<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. *revised*"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. *revised*
I was just thinking that I'd like to get an ork army at some point (after I finish my space wolves, before Tau get redone). So, I was messing around on army builder and I came up with this. I'd like feedback if possible--I have no experience with orks, oddly enough I've never even played against them. I read the forums here and that provides my only insight into orkind.

HQ: 1 Warboss @ 115 Pts
Power Klaw; Shoota/Scorcha Kombi-weapon; 'Eavy Armour; Attack Squig; Bosspole

HQ: 1 Big Mek @ 90 Pts
Choppa; Kustom Force Field; Bosspole

The HQ's go with the Nobz or boyz in battlewagons. I was thinking the Mek with the Nobz, and the Warboss with the boyz. I want to balance the threat between the two for target priority.

Elite: 10 Lootas @ 150 Pts

Elite: 10 Lootas @ 150 Pts

I rolled a ton of dice to see effectiveness vs AV 12 and determine how many lootas I could afford. 10
seems reasonable.

(16) Troops: 15 Boyz @ 131 Pts
Choppa & Slugga
1 Boyz Nob; Power Klaw; Slugga

List needed some numbers, with a Warboss and Nob they can soak up some casualties, hit back, and generally bully stuff, right? Should the bosspole be on the nob instead?

(5) (Count As) Troops: 4 Nobz @ 300 Pts
Big Choppa (x2); Choppa (x1); Power Klaw (x1); Slugga (x2);
Shoota/Skorcha Kombi-weapon (x2); 1 Painboy; Grot Orderly
1 Battlewagon; Boarding Plank; Deff Rolla; Grot Rigger

Diverse for wound allocation and FNP with a reroll for defense. They can push enemies off objectives and score.

(Count As) Troops: 1 Deff Dread @ 110 Pts
Dreadnought CCW (x2); Dreadnought CCW (x1); Scorcha(x1); Armour
Plates; Grot Rigger

He's a threat, he slices and dices, he's my consolation for my BW taking up a heavy slot instead of 3 cans. All my armies go into a glass display case so looks are a consideration too. Looks good with the other models.

Troops: 15 Gretchin @ 55 Pts
1 Runtherd

Troops: 10 Gretchin @ 40 Pts
1 Runtherd

Take backfield objectives, screen lootas. The dirty jobs.

Fast Attack: 3 Warbuggies @ 105 Pts
Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha

Fast Attack: 3 Warbuggies @ 105 Pts
Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha

Cheap and effective harassment. With the conversions I've seen, inexpensive too.

Heavy Support: 3 Killer Kans @ 135 Pts
Dreadnought CCW; Grotzooka (x3)

Heavy Support: 3 Killer Kans @ 135 Pts
Dreadnought CCW; Grotzooka (x3)

I like these guys. Grootzookas will help against hordes, not that I see many. Help against the DE surge too, which I may see by the time this army is on the table.

Heavy Support: 1 Battlewagon @ 125 Pts
Big Shoota (x1); Boarding Plank; Deff Rolla; Grot Rigger

Transporting the boyz.

Like I said, limited experience with orks. Any ideas?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2115097.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2115097.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. DCCW and Klaws. The difference here is that wagons will quickly run past the kans

Guess I'll just critique the list itself. Drop eavy armor and bosspoll on the warboss. He needs cybork since pretty much everything power weapon will aim for his head. Big mek doesnt need bosspoll either. Lootas are fine, maybe split one group up. Whats with the funny boyz number? generally the best advice is boyz before toys. Max out that wagon mob and yes you can get them the bosspoll. Nobz is fine I suppose. Wagons should have a big shoota so it wont get immobilized faster. Everything else seems fine. Maybe swap a buggy squad for suicide kopta.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2115789.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2115789.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative.
I get what you are saying about combining archetypes. It seems that spamming units is the way most people advocate list building and my SW are spamtastic. It's so unoriginal and stale though, isn't it? I like both archetypes but wow, they seem so one dimensional.

How bad is it tactically to take good elements and make a hybrid list? How fast will the BW's arrive before the walkers assuming the walkers run every chance they get? Can I mitigate this speed difference with tactics? I know you said it's optimal to choose spamming BW or spamming Kans, is there no other way while remaining competitive?

I will take your advice and cybork the Warboss. If I split up a loota unit, I will have a 5-man unit of lootas without a grot screen and 1 more KP to give up. Should I anyway? The odd number of boyz is a result of scraping points, same with one BW lacking a big shoota. I figure the big mek has a repair roll on that wagon (his ride) and it has grot riggers--so 2 chances to fix up an immobilized result. I actually don't have the points to make changes anywhere unless you can suggest something.

Your suggestions:

-'eavy armor and boss pole on the warboss, -boss pole on the big mek= 15 pts

+Boss pole on the boyz nob, cybork on the warboss= 15 pts.

Nobz group won't have a reroll to morale this way, is that acceptable?

Also, the buggy unit vs suicide kopta is tricky.

It would be:

3 TL Rocket buggies (105) OR

Deffkopta w/ Buzz saw and TL Rockets, 3 boyz, Big Shoota (BW), 5 gretchin (up the 10 man unit) (108-my list was 1747 points before)

I keep asking myself which is better, and I'm still leaning towards 3 buggies. Very hard to say though.

Thoughts?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2116238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2116238.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative.
As kenshin said, boyz before toyz, 16 boyz isn't going to give you much of a core force. I'd get another mob of 20 or so, whether in a BW or footslogging, should give you more numbers.

Other little things like cybork on your warboss, and perhaps combining your grot squads.

Otherwise, it;s nice to see something out of the norm, not kan wall or battlewagon spam, but something in between. I think this will be a fun list, and with a few tweaks a very good one too. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2116339.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2116339.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative.
Also, i like buggies and they are cheaper and pretty effective. Ive been looking for some conversions could you post links to the ones you have seen?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2116939.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2116939.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. first off, lootas i would think that 3 squads of 5 would work about a s good freeing up 75 pts to get you more boyz
in a kan list, the kans are there to shield da boyz but i see you dont have any boyz making the kans kinda useless :/ it will make your army more like a glass hammer too many toyz not enough boyz.
same thing for the battle wagons more like a glass hammer not enough battle weagons nor boyz and when your kff mek runs in the batle weagon the kans will get shot to bits
so just like kenshin620 said "Seems that your list is split into 2 archetypes in which it is optimal to choose one"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2117088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2117088.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. *revised*
Sorry I haven't written back sooner, I've been taking some time to look over some of the various tactica for orks and also reading some of the discussions related to orks list building. People seem to think of orks in very limited terms, very dismissive of new or different ideas. I get why, but it doesn't work for me. Let me outline a few things I'd like for this army:

--has to have a competitive quality. I'm not saying it has to be tuned for top tournaments because franky I'm not aware of any such event in Japan. If there were, and I wanted a better shot of placing high, id take my SW's. I do, however want a solid, fighting chance against any given army.

--has to look good on display. Multiples of the same three units are boring to look at, so are 200 boyz. I would like to have nice and varied visuals. 95% of the time i'm looking at my forces they're on display.

@kenshin- I still think that there can be some good things resulting from combining elements of different archetypes. I see the danger you cautioned against. 

@Eldar own--thanks, I like out of the norm too. I also agree that I need more boyz and after reading though many pages ork tactics, I have to say I'm valuing koptas slightly more than buggies now. 

@ Tekeino--boyz, boyz, boyz. Lol, thanks, I added some. Also, this would have been what I would have modelled my conversion on. Pretty achievable, don't let the attention to detail and the quality paintjob dissuade you. Some nuce ones on dakka too. 
 http://www.the-waaagh.com/forums/?showtopic=22916

@Chobarba- thanks for the welcome waaaagh. More boys, check. Small lootas is an idea too.

Here's the new list with a lot of changes:

HQ: 1 Big Mek @ 85 Pts
Choppa; Kustom Force Field

He goes in the wagon with the nobs. KFF to the three BW's. 

HQ: 1 Big Mek @ 85 Pts
Choppa; Kustom Force Field

Runs with the 20 Shoota boyz screened by the 3 Kans and 2 Dreads. Giving KFF to the vehicles, which screen the boyz. 

Elite: 5 Lootas @ 75 Pts
Small, low priority. Will probably be ignored. Win-win even if they draw fire.  

Elite:  Nobz @ 230 Pts
-Power Klaw, Slugga
-Choppa, Slugga
-Choppa, Shoota/Skorcha Kombi-weapon

1 Battlewagon @ [140] Pts
Big Shoota (x1); Armour Plates; Boarding Plank; Deff Rolla; Grot
Rigger; Red Paint Job

Min. squad to facillitate a third BW. Stripped bare except for a couple points for utility. 

Fast Attack: 1 Deffkoptas @ 70 Pts
Buzzsaw (x1); Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha (x1)

Fast Attack: 1 Deffkoptas @ 70 Pts
Buzzsaw (x1); Twin Linked Rokkit Launcha (x1)

Let's see if they are as good as people claim. I see how they could be. 

1 Deff Dread @ 100 Pts
Dreadnought CCW (x2); Skorcha (x2); Armour Plates; Grot Rigger

1 Deff Dread @ 100 Pts
Dreadnought CCW (x2); Skorcha (x2); Armour Plates; Grot Rigger

Cheap, count as troops, additional AV value. Can benefit from the second KFF. 

Troops: 19 Shoota Boyz @ 160 Pts
1 Boyz Nob; Power Klaw; Bosspole

Running behind the obscurred walker AV wall with the attached Bigmek.  

Troops: 19 Slugga Boyz @ 160 Pts
1 Boyz Nob; Power Klaw; Bosspole

Troops: 19 Slugga Boyz @ 160 Pts
1 Boyz Nob; Power Klaw; Bosspole

The green meat of the battlewagons. 

Troops: 10 Gretchin @ 40 Pts
1 Runtherd

Holding home objective. 

Heavy Support: 3 Killer Kans @ 135 Pts
Dreadnought CCW; Grootzooka (x3)

I like them. I like grotzookas. They run obscurred for a turn or two then hang out at 18 inches with the shoota boyz and drop blasts. 

Heavy Support: 1 Battlewagon @ 140 Pts
Big Shoota (x1); Armour Plates; Boarding Plank; Deff Rolla; Grot Rigger; Red Paint Job

Heavy Support: 1 Battlewagon @ 140 Pts
Big Shoota (x1); Armour Plates; Boarding Plank; Deff Rolla; Grot Rigger; Red Paint Job

Useful!

Please let me know your thoughts. If you would offer suggestions of things to change, please explain where you would find the points to fund such changes. 

Thanks guys  
     ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2122567.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2122567.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. *revised*
Double the Loota unit, more fire power the better.

Nobz would last longer with a Painboy, feel no pain is awesome

Deff Dreads are a waste because they will fall behind the Battlewagons and do not claim objectives, get some real troops which can.

Walkers and Battlewagons will not work, they will fall behind the Wagons. You need to do one or the other, drop the Wagons and go Kan wall or ditch the walkers and go all Battlewagons. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2122937.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2122937.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. *revised* KFF of their own as do the BW's. Also, I talked quite about about my aim for the army--BW spam and Kan wall doesn't fit into what I'm trying for.

Actually the more I reread your post, the more it seems you are refering to the first list I posted. Could you have another look, please? Thanks for taking the time!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eh, maybe you are refering to the right list. But are you saying that there is no way, under any circumstances, that any ork player can have a good list with battlewagons without going all battlewagon spam? Likewise, are you saying that an ork player can in no way play a list effectively that includes kans without taking 9? I thought I expressed my feelings about how I find maxed out lists unimaginative and I want to something in a new direction. Regardless, thanks for commenting. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2123130.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2123130.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. *revised* KFF of there own, point is they will fall behind and if they have got KFF of their own means either a transport is lagging behind to baby sit them, Mek is on foot or with a unit on foot - what is the point? With Ork vehicles moving ahead and then being open-topped letting them get into assault means that walker will just fall behind, bummer :(

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2123168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2123168.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. *revised* KFF so lagging behind is irrelevent in that respect. What am I missing? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2124690.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2124690.page GMT Re:1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. *revised*
You need your whole army to work together. A 'Wagon rush needs to be all or nothing because it must basically win in one assault phase.

The Kan Wall is a more versatile list, but it needs to have enough Kans to build the wall, or else you may have boyz out of cover or vulnerable to assault.

Even running, walkers can't keep up; in two turns, a wagon will move 24 or 26 inches. On average, the Walkers will go 19. When the boyz disembark, that's another nearly three inches onto the bargain. The boys will then fleet due to the Waagh! and charge. The Walkers aren't going to be close. You'll have half of your army fighting all of his.

If your transports wait for the walkers, you'll waste a turn and take additional losses crossing the table. Neither way will work well.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2125080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2125080.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. *revised*
Thanks everyone for your input, cheers!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2125332.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2125332.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. *revised*
AesSedai wrote:I've heard that not keeping up to the battlewagons is "a bad idea" but I would really like to hear more about how bad. The way I see it the shoota boyz, kans, and dreads are happy to run every turn. Realistically, how far behind can they be? The dreads are obviously not shooters, so they will have to charge into the opponents lines, but I would say they are fairly well equipped to mop up survivers of the BW's assault or lend backup to ongoing combats. The kans and shoota boyz are happy to do there jobs at 18 inches behind the BW's. Both waves have a KFF so lagging behind is irrelevent in that respect. What am I missing?


pzbw7z wrote:Your opponent will be able to deal with half of your list at a time. First, the transports, then the walkers.

You need your whole army to work together. A 'Wagon rush needs to be all or nothing because it must basically win in one assault phase.

The Kan Wall is a more versatile list, but it needs to have enough Kans to build the wall, or else you may have boyz out of cover or vulnerable to assault.

Even running, walkers can't keep up; in two turns, a wagon will move 24 or 26 inches. On average, the Walkers will go 19. When the boyz disembark, that's another nearly three inches onto the bargain. The boys will then fleet due to the Waagh! and charge. The Walkers aren't going to be close. You'll have half of your army fighting all of his.

If your transports wait for the walkers, you'll waste a turn and take additional losses crossing the table. Neither way will work well.


AesSedai wrote:@pzbw7z- Thanks dude, you put it into very clear terms. I guess this just won't work conceptually. It's a shame really because I like the potential of the BW kit and kans and dreads look great too. I'll keep trying to make something different from the cookie cutter lists, but looks like kans and BW is out of the picture.

Thanks everyone for your input, cheers!



pzbw7z has put it into perspective for you, even though I mentioned about assault and the walkers falling behind. Perhaps I thought it was obivous why it won't work? Anyway, either way it won;t work :( and you are right, the Wagons and walkers are sweet models. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2126289.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2126289.page GMT 1750 Orks-New to orks, speculative. *revised*
AesSedai wrote:@pzbw7z- Thanks dude, you put it into very clear terms. I guess this just won't work conceptually. It's a shame really because I like the potential of the BW kit and kans and dreads look great too. I'll keep trying to make something different from the cookie cutter lists, but looks like kans and BW is out of the picture.

Thanks everyone for your input, cheers!



It won't work well. I think that's fair to say.

The Ork book is so old it has been well analyzed, and it is also a good bit inferior to the 5th edition codexes. One needs a good list to be competitive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2128083.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/327753/2128083.page GMT