FlingitNow wrote:Mercer is as usual correct that you should go melta or get more lascannons.

However don't underestimate how much of a beat stick Lysander is. He doesn't just make your army worse as Mercer claims (by giving them stubborn which is no where near as useful as combat tactics). He's pretty much the best beat stick in the codex (alongside Calgar). Nullzone will help you against Certain opponents but with 4s to hit you can still fail long before it becomes useful. A Chaplain would probably be more reliable (unless you need the psychic defence), but also has limitations. In a grind fest against his best units (i.e. blood talon dreads) you'd be far happier with Lysander.

Kilgore19d wrote:Don't drop the Siege Shields. I don't know why people are always suggesting that... Granted I usually only upgrade to Siege with left over points. But Siege Shields can make a world of difference in the mobility of your Vindicators. Either make it easier for them to move in and get a shot, or set up a blocking line for squishier vehicles.

But if you do drop them, take Dozer Blades on the Vindicators.

tedurur wrote:People drop them because they are a waste of 5 pts. Dozerblades are just as good really. 1 in 36 is not exactly bad odds

He makes the army stubborn which is cool, however his other ability bolter drill isn't being used. If you look at his profile it's the same as a Captain just with a S10 thunderhammer so not exactly a "beat stick". If you take a Librarian and Chaplain naked you can get both those HQ choices for 200 points, same points as Lysander!

So what if EW is a special rule? By that logic Vulkan is no better than a Captain.

FlingitNow wrote:

He makes the army stubborn which is cool, however his other ability bolter drill isn't being used. If you look at his profile it's the same as a Captain just with a S10 thunderhammer so not exactly a "beat stick". If you take a Librarian and Chaplain naked you can get both those HQ choices for 200 points, same points as Lysander!

How is making your army worse cool? By making them stubborn you are weakening the army. He has two other special abilities bolster defences (which I do often forget about) and the so so bolter drill. No one in their right mind pays 200pts + stubborn in order to get bolter drill (it appears you value bolter drill at about 215 points).

A Terminator Captain with TH/SS is 170 points. People pay 30 points + stubborn for an extra wound, ET and an S10 AP1 Thunderhammer and that is very good value. Then Boltser defences is a bonus on top, sure you have to take stubborn which sucks but for that CC monster it is worth it.

Yes the vanilla Libby and Chaplain are also good value. But that pie plate would have killed both where as Lysander would have laughed it off. Also both can be singled out in CC and killed fairly easily. 3 PF hits would be enough to kill both where as it on average would only do 1 wound to Lysander... Nullzone and liturgies of battle would turn that Hammernator unit into a monster deathstar for 1 turn. Heck by the time the Hammernators strike in that first charge Nullzone and/or Liturgies could be gone. Lysander gives them more hitting power against more types of target (TWs, Soulgrinders, Ironclads etc) and hitting power that stays with them every turn...

Perhaps Lysander was on his last wound and failed his save? We don't know the in's and out's so best not speculate. Can't Lysander be singled out in c.c? Doesn't the Librarian have a 2+/3+ invulnerable like Lysander? Only difference is eternal warrior.

HOw can nullzone and Chaplain be gone first turn when inside a Land Raider? You live the Librarian inside.....

I know what combat tactics do and I know which one I'd rather have, however, you're stubborn thanks to Pedro and Lysander. You don't have combat tactics. Not sure why you're telling me about combat tactics for and then saying in another thread that stuborn sucks yet you're taking it!

Like I said, you're speculating about Lysander. The Librarian wouldn't be vanilla would he with a unit of Terminators?

You can legally leave the Librarian in the transport. Mate you need to check rules as you've got stubborn wrong about taking saves and you can leave I.C's in transports. I don't need to convince you at all.

No, the advantage with Lysander is he has S10 thunder hammer and eternal warrior. My point is he doesn't benefit the army (hardly) or the unit and costs 200 points for maginal benefits, which you think one (stubborn) sucks.