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		<title><![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Choosing not to deploy in Escalation"]]></title>
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				<title>Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <P>Looking for other views on this since a number were quite suprised by a recent battle report of mine.&nbsp; In our area:&nbsp;you 'may' deploy infantry units is taken to mean that you can choose wether or not to deploy an infantry unit if you wish.&nbsp; This could lead to a player choosing to deploy nothing at all, even without the assistance of droppods or transports.</P>  <P>Thoughts?</P>  <P>&nbsp;</P>  <P>&nbsp;</P>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 21 Feb 2006 09:59:45]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Moz]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ It can be read either way... I tend to think that, the way it is worded, all they are saying is that basic Infantry are the only troops that are deployed, not that you can choose whether to deploy them.<br><br>It's the difference between "Only basic infantry may be deployed" and "Basic infantry may be deployed"<br><br>The first says 'You can not deploy anything other than basic infantry' while the the second says 'You can choose whether or not to deploy basic infantry' ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 21 Feb 2006 10:29:31]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ insaniak]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I don't have the rulebook with me; but the reserves rules might help out here. Is there anything in there that states you are allowed to keep units in reserve that would normally be set up? This would support the idea that 'may' means 'may choose to deploy or not deploy as you see fit': i.e. that you <i>are</i> allowed to keep units off the board.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Tue, 21 Feb 2006 22:36:12]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Cpl_Saint]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I just read the Escalation rules and it says MAY be deployed at the start of the game, unless mission states otherwise.<br><br>So you could start with an empty deployment zone.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 00:19:29]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ CaptAnderton]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Ahoj!<br>This boils down to difference between British and American English. <br>In <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> English may means can.<br>  Go with what Insaniak wrote.<br><br>Borys<br>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 00:43:34]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Bad55]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Close, Borys, but actually it doesn't boil down to a difference between "may" and "can."  Either word would leave the same ambiguity.<br><br>In both American and British English they mean the same thing.  "Can" also means some additional things that "may" does not mean, but everything that "may" means is also meant by "can."  (And, yes, that means that the whole thing your third grade teacher taught you about the difference between them is total <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(14);'>BS</span>.)<br><br>In British English, I am told, "may" also has some very strong connotations of "must," which means something totally different.  But even so, it's impossible to say for sure what this sentence in the rules means.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 08:53:10]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <P>However in english, both British and American, a word with multiple definitions,&nbsp;is defined by usage. <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(50);'>GW</span> seems very big on using this method to define their rules. The escalation rules define certain points which are contradictory to normal deployment.</P>  <P>"ONLY infantry.....may be deployed at the beginning of the game." "Everthing else is held in reserve." Granted "is deployed" would have been clearer, but nowhere does it say "Only infantry may be deployed&nbsp;OR held in reserve at the beginning of the game." </P>  <P>Units without the reserve rule may not be held in reserve EVEN IF THE OPTION IS THERE, unless the scenario specifically tells you to.</P>  <P>&nbsp;</P>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:07:31]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Lordhat]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <P>Flav, That's bologna. </P>  <P>If British may=must, then the whole rule system won't work. Start reading the rules and replace may with must and see how long it takes for you to agree. </P>  <P>You'd be claiming that infiltrators must set up just outside 18", that bikes must turbo boost every turn, etc. </P>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:10:32]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mauleed]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <br>Not that this necessarily means anything but I just want to point out how easily <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(50);'>GW</span> could have worded the rule to make it clear (if that was their intention):<br><br>How it is printed: <br><br><i>"In a mission using the Escalation rule, only basic infantry units that do not have dedicated transports <b>may be</b> deployed at the start of the game, unless the mission rules state otherwise".</i><br><br><br>How it could have been written if <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(50);'>GW</span> intended it that way:<br><br><i>"In a mission using the Escalation rule, only basic infantry units that do not have dedicated transports <b>are</b> deployed at the start of the game, unless the mission rules state otherwise".</i><br><br><br>Just wanted to throw that out even though it doesn't really add to the argument in anyway.<br><br><br><br><br><br>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:45:01]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ yakface]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I "may" choose to stick my hand in a blender and turn it on.  Then again, I "may not".<br><br>So, I "may" choose to place my gene stealers on the board without any support, or I "may not".<br><br><br>Gazzor]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 09:49:31]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Gazzor]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Gazzor on 02/22/2006 2:49 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><BR>I "may" choose to stick my hand in a blender and turn it on. Then again, I "may not".<BR><BR>So, I "may" choose to place my gene stealers on the board without any support, or I "may not".<BR><BR><BR>Gazzor</div></blockquote>  <P>&nbsp;</P>  <P>Try this scenario Gaz:</P>  <P>&nbsp;</P>  <P>There is a law that says "Everyday, every citizen must put&nbsp;his&nbsp;hand and 2 other things&nbsp;in his blender and turn it on. This must be done at 7:00 am. On mondays only their hands may be put&nbsp;in the blender at 7:00 am,&nbsp;the other 2 things&nbsp;must wait until at least 9:00 am, before they can be placed in the blender.<BR></P>  <P>The exception for the latter does not constitute an exception for the former. <BR></P>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:22:23]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Lordhat]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Flav, That's bologna. </div></blockquote><br><br>Either way, it's still an ambiguous rule.  I've never really gotten a straight answer on how strong the "must" implications are supposed to be or how the construction works.  Mostly I'm just throwing in the extra info to support the idea that this particular rule can't be resolved by clarifying a difference between British and American usage.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:39:25]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <P>From <a target=_blank href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=may&amp;r=66" target=_blank><FONT color=#000080>http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=may&amp;r=66</FONT></A></P>  <P>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div><b>may</b><SUP><FONT size=-1>1</FONT></SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;(m<IMG   src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gif"  align=bottom>)<BR><I>aux.v.</I> <I>Past tense</I> <B>might </B>(m<IMG   src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/imacr.gif"  align=bottom>t)   <P></P>  <OL>  <LI>To be allowed or permitted to: <CITE>May I take a swim? Yes, you may.</CITE>   <LI>Used to indicate a certain measure of likelihood or possibility: <CITE>It may rain this afternoon.</CITE>   <LI>Used to express a desire or fervent wish: <CITE>Long may he live!</CITE>   <LI>Used to express contingency, purpose, or result in clauses introduced by <I>that</I> or <I>so that</I>: <CITE>expressing ideas so that the average person may understand.</CITE>   <LI>To be obliged; must. Used in statutes, deeds, and other legal documents.</LI></OL></div></blockquote>  <OL></OL>  <P>Any of those defintions of the word <I>may</I> could possibly be used in this case, and not all of them would allow a choice to be made in the matter (particularly 1 and 5).&nbsp;&nbsp;</P>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:43:28]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ghaz]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I feel that the "may" is written to allow the possibility of the infantry unit deep striking, rather than allow you to keep non-deep striking infantry in reserve.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 15:50:21]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ onlainari]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Gah... darn post-eating forum...<br><br><br>Basically, <br>Only Basic Infantry <i>are allowed</i> to be deployed at the start of the game<br><br>which is a very different rule from :<br>Basic Infantry <i>are allowed</i> to deploy at the start of the game, or <i>are allowed</i> to be held in Reserve.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:00:14]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ insaniak]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div><span  align="left">Its pretty clearly evident that the following rules quote and the accompanying defination of the word "may". Merely tells us that you deploy basic infantry that meet the requirements for escalation. I don't see where "may" is a proper term for a boolean argument.&nbsp; So if someone "chooses" to not deploy their infantry then they are not using the proper defination of the word "may" and would be in violation of the rules.<br><i><br>"In a mission using the Escalation rule, only basic infantry units that do not have dedicated transports <b>may be</b> deployed at the start of the game, unless the mission rules state otherwise".</i></span><br><br>Posted By Ghaz on 02/22/2006 8:43 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br><p>From <a target=_blank href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=may&amp;r=66" target="_blank"><font color="#000080">http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=may&amp;r=66</font></a></p>  <p>  </p><blockquote class="uncited"><div><b>may</b><sup><font size="-1">1</font></sup>&nbsp;&nbsp;(m<img  src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/amacr.gif" align="bottom"  >)<br><i>aux.v.</i> <i>Past tense</i> <b>might </b>(m<img  src="http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/imacr.gif" align="bottom"  >t)   <p></p>  <ol>  <li>To be allowed or permitted to: <cite>May I take a swim? Yes, you may.</cite>   </li><li>Used to indicate a certain measure of likelihood or possibility: <cite>It may rain this afternoon.</cite>   </li><li>Used to express a desire or fervent wish: <cite>Long may he live!</cite>   </li><li>Used to express contingency, purpose, or result in clauses introduced by <i>that</i> or <i>so that</i>: <cite>expressing ideas so that the average person may understand.</cite>   </li><li>To be obliged; must. Used in statutes, deeds, and other legal documents.</li></ol></div></blockquote>  <ol></ol>  <p>Any of those defintions of the word <i>may</i> could possibly be used in this case, and not all of them would allow a choice to be made in the matter (particularly 1 and 5).&nbsp;&nbsp;</p></div></blockquote><br><br>  ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:03:29]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Sazzlefrats]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ From page 84 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook, substituting the above definition #1 for the word <i>may</i>:<br><br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>"In a mission using the Escalation rule, only basic infantry units that do not have dedicated transports <b>are allowed or permitted to</b> be deployed at the start of the game, unless the mission rules state otherwise".<br></div></blockquote><br><span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(3);'>40K</span> is a permissive rules set.  You can only do what the rules allow or permit you to do.  Using the definition that I've used for the word <i>may</i>, where do the rules allow or permit you to do anything other than deploy your basic infantry units at the start of the game?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 17:48:31]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ghaz]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div> Using the definition that I've used for the word may, where do the rules allow or permit you to do anything other than deploy your basic infantry units at the start of the game?</div></blockquote><br><br>Well the overarching Reserve rule would permit or allow you keep your basic infantry in reserve--unless the Escalation rule is requiring that they be deployed, which it might be doing.  The phrasing isn't clear enough to determine one way or the other]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:19:44]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Actually the <i>Reserves</i> rule doesn't allow you to put a unit into reserve.  It's dependent on the mission.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 18:39:57]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ghaz]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I misspoke (mis-wrote?).  The rule that allows you to put units in reserve is in the next part of the Escalation rules: "All units not deployed are in reserve and will arrive in accordance with the normal Reserve rules."<br><br>So in the Escalation rules you are permitted/allowed to deploy basic troops.  Any units you don't deploy are in reserve.  Basic troops are units, so if you don't deploy them, according to the Escalation rules they are in reserve.<br><br>...or at least, that is one possible reading of the rules.  In the other reading "may" means "must" and the only units not deployed are transported infantry and non-basic-infantry units.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:14:05]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Flavius Infernus on 02/23/2006 12:14 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(682);'>AM</span><br>I misspoke (mis-wrote?). The rule that allows you to put units in reserve is in the next part of the Escalation rules: "All units not deployed are in reserve and will arrive in accordance with the normal Reserve rules." </div></blockquote><br><br>That does not allow you to place units into reserve.  That simply tells you what happens to units that could not be deployed.  So far nothing states that the rules allow or permit you to do anything other than deploy your basic infantry units at the start of the game.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 22 Feb 2006 19:23:12]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ghaz]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>what happens to units that could not be deployed.</div></blockquote><br><br>If it clearly said this, there would be no issue.  But unfortunately the rule says what happens to units that *are not* deployed, not units that *could not* be deployed.<br><br>As others have pointed out, saying that you are permitted to deploy something is not the logical equivalent of saying that you must deploy all of them--especially when the rules present putting them in reserve as an alternative.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 03:26:01]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>As others have pointed out, saying that you are permitted to deploy something is not the logical equivalent of saying that you must deploy all of them--especially when the rules present putting them in reserve as an alternative.</div></blockquote><br>1) Warhammer 40,000 is a permissive rules set.  You can only do what the rules permit you to do.<br><br>2) Where do the rules permit you to put basic infantry units into reserve?  So far you've not proven that you can.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 04:48:48]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ghaz]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Proof that you can do it:<br><br>P1: "Units not deployed are in reserve."<br>P2: A basic (non-transported) infantry unit is a unit<br><br>conclusion: A basic (non-transported) infantry unit that is not deployed is in reserve.<br><br>Both premises are known to be true.  The conclusion follows logically, so must also be true.  Premise 1 is the permissive part of the rule that allows (in the absence of a specific exception) any unit to be kept in reserve.  <br><br>A rule that allows some units of a particular type to be deployed is not the same as a rule requiring all units of that type to be deployed.  Your logical flaw, Ghaz, is in a misreading of how the logic of the rule breaks down.  Using your phrasing:<br><br>"In a mission using the Escalation rule, only basic infantry units that do not have dedicated transports are allowed or permitted to be deployed at the start of the game, unless the mission rules state otherwise".<br><br>in propositional calculus is the logical equivalent of<br><br>"If deployed, then basic (non-transported) infantry."<br><br>According to the rules of logic, this statement cannot be taken to mean<br><br>"If basic (non-transported) infantry, then deployed."<br><br>The logic just doesn't allow that.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 07:03:29]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <P>Actually the logic is this:</P>  <P>&nbsp;</P>  <P>if basic infantry unit, then deploys first turn</P>  <P>if basic infantry unit with&nbsp;&nbsp;reserves rule, then deploys later than first turn&nbsp;if x. x= player's choice.</P>  <P>if basic infantry unit&nbsp;given&nbsp;reserves rule by scenario, then deploys later than first turn if x. x= scenario&nbsp;conditions.</P>  <P>&nbsp;</P>  <P><span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(400);'>AS</span> has been said the scenario only states that infantry are the only units allowed to deploy "normally". It does&nbsp;NOT say that they are allowed to&nbsp;be held in reserve&nbsp;if they don't have the rule.</P>  <P>your premise one was printed so that rules lawyers like us would know what to do with the units that do not deploy regularly.&nbsp;</P>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 08:59:48]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Lordhat]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Trying to avoid getting to technical here, but it has to do with the difference between "only" and "all."  The semantics really do go like this:<br><br>Only A may B = If B then A = If not A then B  *but* does not equal "If A then B"<br><br>For example, if I say "only police officers may wear a police uniform" then you know that (unless somebody is breaking the rules) if you see somebody wearing a police uniform, that is a police officer (If B then A).  You also know that if you see somebody who is not a police officer, then that person is not allowed to wear a police uniform. (If not A then B).<br><br>But if you see somebody who is not wearing a police uniform, you don't know for sure whether or not that person is a police officer, because the rule doesn't cover that condition.  It could be a plainclothes officer.  The fact that one group has permission to do something does not mean that all members of that group must do the thing.<br><br>Similarly a rule that says "only units of type A may deploy" means "If a unit is deployed, it is type A" and it means "if it is not deployed, then it is not type A."  But it does not mean "all units of type A must deploy."  There can be units of this type that don't deploy under this semantic formula--just like the plainclothes officer.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:29:06]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div> if basic infantry unit, then deploys first turn</div></blockquote><br><br>That's funny, my rulebook says "only infantry unit deploys first turn."  Last time I checked, that was different from "all infantry units deploy first turn.<br><br><blockquote class="uncited"><div>your premise one was printed so that rules lawyers like us would know what to do with the units that do not deploy regularly</div></blockquote><br><br>Begging the question.  This is only true if you assume that your conclusion is true.  I don't find any restriction in my rulebook that says basic, non-transported infantry are required to deploy.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:37:51]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Flavius Infernus on 02/23/2006 2:29 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><BR>Trying to avoid getting to technical here, but it has to do with the difference between "only" and "all." The semantics really do go like this:<BR><BR>Only A may B = If B then A = If not A then B *but* does not equal "If A then B"<BR><BR>For example, if I say "only police officers may wear a police uniform" then you know that (unless somebody is breaking the rules) if you see somebody wearing a police uniform, that is a police officer (If B then A). You also know that if you see somebody who is not a police officer, then that person is not allowed to wear a police uniform. (If not A then B).<BR><BR>But if you see somebody who is not wearing a police uniform, you don't know for sure whether or not that person is a police officer, because the rule doesn't cover that condition. It could be a plainclothes officer. The fact that one group has permission to do something does not mean that all members of that group must do the thing.<BR></div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div><FONT color=#ff0000>What if there was a second rule that said Police Officers must ALWAYS wear their uniform?</FONT></div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>&nbsp;</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div><BR>Similarly a rule that says "only units of type A may deploy" means "If a unit is deployed, it is type A" and it means "if it is not deployed, then it is not type A." But it does not mean "all units of type A must deploy."&nbsp;<FONT color=#ff0000>&nbsp; But as you just said "if it is not deployed then it is not type A", AND there IS a rule that says all units of type&nbsp;A must deploy, and there are rules that say when units of type A may be deployed irregularly. Nothing in the escalation rule says that type A units may break this first rule, outside of have the other rules.</FONT></div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT>&nbsp;</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div><FONT color=#ff0000>Escalation specifically mentions which units are held in reserve regardless of having the reserves rule. Anything that may deploy, must, per the basic rules. Anything that may deploy, but has reserves as a rule, can be held in reserve per the basic rules.</FONT></div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>&nbsp;</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>&nbsp;</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>&nbsp;</div></blockquote><BR><BR>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:48:48]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Lordhat]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Proof that you can do it:<br><br>P1: "Units not deployed are in reserve."<br>P2: A basic (non-transported) infantry unit is a unit<br><br>conclusion: A basic (non-transported) infantry unit that is not deployed is in reserve.</div></blockquote><br><br>That's not proof that you can choose to not deploy them... it's merely proof that IF you don't deploy them, they are in Reserve...]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:07:58]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ insaniak]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ ok I'll concede that.... but I guess I missed your stance on this topic..... care to restate it?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:10:49]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Lordhat]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div> there IS a rule that says all units of type A must deploy</div></blockquote><br><br>Please quote this rule for me; I can't find it.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:16:58]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div> That's not proof that you can choose to not deploy them... it's merely proof that IF you don't deploy them, they are in Reserve...</div></blockquote><br><br>Right, the phrasing of the Escalation rule "infantry may deploy" is not definitive enough to prove for sure whether or not you can choose to deploy basic infantry.  That's what I've been saying all along.  The argument that units not deployed to into reserve is meant to show that it doesn't create a contradiction in the rules if they choose not to deploy.  I was taking the "may choose" position in order to show that it is a consistent, possible interpretation of the Escalation rules (not the correct one).<br><br>It would be more accurate to say that the rules "infantry may deploy" and "units not deployed are in reserve" have two possible outcomes:<br>1. Units can choose not to deploy and can go into reserve instead.<br>2. All basic infantry units must deploy.<br><br>Both outcomes are consistent with the rules as stated.  An argument for either conclusion has to assume some kind of unstated condition, and so is unsound.  The rule is ambiguous and needs to be clarified in an <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(36);'>FAQ</span>.<br><br>That's my argument.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:27:54]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <P><span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(12);'>BGB</span> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(329);'>pg</span> 81: in the set up box, bullet 2, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(12);'>BGB</span> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(329);'>pg</span>. 82: in both set up boxes bullets 3, and 2 respectively, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(12);'>BGB</span> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(329);'>pg</span> 83..... etc.</P>  <P>&nbsp;</P>  <P>I can see already that you are going to refute that these bullets mean a player MUST deploy units. If you take that refutation to be true, then nobody EVER HAS to deploy anything and the game become unplayable, and the resrves rule becomes meaningless.</P>  <P>&nbsp;</P>  <P>The reality is that you aren't allowed to deploy contrary to the set up rules unless a mission rule states otherwise (reserves, escalation).</P>  <P>&nbsp;</P>  <P>If escalation said Infantry units without a transport MUST be deployed at the start of the game then those unit type that DO have the reserves rule wouldn't be able to use it, and we'd be having this debate about that.</P>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:36:16]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Lordhat]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Both outcomes are consistent with the rules as stated. An argument for either conclusion has to assume some kind of unstated condition, and so is unsound. The rule is ambiguous and needs to be clarified in an <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(36);'>FAQ</span>.</div></blockquote><br><br>Unless the 'assumed' condition is that, at the start of the game, all units must deploy. Without a rulebook with me, I can't check and see if that's the case, but it could be, ie. the rules say that under normal circumstances, you must deploy all units at the start of the game.<br><br>In that case, an argument might look like:<br><br>P1. All units must deploy at the start of a game.<br>P2. Under Escalation Rules, only basic infantry units may deploy at the start of a game.<br>P3. Units not deployed are in Reserve.<br><br>Conclusion: Only basic infantry units deploy at the start of a game under Escalation rules; other units are in Reserve.<br><br>Again, I don't know if P1 is true by the rules without my book, but I'm sure someone can check it. It may well follow as a closed world assumption from the Reserve rules, ie. unless the Reserve rules permit it, it can be assumed that you must deploy all units at the start of the game. Otherwise, the rule is indeed ambiguous.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:42:59]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Relic_OMO]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ But there's nothing saying that undeployed infantry units go into Reserves; you can choose not to deploy any of your "start on table" assets and simply leave them on deck all game.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 10:51:48]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ MattBaby]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Relic's formulation is clearest and can be used to show that, since the Premise 1 that Relic states does not exist to my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong), if you assume it is true, you get one outcome from the Escalation rules.  If you do not assume it is true, then you get the other outcome from the Escalation rules.  Without this rule, there is no way to get a sound conclusion.<br><br>LordHat's bullet points don't cover the situation as a general rule--the Reserve rules (which, we are told, are always used in conjunction with the Escalation rules) state quite clearly that a unit in reserve doesn't deploy.  So, once again, if you assume that they can choose then they don't have to deploy.  If you assume that they must deploy then they must deploy.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 11:13:27]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Flavius Infernus on 02/23/2006 4:13 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><BR><BR><BR>LordHat's bullet points don't cover the situation as a general rule</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>&nbsp;</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>&nbsp;</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>This is correct; They are specific rules: specific to the scenario. Reserves and Escalation are exceptions to these rules, and as such exceptions they clearly define how and to whom these exceptions are applied.</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>&nbsp;</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>The fact is there is no "deployment rule". Deployment is unique to each scenario, and therefor you can't deviate from the deployment procedure listed in each scenario, except when prompted to by the scenario exceptions and the rules they provide.</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>&nbsp;</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>When the Scenario says to take turns deploying units in this order, until all units are deployed, that is what you do. If the scenario has Escalation as a rule, then effectively all units except infantry without a transport gain "compulsory reserves". Since escalation does not go on to state, or even imply, that infantry without a transport gain the "voluntary reserves" rule, then you have to default back to the set up rules for their deployment. </div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>&nbsp;</div></blockquote>  <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Again, the usage of the word "may" instead of "must", is to make sure that an infantry unit without transports&nbsp;can take advantage of any reserves rule it may already have. </div></blockquote>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 12:25:58]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Lordhat]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Relic's formulation is clearest and can be used to show that, since the Premise 1 that Relic states does not exist to my knowledge (please correct me if I'm wrong), if you assume it is true, you get one outcome from the Escalation rules. If you do not assume it is true, then you get the other outcome from the Escalation rules. Without this rule, there is no way to get a sound conclusion.</div></blockquote><br><br>I think I have it. As I said in my last post, the argument can essentially be boiled down to assuming P1 from my last argument: 'All units must be deployed at the start of the game.' If you assume that this is true, then Escalation does not allow you to choose to not deploy basic infantry, because of the following argument.<br><br>P1. All units must deploy at the start of a game.<br>P2. Under Escalation Rules, only basic infantry units may deploy at the start of a game.<br>P3. Units not deployed are in Reserve.<br><br>Conclusion: Only basic infantry units deploy at the start of a game under Escalation rules; other units are in Reserve.<br><br>On the other hand, if you do not assume that all units must be deployed at the start of the game, then the above argument does not apply, and the use of the word 'may' in the Escalation rules suggests that you can choose to deploy or not deploy. As Flavius has said, it is ambiguous if you do not assume that all units must deploy at the start of the game.<br><br>I can't find a rule that states that all units must be deployed at the start of the game. However, I do find that in the description of all five basic missions, it says 'players take turns deploying one unit at a time, until their army is fully deployed', or 'players take turns deploying one unit at a time, until all available models are on the tabletop'. To me, that says it pretty clearly - the rules for all missions require you to deploy all units. Reserves, Deep Strike, and Escalation provide exceptions to this rule. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 12:50:23]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Relic_OMO]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Good argument Relic, extended from LordHat's use of the Set Up rules for how to deploy.<BR><BR>But what is an "available" model? The reserve rules tell us that units in reserve are not deployed but "become available" later on in the game. Therefore (and I can show this more explicitly on request) a unit in reserve is not "available" for deployment.<BR><BR>So the Set Up rules don't say that all units must be deployed, they say that all "available" units must be deployed. In other words, all units that are not in reserve must be deployed.&nbsp; Which leads us back around again to the same problem: if you assume that units can choose in Escalation, then they are not available, and don't have to be deployed under the set-up rules. <BR><BR>And, again the disclaimer, I'm not saying this conclusion is correct. I'm saying that the rules don't prohibit this reading (and aren't definite enough on any other reading) so it is impossible to determine which conclusion is correct.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 13:05:34]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <P>I'm done arguing.... only people looking to tweak an advantage out of this rule can argue that the word "may" gives&nbsp;a unit&nbsp;the reserve rule if they don't already have it. </P>  <P>BASIC PREMISE OF SET UP:</P>  <P>If the unit does not have the reserve rule in any of it's forms, it is deployed at set up.Apply exceptions here. Until the word "may" has a defintion in the game meaning "Has reserves", infantry units without transports deploy normally.</P>  <P>&nbsp;</P>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 13:27:40]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Lordhat]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>So the Set Up rules don't say that all units must be deployed, they say that all "available" units must be deployed. In other words, all units that are not in reserve must be deployed.  Which leads us back around again to the same problem: if you assume that units can choose in Escalation, then they are not available, and don't have to be deployed under the set-up rules. </div></blockquote><br><br>That would be true, but for the fact that the only rationale there can be for assuming I can choose is that I believe units are not automatically 'available' for deployment at the start of the game. Therefore, I can only choose to make them 'unavailable' (ie. in Reserve) if I assume that they are not automatically 'available'. <br><br>The rules, however, don't give me that option. They say 'deploy all available models'. The only time a model is 'unavailable' is if it is in Reserve. But the rules for Escalation only say that models not deployed are in Reserve, ie. unavailable for deployment. This is circular - in essence, it says that models that are not deployed are unavailable for deployment. Therefore, I must assume that all models at the start of an Escalation game are 'available', because the rules only say that models that are not deployed are in Reserve and unavailable. The Escalation rules go on to say that I can only deploy basic infantry - this then makes all other kinds of units unavailable for deployment, and the Reserves rule tells me what happens to them. It doesn't, however, invalidate the availability status of other units.<br><br>Put in argument form, it looks like:<br><br>P1. All units are either available for deployment or unavailable for deployment at the start of the game.<br>P2. The rules only say that units in Reserve are unavailable for deployment.<br>P3. The Escalation rules say that units not deployed are in Reserve.<br><br>Conclusion: Under the Escalation rules, only units that are not deployed are unavailable for deployment.<br><br>This is a trite argument, but it then leads into:<br><br>P1. Under the Escalation rules, only units that are not deployed are unavailable for deployment.<br>P2. Under the Escalation rules, all units that are not basic infantry are not deployed.<br><br>Conclusion: Under the Escalation rules, units that are basic infantry are available for deployment.<br><br>And since the rules tell you you must deploy all available models, that's what you must do.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 13:44:46]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Relic_OMO]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ The second argument is not trite at all, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(72);'>IMO</span>.  It is the gist of the disagreement.<br><br>But the conclusion of the second argument as stated doesn't follow logically from the premises.  The conclusion of the second argument--based on the premises here--should read "All units that are not basic infantry are unavailable for deployment." <br><br>(Take another look, cancel the terms "are not deployed" and  that's what's left.)<br><br>We already knew that from the Escalation rules: it's the contrapositive of the statement "only basic infantry may be deployed."  ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 13:54:02]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Forgot to add a third premise, which would then read:<br><br>P1. Under the Escalation rules, only units that are not deployed are unavailable for deployment.<br>P2. Under the Escalation rules, all units that are not basic infantry are not deployed.<br>P3. All units are either available for deployment or unavailable for deployment at the start of the game.<br><br>Conclusion: Under the Escalation rules, all units that are not basic infantry are unavailable for deployment; all units that are basic infantry are available for deployment.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 23 Feb 2006 14:20:47]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Relic_OMO]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Relic_OMO on 02/23/2006 7:20 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><BR>Forgot to add a third premise, which would then read:<BR><BR>P1. Under the Escalation rules, only units that are not deployed are unavailable for deployment.<BR>P2. Under the Escalation rules, all units that are not basic infantry are not deployed.<BR>P3. All units are either available for deployment or unavailable for deployment at the start of the game.<BR><BR>Conclusion: Under the Escalation rules, all units that are not basic infantry are unavailable for deployment; all units that are basic infantry are available for deployment.</div></blockquote><BR><BR>Your conclusion is still slightly flawed. You are assuming that since it does not specifically state that basic infantry are unavailable, then they must be available. Based on the three premises above, this is simply not true. Basic infantry might be available and they might be unavailable;&nbsp;the state of availability of basic infantry remains unknown.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 24 Feb 2006 02:31:32]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ blue loki]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Your conclusion is still slightly flawed. You are assuming that since it does not specifically state that basic infantry are unavailable, then they must be available. Based on the three premises above, this is simply not true. Basic infantry might be available and they might be unavailable; the state of availability of basic infantry remains unknown.</div></blockquote><br><br>Well, actually, I am assuming that units are either available or unavailable for deployment. If there is a way that they can be neither available or unavailable, then by all means, show me how. I am also assuming that units are either basic infantry or not basic infantry. Again, this is a simple statement of A/not A - they must be one or the other.<br><br>The premises then state that only units that are not deployed are unavailable. This follows because of the first argument - the rules say that units that are not deployed are in Reserve, and the rules only say that units that are in Reserve are unavailable for deployment. Therefore, if only units that are in Reserve are unavailable for deployment, all other units must be available for deployment.<br><br>Essentially, this is a method of proving an assumption we all make - that you must deploy all units at the start of the game. This is not actually stated in the rules, but every mission does say that you must deploy all available models. A model must therefore be either available or unavailable for deployment. What models are unavailable for deployment? Only those that are in Reserve. (The rules do not state any other way that a model becomes unavailable for deployment.) Therefore, what models are available for deployment? Those that are not in Reserve. Under Escalation rules, what models are in Reserve? Those that are not deployed. This is a circular premise that basically states, 'only models that are not deployed are unavailable for deployment, and are therefore in Reserve'. The only way to make a model unavailable for deployment is for it to be in Reserve, and thus not deployed. All other models are considered to be available for deployment. Without any other rules or directions, the number of models that are therefore unavailable for deployment is zero. Only models that are in Reserve are unavailable for deployment, and in the absence of any other rules, there are no models in Reserve.<br><br>The Escalation rules also tell us, however, that only basic infantry may be deployed. This is the rule that tells us that models that are not basic infantry are not available for deployment, in the specific circumstance of an Escalation game. Therefore there are now models that are not deployed, and they go into Reserve, making them unavailable for deployment. Deep Striking is similar - the rule for Deep Strike gives us the option to put models in Reserve, thereby making them unavailable for deployment. Essentially, the rules only say that models in Reserve are unavailable for deployment - they give no other general way of making a model unavailable for deployment. And the only way of putting a model in Reserve is not to deploy it, meaning that in the absence of any way that tells you how not to deploy a model, no models are in Reserve. Deep Strike and Escalation give ways of making them unavailable, so in those circumstances we can or must do so. Otherwise, we must assume that all models are available for deployment, since there is no way of making them unavailable.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 24 Feb 2006 06:37:27]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Relic_OMO]]></author>
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				<title>RE:Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted By Relic_OMO on 02/23/2006 7:20 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><BR>P2. Under the Escalation rules, all units that are not basic infantry are not deployed.<BR><BR>Conclusion: Under the Escalation rules, all units that are not basic infantry are unavailable for deployment; all units that are basic infantry are available for deployment.</div></blockquote>  <P><BR><BR>The problem with your premises is right here: "all units that are not basic infantry are not deployed" does not necessarily also mean "all units that are basic infantry are deployed". Basic infantry could be either deployed or not deployed, but your premises do not tell us which one applies to them. Your premises only tell us what happens to units that are not basic infantry. I'm not saying there are more than two different "states" of deployment or availability, I'm simply saying that, by your premises, which "state" applies is not defined.</P>  <P>The argument flows something like this: "all&nbsp;fruits that are not&nbsp;apples are not on the table" does not mean that "all&nbsp;fruits that are&nbsp;apples are on the table". The table could be completely empty, but&nbsp;we are not given enough information to say one way or the other.</P>  <P>&nbsp;</P>  <P>EDIT: In order to complete your argument, you need a fourth premise that proves something like "All units not specifically stated as being unavailable for deployment are, by default, available for deployment". Without this fourth premise, we do not know the availability of units that are not specifically declared unavailable, they might be available or unavailable for some other reason.</P>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 24 Feb 2006 07:44:29]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ blue loki]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>The problem with your premises is right here: "all units that are not basic infantry are not deployed" does not necessarily also mean "all units that are basic infantry are deployed". Basic infantry could be either deployed or not deployed, but your premises do not tell us which one applies to them. Your premises only tell us what happens to units that are not basic infantry. I'm not saying there are more than two different "states" of deployment or availability, I'm simply saying that, by your premises, which "state" applies is not defined.</div></blockquote><br><br>Read this argument then, which is what I have amended it to:<br><br>P1. Under the Escalation rules, only units that are not deployed are unavailable for deployment.<br>P2. Under the Escalation rules, all units that are not basic infantry are not deployed.<br>P3. All units are either available for deployment or unavailable for deployment at the start of the game.<br><br>Conclusion: Under the Escalation rules, only units that are not basic infantry are unavailable for deployment; all units that are basic infantry are available for deployment.<br><br>I'm not saying that there is an equivalence between 'all units that are not basic infantry are not deployed' and 'all units that are basic infantry are deployed'. I am saying that only models that are not deployed are unavailable for deployment. While that statement might seem obvious and stupid, it is important, because of the fact that <i>only</i> models that are not deployed are unavailable for deployment. This stems from the idea that the only way for a model to be unavailable for deployment in the rules is for it to be in Reserve. No other method is described. That means that unless a model is in Reserve, it is available for deployment. When is a model in Reserve? Under the basic rules, never. There is no way for a model to be in Reserve unless it is permitted or required to be so by another rule. Escalation and Deep Strike provide ways for models to be in Reserve, and hence, unavailable for deployment. In other words, in the absence of any other directions, the only way to create the condition of being unavailable for deployment is to not be deployed, and the only way to not deploy is to be unavailable for deployment. This is a circular argument that can only be made sense of when other directions are added, eg. under Escalation rules, units that are not basic infantry are not deployed.<br><br>Let me put it this way.<br><br>1. A model must be either available for deployment or unavailable for deployment.<br>2. A model is only unavailable for deployment if it is in Reserve. (Again, no other method of being unavailable for deployment is described.)<br>3. If a model is in Reserve, it is unavailable for deployment.<br>4. If a model is not in Reserve, it is available for deployment.<br><br>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 24 Feb 2006 09:23:53]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Relic_OMO]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Sorry for the delay--needed a night of rest before being able to deal with triple premises.<BR><BR>There's still a logical error--the conclusion doesn't follow logically from the premises.<BR><BR>Let A= "non-transported, basic infantry" Let B= "available for deployment/deployed" (accepting with no problem that all available units must be deployed in all known scenarios)<BR><BR>Premise 1: "only units that are not deployed are unavailable for deployment" = "If not B, then not B"<BR>Premise 2 "all units that are not basic infantry are not deployed" = "If not A then not B"<BR>Premise 3 "All units are either available for deployment or unavailable for deployment at the start of the game" = "If A or not A then B or not B"<BR><BR>Putting it in propositional calculus kind of reveals how premises 1 and 3 aren't really saying anything. If you cancel out all the like terms to get to a conclusion you arrive at "If not A, then not B" which we already knew from the escalation rules.<BR><BR>The conclusion is actually two conclusions: "If not B, then not A" and "All A are B" neither of&nbsp;which&nbsp;which can be logically derived from the premises.<BR><BR>...or to put it in plain language without all the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(14);'>Bs</span> and As... (next post)]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:42:16]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ "only units that are not deployed are unavailable for deployment"<br>plus<br>"all units that are not basic infantry are not deployed"<br>gives the conclusion<br>"all units that are not basic infantry are unavailable for deployment" (which is the contrapositive of premise 1)<br>that conclusion plus the premise<br>"All units are either available for deployment or unavailable for deployment at the start of the game"<br>gives the conclusion<br>"All basic infantry are either available for deployment or unavailable for deployment at the start of the game."<br><br>So even with the circular statements about availablity, you can't get to a conclusion about the availability status of basic infantry from the available premises.  To get there you need a statement about all basic infantry--which isn't in the rules.<br><br>We could also take the shortcut that the classical logicians figured this out a long time ago--circular premises don't advance<br>an argument.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:52:34]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>The conclusion is actually two conclusions: "If not B, then not A" and "All A are B" neither of which which can be logically derived from the premises.<br> </div></blockquote><br><br>Actually, when I was going back over this I noticed that this is actually one conclusion.  They are contrapositives (logical equivalents) of each other.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 24 Feb 2006 11:59:07]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>So even with the circular statements about availablity, you can't get to a conclusion about the availability status of basic infantry from the available premises. To get there you need a statement about all basic infantry--which isn't in the rules.</div></blockquote><br><br>Look at it without the Escalation rules then. All I am trying to do with these convolutions is prove the premise mentioned on page 2: All units must deploy at the start of the game. Once that is shown, the Escalation problem is solved. <br><br>There is no statement that says, all units must deploy at the start of the game. However, there is a statement that says that all available units must be deployed. Therefore, what is required is to show that all units are available for deployment. And that then leads to the idea that the only way for a model to be unavailable for deployment is for it to be in Reserve. So when is a model not deployed? When it is unavailable for deployment. When is it unavailable for deployment? When it is in Reserve. When is it in Reserve? Never, since the Reserve rules mention no way of placing models in reserve without any other directions.<br><br>In other words:<br><br>P1. A unit is either available for deployment or unavailable for deployment. "Either A or not A."<br>P2. A unit is only unavailable for deployment if it is in Reserve. "All not A are R."<br><br>Conclusion: A unit that is not in Reserve is available for deployment. "If not R, then A."<br><br>What this means is that if a unit is not in Reserve, it is available for deployment, and, since we are told to deploy all available models, we must deploy all units at the start of the game. <br>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 24 Feb 2006 17:27:35]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Relic_OMO]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ And I still say that your argument doesn't say anything, Relic.<BR><BR>I agree that units not deployed are in reserve and all units that are not in reserve must be deployed. Using the translation spelled out in your post here, I agree that If not A then R.<BR><BR>"Either A or not A." doesn't say anything. In if/then construction this argument says "If A or not A then A or not A." There's no point in even saying this in argumentative terms.<BR>"All not A are R"--or more properly "If not A then R" is in the rules. I already agree with that.<BR>"If not R then A" is the <a target=_blank href="http://regentsprep.org/regents/math/relcond/Lcontrap.htm">contrapositive </A>of "If not A then R." The one doesn't follow logically as a conclusion from the other, rather they mean exactly the same thing--and it's something that I already agree with.<BR><BR>In order to get to "all infantry must deploy" you need to get to *that* conclusion. Honestly I don't think it's possible to get there based on the rules given without a logical error.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:35:18]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ The point is, however, that there is no way for a unit to be in Reserve unless you are told you have the option of putting them there. And the only way known to have a unit unavailable for deployment is for it to be in Reserve.<br><br>If a unit that is not in Reserve is available for deployment (as we agree), then all units are available for deployment. Reserve only tell us what happens to units that are not deployed. The only way to not deploy a unit is to consider it unavailable for deployment, and it is not considered unavailable for deployment until it is in Reserve, which only happens when the rules tell us something is in Reserve, or that we have the option of putting it in Reserve. Once it is shown that all units, in all scenarios, are considered available for deployment, then the rules tell us that we must deploy all available units, so everything must deploy. <br><br>Put more simply, unless it can be shown that there is a way for a unit to be unavailable for deployment without being in Reserve, then all units are considered available for deployment, and must deploy. If we can agree on that, then there is no problem with the Escalation rules.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 26 Feb 2006 11:57:16]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Relic_OMO]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted by Flavius Infernus on 02/26/2006 3:35 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br>In order to get to "all infantry must deploy" you need to get to *that* conclusion. Honestly I don't think it's possible to get there based on the rules given without a logical error.</div></blockquote><br>Using that argument, I would therefore be able to place any unit in Reserve in any mission, regardless.  Is that what you're trying to say?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 26 Feb 2006 12:27:14]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ghaz]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Again, I am not arguing that the rules allow you to voluntarily keep units in reserve. I am arguing that the escalation rules don't give enough information to determine whether or not you can voluntarily keep units in reserve, and that neither conclusion can be reached without an argument from ignorance fallacy.<br><br>"...only basic infantry units that do not have dedicated transports may be deployed at the start of the game, unless the mission rules state otherwise.  All units not deployed are in reserve and will arrive in accordance with the normal Reserves rules."<br><br>This part of the Escalation rules, because it uses the word "may" and talks about the units that *don't* deploy, makes an exception to the ordinary "all units must deploy" rules.   The thing in question is that it's not clear here whether or not the exception to the general "all units must deploy" rule extends to include basic infantry or not because of the use of the word "may" in the escalation rules.<br><br>So if you assume that this exception extends to basic troops, then you can keep them in reserve.  If you assume that it doesn't then they can't.  Neither conclusion has more logical merit than the other, and neither can be shown without making an assumption.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:24:45]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Posted by Flavius Infernus on 02/26/2006 10:24 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(634);'>PM</span><br>I am arguing that the escalation rules don't give enough information to determine whether or not you can voluntarily keep units in reserve, and that neither conclusion can be reached without an argument from ignorance fallacy.</div></blockquote><br>And exactly how does the wording of <i>Escalation</i> change anything?  Or do you have the same problem concerning Reserves in all of the missions where it is not specified, regardless of whether or not <i>Escalation</i> is in play.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:05:15]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ghaz]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>This part of the Escalation rules, because it uses the word "may" and talks about the units that *don't* deploy, makes an exception to the ordinary "all units must deploy" rules. </div></blockquote><br><br>From what I see, it can only be read as an exception if you assume that you don't have to deploy all units at the start of a game. That's an assumption that has no basis in the rules. The rules say you must deploy all available units, and all units are available. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 26 Feb 2006 17:06:43]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Relic_OMO]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Gah! I lost my post!]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:12:51]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Zubbiefish]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I mean; one guy is wrong an the other is right.<br>I'll be back.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:13:58]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Zubbiefish]]></author>
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				<title>RE: Choosing not to deploy in Escalation</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Okay.<br>All units are available at the beginning of the game.<br>Some units may be unavailable to deploy due to certain rules.<br>Escalation is one such 'certain rule'.<br>Due to the specific rule some units may deploy.<br><br>That's as non-sensical as you get.<br>I agree.<br>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 26 Feb 2006 18:26:57]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Zubbiefish]]></author>
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