Exergy wrote:The Eldar list claims it wants all shurkien weapons to have rending and increased range. They also want a point decrease for Guardians.

Mahtamori wrote:
Hate to nit-pick, but we've got a fairly comprehensive couple of threads (the first got too large!) where several suggestions are hashed and rehashed. "They" don't want "and". "They" want the combination which best suits the army feel and fluff.
In fact, most of the regular contributers to the huge thread would agree that reduced point cost on Guardians is not desirable.

Exergy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:
Hate to nit-pick, but we've got a fairly comprehensive couple of threads (the first got too large!) where several suggestions are hashed and rehashed. "They" don't want "and". "They" want the combination which best suits the army feel and fluff.
In fact, most of the regular contributers to the huge thread would agree that reduced point cost on Guardians is not desirable.

I was reading "Ideas for the next Eldar Codices - MkII" first page billed as the consensus. Universal rending on shurkiens and increased range and decreased cost on guardians. The use of the word OR is what I might be looking for. I k,now its hard to put in such a large thread, but I dont think there is any way to accommodate all three.

Mahtamori wrote:
I must admit I haven't read the first page in a long long time, but those three would stick the Guardians down at an estimated 10 points per model, given recent codices influx of ridiculousness - with 5+ they're still squishy as hell.
Edit: ah, the first page is mostly a copy of my compilation of suggestions from thread #1. Read them as AND/OR between each new line. The suggestions are all individual and not meant to be read as a compilation - some of them are even mutually exclusive of each other!

Exergy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:
I must admit I haven't read the first page in a long long time, but those three would stick the Guardians down at an estimated 10 points per model, given recent codices influx of ridiculousness - with 5+ they're still squishy as hell.
Edit: ah, the first page is mostly a copy of my compilation of suggestions from thread #1. Read them as AND/OR between each new line. The suggestions are all individual and not meant to be read as a compilation - some of them are even mutually exclusive of each other!

Thinking constructively. I think a Str3 AP- Rending weapon might be where to start. Shurkien Cannons would either be Str3 or Str4 AP- as well with a higher ROF.
compared to Str4 AP5
Its considerably less effective against GeQ.
Still more effective against MeQ and TeQ although not as dramatically.
Its considerably better against vehicles, but can only glance AV12 and its glances and pens are less damaging.
Its considerably better against MC. About the same level as DE splinter weapons for MC with 3+ saves.

Something else in the army list would have to take up the anti GeQ banner but overall I think something like this could work.

Speaking of fluff though. I cant think of any reason a shurkien would have rending. If anything it should be less effective against armor.

dancingcricket wrote:Problem with low S rending is that you quickly get results where you either cant touch the target except for the rending wounds, at which point you shred armor. There's no middle ground. At that point your changing up how the shooting/wounding works, to the detriment of the high T good armor targets. You're no longer overcoming their toughness through the weapons S, and your bypassing it's ability to stave off wounds.

Mahtamori wrote:
Now, take a Guardian. Then take a Marine. Have them borrow each others weapons. Suddenly both are better!
It's a case of the wrong unit having the wrong weapon. It's an assault (ignore WH terminology) weapon for a unit that shouldn't assault. The rest of the unit is not designed to effectively use this sort of weapon.
It's like sticking a power weapon in the hands of a Devastator squad (no one doubts a power weapon is good for a Chapter Master).
Improving the fire power of a short range weapon so that it becomes devastating, when the squad itself is on the weak side makes for a unit that can claim to be interestingly designed (high cost, high risk, high reward potential).
The other way to design the Guardians is to change their weapons completely. Lasblasters (their current incarnation) would make the best possible weapons for them in the current codex (short of Long Rifles or Reaper Launchers).

Exergy wrote:

Mahtamori wrote:
Now, take a Guardian. Then take a Marine. Have them borrow each others weapons. Suddenly both are better!
It's a case of the wrong unit having the wrong weapon. It's an assault (ignore WH terminology) weapon for a unit that shouldn't assault. The rest of the unit is not designed to effectively use this sort of weapon.
It's like sticking a power weapon in the hands of a Devastator squad (no one doubts a power weapon is good for a Chapter Master).
Improving the fire power of a short range weapon so that it becomes devastating, when the squad itself is on the weak side makes for a unit that can claim to be interestingly designed (high cost, high risk, high reward potential).
The other way to design the Guardians is to change their weapons completely. Lasblasters (their current incarnation) would make the best possible weapons for them in the current codex (short of Long Rifles or Reaper Launchers).

The issue with making shuriken catapults have universal rules is that so many other Eldar units also carry shuriken weaponry. Universal rending on shurkien weapons suddenly gives howling banshees, striking scorpians, harlequins, warlocks, and rangers the best pistol in the game. It effects jetbikes, vypers, falcons, and the list just keeps going on.

If guardians need fixing, and they do, either take the shuriken catapult out of their hands (people would hate having to buy new models) or fix them in another way(lower points or special rules).

Mahtamori wrote:
I'd personally rate the Fusion Pistol (Harlequins) to be better. I'd also argue that a small arms pistol wouldn't necessarily have the same power as an assault rifle.

Jetbikes need something as well. They have the chassi to make them good, but their armament is only good on one out of three. The thing with Jetbikes, though, is that with their JSJ they do have a small range advantage that Guardians lack which makes them a pain in the behind while Guardians simply becomes food for Khorne. The current defensive weapons on Eldar vehicles are negligible, again more due to range and possibly also to lack of them, but there simply is no reward for getting that close unless your cargo warrants it.
I'm just glad you didn't write Wraithlord, 'cause even with rending I'd still take flamers.

P.S. Just make the new models use Lasblasters (under a new name, by Cegorach I hate that name!) and have the option to arm them with Shuriken Catapults. Up the basic range on the catapults to match Dire Avengers, and up the price for upgrading Guardians to it so that it's a "fluffy alternative"
Say a Guardian Defender uses Lasblaster, is more focused on pushing out heavy weapons, and has improved armour save. Costs 8 points. Change it to a Catapult and you pay 9 points per model. Change it to a Dire Avenger and you pay 10 points per model for a model with better BS, WS, LD, Init, and an Exarch which complements the unit in a completely different way.

dancingcricket wrote:Personally I'm in favor of making Gauss into Melta weapons, not changing the stats necessarily, but that would bring them in line with the fluff and back to being effective against vehicles, without seriously changing their effectiveness against units on foot.

On the rending. I'm not as worried about it. Yes, it means that someone isn't going to get an armor save. And I feel sorry for your Terminator for not getting his armor save. Well, not really. Not since he was riding to battle in that Land Raider. And he's going to ignore 5/6 of the other wounds, has a back up invulnerable save, and can stand in cover for an additional save, just like everyone else. Marines in their rhinos, guard in their chimera, shooting out but being immune to small arms fire, rending doesn't seem that bad. Means that when we do finally get you out of your vehicle, we can not have to waist 2-3 rounds trying to get rid of what was inside in addition. I'll agree rending is too OP when transports stop being a neccessity in everyones army.

dancingcricket wrote:Oh, I agree. Rending on everything is not the way to go, I'm just not worried about it since transports are so common. When something happens that takes away cheap easy transports, and reduces the amount of cover saves available, then rending on everything would be OP. But against a rhino, a 10 man guardian squad isn't likely to get the marines inside out, and since they have such a short range, the marines inside are in rapid fire or charge range when they get out next round. Against a squad in the open, your likely, with rending, to get between 3 and 4 kills against a marine squad, total including rending) with the same 10 man guardian squad. Rending is no longer off of the hit, not since 5th came out. So the number of potential rends has gone down significantly. And the armies it would hurt most to be facing an opponent who has rending troops, are ones who have the best save otherwise, marines. Now I'll admit that I don't care for marines, so there is a bit of a bias, but my bias is not one of 'Put the screws to the marines', but 'I'd like to have more variety in my opponents'. Anything that might encourage others to branch out is, in my mind, a good thing.

As for everything being able to kill everything, unless they start allowing higher than T6 in new codexes, and stop putting in heavy weapons in squads, then it looks like they're already going with everything can kill everything. Lasguns can take down a carni, tyrant, trygon, daemon prince, greater daemon. The only things that they can't touch seem to be in books that haven't been updated since 5th, and for that they have access to special and heavy weapons.