<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels
What is a good Eldar counter to that sort of furiously mobile madness? Doesn't seem like you can run from it, and they aren't the most defensive race either... what would a good countering list and/or strategy be? Other than praying to Khaine for help...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2027170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2027170.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels

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Seriously, you can always run away with your fast skimmers, if not, try Night spinners, kill the bikers and jump jumps with that dual DT test]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2027447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2027447.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels

And what makes the DT test dual?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2027523.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2027523.page GMT Re:Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels
If he reserves everything, try to kill them off piecemeal. Don't leave the rear of your vehicles overly exposed, though, or you're just asking for terminators where you don't want them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2027891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2027891.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels

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If he deep strikes everything, as Mahtamori said, kill him off one by one.If you have turn one, try to cover as much ground as possible so you force him to deep strike in a risk or too far away from your butt.
If he deep strike later on then try keeping your guys together and shoot everything that comes close.
Lets say you cant take double DT tests, slowing them down and killing 1/6 of his guys on his own turn AND a chance to pin them is still pretty good


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I have bad word organization, hope you know what I am talking about]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2027995.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2027995.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels
On to the details:

SYNERGY

Many Blood angels builds are a very synergy heavy armies they rely on priests for FNP, if they are taken kill them in melee.

SEER COUNCIL

Take at least one seer council, they are absolute death for dreadnoughts in melee at I5+ S9 in melee they usually kill a dread before it ever strikes. It so bad they often wont even deep strike near you.

CONSIDER YRIEL

ELdraad and Yriel = win. These two have the only poison power weapons in the game! These are perfect for cutting through FNP units, together they should kill around 5 FNP marines every melee phase before they strike and both get rerolled inv saves. Excellent with a seer council Body Guard.

MECH UP

Don't play any ground units, mount everyone and fly around. All the Eldar infantry is generally squishy and poor in melee when compared to BA troops of any kind. This also lets you completely avoid melee by just flying away.

TANK SHOCK AND RAM HO!

Once you mech up you should Tank Shock and Ram (as needed) Tank shocking is very interesting because sometime marines (BLOOD ANGELS) fail, they are usually a 9 morale, sometimes an 8, its really funny when a full assault unit runs off the board with a character in it because of a tank shock. ALWAYS BE SURE TO NEVER TANK SHOCK OVER A MELTAGUN OR A FIST, just run over someone else in the unit, preferably a single model, as only the models you tank shock over can make DOG attacks. Also IF you RAM rhinos you can hit them with S10 attacks and kill them if you go >21 inches, thi can help immobilize an army in objective games, and might be a good tactic to stop a landraider if you had too, few Eldar player make use of it, it always hits, also a great way to wreck pesky landspeeders! Just smash em!

CONSIDER KAMIKAZE DRAGONS

It may be worth it to play 1-2 units of firedragons in a ride, so they can jump out and melta some key thing off the board, like a psychic dreadnought, or a death company dread, or mephiston. You wont want to rely on single shot vehicle mounted lances for that kind of work, your going to want the thing dead, and firedragons do that well. Just remember they are expendable and for big targets only, useing them on a rhino that was free is a waste

NOSPINNERS

Oh and for night spinners, they are a waste of time to own and paint in anything but fluffy casual play, don't bother. That's terrible advice. Compared to the cheap cost and utility of a basic Fire prism there's really no reason to even own the kit...

Good luck!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2028009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2028009.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels

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I totally disagree with you sir, Night Spinners has its own strength, and against things like jump packs they are NOT A WASTE OF TIME.Jump packs can move fast and it could hurt your skimmers severely if they have fists.
Tank shock is a good tactic to use, but ram depends on the situation because you have a high risk hurting your self if you move more than 18,even if you are a wave serpent(you dont get the force field against its strength)
Mech up good...Dragons good...Take mind war against preists,Agustus you shot yourself on the foot with that arguement of taking out preists in melee.
The key is not eldrad, normal seers could take Runes of Warding too.Taking special charactors is the last option you should pick.


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Correct me if you think differently]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2028014.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2028014.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2028187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2028187.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels
If he is using Drop Pods you should be ok, you can play the reserves game and eliminate isolated units with your mobility (you are meched up right?). A Razorback based list will cause you more issues, the amount of firepower he can bring to the table is pretty scary. The key in this case imo is to make sure you hit him (and hit him hard) before he hits you. This means either getting the first turn or again playing a reserves game, you probably need to take out several of his threatening units in your first round of shooting or he can just blast you off the table.

A jump pack based list is imo one of the worst matchups for an Eldar list, they just have no way of stopping that many fast FNP Marines from getting to them. You can't torrent them to death fast enough, Fire Dragons can maybe take out a squad but then get squashed and Prisms don't do much (they have to fire focused shots to get through FNP and small blasts are easy to dodge). Even if you took some of the less common units (for a mech build) which are traditionally good at killing MEQ I doubt you could deal with them, Banshees won't kill enough before they die (leaving aside all the assaulting from Serpent issues) and Reapers won't get through FNP. Your best be would probably be to use Vypers to movement block and slow him down while everything else tries to keep their distance. Also hope for an objectives based mission, your slight mobility advantage comes into play more and he has to leave some units behind to capture objectives in his half of the table.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2028557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2028557.page GMT Re:Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels BA. Their small pie is an overpriced glorified plasma cannon when used against infantry, and their large blast is unimpressive versus FNP MEQ. S5 AP4 large pie is a joke versus FNP BA. It takes 2 fire prisms to make a single S6 AP3 large pie, which doesn't negate FNP. You could go all 3 prisms to go with a S7 AP2 large pie, but 3 small pies would be more effective.

Both sides have unreliable psychic powers so both Eldrad and Mephiston are largely shutdown.

Seer council is a bad idea versus BA. Yes they are great against dreads, and ok against fast mech, but they suck against FNP MEQ. I only say ok because they will always need 6's to hit BA Rhinos and razorbacks in CC. They could singing spear 1 transport to death per turn and run away, but that's hardly impressive for 600 points of pointy eared bastards. The main reason I say they are a bad idea is that they are terrible against BA assault marines.

Example:

9 Seer council 3 with spears against assault marines.

Seer council charges assault marines, eldar go first with 24 attacks: 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 failed armor saves, 1/2 failed FNP=5/54 kill an assault marine=2.2 dead marines. That's about 36 points worth of marine killed by 600 point of seer council.

8 Marines strike back
5 grunts+2 melta guns=12 attacks=1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1/4 failed armor saves=1/16 kill a seer council=0.75 dead seer council, unless fortune gets psychic hooded then increase that number to 1.5
Pfist 2 attacks=1/2 hit 5/6 wound 1/4 failed armor saves=5/48th per swing=10/48th=0.2 dead seer council, or 0.4 if fortune is down.

If fortune is up Eldar win by 1, if it's down it's a tied combat. Worst case scenario is BA fail their leadership and I check, then take 1 more wound from ATSKNF which is probably ignored because of 3+ armor and FNP.

Round 2: A 2nd squad of assault marines jumps in.

Eldar go first, but now only have 15 attacks resulting in 1.4 dead marines

The 2nd assault marine squad charges with 25 attacks.

1/2 hit 2/3 wound 1/4 fail invo saves=1/12 attacks kill an eldar=2 dead eldar, 4 if psychic hood stops fortune.
Pfist 3 attacks 5/48 kill=15/48=0.3 more dead eldar, 0.6 if fortune is down.

7 Marines attack from the first squad with 10 more attacks=1/16 to kill a seer=0.6 dead seer, 1.2 dead if fortune is down.
Pfist takes out another 0.4 seers, 0.8 if fortune is down.

Total round 2 casualties.
Eldar kill 1.4 BA
BA kill 3.6 if fortune is up, 7.2 if fortune is down.

Best case scenario for the seer council is a slow meatgrinder they can't win, worst case scenario is 7 of them get slaughtered in a single round of combat because a psychic hood stopped fortune.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2028600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2028600.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels
Against mech? The closest thing to a hard counter for Eldar against mech is fire dragons, but ti's not really a hard counter.

The standard theory these days is that to deal with mech, mech up yourself...preferably with units that can pop tanks. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2029239.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2029239.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels MEQ that have FNP.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2029304.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2029304.page GMT Re:Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels
schadenfreude wrote:Fire Prisms are not that great against BA.

ORLY? When S9 AP2 stops FNP? Its actually the only template in the eldar arsenal that does this...? How is that not good?
schadenfreude wrote:Their small pie is an overpriced glorified plasma cannon when used against infantry,

Which stops FNP, is good versus tanks, forces deep strikes to run instead of shoot, and costs 115 points so is cheaper than a webspinner? Plus Eldraad twin links it! and can do 2 tanks!
schadenfreude wrote:and their large blast is unimpressive versus FNP MEQ. S5 AP4 large pie is a joke versus FNP BA.

So you should play a spinner where thats ALL it can do.

Spinners are junk guys, a fireprism does large blast if you want but it can ALSO HIT high armor and AP2 (even with link 1) all for less points!

schadenfreude wrote:Both sides have unreliable psychic powers so both Eldrad and Mephiston are largely shutdown.

Wrong, runes of warding is seriously better than a hood, as has been stated! Futhermore in mech armies Eldraad just casts out of his ride anyway.

schadenfreude wrote:Seer council is a bad idea versus BA.

ORLY?
schadenfreude wrote:Yes they are great against dreads

Right, my original point.
schadenfreude wrote:and ok against fast mech, but they suck against FNP MEQ.

Uh not after a quick mindwar kills the priest, then theres no more FNP.
schadenfreude wrote:I only say ok because they will always need 6's to hit BA Rhinos and razorbacks in CC.

If they always move fast,.... If they arent immobilized, if they don't disgorge.
schadenfreude wrote:600 points of pointy eared bastards.

Thats a gross overcosted statement, for that you'd get A transport Eldraad, Yriel and the council too. and that unit would anihilate assault marines.
schadenfreude wrote:The main reason I say they are a bad idea is that they are terrible against BA assault marines.

Not really, they have a great way to get rid of FNP with mind war, and because they go first they may kill the FNP IC priest anyway, even without Eldraad and Yriel. Let me correct your bad example...
(Also, I wouldn't play an y spears on a mech seer council, they wont get used and they loose an attack each...)
schadenfreude wrote:Example:

9 Seer council 3 with spears against assault marines.

Seer council charges assault marines, eldar go first with 24 attacks: 2/3 hit, 5/6 wound, 1/3 failed armor saves, 1/2 failed FNP=5/54 kill an assault marine=2.2 dead marines. That's about 36 points worth of marine killed by 600 point of seer council.

8 Marines strike back
5 grunts+2 melta guns=12 attacks=1/2 hit 1/2 wound 1/4 failed armor saves=1/16 kill a seer council=0.75 dead seer council, unless fortune gets psychic hooded then increase that number to 1.5
Pfist 2 attacks=1/2 hit 5/6 wound 1/4 failed armor saves=5/48th per swing=10/48th=0.2 dead seer council, or 0.4 if fortune is down.

If fortune is up Eldar win by 1, if it's down it's a tied combat. Worst case scenario is BA fail their leadership and I check, then take 1 more wound from ATSKNF which is probably ignored because of 3+ armor and FNP.

At this point the (smart) Eldar player will have allocated his hits to the priest in the melee, and killed him already so their is no more FNP, and possibly they got a kill point for it to. Also that's not a 600 point unit. FAIL Eldar win.

schadenfreude wrote:Round 2: A 2nd squad of assault marines jumps in.

Well that's a mighty assumption... A 10 man BA assault squad with fists and gear is 240 points, and add in a jump pack Priest its over 300. A 9 man seer council is much less... 2 BA Assaults squads, with at least 1 priest with a jump pack or in a rhino or whatever is actually the unit that is closer to 600 points... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2035815.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2035815.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels BA since Serpents are faster than BA vehicles.
Fire Dragons, Banshees (vs. doomed enemy units), and Seer Councils, Yriel, and whatnot, are great vs BA.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2035843.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2035843.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels BA as they carry a lot of melta guns, and the assault range is limited to 2" +regular move+ fleet from the access hatch at the start of your turn.

Mind war is good against BA, but it only has a 25% chance of going off with a 50% chance to fail because of psychic hood, and the power only works 50% of the time. Furthermore the priest's unit will almost always be screened by other units giving the priest a cover save (mind war says no armor saves, but cover and invos still apply) Mindwar mathammer leadership 10 v leadership 10

5/36 times it inflicts 1 wound
4/36 times it inflicts 2 wounds
3/36 times it inflicts 3 wounds
2/36 times it inflicts 4 wounds
1/36 times it inflicts 5 wounds

The 50% chance of making a single cover save, and a 25% chance of making 2 cover saves is a big deal since it's going to be a single wound most of the time. The total lethality of a mind war going up against both a psychic hood and cover is going to be less than 20%.

Which brings me to screening. No BA player worth their salt is going to leave priests unscreened and unprotected, they tend to sit in the middle of a BA army. You're going to have to jump right into the middle of the entire BA army to get an assault against the priest, which would leave a seer council exposed to a massive counter assault lead by another priest. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2036439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2036439.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels
schadenfreude wrote:Which brings me to screening. No BA player worth their salt is going to leave priests un-screened and unprotected, they tend to sit in the middle of a BA army. You're going to have to jump right into the middle of the entire BA army to get an assault against the priest, which would leave a seer council exposed to a massive counter assault lead by another priest.


So, while the priests are sitting back cooling their heels, the eldar player can start ripping chunks out of the rest of the army. The assault squads only have an 18" assault range, so as long as you stay 19" away from them, you're good. Keep the council back as a counter charge unit, or to discourage deep-strikers, and use your firepower to tear the rest apart.

Not sure why a BA player would hold back those squads though. Unless they're in combat, the squads are just a waste, so I would think a competent player would try to move them up. Now I can understand screening for a turn, but how long will that screen last under concentrated fire? The fact that the eldar player would only have to do enough damage to kill one unit (per priest usually) to gain an unobstructed line of sight is, from my experience not all that difficult. After all the scree will not be in cover, otherwise why have them there in the first place, and they won't have FNP, as the screen having a priest seems to make this whole argument moot.

So, have your fire prisms, Fire dragons, war walkers, whatever kill 6 marines, and take your mind war shot. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2040784.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2040784.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels BA's, Eldar can ought-fight any unit of theirs using the proper counter. If Sanguinary guard show up, they wouldnt stand a chance against banshees in assault. Same goes for death company, and just make sure you use some psychic powers here and there to strengthen your troops when you need it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2040968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2040968.page GMT Re:Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels HtH without getting shot to pieces?

Also, how do the Eldar players deal with the Storm Raven, with say a DC DN (with the Talons)? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2045917.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2045917.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels
Mmm...Pi wrote:
schadenfreude wrote:Which brings me to screening. No BA player worth their salt is going to leave priests un-screened and unprotected, they tend to sit in the middle of a BA army. You're going to have to jump right into the middle of the entire BA army to get an assault against the priest, which would leave a seer council exposed to a massive counter assault lead by another priest.


So, while the priests are sitting back cooling their heels, the eldar player can start ripping chunks out of the rest of the army. The assault squads only have an 18" assault range, so as long as you stay 19" away from them, you're good. Keep the council back as a counter charge unit, or to discourage deep-strikers, and use your firepower to tear the rest apart.

Not sure why a BA player would hold back those squads though. Unless they're in combat, the squads are just a waste, so I would think a competent player would try to move them up. Now I can understand screening for a turn, but how long will that screen last under concentrated fire? The fact that the eldar player would only have to do enough damage to kill one unit (per priest usually) to gain an unobstructed line of sight is, from my experience not all that difficult. After all the scree will not be in cover, otherwise why have them there in the first place, and they won't have FNP, as the screen having a priest seems to make this whole argument moot.

So, have your fire prisms, Fire dragons, war walkers, whatever kill 6 marines, and take your mind war shot.


Jump spam armies run multiple assault squads that move forward in together with priests. The priest is usually attached to the squad in the rear, and the entire formation will advance every turn.

You need to kill 9 marines to remove the cover save, otherwise the ba player will pull casualties from the center of his screening squad, and 9 fnp meq is a tall order for scatterlaser war walkers or fire prisms. Do the math with fnp involved. Fire dragons can kill them easy, but if they get within 12" of one squad they will be in 18" of another squad.

Banchies do well unless their transport gets popped and splodes wounding all of them on a 3+, and they can't be severly outnumbered ie charging a unit into the middle of 30 assault marines doesn't work. The problem with running 3 units of banchies is that they don't work well against mech in a tournament, ork and ig players will rofl.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2049775.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2049775.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels BA opponent mad when his priest failed that test. Also, S5 on a prism is rather poor considering that you wound most common targets on 3s instead of 2s you'd expect. I do agree though that the small prism blast is far better against blood angles, at least for when they deepstrike, and is definitely better against mech armies. However, the spinner is far better against infantry heavy armies.

As for dealing with blood angels, banshees can be good especially with acrobatic as you can take a charge from BA assault troops and kill a good number before they swing, especially with doom. Yriel can be quite powerful as mentioned as well. Schadenfreude has a point that banshees tend to have issues in a mech environment due to the need for anti tank, bit you may be able to get away with them. Wraithlords can also be good for tying up angels in cc (usually).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2049871.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2049871.page GMT Re:Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels dt!! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2066342.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2066342.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels pw will always ignore the likely FNP. In addition they do get (statistically on average) 5 kills before the angels swing, without exarch or doom. They are quite good at killing angel infantry. What's better is that if angels are taking advantage of their jump packs they can be doomed unlike marines that are in transports.

Jumpy angels are probably the best target in the game for banshees if they are doomed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2066645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2066645.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels
schadenfreude wrote:Banchies

LOL]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2067133.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2067133.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels
Ail-Shan wrote:Of course banshees having pw will always ignore the likely FNP. In addition they do get (statistically on average) 5 kills before the angels swing, without exarch or doom. They are quite good at killing angel infantry. What's better is that if angels are taking advantage of their jump packs they can be doomed unlike marines that are in transports.

Jumpy angels are probably the best target in the game for banshees if they are doomed.


The dynamic between banchies and BA are very interesting. Banchies can chew up doomed assault marines like they were a bunch of grots, or doom can be canceled by a psychic hood followed by a failed fleet roll resulting in the Banchies being completely swarmed by BA. In the end they are slightly better than fire dragons against assault marines, but the mechanics are very similar in that they can both kill most of a marine squad at the risk of being swarmed on the marine's turn.

The key to games against a jump spam army is to realize some units will be optimal at killing them such as banchies or fire dragons, while other units that are normally fantastic such as scatter laser war walkers or dire avengers. In tournament games/games without tailored lists the real challenge is centered around the units that are optimal for killing marines. If the Eldar player needs use them effectively, and the marine player needs to eliminate them. If those units are lost the eldar player will spend the rest of his time smashing a bunch of regular wounds against a wall of FNP.

As far as killing priests go its' the optimal solution, but there is no reliable way to do so. Even mind war only has about a 20% or less of chance of success once you take into account cover saves and psychic hood. The problem with killing priests is that the Eldar player must count on the BA player not having enough priests, poorly deploying his priests, and not properly protecting his priests. That's counting on your opponent to make a mistake, which won't work if both players bring their A game. Capitalizing on an opponents mistakes will win games, but counting on an opponent to make key mistakes will lose a game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2071791.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2071791.page GMT Help! Eldar vs Blood Angels http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2072588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/322640/2072588.page GMT