Russ Demolishers would also give you a headache, but auto-lose to many other types of army).

I know synapse isn't that great but it allows you to sweeping advance the units you charge.

FlingitNow wrote:

I know synapse isn't that great but it allows you to sweeping advance the units you charge.

Against your wolves the ability to sweeping advance is pretty much moot, once you're in combat I'm not surviving to get a chance to run a way and to be honest I'd probably have a greater chance of surviving a sweeping advance roll off than the fearless wounds... It would also mean you're definitely out of assault after you charge so I can shoot you.

Yeah with the big bases those demolishers would struggle to get that many hits. I'd target the ferisians as they're likely to be tighter packed as they are on smaller bases. But good point even 9 demolisher rounds could struggle to put much of a dent in the unit and then next turn they are all dead...

The monoliths get eaten by the 29 Strength 10 powerfists. The destroyers really don't cause that much damage to them. If the Warriors with the lords get charged then the lords will most likely die as well.

that is still 15 S6 AP4 shots going into you...

FlingitNow wrote:

that is still 15 S6 AP4 shots going into you...

Do the maths on that. Trust me that fire power will barely scratch him.

Look at my list I was throwing about 480 S4 shots into the unit to take it out. 15 even at S6 is not a concern. Nor even 61 a major one.

Perfections wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:

that is still 15 S6 AP4 shots going into you...

Do the maths on that. Trust me that fire power will barely scratch him.

Look at my list I was throwing about 480 S4 shots into the unit to take it out. 15 even at S6 is not a concern. Nor even 61 a major one.

Again, as I said, not being able to hit me while I am hitting him is what is going to do it for me...

If the elves can get all 64 bodies (30 banshees, 30 storm guardians, 3 warlocks, yriel) into a doomed death star... it could be interesting, especially since the banshees are guaranteed to go first

akaean wrote:I wonder how an assaulty eldar army would hold against it, with mobs of banshees.

Banshees will always get their attacks, and have counter charge to try to increase the number of attacks they throw out.

I suppose the problem is hitting enough sixes- even with doom support, However, all thigns considered, I think they elves could squeeze in enough cc attacks to make the wolves blush. Especially considering even enhanced stormies would go simo with the lords.

Possibly something like this.

Yriel
Farseer- Doom

3x 10 Banshees- Exarch, Executioner, both powers

3x 10 Storm Guardians + Warlock- Enhance, 2 meltas

5x Wave Serpent- Bright Lance

1x Wave Serpent- scatter laser

So you get the super mobility so the elves can get all their bodies into assault at once, farseer hangs out in a transport and dooms away. If the elves can get all 64 bodies (30 banshees, 30 storm guardians, 3 warlocks, yriel) into a doomed death star... it could be interesting, especially since the banshees are guaranteed to go first

FlingitNow wrote:
Even then I wouldn't say the deathstar was doomed and this army is also pretty one dimensional.

The 30 Banshees and Yriel are going to try to target the 4 wolf lords, and the 30 storm guardians will target the normal thunderwolves (assuming they can).

akaean wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:
Even then I wouldn't say the deathstar was doomed and this army is also pretty one dimensional.

I meant the psychic power

I also think that in terms of "assault eldar" the list isn't too bad. You've got 6 melta guns for heavy tanks, as well as 5 bright lances. Not to mention a lot of warm bodies to throw into assault. You have the speed to catch most lists, and you have an Autarch to play reserve shenanigans if you don't get first turn against things like guard or tau. The list will probably have a lot of problems with green tide, so possibly swapping 2 of the melta squads for flamers would help alleviate this, but I don't think its a super one dimensional list by any means.



At anyrate, the wave serpents never actually need to sit still, they still will be moving 12 inches per turn and as long as the troops disembark before the movement, they can move + fleet + assault all they want. This means you'll always need 6s to hit them. Clever placement of serpents also limits the damage of your charge to one wave serpent filled with storm guardians. Sure it will probably be destroyed, but you won't kill all of the elves inside, and you'll get doomed + charged by everything next turn.

There is also order of operations to consider. The 30 Banshees and Yriel are going to try to target the 4 wolf lords, and the 30 storm guardians will target the normal thunderwolves (assuming they can). That puts 7.5 banshees on each wolf lord, with Yriel's own power weapon attacks hitting as well, if those go down, that knocks out a lot of points and counter attack.

The storm guardians go next at I5, Ws4, and try to clean up the fenresian wolves, and put some damage on the calvery. Essentially it would be all about trying to mitigate the ferocity of the counter attack.