<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/93.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
I'm new to Fantasy and started a Dark Elf army. At the moment I have:

Master on Cold One
Sorceress on foot
5 Cold One Knights
16 Crossbowmen
16 Spearmen (full command)

I have also tried using a few proxy units as a bolt thrower, Dark Riders and extra spearmen and crossbowmen for larger games.

At the moment I am exclusively playing against a dwarf army and a high elf one. I have lost every game so far (6-7 games) and against high elves have been reasonably competative despite the losses and I think when I get some more units I will be ok.

But Dwarves.....I cant see I am ever going to be able to compete.

I tend to get hammered, horribly, brutally hammered.

He has a couple of units of thunderers, 20 longbeards with a thane, dwarf warriors and a few war machines.

I had one game where everything went perfectly for me dice wise, I managed to get him down to just his thane and 2 other men against 3 full units of mine. He wiped me out with mainly his thane and I couldn't touch him. Just went through all 3 units, probably 35 men in all and I didn't cause a wound. With his equipment he was hitting me on 2's, wounding on 2's no save. I was hitting on 5's, wounding on 6's and he had good saves.

I'm not a "win at all costs, have to win" kinda player but I fear Dwarves are not a good opponent for elves and dont know how many more drubbings I can take before enthusiasm starts to wain

does anyone have any advice for units types or magic items I could try out against Dwarves, or even against high elves?

Thanks]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2175457.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2175457.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves DE with mindrazor can wreck anything that has high armor, and dosen't outnumber and/or strike before them.
Oh and get a hydra.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2175483.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2175483.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves O, and I cant think of anything that would make you hit him of 5s. Re-check that one.

Also his army sounds bigger than yours. Might be the magic items on either side but you need to beef out your army. Make the spearmen 30 strong and get a second unit of them. They aren't to expensive but man for man dwarfs will pound them into the ground.
Unless he regularly uses flaming cannons grab a hydra. It will really help those spearmen kill units of dwarfs and can wether the thunderer fire easily.

How many pts are you playing and what magic items have you doled around?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176020.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176020.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
I'd ask for a full rune listing next time, because that doesn't sound accurate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176086.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
Yeah I am definately gonna get a hydra, sound like they will be nasty.

Whats the reverse ward save? And is Mindrazor a shadow spell?

Thanks]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176267.page GMT Re:Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
Some dwarf players still use the burning rune on their cannons, so thats always a danger too.

In terms of Mindrazor, it is the last spell in the Lore of Shadow, and for anything with high I low S, it is amazing. Stick that on a unit that has ASF and watch the destruction.

I believe the reverse ward save is an item that allows you to use your opponents ward save and they use yours. My Dark Elf book is not with me at the moment and I don't remember it exactly. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176352.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176352.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves str. Basically you get a ward save equal to their str but it fails by rolling over the number instead of below. So against str5 you only fail on 6s. Ruins combat characters days.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176412.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
mikeyboyj wrote:
Whats the reverse ward save? And is Mindrazor a shadow spell?


This is proof that you, indeed, are new to Dark Elves. Pendant of Khaeleth- check it out! Your opponents will love you. It' a ward save that works if you roll equal to or under the strength of the attack. Brutal if coupled with good armor. There's a couple ways around it, but they're fairly specific- things that allow no armor save and are low strength (blood curdling roar), lore of metal, and assorted other spells.

Mindrazor is indeed the the top end Shadow spell.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176432.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176432.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves DE.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176444.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2176444.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
HoverBoy wrote:Generally shadow is the best lore for DE.


It indeed is. You don't even need the high end spells to be effective. Dropping movement, strength or toughness will make your army happy. Cast withering and then go to work with crossbows that wound on 3's.

If you run a backup caster (or another one in your case) you will either want death or metal. Death can snipe out those annoying characters, and has purple sun; while metal will make armies with good armor cry.

Things you may want to add:

Hydra - need I say more?
Shades + Assassin - they eat warmachienes for lunch
a BSB - great for rerolls
More crossbows - they are our best RnF troops because they can parry (HW/S)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2179651.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2179651.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
Combat units need to be larger, as stated above. Boost warriors to 30 man blocks, although 16-20 is fine for your crossbowmen.

Hydras are excellent, but not 100% required. Cold one Chariots (2-3) and Black Guard in a large unit with the Armor Piercing banner (murder) will help kill those tough units. Hydras are probably the cheapest and most effective way to ruin a Dwarf's day - just march up and drop a S5 template all over their beards.

BSBs are excellent, mostly in higher point games. Even in a low point game he could be very survivable on that cold one with a PoK or on foot with the 1+ save. In bigger points upgrade him to a CoB BSB as it will be very resilient to any attempts to kill it that your opponent use (as well as being a great force multiplier).

There are excellent tactics at druchii.net too, its where I started.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2181441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2181441.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
Dwarves get flaming warmachines for only 5 points, and flaming weapons for only 5.

High elves get whole units, and all fighting characters with a 2+ ward against that breath.

Against any other army, hydras are great, but these happen to be 2 of the 3 worse armies to take a hydra against (with daemons/tzeench the 3rd).

Dwarves have a nasty habit of being immune to poison and killing blow, so brunt force is best. I say buy the potion of strength. Base S7 will usually get the job done.

Buy the armor piecing banner for the warriors too. It will pay off.


-Matt

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2183786.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2183786.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves AFAIK since 8th edition only the characters CAN be immune to it, depends on the runic equipment. And since warmachines are vulnerable to poison as well, poison is one of the easiest ways to get a warmachine down. So I don't see why you disapprove of the poison/KB thing...
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2184970.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2184970.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
shades are a must (2 units better ), along with crossbowmen IMO.
the same with dark riders.

shadow is a fantastic option for your sorceres but dark magic is also very useful.

as far as HE are concerned the above options will make your opponent cry.
about dwarfs dont know, i have never faced anyone...

what points are you playing??
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2186174.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2186174.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
Playing about 800 points at the moment but getting a load more stuff for christmas. Will definately be hetting a hydra and a battalion so that should pad things out a bit.

Think I will try out shadow magic next time I play]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2188453.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2188453.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves lvl 4(in larger games)
magic is powerful in this edition, but since you are playing in only 800pts
leave the supreme sorceres for later..]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2188973.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2188973.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
mikeyboyj wrote:Playing about 800 points at the moment but getting a load more stuff for christmas. Will definately be hetting a hydra and a battalion so that should pad things out a bit.

If you do go the route of buying a battalion box, I'd suggest you only make nine of the potential Warriors into Spearmen and the rest into Crossbows. You won't ever really need to field more than a block of 25-30 Spearmen, I tend to keep it to 25. Crossbows, however, are our preferred Core choice so you'll want plenty of them to add to your army.

I find the battalion a bit iffy of a purchase for myself, but at the end of the day it really more depends on your army list. I like Cold One Chariots more than Knights, and I don't really use Corsairs. Other people do use blocks of Knights or Corsairs and have success doing so.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2192874.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2192874.page GMT Re:Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
The basic premise works well against melee tough heavily armored enemies, like dwarves and chaos.
The corsair's front rank will be getting 4 attacks per model with 5 for the champ, and 5 supporting attacks while even that doesn't sound promising against say ironbreakers, use the cauldron to give that unit Killing Blow, and say hello to some kills without armor saves. So should you put the BSB in the corsairs using a block of say 25 corsairs in 5x5 you will see 21 attacks from the front rank, and 5 attacks from the second rank for 26 attacks, and you can reasonably expect using the Hatred Rule to hit with at least 20 or more, then when rolling to wound (if you gave them Kill Blow at the start of round with cauldron) to get at least 3 kills with no armor saves, and possibly 10 or more. If it is a horde of corsairs vs a 5x block of dwarves, that number becomes 29 attacks from the front (7 models at 4 attacks +champ) and 14 supporting attacks... a horde vs horde? 41 attacks in the front rank, and 20 from the two rear ranks, for 61 attacks. Obviously this if somewhat frightening and with numbers like that you can really land killing blows. the advantage to this is that against a weaker opponent corsairs are still pretty great, and you could use the cauldron to grant another extra attack to them, going into even more crazy numbers of attacks at 5 attacks per front model and 6 for champ. They also get pretty good protection vs missiles, and a rule that hurts opponents fleeing. Being cheaper they are also more likely to be steadfast if they somehow lose combat, and there is always the BSB leadership re-rolls which will help the whole army avoid panic.

The Executioners on the other hand are at 6 strength already that being 3 points of armor penetration, and have killing blow already, if they are within 12 inches of your cauldron they are automaticaly always stubborn. If your BsB is a Deathag she can join the corsairs or the executioners giving you tactical flexibility. The cauldron can also be used to grant the exectutioners another attack, going into the possibility of getting 2-3 attacks from each of your executioners in the front and 3-4 from the champ, all at strength 6, Armor penetration 3, killing blow... plus supporting attacks. Since they strike last they will suffer some against chaos due to chaos' great offense, but dwarves aren't the master of inflicting melee casualties usualy... all the same, make sure your unit of executioners in deep enough to get it's full number of attacks.

the Cauldron it'self is a tricky piece to use but it is well defended itself recieving a 4+ ward to all attacks, and 10 toughness vs shooting. Plus it can use it's once per turn power to throw a 5+ ward save on any unit you are worried about being mauled by ranger shots, seige weapons, or melee. if it ever sees combat in a losing game, dont forget that it can give itself extra attacks or killing blow 9though the ward save power doesnt stack for obvious reasons), and it can be a real pain since only 6 models of the enemy unit in melee with it can fight. It also causes lame 8th edition terror, but this will rarely be of use against any army with decent leadership. All this meens it is annoying since even a Cannon will need a 4+ to wound it, and it still gets it'sown 4+ ward.

Bolt throwers should be in any Dark elf army really, as they provide a little extra firepower, but more importantly a way to kill enemy monsters, dragons, and especialy cannons and seige weapons. The fact that the Single bolt does not allow and armor save and that it penetrates ranks, as well as can shoot 6 str 4 AP 3 bolts makes it great for flankshoting, front shotting knights, heavy warriors, and pretty much anything with average hit chances and great wound chances w/o armor saves or at -3 AS. Bolt throwers CAN miss for the whole game every roll, but they CAN and likely WILL deal more heavy casualties to heavy units than your enemy would prefer.

Any Dwarf worth his Gromril will tell you that magic against dwarf antimagic (with things like Spelleater Runes, Runemasters, and Anvils of Doom) can often be a Shutout unless you can feild a Teclis or beefy toady Slann (greatest mages of warhammer) but with dark elf rules (Power of Darkness-Druchii Sorcery any dice # per spell) you can use Sacrificial Dagger and any numer of your spelldice to try and iressistable force KEY Spells through, Like most shadow spells, Mindrazor of Shadow, pit of Shades from Shadow, Purple Sun of Xereus - Soul blight - Doom and Darkness all from Death, or any spell from Metal exept the rarely useful golden hounds. All of these are great against dwarves, IF you can cast them high enough or irresistable them, And all but the Initiative test spells are good against chaos in the same way. but if you come to throw Iressistable Force, be aware that you have roughly a 60% chance to either have your Sorcerress become brain damaged into not being a wizard, or sucked into a chaos rift and being instantly removed... in addition to blowing up possibly quite a few nearby Darkies. Even Still a Single, Well Placed iressistable Force spell can win or alter the whole game, so it's a fair gamble.

Blackguards are the icing on a dark elf cake (frightening image) if you can field a solid block of them they get 2 STR 4 attacks each, Warrior elite rolls allow rerolling missed attacks EVERY round of the game, and they are always stubborn/steadfast. With the support of a battle banner they can realy stop an enemy advance or hold a flank or center in your army, at least for a turn, plus they too can be beefed up with our BSB hydra standard and the cauldron's Effects.

So in summery the beauty of a setup like this is that it is fairly effective against any army, with options for heavy tough enemies and weedy goblins alike... plus your Cauldron, battle standard bearer, and sorcery can be positioned and effective wherever they will be most crucial each game's deployment. War Machines will always be a pain, but if a dwarf uses too few, take the losses where you can most afford them, and use the ward save of the cauldron to deter your adversary's attentions. If they have lots of shooty and Warmachines like the beardy little Dwarves they probably are, you will get pummeled, smashed, and occasionaly blown to bits, but rush all the unit's you can spare to the enemy shooting and crews, good warmachines are worth a lot of points, and thunderers hurt to lose. Don't Forget your bolt throwers and spells that cause a STR or INI test can instantly destroy a warmachine!

This is just a general List strategy, and what exactly you can or choose to feild will vary by points obviously. The important part is making sure you have enough troops on the table to be thick in melee, and options that are as strong as possible for killing anything bigger than you like magic and bolt throwers. Soften em up if you can and if you can't strike with as much force as swiftly as is possible. ---Sidenote Chaos warriors have little ranged capability so are best softened up for as long as possible.

------Other Notes.
A Hydra is sometimes awsome, but it's a pricey toy. As a dwarf player also I will tell you that fighting a hydra can be scary, especialy as it can hit you in the flank with another unit in the front, or eat your shooters and seige weapons with it's great speedof movement... but because of that it will always be the first thing i'll shoot at, and you'd better bring 4 of em if you want to see one in combat against a shooting savy dwarf player.

Aslo dwarves will laugh themselves to death under fire from strength 3 crossbows even with multi shot and armor pierce, so xbows of any kind even shades are a realy bad idea against a dwarf or chaos player, unless you intend to bury them in a rediculous amount of fire. Bring 50 -60 crossbows against such players or none at all if you want them to have an impact. ------>Bolt throwers are the same price as 10 repeater crossbowmen, and far more versitile.

Solid blocks of Warriors can be good with spear rules, especialy if they are under the effect of a helpfull spell like mindrazor. This goes doubly for our previously mentioned Corsairs with staggering numbers of attacks.

I play all of the warhammer armies though i have tinkered the most with Dwarves, Dark Elves, High Elves, Empire, and wood Elves in that order. To aid some of the earlier suggestions Shades and Assassins can realy whoop to kill warmachine crews, but i have never even lost a significant portion of troops to dark elf xbow fire as a dwarf, and they are dammm expensive fodder for a single Organ Gun. Boom X 8: there went 128 points of scouts on the first turn. In all fairness the the organ gun can be as useful as nipples on a breastplate some games, but no good dwarf player will likely deploy in a fashion that will allow scouts to run amock, scout blocking is all too easy. So that is a so-so proposition to me, but there is a lot of other good advice posted, especialy upping the troop numbers in general. Dwarfs also have some tricky advantages in low points games, with the lower firepower of thier enemies they are a tough nut to crack at 800 points. Sure you can kill some, but many will survive. At such low points usualy bolt Throwers and at least one powerfull infantry Block is better, like executioners or corsairs. Toys like Hydras and Cauldrons, Hordes, and real Sorcery should wait until 1500-2000 points, but the key to beating 800 points of dwarves is weathering thier shooting phase, and Smashing them with bolt throwers and strong units that outnumber them hopefully. 2 bolt throwers can do a world of hurt at 800 points, but dwarves at 800 will always be a rough game for most armies. on top of that high Elves new 8th ed rulechanges make them an increadibly tough army to beat, especialy for thier dark cousins. if you are interested you can read my thoughts on that here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/333639.page

I Hope this is helpful.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2263267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2263267.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
HoverBoy wrote:Try lore of shadow, pit of shades makes dwarves cry. And DE with mindrazor can wreck anything that has high armor, and dosen't outnumber and/or strike before them.
Oh and get a hydra.


Agreed. Any spells based on initiative makes for bad times for dwarfs. The lore of metal is also a nasty one as it will effect most of the dwarf army. Plus using high initiative, crossbows, bolt throwers and hydras will help also.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2267688.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2267688.page GMT Re:Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2267877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2267877.page GMT Advice for Dark Elves Vs Dwarves & High Elves
Usually one gets in to my lines, often injured, but they soak up all available shots while I try to make sure they go down. Which means that everything else is happily doing just about whatever it wants...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2268003.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331031/2268003.page GMT