<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/7.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
The only thing I usually think of when he says it, is that I really don't think the two games are all that simmilar. Sure they are table top, but the whole premise of play in WM/Horde seems very unique imo.

thoughts?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2344627.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2344627.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
I do stand behind the Warmachine/Hordes rules as being very tight in their interactions, and very clear cut as to when things are in effect. A lot less is left to interpretation than in 40K.

However, as you mentioned, they are two different styles of games, with 40K being more about larger armies and mass combat, while WM/H is a smaller sized game, with more attention to individual model actions. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2344669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2344669.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
I never played MK I but there were some weird things with throw chains that let you move your units much further up field then they were supposed to. Those are gone now, except for the Gators but they have their own issues to deal with. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2344674.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2344674.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules WM/H mk2 that has been common with so many GW rules and codex releases. Deffrollas, Doom of Malanti, WBB during Sweeping Advance... it just doesn't exist in WM/H.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2344756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2344756.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules IMO) is they spell out what happens when you have opposing effects, how timing works, and the preassumption that RAW IS RAW.

As far as a broken, overpowered rule, nothing immediately comes to mind. There are powerful combos that are difficult to hard to defend against, but nothing like the fun of a Kroot line blocking the entrance to the board.

Valid rule questions are dealt with on the PP boards fairly quickly for the most part. There were some delays last year with getting a ruling on how Kara Sloan's feat worked and if the Behemoth's sub-cortex was changed or was supposed to still work like it did in Mk1, but those are few and far between. Rulings aren't coming down to "roll off" or "buy more stuffs".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2345088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2345088.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Gr3y wrote:I never played MK I but there were some weird things with throw chains that let you move your units much further up field then they were supposed to. Those are gone now, except for the Gators but they have their own issues to deal with.

To be fair, that was rules working as intended, rather than an exploit. See numerous mentions of throwing your own Drakhun in NQ strategy articles.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2346699.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2346699.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules 40k in general!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2346795.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2346795.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Phototoxin wrote:I find warmahordes a bit formulaic compared to 5th edition or 40k in general!


Example?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2348361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2348361.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
...and, all games become formulaic if you play them enough.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2348539.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2348539.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Devilsquid wrote:
Phototoxin wrote:I find warmahordes a bit formulaic compared to 5th edition or 40k in general!


Example?


Generally that's the complaint of people who'd rather throw 150 models on the table and roll dice until they go away again. WarmaHordes certainly is a more rigorous/regimented game simply because it's more unforgiving. 40k is more laissez faire as you can still be considered "playing" as long as you have a model on the table.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2348623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2348623.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
So is WM/H broken? Sometimes. But they patch regularly and often. If GW was as player friendly... these boards probably wouldn't need to exist. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2348687.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2348687.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Devilsquid wrote:
Phototoxin wrote:I find warmahordes a bit formulaic compared to 5th edition or 40k in general!


Example?


When you try to do something in Warmachine/Hordes you follow the same core mechanic and resolution structure. Everything has rules that work and are clear. See?! Formulaic as all get out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349037.page GMT Re:40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules 40K: The Hellpit that is YMDK when the new codex comes out with the inevitable vague and poorly defined rules.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349082.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349082.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Gr3y wrote:
Devilsquid wrote:
Phototoxin wrote:I find warmahordes a bit formulaic compared to 5th edition or 40k in general!


Example?


When you try to do something in Warmachine/Hordes you follow the same core mechanic and resolution structure. Everything has rules that work and are clear. See?! Formulaic as all get out.


I HATE when that happens.

Oh wait, no I don't.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349150.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349150.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules I hate playing games where I don't have a rules argument every 10 minutes.

Why should I be able to concentrate on playing when there are fabulous arguments to be had instead?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349213.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349213.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules 40K (which is notorious for making people rage over whose rule set is more accurate) but not perfect...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349230.page GMT Re:40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules They said that you always know what the outcome of rules interactions will be.
There are very very few cases of fuzzy interpretation in WM/H rules.
There are also a few cases of some combination of abilities being more powerful than is balanced.

One thing is sure, if something is perceived as broken in WM/H, the writers are either happy with it as is, or are looking at ways to fix it.
What they are not doing is ignoring it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349271.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules WM/H is PP is much much faster about the army books. So its not all about everyone flocking to the latest escalated codex for several months.

They got their army books out one right after the other on a very tight schedule. And in doing so still maintained game balance as no one codex has any sort of obvious bias over the others.

Also- when they do a major revamp of their rules- they dont just say 'Heres a new edition, and some figs in a box!' they make the trial rules available to everyone for several months and WANT feedback. Then they make tweaks and put the TESTED final product on the shelves.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349595.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349595.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules 40K game: I'm glad that in WM/H, if i hit you with something big enough, your model is going to die. If your ARM 15 warrior gets hit with my Juggernaut's POW 19 axe, it's dead. No rolling a 1 to wound, or other such nonsense.


I like that the rules are tight. that when there's confusion, i pop open the index, look for the relevant section, and 95% of the time find the answer i'm looking for. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2349708.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules GW's end is they treat the rules as a sort of goofy half-framework for your buddies to nod to once in awhile while you throw dice at each other, while PP set out to actually make a consistent set of rules for a competitive tabletop miniatures game.

GW's setup of "Which writer or two are free for the next few months, let's give them pretty much unrestricted control of what the next few years of this army/rules edition will look like" approach to design is also completely contrary to PP's methods.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2350952.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2350952.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Mistress of minis wrote:Another apect about WM/H is PP is much much faster about the army books. So its not all about everyone flocking to the latest escalated codex for several months.

They got their army books out one right after the other on a very tight schedule. And in doing so still maintained game balance as no one codex has any sort of obvious bias over the others.

Also- when they do a major revamp of their rules- they dont just say 'Heres a new edition, and some figs in a box!' they make the trial rules available to everyone for several months and WANT feedback. Then they make tweaks and put the TESTED final product on the shelves.


One year. They put out the Warmachine MKII book last January, and this month they put out the last army book. That's two main rules books and eleven "Codexes" in one year. How Awesome would Warhammer be if GW could do that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2351855.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2351855.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
In 40k, armies like Necrons and Daemonhunters suffer to a degree, and many units like Possessed or Chaos Spawn are unplayable, which is why 40k is broken. And Devilsquid's point about stat vs stat is also a key development, WM/H is a lot more reliable when it comes down to dice rolls.

However, I won't explicitly say WM/H is better, because IMHO it still isn't. Yeah, it's a solid ruleset, with little to no rules debates, but honestly YMDC has tons of things in which people try to abuse RAW and RAI to get their units to do stupid things.

A problem with WM/H though is that, just like 40k, once in a while you'll have units that are just meh compared to the new stuff, (I.E. Winter Guard before they got attachments, the current Assault Kommandos, Reeves of Orboros, etc.) which PP tries to usually fix by throwing in unit attachments/weapon attachments, meaning that sometimes to be effective you'll need to shell out a chunk of points on what's effectively a meh unit on 'roids.

For example, if I want to run a Winter Guard unit effectively, I need to spend a minimum of 8-10 points, which may take up a significant amount of my army. It's really rare, and I'm sure someone will quote this and tell me I'm some sort of psuedo-internet slow who doesn't worship PP as some sort of wargaming overlords, but it does happen every now and then.

But, again, the reason it's considered solid is due to the constant clarifications on rules. When GW has an ambiguous rule, they don't really "officially" fix it, they send out an FAQ. Why they don't just fix it is beyond me, really...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2351896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2351896.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules TFG, Zealots, and Praetorians, for instance. And really, that's probably the way it should be: While I'd like to pay 4-6 for my Exemplar Errants, it probably wouldn't be particularly balanced. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2351966.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2351966.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
And the thing is that even with the minimum units Warcaster buffs/feats can make them much better than they are...

Which is kinda why 40k is a bit less... interesting, I suppose. Much less synergy. I just don't wanna haet 40k though, great game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2352088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2352088.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Cryonicleech wrote:
And the thing is that even with the minimum units Warcaster buffs/feats can make them much better than they are...


That's balance. Right there. That focus or fury going towards that unit leaves less resources for your 'caster or 'lock to excel and do their thing.

There are three resource mechanics at play here:

Points: Higher point cost units tend to be more self sufficient. My 10 point full Long Gunner unit is a threat all by itself. Especially compared to your six point Winter Guard. However I'm paying for that efficiency by sucking up almost a quarter of a 35 point list.

Focus/Fury: I need that to boost my ARM, run my 'jacks or transfer damage. While I saved a chunk of points and can now field a larger force, I have to be more selective in how I manage it as I have additional drain on my resources. Do I buff up that brick of infantry and let one of my 'jacks go hungry? Or do I feed the 'jack and leave them exposed? Let's get tactical up in this piece!

Activation: Because each unit activates and resolves its actions separately I need to think carefully about which order I do things in. Units that require non upkeepable spells require me to active my 'caster/'lock first. That means I need to hand out my buffs, cast my spells, and maybe beat some face at the top of my turn, leaving my most powerful tool unable to react if the situation changes later in my turn sequence. Maybe that unit that I just buffed whiffed their attacks and damage. If I counted on them to keep charge lanes clear then I now have no way to extract my commander. The best I can hope is to either survive the coming assault or move something into position to eat the attack for me. I've won and lost games because units were activated in the wrong sequence.

Taking the demand on these resources into account I think PP has done a positively stellar job in costing their models. Yeah, maybe pistol wraiths are a little over costed, and maybe Triumph should be a point cheaper for what it does, but about 95% of the time you can see why something is a 2 point solo or a unit is 4/6 instead of a 3 point solo or a 6/10 unit. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2352249.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2352249.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Gr3y wrote:
Taking the demand on these resources into account I think PP has done a positively stellar job in costing their models. Yeah, maybe pistol wraiths are a little over costed, and maybe Triumph should be a point cheaper for what it does, but about 95% of the time you can see why something is a 2 point solo or a unit is 4/6 instead of a 3 point solo or a 6/10 unit.


I really think this is a vindication of the change to the points system. It becomes much less opaque; you can actually see what is a bit to expensive rather than question whether a solo needs to change in points +/-5-10 points.

The tack-on-UA solution to making a unit decent is also only half the picture, I think. I am currently running a 35pts Amon list with an ungodly amount of light jacks (I think I may have found an use for the Vigilant in my meta, oh my) and a Reclaimer for that extra Focus oomph on the feat turn. Depending on the exact build, I include a 6 or 10 man TFG unit without the UA. These guys are not really meant to be what a 10 man TFG+UA unit can be at peak efficiency: they are meant to die at a decent pace (they Shieldwall up if faced by multiple model killing spells like Chain Lightning or AOE's, thus demanding that my opponent actually devote resources to killing them rather than just bump a bunch of them off with impunity), cover from models attempting to sneak in between my models to run interference, provide souls for that Reclaimer, and if they are still around in the late game, pick off things that are in the way for the Dervish jumping jack circus assasination run. This 4 or 6 pts unit this is a bit different from what the 6+2pts TFG do in, say an eFeora list. But no other Protectorate unit can do what they do at that price.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2352338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2352338.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Cryonicleech wrote:However, I won't explicitly say WM/H is better, because IMHO it still isn't. Yeah, it's a solid ruleset, with little to no rules debates, but honestly YMDC has tons of things in which people try to abuse RAW and RAI to get their units to do stupid things.


Emphasis mine.

Cryonicleech wrote:
A problem with WM/H though is that, just like 40k, once in a while you'll have units that are just meh compared to the new stuff, (I.E. Winter Guard before they got attachments, the current Assault Kommandos, Reeves of Orboros, etc.) which PP tries to usually fix by throwing in unit attachments/weapon attachments, meaning that sometimes to be effective you'll need to shell out a chunk of points on what's effectively a meh unit on 'roids.

For example, if I want to run a Winter Guard unit effectively, I need to spend a minimum of 8-10 points, which may take up a significant amount of my army. It's really rare, and I'm sure someone will quote this and tell me I'm some sort of psuedo-internet slow who doesn't worship PP as some sort of wargaming overlords, but it does happen every now and then.


Once again, emphasis mine. PP is a minis company. They continue to make money because they improve underpowered units to make them sell. And they do TRY to improve on their failures and their successes, acknowledging each. Yes. They fail. But they strive for improvement.

Honestly I stopped playing PP because I couldn't handle how FAST they updated armies. Having to buy new units CONSTANTLY to keep up with the creep got effing ridiculous. But that rule set is rock solid, it seriously is.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357290.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357290.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Nagashek wrote:
Honestly I stopped playing PP because I couldn't handle how FAST they updated armies. Having to buy new units CONSTANTLY to keep up with the creep got effing ridiculous. But that rule set is rock solid, it seriously is.


I think they corrected that quite well with MkII. The basic prime units are still as viable as they ever were, and you dont need the fanciest new unit to stay competitive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357332.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357332.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Seriously, when it was at its worst there were only one or two 'must' have units per year. How 'must' they were depends upon your gaming environment.

I don't know about other factions but all the Prime units for Cryx are good. There are no duffers in Prime.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357480.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules their uses.

The situational Khador Prime unit seems to be Man-O-War, but Butcher theme
force speeds them up a ton.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357545.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357545.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
George Spiggott wrote:Part of the problem there is scale. When Evolution was released the number of units available to each faction doubled overnight. Now Warmachine has five books and the MkII rebalance. It will be quite some time before that problem reoccurs, if it ever does.

Seriously, when it was at its worst there were only one or two 'must' have units per year. How 'must' they were depends upon your gaming environment.

I don't know about other factions but all the Prime units for Cryx are good. There are no duffers in Prime.


I played Cryx as my first army. My list rarely changed from Biles, Mech Thralls, bone jacks, bane thralls, and caster as a core. Oh, and Pistol Wraiths. I still had to change constantly in tactics and swapping out certain items to deal with all the new additions other people were taking. Filthy, filthy Alexia Ciannor...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357590.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357590.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
She's still gross. Just not as gross.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357600.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357600.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357636.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2357636.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules 40k and WarmaHordes. They're doing completely different things with totally different aims in mind.

I will say this: WarmaHordes' ruleset is much more concise and precise. Fewer abilities are rule-breaking or contradictory and the Forces books provide preventative FAQs, if you will, for abilities like Dispel or Hellmouth that can have unintuitive effects. It's not a perfect ruleset, but it's very well thought out.

But direct comparison of the games isn't going to work. The scales are totally different, for example. WH games are played at the individual level -- each action for every model is rolled. Individual models are targeted. Models are, overall, hardier and face less firepower. 40K models are more abstract and represent bodies on a field, not actual, individual troopers. WH has a stronger sense of real-time maneuvering, where every individual attack is more important. 40K gets to see more huge and awesome things like Trygons and focused battalion fire.

In the end, it's fair to say that PP's ruleset is significantly clearer, but the two games are doing totally different things. If you're playing table-top wargames to see 54 Space Marines gun down 200 Gaunts while coordinating Leman Russes with Heavy Weapons teams to blow the gak out of flanking Trygons, you may be underwhelmed by WH, no matter how tight the rules are.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2358946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2358946.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
MisterMoon wrote:I have a buddy who swears that Warmachine doesn't have a single broken rule, and the rules are crystal clear. I haven't gotten fully into Warmachine/Horde but I find this very difficult to believe (I've found broken or dubious rules in every table top game I've played).

The only thing I usually think of when he says it, is that I really don't think the two games are all that simmilar. Sure they are table top, but the whole premise of play in WM/Horde seems very unique imo.

thoughts?


Tell your buddy to stop drinking the Kool Aid.

Between the two games, they are completly different and not even a conversation about better. My opinion is the same as yours, they are two different games that are both fun.

They both have issues, such as the codex creep, price creep, and nulification of older units, but it goes without saying, we are talking about two companies that want to sell product. I play them and have several different of each army, and do so easily because I like the flavor and the gameplay aspects of both.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2359820.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2359820.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Grot 6 wrote:
such as the codex creep


There is no real codex creep in WM/H. I am still using models from every Mk1 release book.

Grot 6 wrote:
price creep


They are getting more expensive, but PP does not have a history of yearly price hikes.

Grot 6 wrote:
and nulification of older units


This has never happened in WM/H. As has been noted above, Prime units, solos and warcasters are still useuful. Due to this, however, they had the deadly-but-never-quite-accomplished "model bloat" where you start drowning in choices and their many interacting rules start to suffocate the game. This was starting to happen in Mk1, which is why we got Mk2.

Kool-aid drinkers in WM/H are typically those that claim that every model is an excellent choice in enough scenarios to warrant buying them. This is not always the case. There are useful models from every release, but there are also models that have so spesific usefulness ranges that they only rarely see play. And there are hidden gems. Dominar Rasheth was widely poo-poeed when he came out with the FoH: Skorne book, but I have seen him doing decently as a tournament warlock - played as the spell slinger he is. Of course, he has to stay out of close combat or the fat man carried by baby elephants is going to spend a lot of time running in panic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2359888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2359888.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules 40K.

You have a basic combat mechanism of wounding, and you have various sorts of saves, the best of which is invulnerables.
Then you have weapons which ignore invulnerables.
Then you have Feel No Pain, which is an extra save if your ++ save doesn't work.
Then you have weapons which negate FNP, and cause Instant Death.
Then there is Eternal Warrior, which allows you to ignore ID.
Maybe there are some special units or weapons that negate EW?

Some Tyranid units can use 15 different special rules, which are described on a dozen different pages of the codex and the rulebook.

Bits of things change whenever a new codex is released.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2360212.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2360212.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules 40k & there's way less confusion as to how powers affect the game / rules are implemented. Pretty much everything you need to know is on your bloody card. Simple.

wh40k has lots of little special rules, USR, rules on weapons, rules about deployment, ect ect. It's not easy to remember them all for most people, and for newbs ect it takes a lot of wearing them in. Factor in the YMDC-ishness of a lot of rules interactions, and you have yourself a games system that doesn't function that smoothly when questions arise.

I haven't played WM yet, but of all the rambling i've heard about it none of it was rules arguments. I really can't say that about 40k.

I'm not saying either one is better than the other, but as far as rules go, It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Warmahordes has a tighter ruleset.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and one more thing:
Has ANY WM unit ever been retconned out of existence, or out one gen and back in later? As far as i have seen, no. Correct me if i'm wrong]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2360279.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2360279.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules
Kilkrazy wrote:Maybe there are some special units or weapons that negate EW?
Don't Strength 'D' weapons from Apocalypse ignore Eternal Warrior?

Mukkin'About wrote:Oh and one more thing:
Has ANY WM unit ever been retconned out of existence, or out one gen and back in later? As far as i have seen, no. Correct me if i'm wrong
No this has never happened with Warmachine or Hordes. It has also been stated as a design principle that it won't ever happen.

A few models have changed type but you have never been is a position where you cannot field as many of them as you could previously.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2360429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2360429.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules GW didn't do. retconning fluff and units has always been really disappointing to me.
Props to PP for making units and keeping them in the game no matter what]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2360475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2360475.page GMT 40k Rules vs Warmachine / Horde rules LaTD armies still irk me. Theres still no real reason GW ever put forth about why they got dropped- just seems like laziness on thier part.

When I heard MkII was coming out- I was thinking 'Here we go again! The models I got a couple years ago are about to get flushed!'.

But then I saw the MKII test rules, and not only were the old units still usable- they were even competitive as thier points cost was very well balanced.

All in all, Warmachine and hordes have taken all the things I dont like in 40k- and made them good fun rules in thier own game.

Yes, its a slightly smaller scale than 40k is now. But if people remember back to 2nd Edition, the armies used to be smaller then too. The drive to sell sell sell has enlarged the armies, driven down the points cost of most every unit, and upped the size of the average tournament. Its getting to the point where its like 'isnt this what Epic was for?'

And- another peeve- tournaments. 40k tournaments are set on time limits for each round. This lets some players control the pace of the game for thier benefit -aka slowplaying. Anywhere else in the world, in competitve endeavors that are based on turns, a set number of turns are played out. Like baseball and its nine innings. Imagine how lopsided it could be if one team could go out there and be like 'theres 15 minutes left! we're up by 2 so lets just drag our feet and we'll win!'

So, the advent of timed play for Warmahordes games seems like an incredible levelling tool in terms of fairness.

Another factor to mention- theres been lots of posts on dakka about dice cheating in 40k. Usually involving people slipping in some extra dice to the handfuls that are often rolled.

Thats not going to happen in WM- since the base roll uses 2 dice, and then modifiers add to that. But its always clear why additional dice are rolled.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2360664.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/340786/2360664.page GMT