Latest posts for the thread "Special Character for my Ogres."

Special Character for my Ogres.

Grey Templar — GMT

Lord Feastgut, the Mawseeker of Great Girth

Lord Feastgut, the Mawseeker of Great Girth, is the reigning lord of the Beastamer Ogre Tribe. He has reigned for over 200 years and plans on continuing to do so.
Lord Feastgut, as his name suggests, is of great girth, though not nearly as much as Greasus Goldtooth(yet)

Feastgut inherited the leadership of the tribe from his father, Bouldermuncher the third, after his father's untimely death and subsequently being eaten by Feastgut.
Before becoming Tyrant, Feastgut had traveled the world with some of his friends as maneaters. And not just any maneaters, they were Rhinox Riders in the tradition of the Beastamer tribe. They sold their clubs across the old world and saw many lands, from the jeweled jungles to the south, the great palaces of Cathey, to the cold frozen wastes in Kislev.

Lord Feastgut, the Mawseeker of Great Girth: 350 pts

Feastgut is a lord choice and MUST be the army general. Feastgut is a tyrant and as such he allows you to take Slaughtermasters.
..M WS BS S T W I A Ld
..6...7...4...6...6...6...5...5...9

Unit size: 1(unique)

Unit Type: Monsterous Infantry

Equipment: Dragon's Talon, the Tricky Bauble, Ogre Club, heavy armor. Feastgut has the Mawseeker Big Name.

Dragon's Talon: This massive blade once belonged to a Temple Guardian in far off Ind. it now belongs to Feastgut. the Dragon's Talon is a magic weapon that grants Feastgut +1 WS and Inititive(Bonus already included in his profile) his attacks also count as flaming.

the Tricky Bauble: this is a necklace that Feastgut tore from the warm, and tasty, neck of a Brettonian Lord who didn't pay Feastgut after he was hired to kill a Minotaur warband that had been terrorizing the Lords manor. the Tricky Bauble grants Feastgut a 5+ ward save. any 6s that are rolled when rolling to wound Feastgut must be rerolled.

Options: Feastgut may ride his faithful Rhinox, Grumbler, for 125 points. if he does so his Unit Type changes to Monsterous Cavelry.
if Feastgut rides Grumbler, you must include a unit of Bull Rhinox Riders in your army. these Rhinox Riders count as a Special choice rather then the usual Rare.

Grumbler, the Ironclad Rhinox
.. M WS BS S T W I A Ld
7...4...-...6...5...5...4...4...6

Equipment: Tusks and bad temper(hand weapon)

Grumbler wears crude barding over his shaggy hide. Grumbler has a 3+ armor save and gives Feastgut a +3 to his armor save(normally, a 2+ armor save total for Feastgut)

Special Rules: Terror, Bad Tempered, Thunderous Charge, Single Minded.

Special Character for my Ogres.

HawaiiMatt — GMT

Drop his wounds to 5. Or, add another ~35 points to cover the 6th wound.

The talisman is too good on a WS7 T6 guy. It shakes out like a 4+ ward against a chaos lord, but it's better than a 2+ ward against a lot of rank and file. At the very least, I say, 5+ ward, with the other bonus only in challenges.

50 points for a bull rhinox? Not going to happen. 150 points seems closer to right.

Finally, free rare space for rhinox riders? No. Maybe have them count as specials if you want a tie in to rhinox; or, better yet, if you take the mount option, require the purchase of a rhinox unit as rares, counting as rares as normal. I can see the fluff tying him to having rhinox around, but I don't see a reason why you should get to have rhinox around, along with slave giants and gorgers.

-Matt

Re:Special Character for my Ogres.

Grey Templar — GMT

What if a dropped the bauble to only being 6s to wound and the 5+ ward, dropped his wounds by 1 and increased the Point cost to 350?

I just checked and the Rhinox is undercosted, but 150 is more expensive then an individual Bull Rhinox Rider and Grumbler has the same stats. 115 would be the Price of a Bull Rhinox(minus the cost of an Ogre Bull) so i'll make it 125 for the cost of the barding.

Special Character for my Ogres.

HawaiiMatt — GMT

A tyrant on a rhinox is worth more than a bull on a rhinox.
If that weren't the case, all unit command upgrades in the game would cost the same.

Bauble to 6's to wound and 5+ ward I'd go for.

-Matt

Re:Special Character for my Ogres.

Grey Templar — GMT

i was making the point that Grumbler isn't worth as much as a Bull Rhinox with rider(which is what you were suggesting)

a Bull Rhinox Rider is 145 points. you get the bull rhinox and the Ogre Bull riding him. Grumbler is 125 points for essentially a barded Rhinox as an upgrade for Feastgut.

Re:Special Character for my Ogres.

HawaiiMatt — GMT

Grey Templar wrote:i was making the point that Grumbler isn't worth as much as a Bull Rhinox with rider(which is what you were suggesting)

a Bull Rhinox Rider is 145 points. you get the bull rhinox and the Ogre Bull riding him. Grumbler is 125 points for essentially a barded Rhinox as an upgrade for Feastgut.

It's generally not a good idea to use forge world rules as a basis for home brew rules. They always seem to be off in the points.
Rhinox were very under-priced when introduced. I've only faced them once in 8th, and they seemed decent (only thanks to steadfast and parry).

-Matt

Re:Special Character for my Ogres.

Grey Templar — GMT

Grumbler has the same stats as a Bull Rhinox. i just add the barding.

the Barding isn't worth the cost of an Ogre Bull(which is what a Rhinox Rider is) so it makes sense that he is slightly cheaper then a bog standard rhinox rider.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
It's generally not a good idea to use forge world rules as a basis for home brew rules. they always seem to be off in points.

I disagree. most Forge World rule sets are overpriced.

and as far as Rhinox Riders being underpriced you can hardly say that when the army book, at time of release, was pretty lame.

ogres really didn't have a hope in hell of winning combats without extraordinary luck. a, debatably, overpowered unit is hardly something to hold against them.

and in my experience in 8th(about 20 games) with rhinox riders, they really arn't as much of a threat as people think. the real threat is the massive unit of 20 Bulls marching up the center. the Rhinox are just a distraction.

Special Character for my Ogres.

EagleArk — GMT

He`s T6, and the majority S is 3, so every time you wound with your rank and file you have to re-roll it? Thats fair and dandy.

Re:Special Character for my Ogres.

Grey Templar — GMT

Tyrants and Bruisers can be T6 too for a very small cost. this guy has it included in his cost.

Special Character for my Ogres.

Warpsolution — GMT

Seems solid. I don't have an ogre book on me, but I'm assuming that he costs as much as a Tyrant, plus a little more for any boosts in WS or whatever, plus s'more for his items (25-30 for the Talon and 40 for the Bauble?), and, of course, 10 for the Name.

Personally, I'm a little confused with being both a Mawseeker and tyrant of a tribe that tames beasts. I mean, it could easily happen, but I'd assume that a special character would either be (1) some sort of Pilgrim of the Maw (which would be kinda' cool, since he's not a Butcher or Slaughtermaster), specializing in eating stuff, or (2) a type of Lord-level Hunter, except maybe with his own special Big Name or something.

As far as the rules go, though, I think he's more or less fine (again, assuming all the costs add up). Re-rolling 6's to Wound really only makes him more resilient to Heroic Killing Blow; he's not going to die to S3, no matter what protection he has. The game just won't last that long. Also, for the record, S4 is statistically the most common in Warhammer.

Special Character for my Ogres.

DukeRustfield — GMT

I have a tough time with SC costs now that 2 new 8th books are out. They seem very different than the late 7th books.

I'd say look through the new O&G and TK books to try and get a new baseline for pricing.

One thing in principal is that he needs to get rid of the Bauble. It seems whenever players come up with new SCs there's inevitably a ward save, because ward saves are so damn good and they don't want their cool new char to die. This guy is greater than a Daemon's ward save, which is pretty zany. Ogres are about Toughness and Wounds and a tiny bit of armor. It would also negate HKB, which if any unit is awesome enough to have it, shouldn't be negated in any way/shape or form.

Mathematically, that bauble offers waaaay too much protection when applied to someone who has T6/W6/WS7 Heavy armor (+2 with Rhinox), 5+ ward, First 6's don't work and can potentially be healed. He would be nearly impossible to kill.

I mean looking at his T6 anyone with <5 Str would be forced to re-roll their only chance of hurting him (a 6). If they are lucky enough to roll 2 consecutive 6s, he's got the armor and ward. That's pretty crazy.

Edit, remove the bauble, I would say lower the armor save, and give him a wound or two. OR, give him a weapon that is better. Look at Gorbad. Or hell, look at the Ogre books. Ogres are about doing damage, not having ten dragons breath on them and not notice. The weapons in the Ogre book > the one listed above. Give him some SMASH.

Re:Special Character for my Ogres.

Grey Templar — GMT

What if i made the Bauble give a better ward save against higher Strengths instead of rerolling to wound?

6+ againsty Str3 and less, 5+ against Str4 and 5, and 4+ against Str6 and higher?

Special Character for my Ogres.

Warpsolution — GMT

Hm...maybe.

Personally, I'd like to defend against the first critique above:

- people give their home-brewed Special Characters Ward saves because everyone gives their important characters Ward saves. A Special Character without some kind of decent magical protection will probably just fall prey to non-Special characters. There's nothing wrong with making new stuff that's also sensible.

- How is a Ward save that's better than a Daemons crazy at all? Daemons have a 5+. A "not bad, not great" Ward save. Ogre characters have a high T, lots of wounds, yes. But no Ward save? Why not? Ward saves are the best all-around protection out there, and if an Ogre player wants to protect his character, he'll probably give him a Ward save. Or the Trickster's Helm. And a Healing Potion.

- The Bauble, coupled with Mawseeker, is good, but it's not crazy. It basically makes him immune to S4 and less, and as I said, he's not going down to that stuff anyway.
I don't have much problem with the Bauble itself, again as I said. If your opponent knows what's up and has the tools to stop him, they'll target him with the right (big) guns.

- Finally, you can't just "lower the armour save, and give him a wound or two". He's a Tyrant, and he wears heavy armour, and sometimes he rides a barded Rhinox. So he has the wounds and armour save of a Tyrant, who sometimes rides a barded Rhinox. And while Ogres are certainly dangerous in combat, that's not the only thing they're about; Trickster's Helm+Healing Potion+Mawseeker is a popular Tyrant build, with naught but a lonely great weapon for added oomph. It's pretty common to see people kitting out their characters to survive, while their 20 Bulls do the killin'.

...beyond all that, though...I think that the conditional Ward save version of the Bauble would be more useful for him, and about the worth as an item.

Re:Special Character for my Ogres.

Grey Templar — GMT

I mostly wrote the rules like this because i converted a Tyrant model that I currently run with the set up you described above(Tricksters Helm, Mawseeker, Potion of Healing, HA, and a CLS)

as you can see, he has a Cathayen "Very" long sword

He still ranks up very nicely. sorry, i don't have a pic of him painted up

Special Character for my Ogres.

DukeRustfield — GMT

Right, what's the most striking factor of that model: the sword. What is the least valuable factor on the model: the sword.

As for what matters with the Daemon comparison, this unit has better protection than a Great Unclean One (though less wounds). In fact, he'd likely be able to beat the crap out of one as his WS/I/A are better and he forces re-rolls. Oh, and he costs 100 points less. That's just over the top. I mean the guy has a BS4 and he doesn't shoot anything. The best archers in the game have a BS4.

But let's break it down:
-Armor of Fortune 5+ ward = 35 pts
-Tricksters helm (successful wounds re-rolled) = 50 pts. It's not quite that good, but with his toughness at 6 it basically is that good for like 80% of the units in the game. But let's call it 40 pts. So that's about 75pt magic item by itself.

I understand why people want wards on their cool guys. Cuz then they don't die. But look at just about every unit in the game: they are specialists. What niche is this guy? He's super strong, super resistant, super initiative, super shooter, super mount.

A good comparison is Kroq-Gar from the Lizardmen. Who is also pretty super.

However, compared to your dude he's got
-2M
-1WS
-1BS
-1S
-1T
-2W
-1I
-1L

5+ Ward
4+ Scaly
Cold Blood
An ok bound spell
+1 str on turn that charges.

He rides a Carnisaur that...is plus and minus the rhinox.

However his point cost is 635 for both.

Either throw a lot more duckets at this guy or tone him down. I strongly urge you to make him more of a specialist. "I'm good at everything and can't die," just isn't that exciting.

Special Character for my Ogres.

Warpsolution — GMT

That's a pretty sweet model.

1. the typical cost for a Ward save is 15pts/16% chance. The various armours that grant a Ward save cost 5pts more, possibly because they're also heavy armour (still stupid). So, for the Bauble, let's start with 30pts.

Re-rolling 6's to wound will make him more survivable. But let's see...against WS6-3, S4 and down, it takes at least 36 attacks to cause a wound, discounting anything but armour.

So, I'll say it again: making him twice as durable versus S4 and less may seem crazy, but, on average, there aren't enough turns in a game to do so anyway.

2. Great Unclean Ones are pretty much terrible. Other than their 10 wounds, they don't have much going for them.

3. Kroq-Gar, along with all the Lizardmen SC, is over-priced. Not as much as many, but still overpriced.

4. This guy's niche? He's an Ogre Tyrant; he's tough and strong. (Also, the best archers in the game are BS5 and up).
Units have functions. Special Characters often have functions, but people rarely take them unless those functions are X-treme (Teclis). Normal non-wizard characters are usually kitted out to be durable and choppy.

Grey Templar, do you think you could put up the cost/stats of an Ogre Tyrant for a brief comparison?

Special Character for my Ogres.

DukeRustfield — GMT

He's not a Tyrant, he's a Special Character. If you want a Tyrant, buy a Tyrant.

You can dismiss other units with, "well they're overpriced," but that's the game world you're in. Unless you're going to reprice everything in the game as part of your new character, that's what you need to compare with. You made an underpriced, overpowered unit compared with what's out there. There's nothing stopping you from doing that, but don't expect people to want to play that.

Grimgor Ironhide is toughest of tough orks ever. He costs 355.
He compares by:
-2M
+1WS
-3BS
-1S
-1T
-2W

+2 Str in attacks, ASF.
+1 armor save, 5+ ward
Hatred
Immune to Psychology

So with him and the Liz guy, you've taken the most powerful melee characters 2 races have, made one much more powerful, and much less expensive. Grimgor is at least closer, but when you add that little 150pt mount, he becomes a speed bump by comparison.

Re:Special Character for my Ogres.

Grey Templar — GMT

He is a Tyrant.

a Special Character Tyrant.

lets compare a standard Ogre Tyrant to my guy.

Regular Tyrant 200 points

WS6, BS4, Str5, T5, I5, A5, Ld9

Feastgut 350 points

WS7, BS4, Str6, T6, I6, A5, Ld9

Note that the bonuses for the sword and mawseeker bigname are already included in feastgut's profile.

a CLS and Mawseeker on a normal Tyrant will change his price up to 220 pts

the Trickster's helm and the Wyrdstone necklace, which will give almost the same effect as the Bauble, cost another 70 points.

so a Tyrant with almost the same set up and stats will cost 290 points.

Feastgut pays 60 additional points for Flaming and Magical attacks and an additional point of Str. the Trickster's helm also works on all to wound rolls, not just 6s.

Grumbler is actually more expensive then a Bull Rhinox if you subtract the cost of an Ogre Bull from it(which is what is riding a Rhinox)

and for what its worth, the FW Rhinox Rider rules were written by Phil Kelly and were just copy pasted from the official WD article(which was withdrawn when people started whining about getting beaten by ogres)

Re:Special Character for my Ogres.

DukeRustfield — GMT

Grey Templar wrote:He is a Tyrant.

a Special Character Tyrant.

lets compare a standard Ogre Tyrant to my guy.

As far as I read.

Compare an Orc Warboss to any of the special characters. A warboss is 115 pts. The SCs are all VASTLY more expensive and they don't remotely make up for it in a corresponding increase in attacks/wounds/characteristics. They aren't Warbosses. Get that out of your head. You could almost buy 3 Tyrants for the cost of one Greasus and they would kick the living crap out of his fat ass. He's not a Tyrant. Special Characters are SC's. You could buy more than 2 Tomb Kings for the cost of High Queen Khalida, and have like 5 more wounds and 3 more attacks. Same with generic High Priests and the SC's. This is how Warhammer works. You pay through the nose for those special rules on special characters. If you want a Tyrant, guess what, they have Tyrant's, which you are free to equip any way you want, even making a custom model with a big huge sword. Special Characters are force multipliers. They're niche units, like I said. They do stuff that the generic Lords/Heroes can't, otherwise you could just use the generic ones.

You made a model. That model is irrelevant. The model is fluff. He could be the greatest gnoblar in the universe, descended directly from the Old Ones and given gifts by all the Choas Gods. It doesn't matter, that's just back story. Fluff doesn't win games. Is he balanced, is what matters. If your concern is he's a Tyrant, just make a Tyrant and buy him a big sword. Buy some of the ward save items. Buy him mawseeker. All this stuff you can do with a generic Tyrant.

Special Character for my Ogres.

Warpsolution — GMT

As far as you read? Why?

So, Special Characters are expensive, you say? Yes. And that's bad. They're specialized? Well, sometimes. Grimgor, Kroq-Gar, King Leon, etc. are all just tough and killy. There are many types of Special Characters.
And if all of them are inferior to regular characters...can't you see an issue with that?

When people make new rules, why on Earth would they make them based off of flaws in the system, versus what the could be (and what, more often than not, it is played as)?

This guy is a Tyrant. He's an Ogre. He leads a tribe. He's a Tyrant. Yeah, it's fluff. Sort of. But it's such basic common sense. How would you make a Special Character? Generate random numbers, based off of the entire game as a whole, and slap on a price tag? You've got to go off of something similar. He's a Tyrant. Grimgor is a Warboss. Queek is a Warlord. Get that in your head.

Grey Templar, I think you can safely ignore further critiques when your posts are ignored. Peace.

Special Character for my Ogres.

DukeRustfield — GMT

Warpsolution wrote:And if all of them are inferior to regular characters...can't you see an issue with that?

When people make new rules, why on Earth would they make them based off of flaws in the system, versus what the could be (and what, more often than not, it is played as)?

Uh, because this is a Warhammer suggestion in Warhammer on a Warhammer forum. And he's not making a new rule, he's making a new character. You can absolutely make a 8.B3D24th edition rules where everyone flies (because it's a "flaw" that not everyone can) and everyone has a ward save (because it's an issue that not everyone has one). But that's not the current game. Or make a new character called Grimgor's Brother that costs half as much as Grimgor with bonuses to all his stats--but, I wouldn't hold my breath on people embracing it.

I'm not trying to piss on your char. I just don't think it amazingly fits the current game world. If you want to say it's a flawed/inferior game model, that's coolio.

I'll say it again, just make a tyrant. Buy mawseeker. Buy a ward. Buy a sword. You're done. That's your special character. He won't have your crazy good stats and mount, but those were horrendously undercosted anyway. Look at the 2 whopping heroes in the Ogre book, they can all do stuff that can't possibly be purchased via items, no matter the cost. That's why they aren't simple Tyrants and Butchers, they're special characters. Even the merely buffed super units in Orc and Liz have rules that don't exist and can't be purchased directly. Otherwise you could just buy them on a generic Warboss or Oldblood.

Special Character for my Ogres.

Warpsolution — GMT

This is indeed a Warhammer Forum. Under the topic New Rules. In a thread about a new character.
We're not limited to the mistakes that GW made. And by mistakes, I of course mean actual flaws. Like how Life magic went from being the worst to one of, if not the, best. Or how cavalry aren't generally worth taking anymore.

I'm talking about reasonable changes suggested by reasonable people. If something seems unbalanced, I'll say something. I've compared this guy's price and abilities to things similar to him, and found him reasonable.
You've compared him to things that are less similar, and found him unreasonable for illogical reasons.

As Templar pointed out, this guy is paying 60pts for +1 S and flaming magical attacks, if you consider "5+ Ward, successful rolls to wound him must be re-rolled" the same as "5+ Ward, rolls to wound him of 6 must be re-rolled" as the same, which they're not.
And the Rhinox costs more than a regular Rhinox, as stated.

...so...how are they "horrendously undercosted"? They're not, that's how.
And you know what? I'll agree with you that, generally, Special Characters offer you something that normal one's don't. And that's cool. But that doesn't mean that we can't make new Special Characters, for casual gameplay, that err towards something that we might be more inclined to play with normally.
I'm all for keepin' it realistic, but I'd first make it worthy to hit the table. There's nothing wrong with this guy. He's either a little stronger than a normal Tyrant, or he's a little weaker but hits at Initiative. Nothing wrong. If anything, he costs a little too much. And if you can't be bothered to actually read what's been posted, then don't bother to post. If you can't be bothered to actually go through a legitimate, logical thought process, then please, don't share your thoughts at all, because they won't be worth a thing.