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What armies would fit into that category? He "with little investigation" thinks Bretonians and Dwarfs are something that might be in that rank and I am thinking something more like Ogar Kingdoms, Dwarfs or Chaos Deamons.

Which army do you think would fit what he is looking for?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2405618.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2405618.page GMT
WoC: High toughness(same as Ogres, but can't really be improved) and high armor. basic is a 4+, shields make it 3+. Knights have 1+.

Deamons: No armor, except on Juggers, just Wards. T is variable.

Brets: Knights basically arn't rocking anything worse the 2+, but they are still just humans(T3 and Str3) and really need their armor to save them. when their armor goes, they die, fast.

Dwarves: basic troops arn't super heavily armored(4+ is the best they can get with upgrades), but their Elites can get pretty impressive saves, they shut magic down pretty good, and they have decent T.



For what he wants, Warriors of Chaos]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2405656.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2405656.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2405709.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2405709.page GMT
being only a few pieces they are easier to assemble and they actually rank up properly, something many new models kits struggle to do right. especially spears.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2405722.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2405722.page GMT
Another plus for ogres. Starting them is markedly cheaper than many armies. You mainly need bulls and a few characters to get started. I guess it comes down to aesthetics of what army you like the most. Well those are the two I would recommend.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2406510.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2406510.page GMT AS and a 5+/6+ Ward save. I would have him go Bretonnians or WOC because those are the most armored armies. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2406682.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2406682.page GMT WoC, Dwarfs and Brets for the most heavily armored army. Ogres aren't armored, they're just tough as nails.

Of the three WoC and Dwarfs are easier to get a handle on playing and are considered to be in the top tier. The Brets are harder to learn how to use well and is considered to be a bit of a finesse army. Some would put them at the middle-low tiers.

Your friend should probably sit down, read some of the lore for each army and take a look at the models available for each. That'll be the best way for him to decide which of them he'd like best.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2407109.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2407109.page GMT
being incredibly Tough and having at least 3 wounds each means that they really don't need armor. with a couple of +1T buffs up ogres are practically immune to anything shy of a cannon or Bolt Thrower.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2407287.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2407287.page GMT WoC or Brets, altho most lizardmen get the T4 4+ save others boast about too, one of their most usefull units has low T and no armor whatsoever.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2407360.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2407360.page GMT
Ogres for resilience, but lack of good armour saves

Dwarves for resilience and saves, but less mobility]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2410096.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2410096.page GMT
1- including magical boons. Then, I'd have to say Lizardmen rock the house with the life-Slann. Brettonians, surprisingly enough, probably come close behind with the help of the Prophetess and Damsels. Basically: who's good at using Life magic, and who benefits most from it.

2- not including magical boons. Then I'd say Warriors of Chaos, hands down. Tzeentch Warriors tote a 3+/5+ in CC and are T4. I'd hazard to say that they are the single most durable unit in the game (no tricks or spells included), and they are core.
Also, there's the Chosenstar with a 3+ Ward. Since there's no partial victory points anymore, you could field a big ol' block of these guys (30+) with a BSB or something, and just refuse to give up over half your army's points. While killing the crap out of your opponent.

There's a lot of other things to consider, but everyone above has covered that follow-your-heart stuff, so I'm just here to reply to the topic.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2448016.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2448016.page GMT
Higher str attacks reduce armor saves. And you don't have to get that high (4 is -1, 5 is -2, etc). Nothing reduces Ward saves.

Ogres with Gut Magic can be very hard to kill as said.

Vampire Counts and the new Tomb Kings (I'm guessing) are very easy to kill, but very hard to stay killed.

Straight armor, it's a close match between WoC, Lizardmen and I hear Brets (I don't know them).

Daemons all have ward saves, so that's also something.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2448093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2448093.page GMT AS but they IMO need peasant blocks to remove steadfast once in a while, and we all know peasant armour isn't impressive. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2448417.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2448417.page GMT
But then, I'm not suggesting that those armies are the best, from a tactical, financial, or any other point. I'm just looking for the armies that are the most capable of producing dudes that are hard to kill.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2449716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2449716.page GMT
the max unit size for knight units is 12. you would have to be rocking 3 characters to get 15 models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2449840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2449840.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2451811.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2451811.page GMT
Plus you heroes are only 80 pts for a Paladin with 3 attacks, s6, ws 5, I 5, 2+ AS, and 5+/6+ ward. For quality heroes, bretonnians have the edge. They have the most armored army and the 15 knight lance is a major combat breaker. With 4 ranks it can easily take steadfast from most ememies especially when used correctly with a 9 knight lance.

Pesants help to for a more competitive army, but they are not necessary. Go Bretonnians, they are the most armored. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2451851.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2451851.page GMT WOC player, and frankly we are extremely hard to kill, my standard army is known for being extremely frustrating for many armies, the only thing that ever worries me is the nasty whole unit no save spells. . .

We can field better Ogres than Ogre Kingdoms, we have better knights than Brettonia, we move faster than dwarves and our base troops fight better than them. The only thing we lack really is access to the lore of Life, or the Lore of Light and frankly thats a good thing, I get enough complaining as is. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2452007.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2452007.page GMT

you trade Armor piercing attacks for a 5+ armor save and lose Bull Charge.

i think Chaos ogres are about 5 points too expensive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2452090.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2452090.page GMT
That aside, there's something to be said about awesome stats. Sometimes, it barely matters how much your unit costs. If it kills stuff dead and nothing can stand in it's way, it's worth it. Blood Knights, properly fielded and poorly matched, are the scariest models out there. And they should be.

But my vote for this thread remains WoC.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2452339.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/344342/2452339.page GMT