<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG HQ choice. Sometimes she takes the keeper of secrets with dialed down deamon squads. We decided to play a 500 pt round robin tourney(everyone plays everyone at some point) this weekend. I wanted some feedback on the list i threw together.

HQ:
-CCS w/ 3 Meltas: 80
Troops:
-PCS :30
-3x infantry squads (blobbed together) w/ 3 power weapons, 3 grenade launchers and a commissar: 230
-Priest w/ eciscerator (works w/ power blob): 60
-Vets w/ Power Fist, and 3 grenade launchers: 100
Total: 500

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2186867.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2186867.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG CCS, I would probably drop the GL's & Pistol for some Meltaguns/Plasma Guns. GL's are a little too unreliable and you want to take advantage of the BS4.

The PCS I would definitely kit out fully flamer if it is going to be attached to the blob. I would try and get as many flamers and power weapons as possible in your "Power Blob." You will be quite impressed when you see how well the Power Blob does in CC. Dakka-Dakka Member Ailiaros can definitely enlighten here a bit.

In regards to your vets, I would possibly drop them for some HWS & Marbo. Marbo gives you that awesome Demo charge as well as his awesome reserve entrance. Also the HWS will give you a bit of firepower to help with any armored/heavy infantry you face.

Also Vets are a bit of an expensive objective camper, and they are usually used best when meched up with melta. Other than that a Power Blob will do just as well in CC if not better.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2187220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2187220.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG CCS would be overkill since i was goin against orks, and the deamons whose SV is invul. anyway. However, only needing 2+ to kill puts a smile on my face so i think i'll make the switch. But knowing both my opponents, I highly doubt any tanks are making it onto the board.

Ailiaros...lol reading his battle reports was what inspired me to try a blob out in the first place.

I was considering marbo but decided against it since i needed the points for a second troop choice. Besides I gave the Vets some extra armor (greenstuffed) and have yet to get a chance to use them. So, iI was trying to figure them in. Do you think switching the heavy flamer to 3 regular flamers would be better? Or what if i drop the heavy flamer so the PCS can have flamers? Or even strip the vets down to just shotties so i can get marbo?I like the last choice personally

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2187552.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2187552.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG
Th3 Gh0st wrote:Most of the time I'm going against my cousins horde of ork boyz w/ lootas and a tooled up mega-boss or my sisters swarm of deamonettes (20 usually) with the Masque as her HQ choice. Sometimes she takes the keeper of secrets with dialed down deamon squads. We decided to play a 500 pt round robin tourney(everyone plays everyone at some point) this weekend. I wanted some feedback on the list i threw together.

So orks and daemons... k.

Th3 Gh0st wrote:HQ:
-CCS w/ 3 Grenade Launchers, and a Plasma Pistol: 75

Ok, so... with most lists you wanna write with some sort of consistency. So here you have a CCS, in it you have S6 AP4 at 2' range, and a S7 AP2 at 1' range, and a S3 AP- at 2' range. Now lasguns obviously don't matter cause they never do anything anyway. Basically, when you shoot someone like a space marine, those three grenade shots are not nearly as effective as they don't have enough AP like the plasma pistol, but when you shoot something 2' away that only needs SP4 then you waste the points you spent on the pistol cause it isn't being used effectively. If you keep squads consistent with their weapons, then you get the most bang for your points. At low point games it is extra important that you use points efficiently. Drop the pistol. (Also even if you didn't have the GLs, pistols are pretty much gak anyway. ALSO ALSO the last thing you want is for your plasma pistol to backfire and kill your CCS, never give your officers plasma.)
Th3 Gh0st wrote:Troops:
-PCS :30
-3x infantry squads (blobbed together) w/ 3 power weapons, 3 Flamers, and a commissar: 230
-Priest w/ eciscerator (works w/ power blob): 60

A 30 man blob at 500 points is probably a little excessive... but you definitely built it right. Personally, I prefer to use a Regmental Standard in my CCS instead of buying a commissar. Commisars and Regmental Standards will both get you your rerolls on morale, except the flag won't require you to shoot your officers in the head... costing you your power weapons. Power weapons being the thing that makes infantry blobs dangerous. Flamers are great for a charge just before someone assaults you, but keep in mind... most assault troops have fleet, or some other ability your infantry does not... meaning you might never get your chance to set someone on fire, as they will always be out of range. Priests are GARBAGE. Because they are ICs they can be targeted in melee seperate of the blob. Which means you bought this nice and squishy priest and a big expensive sword... just to have him get killed first, losing his points, weapons, and bonuses. Drop the priest.
Th3 Gh0st wrote:-Vets w/ Shotguns Heavy Flamer, Power Fist, and Demo charge: 135

Vets are great, shotguns are gak. Shotguns are ONLY better if you assault someone with your vets. Frankly, if you are playing daemons and orks... you will NEVER win in melee, even with your blob. You play IG, it is a shooty army, not a melee army. Your strength is being able to shoot down the enemy troops, and then once they are beaten and broken... you finish them with a strong melee. Lose the shotguns, they are going to cost you kills. Heavy flamer is 20pts... 4 flamers are 20pts. 4 flamers are WAY more effective than 1 heavy flamer. For the points, heavy flamers are never worth putting on your infantry. Just take 3 flamers in the vets and call it a day. Powerfist is ok, but in a 10 man squad... you are likely not going to be able to use it more than once or twice. I would recommend not gearing up your vets for melee, the squad is too small to make it work. Blobs work, because you have 27 men between the enemy and your sergeants. In a vets squad they are more expensive, and too easy to kill in melee. Democharge is great fun, but with 6" range it is garbage unless you have a solid transport like a Valk or Vendetta.

Th3 Gh0st wrote:Right, so I figured the vet squad w/ the demo charge and Heavy flamer could A) Demo charge, and burn anything that bunches up before charging in to finish whats left(hopefully). OR B) babysit an objective with the CCS nearby.
The blob was going to get into melee with whatever came its way, and either die slowly enough to allow the vets to hunt the rest down before holding an objective OR allow the vets to soften the deadliest targets up and then charge the blob in to try for the wipe (assuming the vets did what they were tooled to do and inflicted crippling casualties). Tweaks, and tips welcome

So you need to make your army WAY more shooty. Your advantage is range, big guns, and big artillery. Blobs are good for protecting your big guns, and soaking melee assaults. I would recommend losing one squad from your platoon, and have a 20man blob. Drop the commisar, the priest, pick up a standard. Utilize orders to keep your vets and blob working. Make the vets more medium range specialized, and get them a Valkyrie with multiple rocket pods. That will handle your ork and daemon problems fine. Alternitively, you could also get two chimera, for your CCS and vets. That would work well too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2187740.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2187740.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG
I'd get rid of all the grenade launchers and the plasma pistol in the CCS and one of your flamers and give your CCS 3x melta. Once koptaz and buggies start coming around, you'll be thankful.

The rest is nice, but I'd highly recommend taking 3x special weapons with the vets. A powerfist on a non-stubborn squad won't go as far as you'd like, and a demo charge is just a single shot (use Marbo if you want to take 1 demo charge in your army), while dropping both of those for 3x plasma guns will be dead killy against trukks and some of the nastier demons.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2187806.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2187806.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG
Ailaros wrote:but meltaguns still beat armor (nobz, bikers, etc.) and insta-kill T4, neither of which a grenade launcher does.

I'd get rid of all the grenade launchers and the plasma pistol in the CCS and one of your flamers and give your CCS 3x melta. Once koptaz and buggies start coming around, you'll be thankful.

The rest is nice, but I'd highly recommend taking 3x special weapons with the vets. A powerfist on a non-stubborn squad won't go as far as you'd like, and a demo charge is just a single shot (use Marbo if you want to take 1 demo charge in your army), while dropping both of those for 3x plasma guns will be dead killy against trukks and some of the nastier demons.


<3 Ailaros.....in a total hetero-way of course.

I would have to agree with the SWS, although I have become quite a fan of some HWS with 3x ML's. Especially with some orders, they really get the job done almost as good as my SW LF's.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2188024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2188024.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG
Ailaros wrote:but meltaguns still beat armor (nobz, bikers, etc.) and insta-kill T4, neither of which a grenade launcher does.

I'd get rid of all the grenade launchers and the plasma pistol in the CCS and one of your flamers and give your CCS 3x melta. Once koptaz and buggies start coming around, you'll be thankful.

The rest is nice, but I'd highly recommend taking 3x special weapons with the vets. A powerfist on a non-stubborn squad won't go as far as you'd like, and a demo charge is just a single shot (use Marbo if you want to take 1 demo charge in your army), while dropping both of those for 3x plasma guns will be dead killy against trukks and some of the nastier demons.

Meltaguns are fine against armor, except that daemons certainly won't have any at 500pts, and if orks do, it is a bunch of Av10 trukks, or maybe a single Av14 front only battlewagon and you can just go shoot at its side or back armor no problem. Melta is far more expensive than other weapons which are more likely to be used. The idea is cost to benefit ratio. Why spend extra points on a meltagun when other cheaper weaponry will work just as good? Taking further consideration into the range of melta weapons, and you have some serious issues. Once you are in melta range, they are in assault range. Max you get 3 melta kills, and then lose a VERY expensive squad to an assault. Therefore, not only is melta the worse weapon for the job, it costs twice as much as the better options.

As for melta against koptas, because of the koptas' cover bonuses, it is near impossible take them down anyway. The most important aspect of taking down koptas is somehow getting rid of their cover save, so flamer weapons, hydra autocannons (sorta), and infantry based weapons combined with orders are more important there regardless of what weapon you take. Yes you could 1 shot a kopta with S8, but at that range you are probably screwed anyway... since koptas have turboboost and scouts... they can move 4' on the first turn... if you even had a change to hit the kopta with a weapon with such limited range you would still need to couple it with orders. Also since melta cost 2x more than GLs, you could say that for every melta you take, you could have shot the kopta 2 times with grenades which is essentially as effective. So again, melta is the wrong weapon for the job... and more expensive.

As for buggies, the are just too easy to take down, no matter what you take. Av10 open-topped, with only 1 weapon? Any hit on them will knock them out of the game. There is no reason at all to waste a melta shot on a buggie.

Again, plasma is not the best weapon here. If you want to kill a trukk, you DO NOT want to kill it at 2' range, which is cut to 1' range if you happen to move your squads around (which I recommend trying to stay mobile). Orks can launch themselves out of exploding trukks, with the chance of a ramshackle, the disembark, move, run, and fleet assault (from the WAAAGH!) you are likely going to be covered in orks before the end of the round if you are trying to blow up their transports at 2' away. Again, losing a VERY expensive squad in an assault. If you want to take down a trukk effectively, you should hit it at 3'+ away with things like autocannon (which are also S7 AND cheaper AND have longer range than plasma). That way you still have a turn between you and the ork assault after you break the transport... allowing you to properly mulch the orks that were IN the trukk before they can assault. So again, plasma is not the best weapon for the job, is more expensive, and can kill your own dudes.

As for plasma against daemons, that's an even bigger waste of points than the melta. Most daemons have high invulnerable saves... not armor saves. So except for a few expensive special upgrades, the plasmagun's ap2 is useless anyway. For the points, you are better off buying 3 GLs and getting 3x S6 shots instead of 2x S7 shots, that could also backfire, and that cannot shoot at 2' if the squad moves (where GLs can). Since daemons don't care about AP2, and unless the orks bring Megaarmor, the orks couldn't care either... Wrong weapon, expensive, kills own guys... etc.

Each weapon in the armory has its place. Some are more commonly used, but each one has its place. Some weapons are good specifically because they are cheap which lets you take a lot of them. Not every weapon in your army has to be S8 or AP2. Sometimes cheap weapons are just as acceptable, and because they are cheaper it allows you to take more of something else somewhere else in your list. This game is a lot like rock paper scissors. Some weapons are better at defeating some opponents than others, always going with the biggest and most expensive weaponry is not a guaranteed way to win every battle. Against horde armies those weapons simply do not do the job.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2189660.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2189660.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG
Lt Lathrop wrote:Why spend extra points on a meltagun when other cheaper weaponry will work just as good?

Because cheaper weaponry DOESN'T work just as good.

Lt Lathrop wrote: Once you are in melta range, they are in assault range.

Once you're in FRF range or plasma range or flamer range, you're also in assault range. Better to actually kill stuff before they assault you than wind up in assault range anyways having done fewer casualties.

Plus, range is a matter for movement on the field, not list building.

Lt Lathrop wrote:Max you get 3 melta kills, and then lose a VERY expensive squad to an assault.

It only costs 10 or 15 points more (only 5 if you're talking about a PIS) does "very expensive - 5 points = "cheap"?

Lt Lathrop wrote:Therefore, not only is melta the worse weapon for the job, it costs twice as much as the better options.

Worse for CERTAIN jobs. Speficifically, thinning out hordes at extremely close range. It costs twice as much precisely because it's the better option in certain dangerous circumstances.

Lt Lathrop wrote:As for melta against koptas, because of the koptas' cover bonuses, it is near impossible take them down anyway.

So instead of taking weapons which can one-shot them, you advocate putting your head between your knees and praying?

Lt Lathrop wrote:As for buggies, the are just too easy to take down, no matter what you take. Av10 open-topped, with only 1 weapon? Any hit on them will knock them out of the game. There is no reason at all to waste a melta shot on a buggie.

Two thirds of the time you hit a buggy with a krak grenade you stand no chance of destroying it. "One hit will knock them out" is far from true.

The reason you use buggies is because, unlike grenade launchers, you do actually kill them dead most of the time a single hit lands on it.

Lt Lathrop wrote: If you want to kill a trukk, you DO NOT want to kill it at 2' range, which is cut to 1' range if you happen to move your squads around (which I recommend trying to stay mobile). Orks can launch themselves out of exploding trukks, with the chance of a ramshackle, the disembark, move, run, and fleet assault (from the WAAAGH!) you are likely going to be covered in orks before the end of the round if you are trying to blow up their transports at 2' away.

So... your solution to trukks is... to put your head between your knees and pray?

Lt Lathrop wrote: As for plasma against daemons, that's an even bigger waste of points than the melta. Most daemons have high invulnerable saves... not armor saves.

Yes, against demons, plasma isn't as good. Of course, it actually forces them to MAKE those invul saves, unlike some other weapons...

Lt Lathrop wrote: Some weapons are good specifically because they are cheap which lets you take a lot of them.

Some weapons aren't effective. To counter this they're cheap. They're not cheap enough to justify their killing power, though, which makes them both ineffective AND inefficient. Don't know why one would advocate for such weapons.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2191050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2191050.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG psc. Plasma or melta kills the trukk, and flamers kill the boyz same turn.

Against demons and the pesky invuln save: don't build a list to fight one opponent. Build it to fight any opponent. So the plasma might not be the cheapest bang for the buck against demons, but it's a hell of a lot more versatile then GL's.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2191910.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2191910.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG 1. gave the CCS 3 meltas, decided it is in fact better to take advantage of their better BS.
2. Gave the platoon 3 GL's to try to add extra hit into killing things before they hit into me, and finally
3.ditched the shotguns on the vets and gave them GL's to have the option of a) shooting clusters of troops, or b) knocking of lightly armored vehicles.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2193169.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2193169.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG GL's on the Vets isn't taking advantage of their BS either. There are much better weapons to take, especially Plasma or Melta. I am a personal fan of Melta, but Rapid fire plasma is just priceless against MEQs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2193322.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2193322.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG pw on commisar, meltas in vets, and flamers in pcs. 4 flamers in a pcs can take down a 20 boyz squad. I took out a 20 kroot and 10 kroot hound unit with a pcs flamer unit. I got 52 hits on the unit, and 40 wounds.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2193338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/331591/2193338.page GMT 500 pt meat shiel-er...um IG PCS 3 flamers, past that I like the way this list looks especially since i know who I am going against and whats likely to be brought to the table. I appreciate all the help, and will definitley take what i got from here and apply it to when I need to be prepared for all comers. Thnx again
-Gh0st
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