<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
Every time I've seen a primarch idea, they're really cheap, really cool for their powers and gear...

then, they have amazing stats, as in, almost godlike stats of straight 6's [usually]

So, I saw a recent take on one of my ideas.

Statline given was
WS7 BS6 S6 T5 W5 I6 A5 Ld10 Sv 2+ [4+]

Why?
The weapon skill, sure, he'd be awesome at combat, he'd make even the most hardened squealing B look like a child holding a knife to a master swordsmen armed with a bolter [I wasn't sure how this made sense. just go with it.]
The ballistic skill is rediculous, TT is a marksman, he's been skillyfying with snipers since he was a scout. It should've been BS5 really, but I do a retrospective veiw, as I first suggested this.
The strength, the first problem. rediculous. so, it's effectively a relic blade when he has a powersword, and he gets extra attacks with it too. I don't understand why a marine should get better then S5, and the emperor mightn't get S6, it's just not possible for a man of even mutated stature, not to mention it mind feths on the field, and he's not MC.
T5 is rediculous, users only would take this to stop lascannons one'ing them, so he should get eternal warrior instead.
W5 is a maybe, still, then, I can't see any marine being able to withstand so many hits that he doesn't simply slunk to the floor and cry like a baby,
The initiative is a possibility, it's understandable that a marine with such combat prowesse might have heightened reflexes.
The attacks? fine. he deserves a bit of extra hit, considereing I could've taken an assault marine squad for less.
The ld is obvious, as is the armour.

just, whats up with people having this immoveable ideal that marine primarchs are super-supermen.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940381.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940381.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
just, whats up with people having this immoveable ideal that marine primarchs are super-supermen.


Well, Space marines are already super-humans... and the Primarchs are bigger/better/badder than a Space marine. So... a super-super human.

That said... I agree that most statlines for Primarchs tend to be OP. The flipside to that- consider Mephiston. Not an MC, not even a Primarch, but pretty buff stats. Just something to consider.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940397.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do? GW cannon that they're any bigger then a space marine, any badder.

They're not as good as the emperor but better then marines.

why can't they have such overpowering stats. it's just rediculous.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940476.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do? Imho primarchs actually took form of legendary fairy-tale beings in fictional enviroment and because you can read legends about heroes killing dozens, hundreds, thousand enemies...such stats are then fitting.

Others tend to favour logic - sticking with anytime, even in places where it is not necessary. But why not, everyone somehow rolls...

My view of primarchs is like this:

WS:7 BS:5 S:4 T:4 W:4 I6 A:4

As mentionned primarch are NOT monstrous creatures, so they are based on prowess, skill, experience and other abilities - not brute force. If simple guardsman has S3 and enchanced uber benchpresser space marine has S4 - why for[MOD EDIT - Do NOT try and 'work around' the Swear Filter. Thanks!] sake should primarchs have S5 or S6?

WS 7 is IMO ok cuz even some SM captains dont have even 5, yeah I could consider WS:8 but honestly Calgar has 6, is baddas and have seen a lot. BUT if 1 point makes difference between marine and guardsman why another point should not make difference between primarch and most skilled of SM commanders?

BS 5 is ok, yeah sure he has sniper training - but its not how he rolls, its not his specialization, he does not uses it all the time. He SMASHES things, 5 is more than okay...

S4 and T4 was already explained.

W4 - he is still limited by his body - hes not some frikkin incredible hulk or another MC, 4 is okay and makes him really tough.

I6 - experience, skill, prowess - far beyond human limits...

A4 - I always figured even primachs have just 2 hands, 4A makes him dangerous bastard, he cant stop time or attack with teeth alongside his weapons...

Rest is about equipment, but I think special abilities is what makes primarch a primarch. Even Mephiston cannot hold bolter in one hand or cannot shoot while running...here comes real primarch deal!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940496.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
A huge figure came out onto the strategium

Massive and limber, a demi-god manifest


This is a SPACE MARINE making those observations of Horus Lupercal. (Horus Rising, p29)

The Primarchs ARE huge, larger even than Space Marines. They are super-superhumans.

Also, I mentioned Mephiston- he's a "standard" sized Space marine with S6 and T6. It's not unreasonable to think that a Primarch would be similarly gifted.

I don't have the other Horus heresy books handy, but I vaguely recall all of the Primarchs being described as larger than the astartes they command.

---
EDIT

Sanguinius took the battered Astartes helm from Tarvitz's hands and studied it. He towered over the captain [Tarvitz, an Astartes]...


on p35, Dorn has similar descriptors- he looks down on Loken while they are both standing, is 'massive', etc...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940543.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940543.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do? IMHO not actually the best example of standart SM, cuz he managed to sucsessfully undergo something...special. But to adapt your vision into my stat line I could rise S and T to 5 while reducing I to 5 as well.

EDIT:I just figured that I could also rise WS to 8(eldar avatar complex), but thats about all...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940566.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940566.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
And Mephiston is not a standard SM-- but neither are the Primarchs. SM are to Primarchs what the Primarchs are to the Emperor- lesser versions of the figure they are descended from.

Chaplain Cassius from C:SM has T6 (by way of bionics)- and he's "just" a space marine.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940647.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940647.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
Captain Solon wrote:You show me where it says in GW cannon that they're any bigger then a space marine, any badder.


ermm.. every HH novel for starters.

Kurze and Dorn, to name but two, are both shown of being to kill fully armoured marines -- elite ones at that -- with their bare hands. Corax is capable of throwing rocks which decapitate marines. Magnus faces down an Eldar titan and at one point took out an ork Stompa ( might even have been a gargant but lets play safe for the moment) which his witchery. Angron has half a mountain and fortress fall on him -- which crushes normal marines to a pulp -- and clambers out effectively unhurt.

They at least comparable to Demon Princes and/or Greater Demons.

Best rules I've seen suggested for them are in the Tempus Fugitive campaign packs : http://www.tempusfugitives.co.uk/pdf/AotE/TGS%20Chaos%20Edition.pdf]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940676.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940676.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
kartofelkopf wrote:Are we reading the same Blood Angels codex...?


I wonder about the codex as well...

I am probably going to repeat myself here - its about fantasy in another fantasy...actually sci-fi. You are quoting guy who wrote book after getting rights from GW. He has his vison, I have my vision, you have your vision. Dudes who wrote legends about other dudes killing other dudes with lightning from their eyes and thunder from their bottoms ALSO had their visions. This all stuff is about imagination, you like stuff way you see it-but there are rules to stick so we can all make one happy familly. Quoting and relying on one vision is...well, uh, if you worship everything what is written you must like - REALLY love the bible. Its all just stuff dude, I respect your vision, dont neglect the others by dogma... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940694.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
Also, the Black Library is a part of GW- it's not some third-party vendor doing stories in the 40k universe.

So, I'm not trying to impose my "dogma" on others... just pointing out that your vision of 40k primarchs is wrong

And, re: Mephiston- definitely S6 T6. Cassius also T6.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh... S6 T5? lemme check...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1940725.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do? HH book if I am correct that Horus was much larger that any of his space marines. And you have to think as well if the primarchs are no different that normal marines then why create them to begin with? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1941073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1941073.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
For instance, from the 2nd Chaos codex(which i have just dug out of a pile of old books):

Bog standard Chaos Lord:

M WS BS S T W I A LD
4 7 7 5 5 3 7 3 10

He laughs in the face of 5th ed primarchs!

Taking fluff references as well,

What about poor old Sanguinous and his poorly back, broken by a nasty old daemon possibly along these lines.

M WS BS S T W I A LD
6 10 10 8 7 10 8 10 10

Bloodthirster stats.

The assassin that takes on Kurze needs to be pretty beefy too. With decent weapon stats,

what about a better lascannon to punch through pesky landraider armour?
Str 9 dam 2d6 Armour pen 3d6 +9

With the potential AP of a lascannon being 45 how about Land raider Hull armour of 22/20? just to even things up a bit?

How about a termie armour save of 2+ on 2 or maybe 3d6?

Maybe things need to be streamlined a bit eh?


Leave 5th ed for what it is and jump into the older editions for a taste of what life would be like for the primarchs: dead, dying, disappeared or turned into deamon princes.






]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1941407.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1941407.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do? 40K general methinks. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1941423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1941423.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
Also, we have the official stats for Daemon Prince Angron. It bears to reason these aren't substantially higher than his non-daemon form.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1942849.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1942849.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
Leman russ ate normal thousand suns for breakfast at the end of it. Heck, even the SMP who's encased in a statis field because of his wounds is slowly healing!

The primarchs are shown as greater SMs because quite simply they were GODs in their founding. Look at the stories behind Leman Russ, Dorn, Lion el Johnson, Even magnus!

They should be mighty because they ARE]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1942911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1942911.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do? BL novels. How anyone can read anything by BL and come away thinking anything different is beyond me lol.

Sure they might only have 2 hands but it doesn't stand to reason that they should have a (relatively) small number of attacks. As someone already said, Corax pitches small rocks at regular Marines and they punch straight through their necks, coming clean out of the other side. I'm pretty sure at one point he also takes a Lascannon blast to the chest and it merely knocks him over for a bit. Hell he wields a heavy bolter with one hand and also tears the sponsons off tanks!

Having said that, I wouldn't use a Primarch in a regular battle, they are legendary forces of the Imperium and IMO they should remain legend.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1942935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1942935.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
WS 10 BS 4 S 7 T 6 W 4 I 5 A 5 Sv 4++

(Taken from the reference sheet freely available on the GW website, I'm not breaking any laws here.)

For a Primarch to be able to defeat that in a fight, he'd need to have stats far superior to those of a regular Space Marine Chapter Master. This may just be me, but I've always interpreted Mephiston's miraculous change as a transformation from Astartes to something resembling his Primarch - "[h]is gene-seed, dormant for these many long years, had awakened and wrought further changes, granting exceptional strength and vigour." When Calistarius was a mere human, his gene-seed was implanted and changed him into something superior to a human in every way, a Space Marine. After the exceptional event that transformed him into Mephiston took place, his genetic structure was once again improved upon, changing him into something superior to a Space Marine in every way - a Primarch.

So, according to my conspiracy theory at least, Sanguinius would have stats very close to Mephiston's. S and T 6, four wounds and a fair few attacks. Despite his impressive stats, a Primarch with Mephiston's profile would have serious trouble against a Bloodthirster, but we can assume that Sanguinius would have better equipment, giving him a decent Invulnerable save and maybe a point or two of bonus strength from some fancy weapon.

And Sanguinius isn't the strongest of the Primarchs by any means - he was the perfect one, moreso than Fulgrim ever was, a brilliant general, a politician, a level-headed commander, not arrogant despite his immense power and abilities. If you were to stat up, say, Angron, who was entirely focussed on killing, maiming and burning everything in his path, you would get something even stronger than Sanguinius. A Daemon Primarch is even more powerful than the loyalists - they would be superior to a regular marked Daemon Prince in every respect. Mortarion, for example, would have toughness 7 or maybe even 8, FnP, a 2+ save and at least 5 wounds. The Primarchs were designed to be super-superhumans in every respect, and it was thanks to them that the Great Crusade brutally crushed everything in its path, until Horus turned against the Emperor. They all had godly power, and while they were present the fate of the galaxy was determined entirely by their actions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1943150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1943150.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
BTW having two hands means every model should technically get 2 attacks by your logic. Heck 'nids would be scarier with so many of them having 4 or more hands. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1943197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1943197.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
Space marines have 2 hearts and cannot bleed to death. They have a fused ribcage, and pain is more of an annoyance.

The primarchs were infused with the emperors might.

they would have 10 on every stat. If I am not mistaken, some primarchs took on greater daemons.

Weapon skill wise, there is no one better. And when a daemonprince is ws 7, a Primarch is going to be at least 10.

BS wise, Id say 5 is heaps, seeing thats 1 in 6 misses, they were no super duper aims, they used rapid fire weapons to ensure hitting. Bs5 is fine.

toughness would be 7. They are not as tough as a necron god, and lascannons still wound on a 2+, but they are tougher than a carnifex / CASSIUS / mephiston. You must take into account, cassius is a NORMAL marine, with a bit of age. The armour the primarchs wore itself would up their toughness to insane levels, along with their other tech.

Strength wise, the primarchs WERE bigger and better than the space marines. They were the a part of the emperor, and have you seen the size of their swords? (dont think dirty) They would easily have thunder hammers that strike at initative, with 2d6 armour pen because of the nature of their swords (ULTRA power weapons), so strength 8 at least, with 2d6 armour penetration. If kharn can do it, they can.

Initative: They wouldnt have higher ini than an eldar in my believe, but their weaponskill would override their relative slowness, So I would say initiative 7 (matching mephiston...stupid mephiston) which does not outdo eldar.

Attacks: 5 is a good number.

rest is obvious, except I would say a 3++ or even 2++ save in the least, they did have only the most epic protection, and the emperor probably bestowed awesomeness on them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1943450.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1943450.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
Jaon wrote:Sadly, your points are just unagreeable. Have you read much black library? Some do a good job of telling how tough space marines really are.

Space marines have 2 hearts and cannot bleed to death. They have a fused ribcage, and pain is more of an annoyance.

The primarchs were infused with the emperors might.

they would have 10 on every stat. If I am not mistaken, some primarchs took on greater daemons.

Weapon skill wise, there is no one better. And when a daemonprince is ws 7, a Primarch is going to be at least 10.

BS wise, Id say 5 is heaps, seeing thats 1 in 6 misses, they were no super duper aims, they used rapid fire weapons to ensure hitting. Bs5 is fine.

toughness would be 7. They are not as tough as a necron god, and lascannons still wound on a 2+, but they are tougher than a carnifex / CASSIUS / mephiston. You must take into account, cassius is a NORMAL marine, with a bit of age. The armour the primarchs wore itself would up their toughness to insane levels, along with their other tech.

Strength wise, the primarchs WERE bigger and better than the space marines. They were the a part of the emperor, and have you seen the size of their swords? (dont think dirty) They would easily have thunder hammers that strike at initative, with 2d6 armour pen because of the nature of their swords (ULTRA power weapons), so strength 8 at least, with 2d6 armour penetration. If kharn can do it, they can.

Initative: They wouldnt have higher ini than an eldar in my believe, but their weaponskill would override their relative slowness, So I would say initiative 7 (matching mephiston...stupid mephiston) which does not outdo eldar.

Attacks: 5 is a good number.

rest is obvious, except I would say a 3++ or even 2++ save in the least, they did have only the most epic protection, and the emperor probably bestowed awesomeness on them.
QF to the T]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1943570.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1943570.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
(initiative 7 is equivalent to a Phoenix Lord or Yriel the Prince, and it's higher than a friggin' Harlequin)

Mostly just commenting on the contradiction. I don't care about the stats to begin with.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1943608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1943608.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
Jaon wrote:If I am not mistaken, some primarchs took on greater daemons.


Sanguinius picked up a bloodthirster and broke it's back over his knee ontop of the great gate during the seige of the emporers palace. This was even shown in the diorama they did for games day, have a look at the pic in the link, he's just below the red thunderhank gunship at the top

~edit~

Oh, and that's Khan riding on the back of the white rhino coming out the gate ^_^ and I can't remember if the imperial fist guy ontop of the gate was supposed to be dorn.. it has been a rather long time since I saw this thing close up


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1944151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1944151.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1945175.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1945175.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1945235.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1945235.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
Jaon wrote:Sadly, your points are just unagreeable. Have you read much black library? Some do a good job of telling how tough space marines really are.

Space marines have 2 hearts and cannot bleed to death. They have a fused ribcage, and pain is more of an annoyance.


This is where GW goes for rule of cool rather than sense.

Two hearts would make you bleed out faster as it doesn't increase the amount of blood in the body, simply the rate at which it flows. Back up heart? Doesn't work that way, they will need both functioning otherwise they would be having a hear attack.
Fused ribcage? Have fun breathing... OH WAIT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1945303.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1945303.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1945478.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1945478.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1946540.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1946540.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
svendrex wrote:Fluff marine can take on 30 guardsmen and it would be an even fight


I'm not so sure about that. If thirty guardsmen-- including special and heavy weapons that would be in such a platoon-- focused fire on a Marine, that Marine would be toast. And no, Guard isn't so incompetent that this is unbelievable.

Now, if the Marine took them by surprise and charged into close combat before they had a chance to react? Okay, that's a bit more believable. But it's still risky for the Marine, all it takes is one perceptive Guardman and it's all over for him.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1946743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1946743.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do? But, each primarch has different powers.
magnus should have a set of Psychic powers that would make Eldrad ulthran go 'Thats it. i'm. done'.
Leman russ should make tank crews scream in fear as he saws it in half with his chainsword.
Horus should be capable of killing terminators with a look, like he did on the warhammerwiki.
Mortarion should be immune to poison attacks and should carry a scythe that can summon nurgle daemons.
Angron should be able to kill 10 orks in a thirty strong mob, make them run away and overrun in one turn and DO IT 3 TIMES OVER.

Just some suggestions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1951643.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1951643.page GMT Re:Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
I believe one of the reasons for this is their mythical status in canon. You read about Sanguinius walking through radiation fields with no protection, or Angron murdering his way to the top of the pile. When put in perspective though, you see that yes they did great things, but they were 8 foot bio engineered monsters with super healing powers on worlds with regular men. It would be the equivalent of sending Wolverine to a 8th grade karate tournament. Any present Marine could do similar things. There are several stories of a single Chaos Marine ruling an entire world (sometimes a sector)

In addition, the Primarch legends are over 10,000 years old at the time that most tabletop cannon stories take place. Like most stories about real men, you would be hard pressed to find a story thats more then 100 years old without some sort of artistic licence being taken at some point to make the central character appear more heroic.

You also read in Wolfs honor when Ragnar meets members of the 13th company that they thought of Russ as one of them. He was definitely a great man, but not nearly as godlike as the current Wolves have been lead to believe.

You would be wrong to not think of the Primarchs as amazing men in the 40k universe, but to think of them as running around with 8 across the board statelines and the ability to fart thunder that shatters worlds takes away alot of the most interesting things about the 40k canon. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1951715.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1951715.page GMT Space marines. Their primarchs, and why gamers think the way they do?
Good old mythical exaggeration, the Imperium's best weapon!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1951722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/317710/1951722.page GMT