http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net HQ: Belial, Master of the Deathwing 130

HQ: Terminator Librarian 145

Troops: Deathwing Termies (3x Storm Bolter/Power fist, 1x Storm Bolter/Power Sword, 1x Assault Cannon/Power Fist) 245

Troops: Deathwing Termies (2x Twin Lightning Claw, 1x Storm Bolter/Powerfist, 1x Storm Bolter/Power Sword, 1x Assault Cannon/Power Fist) 245

Troops: Deathwing Termies (As Above, but with 1x Heavy Flamer/Powerfist rather than the Assault Cannon) 220

Heavy Support: Land Raider Crusader w/ Extra Armor 265

Heavy Support: Land Raider Godhammer (Standard) 250

Total: 1500

Not quite sure how I would play this; probably Deathwing Assault the Heavy Flamer Squad (maybe with librarian). The other assault-ish squad goes in the LRC w/ Belial. Shooty squad goes with the other LR. Main purpose is resilience; make the army ridiculously tough to kill off. Primarily for use in friendly games vs. footslogging Space Wolves, Slaneesh CSM, and Blood Angels DoA. I didn't include any Thunder Hammers/Storm Shields because a). I don't have any models for them and b). Dark Angels storm shields only give a 4++ in CC, so aren't as good as SM, SW, BA, etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2206329.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2206329.page GMT
Things to change about the list.
I might suggest changing out the librarian for a venerable dreadnought with a plasma cannon and close-combat arm (same cost). The amount of terminators and regular marines you can fry with the plasmacannon is going to be very helpful at stopping those foot-slogging SW, CSM, and blood angels with feel no pain. Venerable will give you more survivability as well. Just stick him in the back and let him shoot away. If he loses the cannon, run him in against something that cannot hurt him easily and tie up some troops or challenge an objective.

I'd get rid of the extra armor on the LRC because power of the achine spirit will still allow you to move 6" and fire a weapon at BS2. I'd use the 15 pts elsewhere to upgrade some termies, or to put towards the dreadnought somehow. Also, you could give a chainfist to each terminator squad which may help with some anti-tank, which is a definate weakness of DW.

For the terminators I'd suggest this:

First Squad: Excellent, but perhaps give a model a chainfist with 5 of the points from removing the extra armor.

Squad 2: Make the pfist on a model a chainfist(?)

Squad 3: Make this a Close-combat squad. Have them all be Lightning Claw marines and give the flamer a chainfist (for if you get assaulted by a dreadnought etc). Put them in the LR or LRC where they can charge out and put some hurt on people. The mass firepower from the LRC should be plenty to help them whittle down a larger squad. Also, don't charge until you are absolutely sure you will win the combat. Stay inside the LRC and whittle away until the time is right. AV 14 is hard to crack, especially is you use cover wisely for those vehicle cover saves.

Another option would be to make a "shooty" squad and an "assaulty squad." swap out the two TLC termies in squad 2 for the two SB wielding termies. having the options to mix-match weapons is always a plus, but sometimes it can just make the squad mediocre at everything, instead of stellar at one thing. The great thing with DW is that depending on your opponent you can switch them around however you need to!

Now, where to put Belial is the real question. I'd say put him with the assaulty squad in the LRC and give him the TLC or TH/SS option (for some survivability an anti-tank). OR put a shooty squad in the LRC with him and put the assault squad in a regular land raider (both have assault ramps so you can still charge out of the vehicle) and give Belial the sword and SB option. Set them on an objective with the LRC as some close-range fire support and DARE your opponent to come within that 24" bubble of shooting Hell you just made. Then, if worst comes to worst, load them back up in the LRC before you get charged and roll out to re-deploy or charge w/o getting whittled down yourself.

Overall, my advice is to be SMART with the army and pick your battles. Only engage in battles you know you can win. Use the firepower of the Land Raiders and dreadnought to whittle down your opponent and focus on ONE area of his army. Destroy the most immediate threat to your AV 14 land raiders ASAP and not much can kill you (dreadnought perfect for picking off devastator squads with a well-placed plasma cannon blast). Only charge into combat when it is absolutely necessary and you know you can win. Also, use cover to give your termies cover saves against anything AP2 or 1. 5+ is not that great when you are taking lots of them. Try to stay out of LOS of as much small arms fire as possible when you are out of the Land Raiders. 2+ saves only go so far, and remember that your squads are only 5 men strong, its easy to see wounds stack up VERY quickly when each man has to make 3-5 saves a piece/ turn sometimes. Pick your fights, time your charges, guage your distances, and be tactical and you can do pretty well with DW, no matter how many people may hate on the DA codex.

Hope that helps!

-VardenV2]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2206722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2206722.page GMT
HQ- Beliel w/ TLC 130

Elite- Venerable Dread w/ PC and DCCW 145

Troop- Deathwing Termies (2x SB/PF, 1x SB/CF, 1x SB/PW, 1x Assault Cannon/PF) - 250

Troop- Deathwing Termies (2x SB/PF, 1x SB/CF, 1x SB/PW, 1x Assault Cannon/PF) - 250

Troop- Deathwing Termies (3x TLC, 1x SB/PW, 1x Heavy Flamer/CF) - 225

Heavy Support- Land Raider Crusader - 250

Heavy Support- Land Raider Standard - 250

Total- 1500 Points]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2207132.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2207132.page GMT LR. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2207669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2207669.page GMT AoBR Tactical Squads, One Squad of Veterans (a few bolters that I was planning as counts-as combi-meltas, 2 PW/BP, and one ML), 1 Rhino, 1 Predator (Autocannon w/ TL Las), 1 Hellfire Dreadnought (Assault Cannon/Missile Launcher), 1 Scout Squad (Armed w/ CCW/BP), and one misc. HQ that can be either a Company Master or a counts-as Chaplain. Although I was considering purchasing an additional dread for the Plasma-DCCW platform (I was thinking of that before I even wrote the list), I am hoping not to put any more money into my Dark Angels.
Note: So that I'm not judged prematurely by any marauding WYSIWYG purists, I'm noting that the veterans w/ the 'counts as' guns are distinct from the rest of the army by virtue of being, I believe, from 3rd Edition, making it easy to tell them apart from the marines with normal bolters. They also have a modified paint scheme to identify them as veterans.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2209374.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2209374.page GMT
Beliel and chap/lib.

I ran a 1850 list for a few years with 6 5 man term squads 2 hq'a. All shooty.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2209400.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2209400.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2209516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2209516.page GMT tbh). If you are going to spend money, then I do think Dakkafang's suggestion would be good. Lots of termie squads is great. DW assault them even better. When they catch squads in a crossfire it's goodnight!

Also, bear in mind that although DW terminators are badass in melee compared to tau (everything is!) but they are going to be best at a close-range firefight. Because they will get easily outnumbered due to their squad size, make sure you only engage in CC when you are sure you can win, or need to pull off some crazy feat (like blowing up a vehicle etc). Terminators with assault cannons and SBs that are in cover can pretty much wreck havoc at 12-24" with shooting.

-VardenV2]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2209996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2209996.page GMT
HQ- Beliel w/ TLC 130

Elite- Venerable Dread w/ PC and DCCW 145

Troop- Deathwing Termies (2x SB/PF, 1x SB/CF, 1x SB/PW, 1x Assault Cannon/PF) - 250

Troop- Deathwing Termies (2x SB/PF, 1x SB/CF, 1x SB/PW, 1x Assault Cannon/PF) - 250

Troop- Deathwing Termies (2x SB/PF, 1x SB/CF, 1x SB/PW, 1x Assault Cannon/PF) - 250

Troop- Deathwing Termies (3x TLC, 1x SB/PW, 1x Heavy Flamer/CF) - 225

Heavy Support- Land Raider Crusader - 250

Total Points -1500

Drop the Land Raider Standard for another squad of Deathwing. Assault Squad goes w/ Beliel in the LRC and attacks from the outset. Two of the shooty squads Deathwing Assault in on Turn 1, while the third deploys normally in objectives to hold anything near the board edge or comes in from DS reserves in KP games. Might have issues versus vehicle spam but should do ok in combined arms engagements or vs. infantry. I'd need one more Deathwing Squad too, but I should be able to handle that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2210288.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2210288.page GMT AV will be very difficult to crack. W/o any high Str weapons besides power fists, tanks could wreck havoc. Fortunately, there isn't much that is AP2 out there but still. Having the Land Raider's TWLasCannons is nifty. You could experiment with where you like Belial. If you like him as a shooting role, I'd say Deep strike him or deploy him with a shooty squad so you can use a regular land raider for a little extra Anti-tank. Either that, or give the dreadnought a lascannon (although i LOVE plasma becaus eit annihilates anything Space Marine related with ease). I say, experiment a little and see what you like best.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2210503.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2210503.page GMT
1. Landraider spam is very hit/miss. I got tired of Deathwing for this reason. It was basically playing "can the opponent kill landraiders?" It also made for some relatively boring games. I sat back and attempted to kill the really hardcore terminator busting stuff. Once that was dead I charged in. Which leads to point two:

2. Deathwing are a shooting army. You cannot rely on close combat to win games. You want to avoid close combat versus most opponents unit you are ready for it. Hoards will overwhelm terminators and most armies have bad asses that can crunch your squads before you get an attack in.

3. The Apothecary is your friend. The apothecary is pretty essential. You can even ignore a failed cover or invulnerable save. Absolutely 100% take an apothecary.

4. Wound allocation isn't as good as people make it out to be, but you should do it. I would suggest equipping as many terminators in each squad as possible with different weapons. 1 Sergent with power weapon and storm bolter, 1 special (assault cannon or cyclone missile launcher), 1 Sb and Pf, 1 SB and chainfist, and maybe 1 lightening claws. Storm shield and thunder hammer are worthless.

5. I am actually leaning toward Deathwing assault as the way to win with Deathwing. It's not great, but it's better than the rock-paper-scissors game that is LR spam.

I want Deathwing to be good, but they are in for an uphill battle every game they play in. To be truely competitive you have to include other things that don't fit the fluff (bikes, speeders) or go Loganwing. It's sad but true. If you want a fun game, then they can be. Following the fluff of only Termies, Landraiders, and Dreds is a tough game to play.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2211591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/332540/2211591.page GMT