<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Imperial guard tactic"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Imperial guard tactic IG tactic I havnt tried this out yet but I thought ide find out what you think

2 x heavy weapons teams with 2 x lascannons and 1 mortar each.

All infantry squads with grenade launcher.

So basically Firing grenades and blast weapons until the enemy is thinned down enough.

With lascannons sorting out any tank problems.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074439.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074459.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074459.page GMT Imperial guard tactic http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074508.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074508.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
If your squads could split fire, then yes, it would make sense because your squads could fire at what they needed to. In the game, it just makes more sense to have a squad of lascannons pounding away at tanks all game rather than trying to super flexible and not doing so hot.

Now, as for your other idea of giving grenade launchers to lots of infantry platoons, I like this one. I've always really liked the idea of an all infantry army with lots of mortars and grenades flying over the board. You may not always win (cause enemies will get to those mortar positions quickly) but your first round or two of shooting would be a blast. Literally.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074535.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
I am however going through with the grenade launchers for all approach.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074552.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074552.page GMT Imperial guard tactic AV 10 and threat transports. And as others said: Mixed heavy weapon teams, are a bad idea.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074584.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
L. Wrex

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074690.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074690.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic
Don't mix heavy weapon teams


Im going for a squad of 3 lascannons and 3 mortars]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074701.page GMT Imperial guard tactic ML and an Autocannon. You rarely fire missles at anything that the autocannan cannot hurt armour wise, both do a bang up job against light armour and transports, MC's are also hurt by both and simply switch to frag rockets and you can start hurting infantry. It does work.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074711.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074711.page GMT Imperial guard tactic http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074712.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074712.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074778.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
As for grenade launchers, meh. They are blast lasguns. Whoop-dee-doo. If you want a real anti-infantry weapon, take a flamer. Otherwise, it's points that drain from the rest of your list. Two GLs get you a meltagun, which will likely do you much more, or a pair of meltabombs, or something.

I made several of them back in the day to go with heavy bolters in infantry squads, but after dozens of games of doing literally nothing, I dropped them (along with the heavy bolters), despite a few attempts to reinclude them, they very rarely last more than a few games. They're just crappy weapons, end of.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074924.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2074924.page GMT Imperial guard tactic Gls are pffffffff. Sure their cheap, but their not actually going to be much of a force multiplier. Its a weapon you can have without breaking the budget, but against meq its quite useless. flamers are my prefered choice, remove problem of BS, extra damage, and no skimpy krak option (which isnt actually very useful)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075029.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075029.page GMT Imperial guard tactic GLs makes sense for objective holding squads. I want my two infantry squads to stay alive. That's about it. Shooting a five pt GL is gravy. I certainly dont' want them getting close enough to use a melta or flamer effectively. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075096.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
Polonius wrote:GLs makes sense for objective holding squads. I want my two infantry squads to stay alive. That's about it. Shooting a five pt GL is gravy. I certainly dont' want them getting close enough to use a melta or flamer effectively.


As one whose used that tactic (or tried to) trust me. It does not work. The grenade launcher is simply not strong enough to do anything with one shot. I'd rather take the 3 lasgun shots fro FRFSRF than the one krak grenade shot from the grenade launcher, and the 5 points you just spent on the grenade launcher could easily go to become something more useful elsewhere. A flamer in a squad meant to be out fighting for example. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075115.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075115.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
ChrisWWII wrote:
Polonius wrote:GLs makes sense for objective holding squads. I want my two infantry squads to stay alive. That's about it. Shooting a five pt GL is gravy. I certainly dont' want them getting close enough to use a melta or flamer effectively.


As one whose used that tactic (or tried to) trust me. It does not work. The grenade launcher is simply not strong enough to do anything with one shot. I'd rather take the 3 lasgun shots fro FRFSRF than the one krak grenade shot from the grenade launcher, and the 5 points you just spent on the grenade launcher could easily go to become something more useful elsewhere. A flamer in a squad meant to be out fighting for example.


I've actually run a PCS that all i shot was Krak grenades and had alot of success with it. you don't have to shoot the Frag rounds...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075144.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075144.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
ChrisWWII wrote:
Polonius wrote:GLs makes sense for objective holding squads. I want my two infantry squads to stay alive. That's about it. Shooting a five pt GL is gravy. I certainly dont' want them getting close enough to use a melta or flamer effectively.


As one whose used that tactic (or tried to) trust me. It does not work. The grenade launcher is simply not strong enough to do anything with one shot. I'd rather take the 3 lasgun shots fro FRFSRF than the one krak grenade shot from the grenade launcher, and the 5 points you just spent on the grenade launcher could easily go to become something more useful elsewhere. A flamer in a squad meant to be out fighting for example.


Well, you're making a critical error in your argument: assuming that there is something better I could spend the 5pts on. My list is pretty tight, and there really isn't much I'd rather have. If the GL stuns a rhino every six games, I'm pretty happy with my investment. Near the end of a game, i'd rather have a slim chance of knocking out a vehicle than no chance.

As always, if there is someplace you can better spend those pts, than do so. As for comparing to FRFSRF, the frag grenade only needs to hit 1.5 models on average to score as well as three lasgun shots. Yes, the krak grenade doesn't do as well as three lasgun shots, but it does better than two (firing at long range while stationary) or zero (long range while moving).

So, while I trust that it may not have worked for you, with all due respect I'm going to keep running them as long as I keep winning far more games than I lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
alarmingrick wrote:
ChrisWWII wrote:
Polonius wrote:GLs makes sense for objective holding squads. I want my two infantry squads to stay alive. That's about it. Shooting a five pt GL is gravy. I certainly dont' want them getting close enough to use a melta or flamer effectively.


As one whose used that tactic (or tried to) trust me. It does not work. The grenade launcher is simply not strong enough to do anything with one shot. I'd rather take the 3 lasgun shots fro FRFSRF than the one krak grenade shot from the grenade launcher, and the 5 points you just spent on the grenade launcher could easily go to become something more useful elsewhere. A flamer in a squad meant to be out fighting for example.


I've actually run a PCS that all i shot was Krak grenades and had alot of success with it. you don't have to shoot the Frag rounds...


This is a really fun unit in a footslogging force. its' a lotta dakka for not a lot of points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075166.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic PCS work more with GL just because you can take alot of them, so the volume of fire makes up for the lack of individual power per shot. IS don't have that, so that's why GLs IN Infantry Squads don't work. Massed GLs work much better. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075173.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075173.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
They don't accomplish much, but they cost almost nothing. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075177.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075177.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic
Just because an upgrade is dirt cheap doesn't mean its an autotake. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075181.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic Its just for the difference of having a S6 shot on the move or having nothing. Its much better than the single plasmagun and much more likely to get used than a flamer.
If the infantry is armed for assault, meltas should be the better choice, but if you dont plan to engage anything closer than 12" the grenade launcher is imho the best special weapon available.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075198.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075198.page GMT Imperial guard tactic AC and a GL, so I've already bought a heavy weapon. In my list the GL enjoys a small amount of synergy with the AC.

There are two kinds of cheap upgrades: ones that do very little, but do it often; and those that can do a huge thing, but only rarely. I look at a GL the opposite of how I'd look at, say, Melta Bombs. Bombs come up huge for me on my Platoon commander: knocking out drop pods and being awesome. But that's one game in five. My GLs force saves, shake rhinos, and generally give me a tiny bit of punch a couple times every game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075206.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075206.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
Ailaros wrote:Infantry-based heavy weapons tend to have narrow roles. As they don't overlap well, it means you're designing inefficiency and local ineffectiveness into your list... on purpose.


I agree, so the common consensus is not to mix heavy weapons right?

Ailaros wrote:As for grenade launchers, meh. They are blast lasguns. Whoop-dee-doo.


No. They are blast lasguns 50% of the time. The other 50% they have the potential to penetrate Rhino armour at 24" away. Stop making judgements based on half of the weapon's capabilties.

Ailaros wrote:If you want a real anti-infantry weapon, take a flamer.


The flamer gets a single shot before you are assaulted, you'd best make damn sure you get your positioning right otherwise that's 5pts of waste you've just thrown into your list for a whole lot of 'meh'. As I stated above, a GL has the potential to worry both infantry and armour, at a decent range and at a very good price. You want to sacrifice that for a situational, one-shot weapon? Be my guest.

Ailaros wrote:Otherwise, it's points that drain from the rest of your list. Two GLs get you a meltagun, which will likely do you much more, or a pair of meltabombs, or something.


Depends upon where your putting that meltagun. I give my PIS GLs as they sit on my backfield in Chimeras pumping shots out all game. Why should I pay 100% more points for a gun that won't grant me any more effectiveness? Why should I pay to give my PIS meltabombs when they are hiding in boxes and not assaulting? How is that an effective use of points? Your making gigantic assumptions that I'm putting GLs in...I don't know, Veteran squads or CCSs, when in reality only a fool puts a BS4 to waste like that.

Ailaros wrote:I made several of them back in the day to go with heavy bolters in infantry squads, but after dozens of games of doing literally nothing, I dropped them (along with the heavy bolters), despite a few attempts to reinclude them, they very rarely last more than a few games. They're just crappy weapons, end of.


And here we come to the crux. You seem to pigeon hole weapons and units down one dedicated path time and time again; "They are either A or they are B, they can never, ever perform C as well" and this, I feel, is one of your limitations as a general. You may not see any use in firing a single S6 shot at a Rhino, as you see a GL as a pure anti-infantry weapon and thus choose a flamer as it is a 'better investment of points'. However, I see that single S6 shot as a potential stun on that enemy Rhino, which in turn scuppers my opponent's plans and makes that 5pt investment pay for itself 50x over (points cost for the Rhino + the unit inside).

I feel you make sweeping generalisations on all aspects of the Guard codex and, ultimately, fall short in identifying those select weapons that can perform both roles, if not neccesarily well, but at the very least with a passive chance of securing a favourable outcome.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075438.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075438.page GMT Imperial guard tactic LW. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075447.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075447.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
Polonius wrote:Well, i run my Infantry squads with an AC and a GL, so I've already bought a heavy weapon. In my list the GL enjoys a small amount of synergy with the AC.

There are two kinds of cheap upgrades: ones that do very little, but do it often; and those that can do a huge thing, but only rarely. I look at a GL the opposite of how I'd look at, say, Melta Bombs. Bombs come up huge for me on my Platoon commander: knocking out drop pods and being awesome. But that's one game in five. My GLs force saves, shake rhinos, and generally give me a tiny bit of punch a couple times every game.


I suppose here we've run into a difference that we can't get over. My grenade launchers have almost never done anything worthwhile other than take up 5 points, and be generally useless. Of course, I've labeled my ISs anti infantry, and focus them fully on infantry hunting, with anti transport as things get closer. That's part of why I view a gl as not very good. With a GL you get a one shot chance at maybe stunning that charging Rhino. With an autocannon, you can be stunning (or even destroying) that Rhino from much further away, and I'd rather spend the 5 points from the Grenade Launcher on a vox caster so that my autocannon can twin link, or force re-rolls on cover save. To me that's something that will be making a larger contribution in almost every single game as opposed to melta bombs (major impact in few games) or the launcher (minor impact most games) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075524.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
I mean, I guess I can see it. I dont' want to give up the special weapon in my command squads to take a vox either though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075529.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075529.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
ChrisWWII wrote:
I suppose here we've run into a difference that we can't get over. My grenade launchers have almost never done anything worthwhile other than take up 5 points, and be generally useless. Of course, I've labeled my ISs anti infantry, and focus them fully on infantry hunting, with anti transport as things get closer. That's part of why I view a gl as not very good. With a GL you get a one shot chance at maybe stunning that charging Rhino. With an autocannon, you can be stunning (or even destroying) that Rhino from much further away, and I'd rather spend the 5 points from the Grenade Launcher on a vox caster so that my autocannon can twin link, or force re-rolls on cover save. To me that's something that will be making a larger contribution in almost every single game as opposed to melta bombs (major impact in few games) or the launcher (minor impact most games)


What if your PISs are meched and you can't order them (as per my example above)? That 5pt vox is now doing nothing all game, whilst my 5pt GL can happily shoot out of the hatch with impunity.

As with 99.99% of all aspects in the IG codex; the effectiveness of a single option is dependant upon the constitution of the rest of your list. You can't take a single weapon and view it in a vacuum, as how you employ your special/heavy weapons may very well differ from mine. We can argue about this until the sun burns out, but neither of us will be right or wrong, we just play differently with our respective armies. You place a high value in orders, I personally hardly ever use them; apples and oranges my friend. And this, more than anything else, highlights the major strength in our shared codex; that we can both take vastly different selections and still triumph with them on the table

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2075537.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic
Good debate, everyone. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2076239.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2076239.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I agree, so the common consensus is not to mix heavy weapons right?

Right.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:No. They are blast lasguns 50% of the time. The other 50% they have the potential to penetrate Rhino armour at 24" away. Stop making judgements based on half of the weapon's capabilties.

Fine - GL's are basically just blast lasguns unless you want a 5% chance to stop a rhino (assuming it doesn't just fix itself the next turn) or a 1% chance of stopping a chimera...

Seriously, GL's are terrible against vehicles. The only good use of a krak grenade is instakilling T3 guys, but that's a pretty narrow role.

As compared to a meltabomb, or other upgrades elsewhere (depends on what the list looks like, of course), I dont' see the value of spending points to always do very poor damage compared to something that often does literally no damage, but can easily be a game-changer when it is effective. I mean, you don't see people buying insurance policies where they pay in and constantly get a pitiful dribble out. You buy insurance policies because sometimes there is disaster - a melta weapon being your million-dollar payout policy and your GL being not all that much better than the insurance guy calling you up and saying "you're on your own".

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2076840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2076840.page GMT Imperial guard tactic GL's in my army tend to go in Harker's squad which is normally babysitting an objective or at a forward post with ample view of the battle field.

Harker
AC
3x GL
5x Infantry

That is 3-6 S6 shots 2 S7 shots, + Lasguns. Plus if the unit is in cover (which it should be) they have a 3+ save. I tried using plasma guns, but if there is no medic they tend to kill themselves more often than not.

Yes they are situational, and yes they do have a multi-purpose role. But you cant rule them out just because you don't use them or like the synergy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077045.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077045.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
Ailaros wrote:Fine - GL's are basically just blast lasguns unless you want a 5% chance to stop a rhino (assuming it doesn't just fix itself the next turn) or a 1% chance of stopping a chimera...


I would much rather have a 5% chance of doing something than a 0% chance of doing nothing. I'm also not sure where your getting the 5% chance from either to be honest, I don't need to immobilise the Rhino, a mere stun will suffice.

Ailaros wrote:Seriously, GL's are terrible against vehicles.


They're not supposed to be amazing against vehicles. They are a very cheap upgrade that gives a standard PIS the chance to do some additional damage, as the GL is better than a lasgun and synergises very well in a PIS which will normally be touting a heavy weapon as well. They're not the ultimate answer to enemy armour, but they have the potential to perform both roles as/when the IG player needs them to for a very, very good price.

Ailaros wrote:As compared to a meltabomb, or other upgrades elsewhere (depends on what the list looks like, of course), I dont' see the value of spending points to always do very poor damage compared to something that often does literally no damage, but can easily be a game-changer when it is effective.


You are obviously a person who isn't comfortable with small returns for a small investment, you are much happier when you get a potentially massive payout at the risk of doing absoloutely nothing 9/10 games. This is fine, as I stated above we both have wildly different builds to our IG armies. I haven't an issue with this, as variety within a codex is great to see. What I object to is your constant dismissal of weaponry simply because it doesn't fit a playstyle that you laud.

Perhaps you need to take a step back and realise that people construct their armies in different ways and thus would view a gun/upgrade in a diifferent light than yourself? You say 'Those 5pts are best spent on meltabombs as they will actually do some damage to vehicles in an assault.' I say: 'My PIS spend all game inside Chimeras, never assault and have absoloutely no need for meltabombs whatsoever, as my dedicated anti-tank is elsewhere in my list.' Am I slating meltabombs and saying they are a useless attribution of your points allowance? No, I am merely saying that my playstyle doesn't suit a meltabomb upgrade and I'm much happier using those points on another gun which I will get infinetely more use out of over the course of the game.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077154.page GMT Imperial guard tactic BiD. Since there is only one weapon, the 3% chance of getting a weapon destroyed does have some value. If it's an MSU build, or a razorback, than even the 3% shaken result has value.

it's disengenous to spout stats without context. If I defined effective shooting as being able to deal damage at targets over 12" away, than melta guns wouldn't look very good. But that's a dumb definition.

If you want anti-infantry, than of course you take flamers. If you want dedicated anti-tank, you take a melta. But if you want your IS to hold an objective and shoot at range, there is no other option than the humble GL, aside from the pricey plasma gun.

The reason I don't max out the anti-infantry abilities of my platoon squads is twofold: 1) 6 lasguns isn't exactly great anti-infantry firepower in the first place, and 2) in my metagame, you have to get the infantry out of transports before you can shoot them.

My grenade launchers don't do much. I find it frustrating. But i don't want to put more points into a squad that's essentially there to hold the fort. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077420.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077420.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
Lycaeus Wrex wrote: I don't need to immobilise the Rhino, a mere stun will suffice.

Unless they have extra armor, of course.

In any case, what do you actually gain from temporarily stopping a rhino? Why spend points and weapons slots on something that has such a small chance of even a marginal return?

Lycaeus Wrex wrote: You are obviously a person who isn't comfortable with small returns for a small investment, you are much happier when you get a potentially massive payout at the risk of doing absoloutely nothing 9/10 games.

Right, I fundamentally fail to understand why someone would pay points for something that they know will be crappy all of the time. Instead, it makes way more sense to take something that has the reasonable chance to be game-changing. This is because 40k has a skill element to it. It's not just a matter of me taking a meltabomb and hoping my opponent drives next to it. Instead, I have control through movement and deployment. I can get weapons to where they need to be to get the job done.

As such, because I have some control over the circumstances, the chance that a weapon will do nothing whatsoever goes down. Furthermore, it goes down farther the better I get at using them. Eventually, through hard work, I can get a much better chance that a meltabomb will do something than merely 1 in 10. Meanwhile, crappy weapons that are always crappy benefit little from skill and learning to play well on the field. A GL is just as crappy in the hands of a noob as a master. While certain weapons will never get better, others will, and are also very useful when they come through in those times when they are used against their intended targets.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077733.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077733.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic
Meanwhile, crappy weapons that are always crappy benefit little from skill and learning to play well on the field. A GL is just as crappy in the hands of a noob as a master. While certain weapons will never get better, others will, and are also very useful when they come through in those times when they are used against their intended targets.


I would argument to the contrary. You mention your own mastery, but you seem to forget about the opponent. Yes you have control about what you do and maybe skill doing this, but the opponent has the same. And long range shooting has a preparing effect during the first 2 turns. It is the key to deny the opponent his mobility, which is good for your own positioning. If I stun rhinos the whole game I wont kill anything, but neither does my opponent. And above that he will not be able to move.

The weapons you define crappy work through numbers. 1 Grenade launcher does nothing, but 6 of them have a good chance doing something interesting to a rhino. (30p: 3 hits -> 1 result -> about 50% chance to do more than shaken. And grenade launchers are only secondary weapons.)

And crappy mass shooting is statistically better than good elite shooting. You see this with Orks and BS5.

6 BS5 Rokkits are better than 3 BS4 Krak Missiles. Both normally hit 2 times, but the orks have the possibility to hit 6x. The bs4 guys havent.
So the argument bs5 is crappy so dont shoot with orks is not valid.
The same applies to the grenade launcher and his comrades.
If you have many bad weapons, you are normally as good as with few good weapons, but the many weapons may perform better than the good weapons, because of their numbers.
(A guy with 8 arms can hit 8 enemies. A guy with 1 arm can only hit 1 enemy even though he is the master of kung fu...)

Of course you need meltas, but grenade launchers still have their value. I personally like it, if I can stop the enemy from turn 1 on.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077841.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077841.page GMT Imperial guard tactic
Ailaros wrote:In any case, what do you actually gain from temporarily stopping a rhino? Why spend points and weapons slots on something that has such a small chance of even a marginal return?


Extra armour costs 42% of a whole Rhino. I have never seen it run due to that cost.

What do you stand to gain!?! Are you serious?! How about stopping a 200+ point Space Marine squad from moving and/or shooting for a turn? You tout the importance of manouverability in 5th Ed and then ask what I stand to gain from taking away my enemy's movement? Are you trying to be rhetorical or just clutching at straws? You also fail to bear in mind that a GL isn't a primary weapon, its not even a secondary weapon. Its a tertiary weapon that has the potential to cause damage, and I'll also re-iterate; a small chance of even a marginal return is better than no chance of any return whatsoever, particularly when the cost to the IG player is practically nil.

Ailaros wrote:Right, I fundamentally fail to understand why someone would pay points for something that they know will be crappy all of the time. Instead, it makes way more sense to take something that has the reasonable chance to be game-changing.


GLs aren't crappy all of the time. In fact, they are better than a lasgun (the default weapon) ALL of the time, with the added benefit of being able to hurt AV10-11 in a pinch, if you need them to. I'll go back to my example, in my own army; I run PIS is Chimeras. There is absoloutely no value added to the unit if I give them a meltabomb as opposed to a GL. None. Zip. Nada. They won't be getting out, won't be moving huge distances and most definetely won't be charging vehicles. So where does the 'reasonable chance [of being] game-changing' come from?

Ailaros wrote:This is because 40k has a skill element to it. It's not just a matter of me taking a meltabomb and hoping my opponent drives next to it. Instead, I have control through movement and deployment. I can get weapons to where they need to be to get the job done.

As such, because I have some control over the circumstances, the chance that a weapon will do nothing whatsoever goes down. Furthermore, it goes down farther the better I get at using them. Eventually, through hard work, I can get a much better chance that a meltabomb will do something than merely 1 in 10.


See Nazdreg's comment as to how games of 40k have two players.

Ailaros wrote:Meanwhile, crappy weapons that are always crappy benefit little from skill and learning to play well on the field.


I completely and totally disagree. The best, most advanced weapon in the entire galaxy won't help you one jot if you don't know how to switch it on. A simple rock, however, is highly deadly in the hands of someone who is a master at the sling. Learning how to eke the most effectiveness out of your entire arsenal is paramount to becoming a better player, simply dismissing guns out of hand because they're not 5 point wonder weapons isn't.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2077916.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2083866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2083866.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic
-Nazdreg- wrote: You mention your own mastery, but you seem to forget about the opponent.

Regardless of what weapons you choose to take, or what your skill level is, your opponent's skill level in any game is a constant. Taking better or worse weapons won't make your opponent better or worse.

Really, it's a question of if YOU are good with weapons, because your weapons have no bearing on what your opponent is good with.

-Nazdreg- wrote:And crappy mass shooting is statistically better than good elite shooting. You see this with Orks and BS5.

6 BS5 Rokkits are better than 3 BS4 Krak Missiles.

But we're not comparing ork rokkits to guard missile launchers. We're comparing guard taking crappy weapons to guard taking good ones.

Furthermore, I'd like to see more statistics, because when I run the numbers 2 meltaguns kills chimeras way deader than 4 GLs for the same price.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:How about stopping a 200+ point Space Marine squad from moving and/or shooting for a turn?

Can't they get out and run? How does blowing up a bawks stop their movement?

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I completely and totally disagree. The best, most advanced weapon in the entire galaxy won't help you one jot if you don't know how to switch it on.

Clearly some weapons require more skill than others. Are you really going to say that a lascannon HWS requires the same skill to use as a melta SWS?

It just so happens that the weapons which tend to require the most skill to use are also the ones that do the most damage when you learn to use them properly. With guard (and I'd say in general for 40k actually), "versatility" is little more than a crutch for people who lack coordination, and don't care to learn.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2084096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2084096.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic
Ailaros wrote:Can't they get out and run? How does blowing up a bawks stop their movement?


Sure they can, except now they've left their mechanised protection behind (voluntarily if stunned, compulsary if not) and are now running towards you, on foot, into the teeth of your anti-MEQ firepower. I don't know about you, but if I was a SM player I wouldn't be too chuffed about the odds of that squad surviving.

Ailaros wrote:Clearly some weapons require more skill than others. Are you really going to say that a lascannon HWS requires the same skill to use as a melta SWS?


Deployment. Target priority. Orders. Yes, yes, I think I am saying exactly that. The only difference between the two is that my deployment is more important (perhaps requiring more skill due to the need to create fire lanes, clear LOS, advantageous positions etc) whilst you get a movement phase to re-deploy.

Ailaros wrote:It just so happens that the weapons which tend to require the most skill to use are also the ones that do the most damage when you learn to use them properly. With guard (and I'd say in general for 40k actually), "versatility" is little more than a crutch for people who lack coordination, and don't care to learn.


So your saying that every SM player out there (which, by the way, is a very versatile army) is simply a person who 'lacks co-ordination' and doesn't 'care to learn'? Versatile armies/guns are even HARDER to learn than the point-and-click variety. Everyone knows exactly how to use a meltagun; you run it at a tank and hope for the best. Not everyone knows how to play a Space Marine army effectively as there are a lot more thought processes involved in making the army perform to the best of its abiilties.

Just because something isn't so obvious in its application, it does not make it 'worse'.

l. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2084553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2084553.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic
Ailaros wrote:
Can't they get out and run? How does blowing up a bawks stop their movement?


The effective movement of a squad disembarking from a mobile rhino is up to 14.9" = 12" of rhino movement (with rotation), 2" from hatch, 1" base. In addition, the squad that got out can fire that turn.


The effective movement of a squad disembarking from a stunned or immobilized rhino is, at most, the same. That's deceptive, because most rhinos move nose first, so they lose some of their movement disembarking from a further back access point. Running is also randomized, resulting in an average move of 6" of movement, +2" disembark, +.9" base size, -2" from access point to front of rhino, +3.5" average run = 10.4" on average.

So a stunned result slows them down, on average, 4.5". It also prevents the unit from shooting if they run.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2084558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2084558.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic
Taking better or worse weapons won't make your opponent better or worse.


We dont talk about good or bad weapons, but about different kinds of weapons.
A meltagun gets 1 shot per game (perhaps even not a single shot at all). It needs some turns to get to a target, which is not sitting. After that it has to survive to get another shot.
Therefore this shot must be absolutely devastating or it is useless.
The grenade launcher I promise will fire 5-7 rounds per game if any target is present and if you have any knowledge about positioning (if not, its your advantage because you created a 30" zone of no opponents because of 20p spent in weapons...). So you get 5-7 chances to do something interesting.

Aside from that, a melta stunning a rhino is not important because you are already close.
A grenade launcher stunning arhino is very useful for you because you steal the opponent one turn of proper use with his unit. And this without much effort on your side.
(again compared to the melta which has to be brought to target despite enemy actions)

Furthermore, I'd like to see more statistics, because when I run the numbers 2 meltaguns kills chimeras way deader than 4 GLs for the same price.


OK lets compare 2 meltaguns with 4 GL against opposing guard infantry. Ah pointless? Yes. But no one shoots into chimera front with GL either if not desperate.
Rhinos should be the better comparison. Or we assume chimera side and we will see about the statistics...

But we're not comparing ork rokkits to guard missile launchers. We're comparing guard taking crappy weapons to guard taking good ones.


This was an example. GL shooting 5x compared to Meltaguns shooting once is the same story. GL have the possibility to to more damage due to more shooting.

Really, it's a question of if YOU are good with weapons, because your weapons have no bearing on what your opponent is good with.


If your opponent knows your weapon inside out (and meltaguns are used excessively lately) he does not care what you do with your weapon, he will predict it. Meltas are not that hard to defend. Especially footmeltas with 12" effective range. Just keep out of 12" and you are fine in most cases. And again once the melta shot, he will get the counter. So the melta must be on some mighty user. I assume a guardsman is not really mighty even if backed up by 20 others (I know you will tell me the contrary, but this will be pointless circling, I just claim people not knowing how to fight blobs properly, you claim you invented them and so on )

Clearly some weapons require more skill than others. Are you really going to say that a lascannon HWS requires the same skill to use as a melta SWS


Depending on the situation. A melta SWS sitting behind terrain at a decisive spot is not too hard to use. Going with 6 men through open ground is insanity, so where are the options? 1 stormbolter may be deadly.
Lascannon team has to sit in terrain, same as the melta SWS, the only difference is it has to be visible due to the nature of its weapon. So you must be even more careful about the position because you must target the enemy without the enemy targetting you. This is not very easy. Most players simply pt them in a position where they observe many spots. But seem to forget that many spots observe back...

So it all depends on opponent, terrain, your army composition, enemy army composition, mission and so on.

Comparing weapons to each other by comparing their damage potential they can offer if shooting one round is absolutely nonsense. (I dont mean this in an insulting manner, so please dont take this expression personally )
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2085214.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2085214.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic
ChrisWWII wrote:They do cost almost nothing, but for those same 5 points I could take a vox caster instead which I view as a much better deal. I say 'they don't work' understanding it to mean 'it's not a viable tactic'. Or if I can find 5 extra points somewhere, I can take a heavy bolter or autocannon, all of which are superior to a Grenade Launcher.

Just because an upgrade is dirt cheap doesn't mean its an autotake.


but you have to spend MORE than 5 points for the Vox caster to work. if you just get one, it won't help your squad at all....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2085218.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/325489/2085218.page GMT Re:Imperial guard tactic LC's would make complete sense, but this is 40K, real life tactics are trumped by rules.

Mortar's are completely underrated IMO, being only 60pts, with no LOS required and a 48" range is all awesome. Poor Strength is a downer, but the IG would be all powerful with better mortars.

AC's are good at many things, but not great at anything. Most Infantry fear them, light vehicles don't necessarily wander into their field of fire, but they have to remain immobile to be truly effective. Great for area denial, not great at much else.

LC's are awesome tank killers, but are definitely a niche weapon for the IG. Sure infantry die in scads if you're rolling to hit, but using them against anything but tanks, MC's or extra powerful independent characters is truly a waste of 20pts per gun.

Hvy Bolters are great against infantry and very light vehicles, really better when vehicle mounted though.

ML's are very versatile, good against most vehicles, decent agianst infantry, better when supplementing anti-infantry Hvy Weapons squads.

Special Weapon Squads are one of the greates units in the codex, the all sniper unit is really cool...until you use it in play. BS 3 Sniper bullets hurt quite a bit, if the old rules for snipers still applied, this unit would be in almost every IG army.

An all melta SWS is great to have jump out of Valkyrie and blow up stuff, then foot slogging to another target of opportunity. Demo charges are awesome as long as they are on target, Hvy Flamers are great man portable, infantry slaughtering toys, but also pricey at 20 pts. The regular flamer is great when used in conjunction with GL's or melta's, what the melta can't clear out of cover, the flamer takes care of.

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