<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
My main concern is that it doesn't seem to compete very well when you compare it against a 2x Flamer squad of PM or CSMs.

Lets look at a few examples. In each example, lets say we get 4 hits per template. That seems fairly average in my mind.

Against IG, Doom Siren = 4 hits = 3.3 wounds = 3.3 dead Guardsmen
Against IG, 2x Flamers = 8 hits = 5.3 wounds = 5.3 dead Guardsmen

Against Orks, Doom Siren = 4 hits = 2.7 wounds = 2.7 deak Orks
Against Orks, 2x Flamers = 8 hits = 4 wounds = 4 dead Orks

Against SM Scouts, Doom Siren = 4 hits = 2.7 wounds = 2.7 dead Scouts
Agaisnt SM Scouts, 2x Flamers = 8 hits = 4 wounds = 2 dead Scouts after 4+ save

Against Marines, Doom Siren = 4 hits = 2.7 wounds = 2.7 dead Marines
Against Marines, 2x Flamers = 8 hits = 4 wounds = 1.3 dead Marines

Against Terminators, Doom Siren = 4 hits = 2.7 wounds = 0.4 dead Terminators
Against Terminators, 2x Flamers = 8 hits = 4 wounds = 0.6 dead Terminators

Considering that the 2x Flamers are cheaper then the Doom Siren, they just seem to be the better all around choice. Now I know I've done this math in a vacuum and haven't accounted for either the Noise Marine's I5 if assaulting or model difference in the various squads due to points but the idea still seems valid. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2014707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2014707.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2014906.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2014906.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
BrotherStynier wrote:My question is, why if you are using Noise Marines do you not have Sonic Blasters and Blastmasters? Considering they are both assault/heavy weapons thats more possible wounds you could be causing.
This. Don't bother with the siren. Just walk up to about 20" and rip em to shreds with sonic blasters next turn. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2014933.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2014933.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
For a chaos squad to have 2 flamers, it's at least 10 models.

Despite their higher expense, 5 noise marines for a suicide doom siren is cheaper than 10 chaos marines.

That being said, the psychic power wind of chaos may be what you're looking for. If it's tzeentch, you can stack warp time and wind of chaos together. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2015889.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2015889.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
scuddman wrote:Inaccurate comparison. If you're using them for doom siren, it's a suicide squad with 5 models.

For a chaos squad to have 2 flamers, it's at least 10 models.

Despite their higher expense, 5 noise marines for a suicide doom siren is cheaper than 10 chaos marines.


Why would you go with a MSU just for the Doom Siren? Any squad that relies on using a Doom Siren is going to either assault or be assaulted the next turn and 5 guys isn't enough to survive that against most units. This means instead you're using 8+ guys guys with a Power Fist/Weapon Champion in a Rhino. That squad comes out to 240+ points or the same as a 2x Flamer/Fist/Rhino CSM squad.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2021380.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2021380.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
With the other Sonic Weapons you'll still get to charge after shooting, and you'll dish out more wounds than if you used the Bolt Pistols on the CSM Squad before charging.

Also you'll pretty much always want a Power Weapon on the Noise Champion other wise you'll be wasting his I5.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2021645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2021645.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2021697.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2021697.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2021728.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2021728.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers pw mbs sonic blstr squad with 4 sonic blstrs and a blst mstr in a rhino with ea and a pm combi plas gun, the squad is a touch expensive at 305 points but it creams 100% of everthing infantry ive come into contact with
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2022447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2022447.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
Tyranic Marta wrote:im a stolid slaanesh player and i find that a good combination, is 6 noises with a champ doom siren pw mbs sonic blstr squad with 4 sonic blstrs and a blst mstr in a rhino with ea and a pm combi plas gun, the squad is a touch expensive at 305 points but it creams 100% of everthing infantry ive come into contact with


That seems really expensive for 6 guys, each model is more expensive then a Terminator but still dies like a normal Marine. I'm glad it works for you but it seems like the entire squad would eat it after a few rapid fire's from Tacticals. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2023393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2023393.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
Tyranic Marta wrote:im a stolid slaanesh player and i find that a good combination, is 6 noises with a champ doom siren pw mbs sonic blstr squad with 4 sonic blstrs and a blst mstr in a rhino with ea and a pm combi plas gun, the squad is a touch expensive at 305 points but it creams 100% of everthing infantry ive come into contact with


Respectfully, why would you put a Siren champ and a Blastmaster in the same squad? They have completely different jobs, one is an up-close mobile unit, while the other is best used from far away.

I also prefer 6-man squads, but I have one team with Blastmaster and 5x Sonic Blasters, which Fearlessly holds a covered objective while spraying out 15 36" Bolter shots and a miniature Battle Cannon every turn. There is simply no better unit for denying a large area to footsloggers.

My second squad uses a Siren/PW Champ, and although the 5 Sonic Blasters aren't truly necessary, I find I usually can't resist. These guys are either mounted in a combi-flamer Rhino and sent after Marines in cover, or held in reserve to counter-charge Marines in Drop Pods; as you can see, I only bother with a Siren at all if I'm expecting to fight Marines. The point is, though, that two separate squads of specialized Noise Marines will probably be more efficient than one big generalist squad.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2023497.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2023497.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
turn 1
the biker lord moves 18 with squad and lash sorc, rhinos move (3 rhinos with noise) pop smoke, pred sits and shoots
(3 lascannons) blit moves and shoots las (usually out of range for pc which i prefer)
sorc lashes infantry squad towards bikers (usually nobs or termies or anything else in the open) bikers charge 6 into combat, lord swings first and massacres the squad with his blissgiver (mark of slaanesh and i rarely roll 1s on the extra d6) if that fails then the sorc hits them with his initiative 6 force weapon (MOS again) and then if really needed the bikers swing at initiative 5 (mos) and then if they are really tough the champ swings with a fist at the end

depending on the army im playing against i usually get either lots of shots at the rhinos / pred and make my cover saves from the smoke or any terrain that happens to be nearby

turn 2
one rhino sits still and blasts with everything, the other two move forward and start laying down fire as well (if in range) the bikers move onto there next target using the same tactics as before, keeping them in combat stops them getting shot at, (as you know csm hqs are quite fragile being only t4 and can be easily id'd) the pred and blit use there respective weapons and usually take out there targets, by this time ive usually cut away most of the armour in a tau or sm legion,

again i get shot at and usually lose one of the lead rhinos at this point (youll notice that i tend to ignore objectives and play as if im going for victory points)

turn three, the bikers by now are running out of targets unless i pop a transport, this is what i attempt to do with the blit + pred, if that fails and they have no targets then i use the meltas on the biker squad if this fails then i charge them in and use the fist / mbs on the hqs to pop trans, the noies at the back continue to rain fire while the remaining lead rhino advances to thier objective if they have one, if not it sits and shoots at the massed infantry (hopefully massed infantry that is if i havent popped any transports then i head behind their transports and hit the back armour with doom siren and blastmaster (this is why i take the doom siren because it has a awsome habit of popping rear armour rhinos / devilfish's,

again ill get shot at and usually take a wound on the blit (sometimes id'd) this is no biggy as my heavy support are usually fillers in this list,

turn 4, by this time most if not all of my boys are in range to start popping the remaining rhinos / transports, once this is done it is a simple matter to deal with the remaining infantry by the end of the turn if needed i can stretch it to 5 turns but i can usually table a 1750 point list by turn 4, the doom sirens in this list are as you can see not often used, however the blastmasters are, if i do however get ousted from my rhinos then i get to join in the melee with a lage group of leathal warriors (ie: 3 hqs 5 bikers and 6-18 noises)

that is why i take doom sirens, because they are cheap in the list and (i mean they are a relitivly small points cost compared to most of the wargear) and they dfeal to infantry and rear armour rhinos / devilfishes like thrs no tommorow

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2024843.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2024843.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
the biker lord moves 18 with squad and lash sorc, rhinos move (3 rhinos with noise) pop smoke, pred sits and shoots
(3 lascannons) blit moves and shoots las (usually out of range for pc which i prefer)
sorc lashes infantry squad towards bikers

You mean the biker lord moves 12", because moving 18" means turbo boosting...and if they do, they can't suddenly charge/lash stuff on turn 1...unless you meant to put that second section in turn 2.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2026445.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2026445.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2028782.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2028782.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
minigun762 wrote:
scuddman wrote:Inaccurate comparison. If you're using them for doom siren, it's a suicide squad with 5 models.

For a chaos squad to have 2 flamers, it's at least 10 models.

Despite their higher expense, 5 noise marines for a suicide doom siren is cheaper than 10 chaos marines.


Why would you go with a MSU just for the Doom Siren? Any squad that relies on using a Doom Siren is going to either assault or be assaulted the next turn and 5 guys isn't enough to survive that against most units. This means instead you're using 8+ guys guys with a Power Fist/Weapon Champion in a Rhino. That squad comes out to 240+ points or the same as a 2x Flamer/Fist/Rhino CSM squad.



I don't agree with this. You see suicide squads all the time in IG. 10 guardsman are a LOT less survivable that close than 5 noise marines. 5 suicide marines with an AP3 flamer are useful, and more importantly is dangerous enough that the enemy has to commit a real unit to dealing with them. I'm not advocating spamming 5 man squads.
But think of the damage 2 5 man ap3 flamers can do. That is a much more reasonable comparison, with benefits and disadvantages to both.

I think if razorbacks could hold 5 man noisemarine squads with ap3 flamers, you'd see noise marines more...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2029149.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2029149.page GMT Re:Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
It must just be a Chaos thing or its an issue with my experience and those I normally talk to but the general consensus is that 5-6 man squads are too small even for Plague Marines. The bare minium is 7 and thats for PMs. Everything else is 8+ with 10 being the norm, so the idea of fielding these tiny units is counter-intuitive to me at this point. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2029415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2029415.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2030063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2030063.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
Tyranic Marta wrote:24 is turbo boost isnt it?....


Anything over 12" and up to 24" is turbo boosting.
18" away from the starting point just gets you the cover save.

So, anything over 12" you can't do anything else but move.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2034863.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2034863.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2036710.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2036710.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers That makes a huge difference in whether or not it works.

For the look of how you wrote it, it sounds like it's all happening turn 1.

You can't move 18" with a bike sorcerer and still lash something and then charge something.
The only thing I can think of in getting it to 'still work' is if that line where you use lash is placed in Turn 2, rather than Turn 1.

Unless you are using TWO lashes in the list, which you did not mention, but it doesn't matter as the Bikers can not move 18" and still charge.
They can move 12" and then charge though.

I'm not being critical to be a jerk, I'm just trying to 'get' your tactic as it looks like it's breaking some rules from the way it's worded/structured.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2038341.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2038341.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2040444.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2040444.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
Tyranic Marta wrote:i would disagree with that, if your feilding 10 man noise marine squads thats a TON of point dissapeared that are unlikely to help as ur poppin out of the top hatch with 2 and the other 8 dont have anything to do, sure if your running into close combat alot then absolutely, but the reason why noise marines have sonic weapons available to them is that they are actually really good, this means you use the blasters and this pumps up the points cost even more, its just not worthit (points wise) to send in 10 man squads


True but then again 10 Sonic Blaster Noise Marines would play differently then 10 guys with a template. First, you don't need a transport since you can move/shoot to full effect. Second, you never want to get close to the enemy because you're not an assault unit, you're a dakka/shooting unit. Just because you don't suck in HtH doesn't mean you should do it unless you have a very strong tactical reason.

But think of the damage 2 5 man ap3 flamers can do. That is a much more reasonable comparison, with benefits and disadvantages to both.

I think if razorbacks could hold 5 man noisemarine squads with ap3 flamers, you'd see noise marines more...


I see where you're coming from. You do get twice the scoring units and twice the firepower of the AP3 flamers. What you're doing though is paying more points for it and giving out alot of potential killpoints. Overall, I'm not sure if its something that Chaos can do really effectively (spamming MSU guys) with the possible expection of Plague Marines due to their increased toughness and ability to take 2 specials. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2040832.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2040832.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2041093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2041093.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
Tyranic Marta wrote: however the fact remains that we have tangented to talking about the merits of Noises rather than the comparisin between flamers and ds's


Yes we have.

Back on topic, after all the discussion I still feel that 2 Flamers are more useful in an all-comers list then a single Doom Siren, all other things being equal. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2042073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2042073.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2043416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2043416.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers
Tyranic Marta wrote:this is true, however for slaan players like me we like to be fluffy


And I fully support that. In my eyes, the owner of that army is the one who is going to pay for it, build and paint it and play with it so it really needs to be what they want it to be. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2043454.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2043454.page GMT Doom Sirens vs 2x Flamers ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2044121.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/321915/2044121.page GMT