<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "IG plas vet & medic questions"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "IG plas vet & medic questions"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net IG plas vet & medic questions
2) Is it better that my caraspace armored command squad have a 4th plasma gun, or 3 plasma guns and a medic? They mainly just stick in the chimera assigned to them, so the FNP really comes into play only if the guns overheat or their ride blows.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166018.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166018.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions
4.) 4 plasma.

3 dudes shooting plasma with a medic in any given turn put down 4 hits with about .3 burns. The next turn (assuming they even survive), they put down 4 hits for another .3 burns. Odds of them getting three good rounds of shooting with plasma guns at 12" are pretty low.

Meanwhile, 4 dudes with 4 plasma guns puts down 5 hits for 1 burn. The next turn they put down 4 hits for .6 burns.

As such, for 15 extra points, you gain the ability to do one FEWER plasma hit per game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166230.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions
You see, a CCS with 4 plasmas may well (and probably will) lose at least one guy per rapid-fire phase. The loss of even a single gunner decreases the effectiveness of the squad dramatically, which is something a medic goes a long way towards offsetting.

From a personal POV, I take a medic in my CCS to stop overheats wrecking the squad's ability to do damage. In Veteran squads? I don't take plasma so can't really comment.

If out-and-out damage is your thing then by all means go for 4 x plasma in the CCS. If you want them to stick around a little bit longer and have a second opportunity to pay for themselves, take a medic.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166462.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166462.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166695.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166695.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:HOWEVER one of the factors Ailaros hasn't considered is any subsequent shooting phases past the one in which you lose a gunner.

Actually, I did...

Ailaros wrote:3 dudes shooting plasma with a medic in any given turn put down 4 hits with about .3 burns. The next turn (assuming they even survive), they put down 4 hits for another .3 burns. Odds of them getting three good rounds of shooting with plasma guns at 12" are pretty low.

Meanwhile, 4 dudes with 4 plasma guns puts down 5 hits for 1 burn. The next turn they put down 4 hits for .6 burns.

The first turn of shooting, you do more damage with 4. The second you do about the same. How many more turns of shooting at 12" with plasma guns do you really think you're going to get?

Plus, when you knock off the price of a medic, you can add a plasma pistol, which means you're now doing more damage in both the first AND second turn of shooting. AND you have points left over...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166747.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166747.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions FNP is ovepriced in my opinion, when as he said, with the same amount of points you can get more plasma weapons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166753.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2166753.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions
If you roll 8 x dice to hit you'll get on average what, 2 x ones in that pile? Now, these ones could all be on one gunner, in which case its not that big a deal as you only lose one man, or it could be on two gunners, which is a lot, lot worse; as now you've halved the overall effectiveness of your squad in your own shooting phase not taking into account how many actual hits you get.

Plasma weaponry is expensive. Even for IG. To lose those pricey guns to overheats is not a very effective allocation of points. The medic helps mitigate this somewhat as he tacks on a LOT of survivability to a squad you kind of want to protect (what with BiD and stuff). I like, and laud, the use of plasma weaponry as I think its underused and under-appreciated. However, you need to offset the damage output by creating contingency plans should the dice turn around and bite you in the ass.

Take the medic. He may not be used 50% of games because you roll well. But when you roll badly you'll be damn glad you took him.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2167421.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2167421.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions
In my experience plasma armed units do not manage to shoot more than twice in most cases. If they are in a position to shoot and your opponent lets them live any longer than two turns, then you have already outsmarted and outplayed your enemy and the game is basically over. I would not recommend any carapace or any medics, as the points can be used very well elsewhere. One possibility is to use the leftovers to get them a demolition charge.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2167492.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2167492.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions
I use a plasma CCS so my advice isn't based upon statistical averages but upon actual experience on the table. If your plasma gunners aren't shooting more than two times then I'm afraid your not adequately protecting them. They are an expensive investment (in IG terms) and you should protect them as such. Simply throwing them away with the attitude of 'I have more' doesn't really cut it when you only have 2 x HQ FOC slots.

On Veterans? That's a whole different kettle of fish.

L. Wrex
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2167542.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2167542.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions CCS in cover and watch my opponent waste fusillades of fire on my squad as they survive countless times from failed cover saves. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2171497.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2171497.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions CCS, it's cheap, lets you pack 4 plasma guns in and improves survival odds by about 50%. Best of both world imho.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2171585.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2171585.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:No, you get 1.333*. That's still potentially 1.3 dead gunners every time you shoot at 12".

Don't forget armor saves.

8 shots = 1.3 burns = .88 killed. I was actually being GENEROUS with my eariler math, given that I just assumed one died straight away.

Even including losing models to burns, the extra plasma gun just does more damage over time.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:If your plasma gunners aren't shooting more than two times then I'm afraid your not adequately protecting them.

?

If you're 12" away from something using BiD and FoMT like a fiend, that means that your opponent is 12" away from you. That's assault range. In the very least, small arms are automatically in range, and it's not going to be hard to use a flamer from this far away. I really don't see how you can possibly keep a plasma unit alive for more than 2 turns if you're shooting from 12", and your opponent really wants it dead.

Especially without also giving them cover saves against your plasma shooting.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2171743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2171743.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions

Ok then to what leads the 4th plasmagun? it does not even kill a model. should be about 0,6-0,7 dead T1-5 models in cover (stomach math).
so you think you want to pay 15p for killing possibly one guy for the whole game? (Assuming you shoot only once) So we have to conclude in a very disappointing kill-ratio of about 2-3 enemy models shooting with 4 plasmaguns in close range. the 2-3 remaining combat squad marines will wipe out your CCS in the countercharge easily.

This is where we get to a point. You wont do much less damage using 3 plasmaguns, but you will more likely defend yourself against the charging remnants if you equip medic and powerfist.

so you will probably shoot a second time after you killed 5 guys instead shooting never again after killing 3, maybe 4 guys.

If you're 12" away from something using BiD and FoMT like a fiend, that means that your opponent is 12" away from you. That's assault range. In the very least, small arms are automatically in range, and it's not going to be hard to use a flamer from this far away. I really don't see how you can possibly keep a plasma unit alive for more than 2 turns if you're shooting from 12", and your opponent really wants it dead.

Especially without also giving them cover saves against your plasma shooting.

Combined arms my friend.

3 units for one job, thats guard philosophy. But not 3 dead units, but 3 units at a time at minimum. If you engage a target be sure to wipe it out completely before it can strike back.

But I agree to you, you must expect your opponent dug in. Especially MEQ has absolutely no problem finding some cover without losing much mobility.

And this is actually the reason why I leave plasmaguns at the armoury, they just dont perform that well against MEQ/TEQ in cover.

Another possibility: hiding behind tanks.

Just a 0,5" slit is sufficient to shoot through, but insufficient to charge through.

And speaking of flamers: You rarely see flamers, most people take meltaguns in offensive squads.
Against flamers you will have no problems, they wont hurt you, so a few tank shocks will solve the problem easier than shooting anything

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2171858.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2171858.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions CCS. Medic goes a long way to bolster survivability against enemies. Say your chimera gets blown up and you're now in the ruins. A squad of marines rapid firing on you will kill most of the squad even through 4+ cover. Add FNP to the equation, and suddenly things aren't so grim.

You can always give the CCS a plasma pistol, too.

That said, I don't know if I would invest in BOTH carapace AND a medic. If I relied on the unit for orders (i.e. had blob squads or some such nearby), I'd take the medic. Otherwise, if they are just a glorified special weapons team, I'd take the carapace, 4th plasmagun and plasmapistol (eat 7 shots, sucker!). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2172391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2172391.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions FNP alone isn't going to keep a single 5-man squad of T3 squishies alive against a determined opponent. Yes, it may keep them alive against a round of bolter fire, but they're not coming out in tact. In fact, they're probably going to come out with just 1 plasma gun - scarcely a threat anymore.

And that is, of course, if the enemy doesn't focus fire on them (which they will if they consider them a threat), or get into close combat (which they probably can if you're shooting from 12" away), or whip out weapons which ignore FNP (which everybody brings in case of BA or Nurgle players).

And that's assuming they even pass their morale check.

No, a 5-man squad of squishies is going to get squished if your opponent wants them squished - carapace, medic, or otherwise.

Might as well do as much damage as you can while the unit is safe, because they're going to be doing VERY little damage (as in probably zero) once they spend a turn endangered.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2172419.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2172419.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions CCS, is one less fusillade fired at that veteran squad about to capture that objective, or two fewer melta shots at that vendetta about to deliver a SWS with demo charges.

Even if the unit is crippled to the point that they can no longer put out any damage, well, the last model standing is probably the Officer, who can now run to safety, thus denying them a kill point and keeping orders in play.

That said, I only give plasmaguns to a CCS if I'm bringing two of them, and I usually spend my second HQ slot on an Inquisitor. The first CCS usually comes with a standard, vox, and a pair of meltas just in case. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2172549.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2172549.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Terminus wrote:The "moar shots is always bettah" side of the argument is failing to account for enemy fire at the CCS. Medic goes a long way to bolster survivability against enemies. Say your chimera gets blown up and you're now in the ruins. A squad of marines rapid firing on you will kill most of the squad even through 4+ cover. Add FNP to the equation, and suddenly things aren't so grim.

You can always give the CCS a plasma pistol, too.

That said, I don't know if I would invest in BOTH carapace AND a medic. If I relied on the unit for orders (i.e. had blob squads or some such nearby), I'd take the medic. Otherwise, if they are just a glorified special weapons team, I'd take the carapace, 4th plasmagun and plasmapistol (eat 7 shots, sucker!).

I have a plasma pistol and caraspace armor (trying to figure out how to model it on and not look like crap) since I'm pretty much using my CCS as a better BS SWS atm. Seeing as my army rarely uses orders unless its BID against the odd MC (generally 'nid hilarity and a Blood Thirster) or the sole land raider I run into, they have little use other than another source of BS4, albeit at half strength compared to vets. As for the chimera getting blown, I always run them in at least pairs (preferably in trios since I currently have 6), so if need be I can dive into a new one. Admittedly, that will kill my shooting from them for the turn. Also, wouldn't the KO'd chimera provide at least some cover?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2174230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2174230.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions CCS with 4 plas 1Plaspistol and carapace armor. With how you're supposed to roll each individually for overheating it seems if I lose any it's only 1 ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2174262.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2174262.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions CCS out of that vendetta, they may have 20 guardsmen around them, but hell their not going to have many more.

25 guardsmen will last 2 turns on the front lines.

Jump out, toast a high value unit, die. War of attrition my friends! if you can kill their units at the same rate they kill yours, but yours are cheaper, they loose.

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FOREXAMPLE! If theres a trygon, you have a good chance of wounding it so badly that the next unit can finish it off. Do it, its worth the points.

Also only take medics in squads with advisors who needa survive, and always put them in a chimera. FNP saves them when the chimera asplodes . ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2178152.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2178152.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions

In fact, they're probably going to come out with just 1 plasma gun

Which is the 4th plasmagun with the difference, that the enemy needs one more turn of attention to kill them off. And still, they didnt get the more important troop guys.

No, a 5-man squad of squishies is going to get squished if your opponent wants them squished - carapace, medic, or otherwise.

I say a 5 man squad of FNP-squishies will need MUCH attention to get squished. A grade of attention that you can preestimate in the game before you consider disembarking. And a medic gives you more opportunities to disembark without getting mowed down in response. Again, buying plasmaguns for shooting 1 round is foolish. Same to meltaguns and flamers. The damage is just too low compared to the points spent.

Yes, let the opponent get all hot under the collar over killing them. Every extra round of bolter fire the opponent has to expend killing the CCS, is one less fusillade fired at that veteran squad about to capture that objective, or two fewer melta shots at that vendetta about to deliver a SWS with demo charges.

exactly.

25 guardsmen will last 2 turns on the front lines.

so why is their place in the front lines? Why not killing out of a safe distance or clearing the 12"-zone properly?

War of attrition my friends! if you can kill their units at the same rate they kill yours, but yours are cheaper, they loose.

Combined arms my friend! If you can clear the resistance before the resistance kills you, you will win with no losses

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2178280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2178280.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions FnP?

Just throwing an idea out there....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2180342.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2180342.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2180989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2180989.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions CCS with a medic and carapace armor in a chimera. I've recently upgraded this squad to include Straken since I was taking a plasma pistol and a power weapon anyways. Add in the 3 plasma guns and the squad draws a lot of firepower towards it. Straken with FNP is amazing. A regular commander with FNP is still amazing since he can bolster everyone around him with orders. Then again it comes down to how you play. If you want to ensure your units survive take a medic. If you want some extra defense take the carapace armor. Sure those points are the same as a regular infantry platoon squad with a melta gun (or a power sword for the sargeant). The fact is that you are protecting one of your major units. Also when you get nailed with a heavy flamer you still have a 50% chance of surviving. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2180992.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2180992.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

danp164 wrote:what about very rare event of your OPPONENT inflicting a wound, wouldnt it be good in that case to have FnP?

Yes, it would help, but it's really not that tough to kill 5 guardsmen, FNP or not.

I hadn't considered Straken, though, where he might be useful. That would make his squad insanely expensive, though, so even then I don't think I'd do it.

Plus, you've got to remember that while you will ideally be able to combine arms, your opponent has something to say on the matter. To assume that you'll always be able to bring in a second or third plasma squad to help out is daring fate against a smart opponent, who will be spending their time making it so that you can't afford to do just that.

Times like these, the fact that a 4x plasma+plasma pistol CCS can take down a trygon in a single volley all by itself is priceless.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2181237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2181237.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions
It has some other uses, but I don't think it is really ever a good buy. You pay 30 pts to lose a special weapon and make a 50pt sqd last at best twice as long. Why not just buy another squad? Maybe if you are trying to shield a special character, but never one short range/going to get the crap kicked out of it unit like plasma command.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2181591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2181591.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:Medic for the purpose of saving plasma guns is a sucker's buy.

Except its also useful if the Chimera explodes, or you get shot at with bolters and you happen to find yourself out of position/cover (your armour fails, your FNP doesn't). If your in cover it makes the squad very resilient indeed.

Let's take the good old Space Marine Tactical. 7 bolters, one BP at 12" away. 15 shots. 66% chance of a hit = 11 rounding up. 66% chance to wound = 7 rounding down. So if your out of cover that's pretty much a squad wipe without a medic. If you have the medic you suffer 3.5 wounds, still pretty bad, but it leaves the Officer alive to issue orders/retain the KP. If your in cover with a medic you suffer 1.25 wounds, which is more than acceptable for occupying an entire Tactical squad for one turn of shooting.

The medic is worth it. Note I didn't include the flamer/ML stats as the flamer is out of range, and I guess I assumed the ML moved with the Tactical to get to within RF range.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:It has some other uses, but I don't think it is really ever a good buy.

See above.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:You pay 30 pts to lose a special weapon and make a 50pt sqd last at best twice as long. Why not just buy another squad? Maybe if you are trying to shield a special character, but never one short range/going to get the crap kicked out of it unit like plasma command.

See above.

I get that IG have a 'there are always more' mentality, but in the case of the CCS you don't really. You have two. And they're precious due to their orders/special weapon loadouts. I prefer to look after the expensive units in my army, and mitigating plasma wounds/vehicle explosions/enemy fire via FnP is a damn good way to protect what is, in all fairness, quite an expensive inventment.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2182052.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2182052.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions
I said it had some other uses, but people taking it just for saving plasma guns are making a bad buy.

I also said it would increase the longevity of a squad, but really not anymore than simply deploying in cover (which is free!). Sure there are things that ignore cover, there are also things that ignore FNP.

In most cases, especially if the squad is in a chimera (which the plasma squads should be) the medic is a waste. Either you never get out/never take any fire and you are better off with more plasma guns OR you get out and then likely die (with or without a medic).

And as Aliaros already said, you are only going to get one, maybe two rapid fire plasma shots a game. For a non scoring unit you are better throwing out more plasma shots, and for cheaper too. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2183237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2183237.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Ailaros wrote:

danp164 wrote:what about very rare event of your OPPONENT inflicting a wound, wouldnt it be good in that case to have FnP?

Yes, it would help, but it's really not that tough to kill 5 guardsmen, FNP or not.

This is my point, to kill 5 guardsmen if they dont have carapace armour takes one round of shooting from a tac squad (Assuming the CCS isnt in cover) to eliminate the lot of them, no saves, no chance, zip nada, dead. All the space marine player has had to do is look at them funny, at least with FnP the SM player might be inclined to put some effort in.

@Irdiumstern

Thats what a chimera is for?

To provide an armour 12 box that will probably not last a turn of open fire before exploding and possibly killing the people it was supposed to be protecting?

Dont get me wrong my IG army is still small and growing but I dont understand this inane love of chimeras, its a nice tank with a nice gun, but for mobility sake we can already use orders to move infantry 12" on ont he almost garunteed certainty that the chimera bites it, the chance of it exploding and killing your own men is worryingly high with a 5+ armour save.

Maybe im still thinking with a 4th ed mindset but to me chimeras seem less like a taxi and more like a death trap...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2184589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2184589.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

rogueeyes wrote:I actually run a CCS with a medic and carapace armor in a chimera. I've recently upgraded this squad to include Straken since I was taking a plasma pistol and a power weapon anyways. Add in the 3 plasma guns and the squad draws a lot of firepower towards it. Straken with FNP is amazing. A regular commander with FNP is still amazing since he can bolster everyone around him with orders. Then again it comes down to how you play. If you want to ensure your units survive take a medic. If you want some extra defense take the carapace armor. Sure those points are the same as a regular infantry platoon squad with a melta gun (or a power sword for the sargeant). The fact is that you are protecting one of your major units. Also when you get nailed with a heavy flamer you still have a 50% chance of surviving.

Hmm, I field Straken as well, although I usually like having a standard around, since Straken means close combat squads, and even Ld9 is not infallible.

Giving his squad a bunch of plasma guns is not something I've seen before. One of his great strengths is how much he can tear stuff up in combat (especially when backing up a blob and engaging the enemy unit where the power fist can't get to him), and rapid fire weapons kind of preclude that. I usually give his squad a pair of meltaguns, as that also makes him squad damn good at tank hunting.

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danp164 wrote:
Dont get me wrong my IG army is still small and growing but I dont understand this inane love of chimeras, its a nice tank with a nice gun, but for mobility sake we can already use orders to move infantry 12" on ont he almost garunteed certainty that the chimera bites it, the chance of it exploding and killing your own men is worryingly high with a 5+ armour save.

Maybe im still thinking with a 4th ed mindset but to me chimeras seem less like a taxi and more like a death trap...

Explosion is not that likely if you really look at the odds breakdown of the damage chart. A unit in a chimera is far far far far far far far more survivable than one that's trying to run around in the open, even accounting for the (small) risk of an explosion. Chimeras are magnificent because they are dirt cheap, tough with AV12, and have two great weapons. There are very few better buys at 55 points.

So yes, you are very much stuck in 4th edition. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2186537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2186537.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions tac squad shooting at them once they've bailed out of a chimera perfectly in tact?

Even with carapace AND a medic, you're STILL not as durable as space marines. How difficult do you think it is to kill 5 marines? In my book, that's pretty darn easy. I don't foresee opponents having much problem with this either.

Paying 50 extra points to lower a squad's firepower and make it a 50 point bigger loss when it gets wiped out by a single shot from a vindicator or a single charge by a dreadnought seems like a poor idea to me.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2186599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2186599.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions
With carpace and a medic you are, in fact, MORE durable than a Space Marine; 4+, 4+ > 3+. I haven't taken the toughness into account as thats dependant upon whats shooting at them.

Medics aren't 50 points. They're 30. Again, I highlight the desire to protect an expensive investment, especially when the squad in question is already hovering around the 150pt mark (with a Chimera). It's not much more of a points sink to provide a boon in survivability, supplemented even more if you happen to take Advisors in your CCS as well.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2186792.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2186792.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Ailaros wrote:
Even with carapace AND a medic, you're STILL not as durable as space marines.

Actually, if we're talking boltguns and the like, they ARE as durable. 10 boltgun hits will do an average of 1.65 unsaved wounds to Space Marines. The same number of hits against FNP IG with carapace or in cover will do an average of 1.65 unsaved wounds.

That said, as much as I like the medic, I do think he's a tad overpriced at 30 points, or at least at 30 points + special weapon slot. If the medic was an advisor attachment to the CCS, I would never ever leave home without him. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2186883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2186883.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions CCS with just adding on a medic and carapace you're spending nearly 12 points a wound, all for something that's worse than a space marine.

Plus, if your opponent really deems a plasma CCS a threat, they're not just going to sit there taking pot shots with just one unit. Really, you're just going to give something for their anti-MEq firepower to shoot at other than being wasted on regular guardsmen.

Having a medic as a independent non-HQ HQ choice (like a priest or an enginseer) might possibly make them worth taking, as you could assign him to whatever unit you thought was in most danger, or that could actually make good use of him (like ogryn or a power blob, or something). As it is, spending points and firepower opportunity to give a slight durability bump to a squad that, after the bump, is still easy to annihilate seems like a waste.

It would be like taking the ever-so-fragile sentinel and giving it the option to spend 20 points to make it's front armor not suck quite so badly...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2187501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2187501.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Ailaros wrote:Against small arms, they may be as durable, but not against any type of heavier weaponry or close combat. Plus, this all hides the fact that a bare naked CCS with just adding on a medic and carapace you're spending nearly 12 points a wound, all for something that's worse than a space marine.

Plus, if your opponent really deems a plasma CCS a threat, they're not just going to sit there taking pot shots with just one unit. Really, you're just going to give something for their anti-MEq firepower to shoot at other than being wasted on regular guardsmen.

Having a medic as a independent non-HQ HQ choice (like a priest or an enginseer) might possibly make them worth taking, as you could assign him to whatever unit you thought was in most danger, or that could actually make good use of him (like ogryn or a power blob, or something). As it is, spending points and firepower opportunity to give a slight durability bump to a squad that, after the bump, is still easy to annihilate seems like a waste.

It would be like taking the ever-so-fragile sentinel and giving it the option to spend 20 points to make it's front armor not suck quite so badly...

i'll disagree with that one. it really hurts IG in my opinion- when you start spending lots of points on stuff that's so cheap it's suppose to die in droves. when you start adding on Special characters, Medics or whatever instead of guns, ig lose. you wind up spending SM points on IG.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2187584.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2187584.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions
But what is going to do more, two Sv 5+ vets with a pair of meltaguns or three Sv 4+ FNP dudes with lasguns?

In this case, the medic and carapace are just bloat. They soak up points without really adding much.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2187797.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2187797.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions

Sure, a vet with a meltagun costs 17 points, which is more than a space marine.

But what is going to do more, two Sv 5+ vets with a pair of meltaguns or three Sv 4+ FNP dudes with lasguns?

In this case, the medic and carapace are just bloat. They soak up points without really adding much.

Neither of them. Both will lose to 2 bolter marines.

a medic should be put into a relatively big HQ of course, otherwise its too expensive. So some astropath and bodyguard should be added.

with 7 guys FNP and 4+ armour (including 1 3 wound model) things get interesting. having another 4+ backup (apart from the cover save) save is very handy]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2189397.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2189397.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Ailaros wrote:In this case, the medic and carapace are just bloat. They soak up points without really adding much.

Justify this.

There's not a whole lot of difference in 2 plasma shots. There IS a whole lot of difference when those remaining 6-8 plasma shots roll '1s' and blow up in the hands of their gunners. The medic not only mitigates the damage caused by overheats, which is ALWAYS desirable as then you don't have to remove your own models in your turn, but it increases the survivability of the squad as a whole. How is this 'not adding much' to the unit?

L. Wrex

EDIT:

Ailaros wrote:three Sv 4+ FNP dudes with lasguns?

Guh? Who leaves their CCS without special weapons? If your doing that then medic, carpace or either will not save you from defeat.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190196.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:The medic not only mitigates the damage caused by overheats, which is ALWAYS desirable as then you don't have to remove your own models in your turn, but it increases the survivability of the squad as a whole. How is this 'not adding much' to the unit?

The point is it ISN'T always desirable. Not when is costs twice as much as a plasmagun, 60% of an entirely new squad, 54% of a chimera, and eats up the spot for a 4th plasma gun.

If you play plasma guns in a chimera right then they won't need a medic, and the one or two times you do shoot will be more effective even after they kill themselves. I know you can't quantify good gamemanship, but the medic in real game play does not do anything for a plasma/chimera command and costs quite a lot for a guard army. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190241.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions
I'll re-iterate: the CCS is a rare commodity. It does things NO OTHER unit in the IG codex can do; namely BiD, FoMT and Advisors. These ablities are worth protecting. Simply saying 'Oh well, I have more' doesn't cut it when 50% of your HQ choices just vapourised itself in your own shooting phase.

I have no idea how you can say a medic does 'not do anything' for a plasma CCS and keep a straight face. Your mile obviously massively varies in comparison to mine.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190327.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190327.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Ailaros wrote:In this case, the medic and carapace are just bloat. They soak up points without really adding much.

Justify this.

I already have. Allow me to repeat:

- 5 T3 dudes with 5+ no FNP are easy to kill

- 5 T3 dudes with 4+ and with FNP are easy to kill

Is the latter LESS easy to kill? Yes. Is it still easy to kill? Yes.

What's the difference, then between the two? The latter is more expensive and puts out less damage.

I can't really make this any more clear.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190329.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190329.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Ailaros wrote:What's the difference, then between the two? The latter is more expensive and puts out less damage.

But lasts longer, is more survivable, gets better the more advisors/models you have in a CCS and isn't as likely to melt its own face when you double-tap a target.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190347.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190347.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Ailaros wrote:What's the difference, then between the two? The latter is more expensive and puts out less damage.

is more survivable

It's survivability is BETTER, but it's survivability is still terribly poor.

I can't believe I'm having to say this again, but "better" does not mean "good". They are less bad at surviving, but they're still not good at surviving.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190372.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions FnP save, and using those kind of guns to out a 5-man T3 squad is rediculous! Especially when your facing upto 1300 more points of IG mech/infantry. What the medic costs in points he more than makes up for the amount of fire needed to put the sqaud down, especially in a KP mission.

I'm sorry, you've failed to convince me as to why making my units last longer is a bad thing.

CCS w/ 4 x plasma = 110
CCS w/ 3 x plasma + medic = 125

Even the points difference isn't that great. Sorry, but I'll happily take a medic over an extra plasma any day, especially when you consider that not every target you shoot at will get the benefit of BiD so you can re-roll those ones.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190432.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190432.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions fnp ...

Also this is ailros, the guy argued for like 15 pages that you should never take long range antitank in an IG army period .... so take what he says with a huge grain of salt ....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190740.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2190740.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

kill dem stunties wrote:Also this is ailros.... so take what he says with a huge grain of salt ....

I do. That's not to say that everything he says isn't without merit. Sometimes its nice to have someone in a community play devil's advocate, as it stymies a healthy debate and keeps a healthy selection of diversified opinions.

Anyway, back on topic....

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2191005.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2191005.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I do play plasma guns in a chimera and I do use a medic. Do you? Or are you just looking at statistics and point costs and then making assumptions based upon those two factors?

I'll re-iterate: the CCS is a rare commodity. It does things NO OTHER unit in the IG codex can do; namely BiD, FoMT and Advisors. These ablities are worth protecting. Simply saying 'Oh well, I have more' doesn't cut it when 50% of your HQ choices just vapourised itself in your own shooting phase.

I have no idea how you can say a medic does 'not do anything' for a plasma CCS and keep a straight face. Your mile obviously massively varies in comparison to mine.

L. Wrex

I play 4 plasma guns and a plasma pistol on the officer. And when everything else is in a chimera the orders don't really matter, and aside from the orders there isn't much that vets don't do while scoring.

Don't assume people don't know what they are talking about. I gave you in several instances the fact that medics do make the unit last longer, and that it might be useful for protecting a character. But in the situation we are discussing I think you should give in that the medic is a waste, especially if you have multiple chimera squads. Skillful playing will protect that unit far more than the medic, while putting out much more plasma fire. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2191227.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2191227.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:I'm sorry, you've failed to convince me as to why making my units last longer is a bad thing.

It isn't a bad thing. Heck, if I had a way to make all my units more durable for free, I'd do it in a heartbeat, not matter how little it actually helped.

The thing I'm arguing is that the improvement that you get in durability for a squishy little squad is not worth it FOR THE COST.

You're taking a 5-man squad that is less durable than a 5-man space marine squad, and turning it into a more expensive 5-man squad that's still less durable than space marines. If 5 space marines are easy to kill, what makes this command squad with carapace and a medic somehow difficult to kill? Yes, it is definitely possible to create some circumstances where it might hypothetically be nice, but to believe that a 5-man guard squad will somehow become durable just because you gave them FNP is simply delusional.

As such, you are barely inconveniencing your opponent. Are you 30 points inconveniencing him? Will that 30 points inconvenience your opponent more if the basilisk gets upgraded to a manticore, or a russ to an executioner, or an extra three meltaguns are put into your army?

There is serious cost. There is marginal return. Making your units more durable isn't a bad thing, but making them more durable in this particular way is little more than a waste of points.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2192176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2192176.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions and i truely don't think either side is "wrong" or "right".
i don't usually have points left over for such things as Medics because i spent less points on another Plasma instead.
Carapace is even a lower priority. but as mentoned, that's just me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2192195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2192195.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Ailaros wrote:It isn't a bad thing. Heck, if I had a way to make all my units more durable for free, I'd do it in a heartbeat, not matter how little it actually helped.

The thing I'm arguing is that the improvement that you get in durability for a squishy little squad is not worth it FOR THE COST.

See the part of my post where it only costs 15 more points to include a medic over a fourth plasma gunner. Are you seriously going to argue over 15 points?

And its not '30 points = 3 meltaguns' its '100 points = 3 meltaguns' as you need to buy the veteran squad in order to arm them.

L. Wrex

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote: But in the situation we are discussing I think you should give in that the medic is a waste, especially if you have multiple chimera squads. Skillful playing will protect that unit far more than the medic, while putting out much more plasma fire.

No. Side AV of 10 and looooong sides when you are 12" away from the enemy does not a sturdy pillbox make. When that Chimera blows you'll lose 1-2 plasma gunners in the blast alone, reducing your overall shot output by 25-40% alone which, again, could be reduced by the inclusion of a medic.

2 shots. Thats all you get. Two extra shots, which have the potential to roll ones just like every other plasma shot in the squad. The difference between your squad and mine is that, whilst you have a higher damage potential; I have a higher probability of surviving the infinite number of possibilities that a game of 40k throws at you. Possibilties that can't be defined by maths statistics.

L. Wrex]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2192771.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2192771.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions
My top 10 reasons a medic is next to useless the way I run guard.

1. I don’t use special characters. The best use for a medic is to make the CCS that shields the special character last longer, which I don’t need.

2. I use lots of chimeras. Which means it is very hard to get to the side of the CCS chimera. It actually is a fairly sturdy pill box.

3. I use lots of chimers part II. I can’t order my mounted units which means the CCS’s orders are really not that useful to me. Sure there will be some instances where someone gets blown out of their chimera, but ideally all my tanks live (which has happened more than one would think) and then I get no use of the orders at all.

4. A plasma CCS is best at close ranges. Anything that is going to kill a CCS that has rapid fired within 12 inches (where it is best) is going to kill it easily medic or not. This to me means if my opponent really wants that unit dead it will die with only one or two units focused on it. So I need that one, maybe two, turns where it does something to really count.

5. The medic’s ability is completely ignored by a lot of weaponry. Assault cannons, multilasers, auto cannons, missile launchers, plasma guns, meltas, missle pods, scatter lasers, star cannons, demo charges, battle cannons, demolisher cannons, rail gun blasts, virtually any mid strength gun or higher completely blows threw feel no pain for the CCS. There is just too much weaponry out there that ignores feel no pain on T3 models for it to be a serious consideration in my opinion.

6. 4 plasmaguns is statistically better. If you run the math is takes 6 full turns before 3 plasma guns and a medic is better than 4 plasma guns without one. How many times do you really think you are going to be shooting with these guys?

7. If you are going to commit/suicide with any unit, the CCS is probably best. They don’t score, they are cheaper than vets, and their damage output on the first round of shooting is more reliable than a vet squad. In the lists I run the scoring ability of the vets is much more important to keep around than the order abilities of the CCS.

8. With chimeras I can put the CCS where I want it. I’ll put them in cover, it’s free, I can go to ground if need be, it’s virtually the same as FNP, and all I need to worry about is flamers. Yes it requires some planning and good playing, but it’s really not that hard.

9. A medic doesn’t really help a blown up chimera. For a squad of 5 guys 3.33 get wounded. 2.2 don’t make their armor saves. So now with your 4+ feel no pain you pay 30 pts and lower the damage potential of the unit (by a lot) to save one 25pt model. It just doesn’t make sense to me. Your biggest threat when the chimera blows up is being pinned which the medic does nothing for.

10. A medic is expensive. As I have said, 60% and another CCS. 54% of a chimera. 42% of a primarus psyche. 46% of Marbo. 100% of a demo charge. Dropping the medic gets you much closer to getting a lot of other much more useful things.

Like I have said over and over again, a medic has some uses. But they are really limited to a unit without transport, with lots of other units to order, and with a special character. IMO unless you have two of those three things going for you I would pass every time.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2195387.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2195387.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I guess there is no reasoning with some people.

My top 10 reasons a medic is next to useless the way I run guard.

These two statements are incongruous. The way Wrex runs his guard, the medic is useful. They way you do, he is not. Where's the lack of reasoning in that? It's a lot more unreasonable to declare the model utterly useless in any and all circumstances and damn those who disagree to a fiery hell!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2196632.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2196632.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions

Terminus wrote:

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I guess there is no reasoning with some people.

My top 10 reasons a medic is next to useless the way I run guard.

Terminus nailed this one on the head too! and i underlined the point i made above yours. it's not a good mix
for your Playstye, cool. Wrex sees a use and likes them, also cool. i don't think the table is going to open up and swallow
anyone's army if you have a Medic or not....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2196661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2196661.page GMT Re:IG plas vet & medic questions

alarmingrick wrote:

Terminus wrote:
ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:I guess there is no reasoning with some people.

My top 10 reasons a medic is next to useless the way I run guard.

These two statements are incongruous. The way Wrex runs his guard, the medic is useful. They way you do, he is not. Where's the lack of reasoning in that? It's a lot more unreasonable to declare the model utterly useless in any and all circumstances and damn those who disagree to a fiery hell!

If you go back and read the whole thread, I was the one who said it was useful sometimes. Wrex was the one saying it was useful always, which just isn't true.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2198649.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2198649.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions

Ailaros wrote:
- 5 T3 dudes with 5+ no FNP are easy to kill

- 5 T3 dudes with 4+ and with FNP are easy to kill

Is the latter LESS easy to kill? Yes. Is it still easy to kill? Yes.

What's the difference, then between the two? The latter is more expensive and puts out less damage.

I can't really make this any more clear.

If the unit becomes expensive enough I can see a justification for the medic, but the only case where that comes to mind is named HQ like Creed or Straken. Then the squad becomes so expensive I can see the justification for giving up a plasma gun, but the medic is really there to protect the special character rather than the plasma gunners.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2198668.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2198668.page GMT IG plas vet & medic questions
Both of those characters imply running a lot of units on foot. The most powerful thing in the game is something that grants you a re-roll, so I love me some vox and battle standard. Adding a medic, that leaves one slot for a special weapon. With Straken, it's usually a meltagun since I occasionally send him after tanks.

With Creed, who knows, I've used him only a couple of times and didn't bother with a medic since I kept him way back where only weapons that would ignore FNP anyway could reach him. Vox, standard, and a lascannon is what I ended up using. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2199265.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/330549/2199265.page GMT