Latest posts for the thread "In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect"

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

The Palestinian militant group that governs Gaza, Hamas, has condemned the murder of Italian pro-Palestinian activist Vittorio Arrigoni.

A Hamas spokesman described the killing as "against the humanity... of the Palestinian people".

Mr Arrigoni was found dead hours after being seized on Thursday by a radical group in conflict with Hamas.

Police said he was found hanged in a Gaza City apartment and two people have been arrested.

'Awful' killing
Mr Arrigoni, 36, was seized by Salafist radicals, an Islamist movement that considers Hamas as too moderate, BBC Gaza correspondent Jon Donnison says.

The Salafists had threatened to execute Mr Arrigoni by 1400 GMT on Friday unless several prisoners, including their leader, Sheikh Abu Walid al-Maqdasi, were released. Sheikh Maqdasi was arrested by Hamas police last month in Gaza City.

In a video posted on YouTube, Mr Arrigoni appeared to have been beaten and his eyes were covered with thick black tape.

A caption on the video read: "The Italian hostage entered our land only to spread corruption." The video called Italy "the infidel state".

It is not clear why Mr Arrigoni was killed before the given deadline, but the Hamas interior ministry said he had died soon after being abducted.

Hamas officials said two people had been arrested and others were being sought, but gave no further details.

Interior ministry spokesman Ehab al-Ghussein said Mr Arrigoni was killed "in an awful way".

Mr Ghussein told reporters that the security forces had been led to the house in Gaza City after a tip-off.

He described the killing as a "heinous crime which has nothing to do with our values, our religion, our customs and traditions", and vowed to hunt down and bring to justice those who were involved.

Hamas spokesman Salama Marouf said the killing went "against the humanity and against the custom and tradition of the Palestinian people".

About 2,000 people in Gaza attended a rally to protest Mr Arrigoni's killing.

'Humble man'
In Rome, the Italian foreign ministry expressed "its deep horror over the barbaric murder".

Italian diplomats have been in touch with Israel regarding the transfer of the body from the Gaza Strip, possibly on Sunday, an Israeli official has told the BBC.

His mother said he was a humble man.

"He never hung out with the powerful, he never went to the 'palaces,' if that's what you can call those [headquarters] of Hamas," Egidia Beretta said.

"He had two rooms in this apartment house that overlooked the port," she told Italian TV.

Friends of the activist gathered outside the hospital where his body had been taken on Friday morning.

"He came from across the world, left his country and family and his entire life and came here to break the siege, and we kill him? Why?" asked one of his friends.

Mr Arrigoni was a member of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) and had been in Gaza for several years.

Huwaida Arraf, a co-founder of the ISM, said he was very well-known in the territory and had a "dynamic, humanitarian personality".

"I even thought that whoever has him is going to see his humanity and just let him go, so when I heard what happened to him I was totally shocked," she told the AFP news agency.

Hamas had been credited with eliminating the threat of kidnapping in Gaza until his abduction.

Mr Arrigoni was the first foreigner kidnapped in Gaza since BBC journalist Alan Johnston was abducted in 2007.

Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit has been held in Gaza since June 2006. He was captured in a raid into Israel by Hamas and other militant groups.

Awful event perpetrated by awful people. Also ironic.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Frazzled — GMT

Excellent.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Bastion of Mediocrity — GMT

I had no idea that Hamas and Al Queda did not like each other. Shame that he died fighting for another people's rights (even if I don't neccessarily agree with his political position), it is still a shame. The more I learn about the middle east, the less I understand it.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:I had no idea that Hamas and Al Queda did not like each other. Shame that he died fighting for another people's rights (even if I don't neccessarily agree with his political position), it is still a shame. The more I learn about the middle east, the less I understand it.

American news does a really good job misrepresenting muslim groups as being homogenous. In reality they are extremely fragmented and typically hesitant to work alongside eachother if not outright hostile to one another.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Bastion of Mediocrity — GMT

That makes since, when Christianity was more "terrorist" (killing because of sect Anglicans killing Catholics, Catholics killing Huguenots, etc.) being Christian was not homogenous.

Sad thing is that he was probably muslim himself, and I am pretty sure the Koran is not forgiving about killing believers . . . gotta grieve for the family.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Frazzled wrote:Excellent.

Care to explain why you think it's excellent that an innocent man was brutally murdered? I wouldn't of asked this but its been several hours since I reported your post and it's readily apparent that the report button goes to a mailbox that no one reads.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Mannahnin — GMT

It's not excellent. I suspect Frazzled was trying to be humorous, in an extremely tasteless way.

Alert Mod button hits go where all mods can see them. The vast majority of actions taken by moderators in response to Alerts are not visible to anyone but the member/s who made the post.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Melissia — GMT

Bastion of Mediocrity wrote:That makes since, when Christianity was more "terrorist" (killing because of sect Anglicans killing Catholics, Catholics killing Huguenots, etc.) being Christian was not homogenous.

Sad thing is that he was probably muslim himself, and I am pretty sure the Koran is not forgiving about killing believers . . . gotta grieve for the family.

It still is in places.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

mattyrm — GMT

Im not really seeing how Frazzled comment was in "extremely" poor taste? I mean, yeah, torturing people like that is horrific, Im always concerned about needless torture, but a bit of death doesnt really bother me, how innocent was he if he was an activitst for Hamas? An internationally recognised terrorist orginisation?

Im a proud British citizen, and Hamas as a whole was designated a terrorist organization by the UK Government in 2003 with no distinction made between its military and non-military wings. Thats good enough for me.

If this man was such an ardent supporter of them, then why should I be concerned he got rubbed out?

I find the hypocrisy of the anti Isreali lot to be so ridiculous its actually amusing. Should we all be "sad" when OBL shuffles off if he gets beat up a bit first? (If he already hasn't)

No no, then the same Americans will gleefully pump their fists with joy.

I mean, I would as well, I hope the mother fether is 6 feet under as we speak, but at least im not being a hypocrite from the get go.

Re:In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Medium of Death — GMT

*Golfclap*

It's a credit to the intellect of the extremist group that did this really.

Apparently Hamas sees this act as a 'direct confrontation' of their leadership.

I would imagine these Salafist chaps shall be making a swift departure from the holy land courtesy of Hamas in the not too distant future.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

mattyrm wrote:Im not really seeing how Frazzled comment was in "extremely" poor taste? I mean, yeah, torturing people like that is horrific, Im always concerned about needless torture, but a bit of death doesnt really bother me, how innocent was he if he was an activitst for Hamas? An internationally recognised terrorist orginisation?

I must agree.

I can only hope that this will serve as a wake-up call for others who commiserate with these animals.

_______________

On an unrelated note I have thought better of feeding a troll.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

If this man was such an ardent supporter of them, then why should I be concerned he got rubbed out?

Theoretically because you're a human being and not some sort of bloodthirsty anti Arab English imperialist who loves his country and hates reading THE ACTUAL ARTICLE ITSELF. When you say gak like that it reminds me why I don't actually like talking to ex military people. It robs them of their ability to think with compassion when its something they were trained to think wasn't human.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

sexiest_hero — GMT

The innocent don't deserve to die regardless of what they believe.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:When you say gak like that it reminds me why I don't actually like talking to ex military people. It robs them of their ability to think with compassion when its something they were trained to think wasn't human.

Make sweeping generalizations, much?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
mattyrm wrote:Im not really seeing how Frazzled comment was in "extremely" poor taste? I mean, yeah, torturing people like that is horrific, Im always concerned about needless torture, but a bit of death doesnt really bother me, how innocent was he if he was an activitst for Hamas? An internationally recognised terrorist orginisation?

I must agree.

I can only hope that this will serve as a wake-up call for others who commiserate with these animals.

_______________

On an unrelated note I have thought better of feeding a troll.

Monsters Rain, if you had even the slightest, tiniest idea what you were talking about, about anything relating to hamas, gaza, or the Palestinians at all, I would be shocked. Hamas is a political organization. It hires teachers, the police, fireman. It's the government. It's not a bunch of child eaters in a fething cave.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

sexiest_hero wrote:The innocent don't deserve to die regardless of what they belive.

Though I do think that this should go without saying, QFT.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:When you say gak like that it reminds me why I don't actually like talking to ex military people. It robs them of their ability to think with compassion when its something they were trained to think wasn't human.

Make sweeping generalizations, much?

Says the guy that thinks hamas is an organization composed entirely of "animals". The dude was a palestinian sympathizer, I know you didn't read the article because it's somehow beneath you. But acting in a cavalier way to a brutal murder because he sympathized with a political cause that you (incredibly ignorantly) think is a terrorist army is still pretty wrong.

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Monster Rain wrote:
sexiest_hero wrote:The innocent don't deserve to die regardless of what they belive.

Though I do think that this should go without saying, QFT.

Monster Rain wrote:
mattyrm wrote:Im not really seeing how Frazzled comment was in "extremely" poor taste? I mean, yeah, torturing people like that is horrific, Im always concerned about needless torture, but a bit of death doesnt really bother me, how innocent was he if he was an activitst for Hamas? An internationally recognised terrorist orginisation?

I must agree.

I can only hope that this will serve as a wake-up call for others who commiserate with these animals.

Oh man. So you don't care that he was killed, but don't think the innocent should die? I love the cognitive dissonance of the ignorant. And don't worry, even though you edited out the post where you called hamas (and palestinians in general) animals I'll keep it alive and well.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:When you say gak like that it reminds me why I don't actually like talking to ex military people. It robs them of their ability to think with compassion when its something they were trained to think wasn't human.

Make sweeping generalizations, much?

Says the guy that thinks hamas is an organization composed entirely of baby killing terrorists.

Oh, okay. Hamas isn't a terrorist organization.

Fascinating what I learn in the OT forum. I can't wait to read about how you're being unjustly persecuted by moderators after you flame out again.

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ShumaGorath wrote:Oh man. So you don't care that he was killed, but don't think the innocent should die? I love the cognitive dissonance of the ignorant. And don't worry, even though you edited out the post where you called hamas (and palestinians in general) animals I'll keep it alive and well.

Don't type angry, bro.

I think if you read my posts without being quite so reactionary it wouldn't be so dissonant. Also, note how I haven't responded to any of your insults in kind. Go outside for a bit, friend.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:When you say gak like that it reminds me why I don't actually like talking to ex military people. It robs them of their ability to think with compassion when its something they were trained to think wasn't human.

Make sweeping generalizations, much?

Says the guy that thinks hamas is an organization composed entirely of baby killing terrorists.

Oh, okay. Hamas isn't a terrorist organization.

Fascinating what I learn in the OT forum. I can't wait to read about how you're being unjustly persecuted by moderators after you flame out again.

Israeli government kills several thousand Palestinians in a decade = not terrorist
Israelis demolish Palestinian homes and murder civilians = not terrorist
Israelis attack aid convoys and murder civilians with guns to "send a message" = not terrorist

24 people are killed in rocket attacks in an entire decade = ENTIRE GOVERNMENT IS TERRORISTS INCLUDING THE TEACHERS, POLICEMEN, AND FIREMEN THAT ARE IN THE PARTY.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:Israeli government kills several thousand Palestinians in a decade = not terrorist
Israelis demolish Palestinian homes and murder civilians = not terrorist
Israelis attack aid convoys and murder civilians with guns to "send a message" = not terrorist

24 people are killed in rocket attacks in an entire decade = ENTIRE GOVERNMENT IS TERRORISTS INCLUDING THE TEACHERS, POLICEMEN, AND FIREMEN THAT ARE IN THE PARTY.

Oh, this again.

Actually, now that you've typed in caps I can see that your point is valid. You've changed my mind completely. Wait, no, on second thought I think I'll keep agreeing with Canada and the EU that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Israeli government kills several thousand Palestinians in a decade = not terrorist
Israelis demolish Palestinian homes and murder civilians = not terrorist
Israelis attack aid convoys and murder civilians with guns to "send a message" = not terrorist

24 people are killed in rocket attacks in an entire decade = ENTIRE GOVERNMENT IS TERRORISTS INCLUDING THE TEACHERS, POLICEMEN, AND FIREMEN THAT ARE IN THE PARTY.

Oh, this again.

Actually, now that you've typed in caps I can see that your point is valid. You've changed my mind completely.

Your mind is impossible to change because your opinions are illogical. You get shouted at by people a lot because you say incredibly offensive and ignorant things in incredibly cavalier and certain ways and never, never, never actually engage in a factual or intellectual manner with other people on this forum. I'm not going to galbraithe myself into destruction, but know that you're a massive and offensive troll.

Wait, no, on second thought I think I'll keep agreeing with Canada and the EU that Hamas is a terrorist organization.

Lovely. I'll keep on thinking with the organizations that weren't pressured and lobbied by a post election bush into labeling a nations entire democratically elected government as a terrorist organization idiotically. I mean, if the EU had a foreign policy at all I'm sure they would change it and the last time canada could argue with a republican was like 1972.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

Nevermind.

Delete this, please.

Re:In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Medium of Death — GMT

I do despair of the whole 'Israel vs. Palestine' debate. Both sides are as bad as each other in many respects. However, seeing as Israel is clearly the 'superior' power it should be doing more to remedy the situation rather than exacerbate it.

Did anything ever come of those reports (think it may have been courtesy of wikileaks) that revealed that it is Israel, not Palestine, who are the ones holding up the peace process?

Re:In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

Medium of Death wrote:I do despair of the whole 'Israel vs. Palestine' debate.

I think most people do.

The problem is that some people hear "Hamas is a Terrorist Organization" as "Israel has carte blanche to do whatever they want, in my opinion."

Re:In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:I do despair of the whole 'Israel vs. Palestine' debate.

I think most people do.

The problem is that some people hear "Hamas is a Terrorist Organization" as "Israel has carte blanche to do whatever they want, in my opinion."

When you basically dismiss the horrid murder of an italian aid worker it kinda knocks the conversation up a notch.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:Oh man. So you don't care that he was killed, but don't think the innocent should die? I love the cognitive dissonance of the ignorant. And don't worry, even though you edited out the post where you called hamas (and palestinians in general) animals I'll keep it alive and well.

See, now you're either lying or just mistaken.

I never edited any part of my post concerning my opinion of Hamas in fact I stand by it, and never called Palestinians in general animals. Internationally recognized terrorist organizations are low on my list of people to think fondly of.

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ShumaGorath wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:I do despair of the whole 'Israel vs. Palestine' debate.

I think most people do.

The problem is that some people hear "Hamas is a Terrorist Organization" as "Israel has carte blanche to do whatever they want, in my opinion."

When you basically dismiss the horrid murder of an italian aid worker it kinda knocks the conversation up a notch.

I said I hope it serves as a wake-up call to people who commiserate with terrorists. You know, so that it doesn't happen again.

I don't know why that's so upsetting to you.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

I said I hope it serves as a wake-up call to people who commiserate with terrorists.

I don't know why that's so upsetting to you.

Because he was an aid worker working to improve conditions in palestine. Saying that because he dealt with the defacto government there means his case should be a "warning to others who work with terrorists" is insulting. You're saying no one should help these people. This is what I mean by you don't consider your opinions past their face value.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Manchu — GMT

Shuma wrote:I'm not going to galbraithe myself into destruction . . .

Classic.

While I'm here, deep breaths all around please. Walk away from the computer and come back to argue like the gentlemen scholars I know ye are. I know I say this a lot but it's true.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:Because he was an aid worker working to improve conditions in palestine. Saying that because he dealt with the defacto government there means his case should be a "warning to others who work with terrorists" is insulting. You're saying no one should help these people. This is what I mean by you don't consider your opinions past their face value.

Sure I do.

Also, there are ways to improve conditions in Palestine without becoming a political partisan.

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Manchu wrote:
Shuma wrote:I'm not going to galbraithe myself into destruction . . .
Classic.

While I'm here, deep breaths all around please. Walk away from the computer and come back to argue like the gentlemen scholars I know ye are. I know I say this a lot but it's true.

By your word.

_______________

To clarify my position on the general Israeli/Palestinian conflict since this foolishness may have muddied the waters what with the inference that you can't be anti-Hamas without being pro-Israel:

Both sides are guilty of wrongdoing, and both sides should chill the feth out. There now. Two state solution for the win.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Sure I do.

Also, there's ways to improve conditions in Palestine without becoming a political partisan.

Not when you're working inside the country. Thats like saying you can be an aid worker in the U.S. but totally avoid dealing with the U.S. government. The dude lived there. He had no choice in the matter. Hell, Hamas said that the murder was a brutal and inhumane act perpetrated by awful people and that he hurt the very humanity of palestine. They weren't the ones who killed him, they were the ones that run the police stations and who collect the taxes.

If you considered your opinions in even the slightest you would never say that it was a warning to people in the country "dealing with hamas". That makes no sense. You can't just "wish" the plight of the Palestinians to go away from your desk. The aid agencies that work with those people have to deal with hamas because they aren't regime changing military fleets. It's unrealistic to think otherwise.

To clarify my position since this foolishness may have muddied the waters what with the inference that you can't be anti-Hamas without being pro-Israel:

That inference was just your tone. What the issue here is is what you and matty directly said. Something that implies neither of you think about the logistics of things or that you just don't actually think the people there need aid.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

SlaveToDorkness — GMT

Sure it does, it means maybe people will think twice about helping terrorists/terrorist supported governments when there is a danger of the terrorists of said terrorists/terrorist supported governments killing them.

There's gotta be a "Yo dawg.." joke in there somewhere.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:If you considered your opinions in even the slightest you would never say that it was a warning to people. That makes no sense.

As long as the The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades exist as part of Hamas, they will be at least complicit in Terrorism.

ShumaGorath wrote:That inference was just your tone. What the issue here is is what you and matty directly said.

Yes, working with terrorist organizations is inherently dangerous. I would think that was common sense.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Sure it does, it means maybe people will think twice about helping terrorists/terrorist supported governments when there is a danger of the terrorists of said terrorists/terrorist supported governments killing them.

So I'm not taking crazy pills today.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:If you considered your opinions in even the slightest you would never say that it was a warning to people. That makes no sense.

As long as the The Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades exist as part of Hamas, they will be at least complicit in Terrorism.

Cool. So now we're backpedaling? Now their complicit? Was the U.S. government complicit for working with the people who perpetrated the mai lai massacre? Is the CIA a terrorist organization for funding and equipping extremist groups in Iraq and afghanistan? Hell, is china a terrorist government because it legitimatly and commonly commits acts of terrorism against its own people?

I mean, I'm sure this is a special case because the Canadian government said so. But honestly, try to consider things on the periphery of what the EU tells you.

Yes, working with terrorist organizations is inherently dangerous. I would think that was common sense.

Yes, I'm sure working with meaningless war on terror era buzzwords is dangerous. I'll tell that to the oil workers living in saudi arabia the next time they deal with the police who are "terrorists".

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SlaveToDorkness wrote:Sure it does, it means maybe people will think twice about helping terrorists/terrorist supported governments when there is a danger of the terrorists of said terrorists/terrorist supported governments killing them.

There's gotta be a "Yo dawg.." joke in there somewhere.

So when a U.S. aid worker is killed it should be a warning because we were propping up Mubarak? Should we avoid dealing with Pakistan entirely? They complicity support terrorism and are a military ally receiving immense amounts of aid.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:Cool. So now we're backpedaling? Now their complicit?

Nope, not backpedaling.

They're complicit in terrorism, which makes them guilty of being involved with terrorism, which makes them terrorists.

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ShumaGorath wrote:Yes, I'm sure working with meaningless war on terror era buzzwords is dangerous. I'll tell that to the oil workers living in saudi arabia the next time they deal with the police who are "terrorists".

You act as if you think I like the fact that the US is so friendly with Saudi Arabia.

Also, "Terrorist Organization" has a meaning independent of the War on Terror.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Cool. So now we're backpedaling? Now their complicit?

Nope, not backpedaling.

They're complicit in terrorism, which makes them guilty of being involved with terrorism, which makes them terrorists.

Ahh. So the CIA is too. As is the Chinese government. As are the American border minutemen. As is the Egyptian protest group. As is the isreali government. As is the European union.

Glad we sorted this out.

You act as if you think I like the fact that the US is so friendly with Saudi Arabia.

I act as if you refuse to see the world as anything but black/white good/evil. As I've accused you of in the past. Your cognitive dissonance concerning where to draw the line with things like "terrorist entities" is very visible and it tends to fall along religious lines.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Cool. So now we're backpedaling? Now their complicit?

Nope, not backpedaling.

They're complicit in terrorism, which makes them guilty of being involved with terrorism, which makes them terrorists.

Ahh. So the CIA is too. As is the Chinese government. As are the minutement. As is the Egyptian protest group. As is the isreali government. As is the European union.

Glad we sorted this out.

Wait, so you're admitting that Hamas is a Terrorist organization now?

What was all that ranting about back there, then?

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ShumaGorath wrote:I act as if you refuse to see the world as anything but black/white good/evil. As I've accused you of in the past. You're cognitive dissonance concerning where to draw the line with things like "terrorist entities" is very visible and it tends to fall along religious lines.

I'm not Jewish.

Also, the IRA are terrorists and so was Timothy McVeigh. Your argument is invalid.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Cool. So now we're backpedaling? Now their complicit?

Nope, not backpedaling.

They're complicit in terrorism, which makes them guilty of being involved with terrorism, which makes them terrorists.

Ahh. So the CIA is too. As is the Chinese government. As are the minutement. As is the Egyptian protest group. As is the isreali government. As is the European union.

Glad we sorted this out.

Wait, so you're admitting that Hamas is a Terrorist organization now?

What was all that ranting about back there, then?

Oh, I still don't think so. I think they have a militant terrorist wing, but I'm not going to label the de facto controlling government of an entire country as such because I'm willing to use some level of perspective when using the term. I mean, if I did that that would imply every single person in Palestine receiving a government paycheck is a terrorist. I'm not willing to say bridge builders and school teachers are the same as suicide bombers.

I'm just trying to develop a common ground meaning for the term "terrorist" and "terrorism". You want it to be meaninglessly watered down and useless. I'd prefer it have a value.

I'm not Jewish.

Also, the IRA are terrorists and so was Timothy McVeigh. Your argument is invalid.

Are the chinese or Saudi governments terrorist organizations? My argument isn't invalid. You labeled one self styled terorrist group and a confessed and wanton terrorist as terrorists. All you proved was that you can successfully type the word. When you manage to elucidate a functioning definition that separates the government of palestine from the governments in china or burma that makes them somehow specially "terrorist" you'll manage to actually invalidate my argument.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:Are the chinese or Saudi governments terrorist organizations? My argument isn't invalid.

No?

Yes?

Blue?

If you have a wing of your government specifically committed to Terrorism, it's not unreasonable to call your government a Terrorist Organization.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Are the chinese or Saudi governments terrorist organizations? My argument isn't invalid.

No?

Yes?

Blue?

So you don't have an opinion on the matter of what constitutes a terrorist or terrorist organization unless the European union tells you it?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:So you don't have an opinion on the matter of what constitutes a terrorist or terrorist organization unless the European union tells you it?

See above, first of all.

Also, it's not just the European Union.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:So you don't have an opinion on the matter of what constitutes a terrorist or terrorist organization unless the European union tells you it?

See above, first of all.

Also, it's not just the European Union.

Don't equivocate or avoid the question. Do you consider china, Saudi Arabia, Burma, or Pakistan to be led by terrorist organizations? I mean, aside from the fact that it is unreasonable to label non terrorist entities as terrorists when they are affiliated only organizationally since you are labeling people who are likely not terrorists, who do not implicitly support terrorism, and who could very well frown upon its use entirely (note how the wings are not the controlling entities in Hamas), I just want to know if you consider other equivalent organizational ties in other places to be the same? I suspect you'll label specific Muslim dominant countries as being terrorist led, but not other (non muslim) countries. It's been your modus operandi in discussion relating to such issues as global security in the past.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:Don't equivocate or avoid the question. Do you consider china, Saudi Arabia, Burma, or Pakistan to be led by terrorist organizations?

I'll answer with a question:

Are any of those places recognized by other international organizations as Terrorists? You know, like Hamas is?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Don't equivocate or avoid the question. Do you consider china, Saudi Arabia, Burma, or Pakistan to be led by terrorist organizations?

I'll answer with a question:

Are any of those places recognized by other international organizations as Terrorists? You know, like Hamas is?

ShumaGorath wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Are the chinese or Saudi governments terrorist organizations? My argument isn't invalid.

No?

Yes?

Blue?

So you don't have an opinion on the matter of what constitutes a terrorist or terrorist organization unless the European union tells you it?

So your definition of what constitutes a terrorist is purely political/economic?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Don't equivocate or avoid the question. Do you consider china, Saudi Arabia, Burma, or Pakistan to be led by terrorist organizations?

I'll answer with a question:

Are any of those places recognized by other international organizations as Terrorists? You know, like Hamas is?
ShumaGorath wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Are the chinese or Saudi governments terrorist organizations? My argument isn't invalid.

No?

Yes?

Blue?

So you don't have an opinion on the matter of what constitutes a terrorist or terrorist organization unless the European union tells you it?

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:So you don't have an opinion on the matter of what constitutes a terrorist or terrorist organization unless the European union tells you it?

See above, first of all.

Also, it's not just the European Union.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

As I said at the start, you're unwilling to interface with your own opinions in even the most basic of ways and your logic is baseless and circular. The fact that we could go in a full circle like this without you elucidating at all what you think the term actually means pretty directly implies you just take national labels at face value and don't bother yourself with the difficulties of considering them.

Like I said at the start. Anyway, I'm done. I can see a circle after I've run it.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:As I said at the start, you're unwilling to interface with your own opinions in even the most basic of ways and your logic is baseless and circular.

My logic is circular because it's flawless.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Emperors Faithful — GMT

People on this thread are handing out the term 'terrorist' like free candy.

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Sure it does, it means maybe people will think twice about helping terrorists/terrorist supported governments when there is a danger of the terrorists of said terrorists/terrorist supported governments killing them.

If Hamas is the "terrorists/terrorist supported government" that you're talking about how does your arguement make any sense? The activist wasn't killed by Hamas. I'm gonna have to call you out here and ask you to read the article.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and my knowledge on the origins of Hamas are a little shaky (I know they decried 9/11 but before that?), could anyone tell me what they actually did to be labelled a terrorist organization?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

Emperors Faithful wrote:People on this thread are handing out the term 'terrorist' like free candy.

Indeed. Apparently Lichtenstein, Kentucky Fried Chicken and my local Kiwanis Club are also terrorists organizations.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emperors Faithful wrote:If Hamas is the "terrorists/terrorist supported government" that you're talking about how does your arguement make any sense? The activist wasn't killed by Hamas. I'm gonna have to call you out here and ask you to read the article.

I think you're over-complicating it.

The main point is that getting involved with terrorists is a rather bad idea, and even if you support their organization's aims they still might kill you. Distancing oneself from the entire situation is likely to significantly reduce the likelihood of physical harm from any of the parties involved (Palestinian terrorist or Israeli carpet bombing.)

Emperors Faithful wrote:Oh, and my knowledge on the origins of Hamas are a little shaky (I know they decried 9/11 but before that?), could anyone tell me what they actually did to be labelled a terrorist organization?

Department of Homeland Security wrote:10. HAMAS (Islamic Resistance Movement)
Description
Formed in late 1987 as an outgrowth of the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. Various HAMAS elements have used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Loosely structured, with some elements working clandestinely and others working openly through mosques and social service institutions to recruit members, raise money, organize activities, and distribute propaganda. HAMAS's strength is concentrated in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Also has engaged in peaceful political activity, such as running candidates in West Bank Chamber of Commerce elections.
Activities
HAMAS activists, especially those in the Izz ai-Din al-Qassam Brigades, have conducted many attacks - including large-scale suicide bombings - against Israeli civilian and military targets. In the early 1990s, they also targeted suspected Palestinian collaborators and Fatah rivals. HAMAS increased its operational activity during 2001-2002 claiming numerous attacks against Israeli interests. The group has not targeted US interests - although some US citizens have been killed in HAMAS operations - and continues to confine its attacks to Israelis inside Israel and the territories.
Strength
Unknown number of official members; tens of thousands of supporters and sympathizers.

Location/Area of Operation
HAMAS currently limits its terrorist operations to Israeli military and civilian targets in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Israel. The group's leadership is dispersed throughout the Gaza Strip and West Bank, with a few senior leaders residing in Syria, Lebanon, and the Gulf States.
External Aid
Receives some funding from Iran but primarily relies on donations from Palestinian expatriates around the world and private benefactors in moderate Arab states. Some fund raising and propaganda activity take place in Western Europe, North America, and South America (specifically in the Tri-Border Area of Argentina/Brizil/Paraguay).

source

Granted, it's a little old (2004)so it doesn't take into account their current relatively good behavior.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

SlaveToDorkness — GMT

Emperors Faithful wrote:

If Hamas is the "terrorists/terrorist supported government" that you're talking about how does your argument make any sense? The activist wasn't killed by Hamas. I'm gonna have to call you out here and ask you to read the article.

Well my argument is that when Hamas has there own form of Terrorists working against their more moderate ideals, killing people who are associated with them, it may send a signal that associating with any of these crazy fethwads is a bad idea. Which is a good thing.

Watch the language please! ~Manchu

Whenever I hear about some new crazy terrorist group that split off of another (usually because they're more insane than the first) I always think of this:

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Salafism is not sourced from hamas and is foreign to the nation of palestine.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Emperors Faithful — GMT

SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:

If Hamas is the "terrorists/terrorist supported government" that you're talking about how does your argument make any sense? The activist wasn't killed by Hamas. I'm gonna have to call you out here and ask you to read the article.

Well my argument is that when Hamas has there own form of Terrorists working against their more moderate ideals, killing people who are associated with them, it may send a signal that associating with any of these crazy fuckwads is a bad idea. Which is a good thing.

Which doesn't make sense. If the guy had been killed by a terrorist group associated with (rather than opposed by) Hamas then you'd be on to something. As it is, Hamas' reaction is similar to what a legitimate government's response would be. And I think they are in fact a legitimate government.

Whenever I hear about some new crazy terrorist group that split off of another (usually because they're more insane than the first) I always think of this:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Monster: So they're a Palestinian movement that (shock/horror) has attacked Israel?

I mean, does this mean the state of Israel is a terrorist organisation?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

Emperors Faithful wrote:I mean, does this mean the state of Israel is a terrorist organisation?

I'm going to go with no.

I'm looking at a list of Terrorist Organizations and they aren't on it.

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:I mean, does this mean the state of Israel is a terrorist organisation?

I'm going to go with no.

I'm looking at a list of Terrorist Organizations and they aren't on it.

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm

We get it, you're lock step in line with the government. I hear they have some great budget proposals comin' up and since nothing they ever do is wrong, contradictory, or damaging I'm sure you're looking forward to it.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
Emperors Faithful wrote:I mean, does this mean the state of Israel is a terrorist organisation?

I'm going to go with no.

I'm looking at a list of Terrorist Organizations and they aren't on it.

http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/other/des/123085.htm

We get it, you're lock step in line with the government. I hear they have some great budget proposals comin' up and since nothing they ever do is wrong, contradictory, or damaging I'm sure you're looking forward to it.

The assumptions you make are hysterical, friend. I won't say that you make me "lol", but I do smile quite a bit.

I don't trust the government completely, but I consider the State Department to be a somewhat reliable source when it comes to sorting out what a Terrorist is.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Monster: So they're a Palestinian movement that (shock/horror) has attacked Israel?

Disliking Israeli policy does not a terrorist make. Suicide bomb and rocket attacks specifically aimed at civilian targets kind of does.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Sir Pseudonymous — GMT

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Whenever I hear about some new crazy terrorist group that split off of another (usually because they're more insane than the first) I always think of this:

As I recall, Salafism/Wahabism dates back to the 19th century, at least. They're the heretical sect that backs the House of Saud as the rightful rulers of Arabia, and are backed by the Saudi royalty and nobility as a result. It's their (heretical) tenets that are enforced by Saudi religious police, and it's Salafist terrorists who are funded by wealthy Saudis.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

I don't trust the government completely, but I consider the State Department to be a somewhat reliable source when it comes to sorting out what a Terrorist is.

And yet you're not happy when they rub shoulders with pakistan or saudi arabia (two states proven to institutionalize support of terrorism). Yet another confliction sighted! Glad they're so trustworthy yet apparently not very trustworthy.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:
I don't trust the government completely, but I consider the State Department to be a somewhat reliable source when it comes to sorting out what a Terrorist is.

And yet you're not happy when they rub shoulders with pakistan or saudi arabia (two states proven to institutionalize support of terrorism). Yet another confliction sighted! Glad they're so trustworthy yet apparently not very trustworthy.

The world is a conflicted place.

Surely someone with such an knowledgeable and nuanced worldview wouldn't need that explained to them. I can't think that they know what a terrorist is and not care for every decision then make? Where is that written?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

I can't think that they know what a terrorist is and not care for every decision then make? Where is that written?

Well it just makes it seem like you're exercising incredibly bad judgement if you're fully aware that what they do and do not teem a terrorist organization has no framework and is often an ill considered outpouring of party politics or the request on an economic ally state rather then a true expression of U.S. security concerns and yet you still defer to them when asked if something is terroristy to the exclusion of giving it actual thought.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:Well it just makes it seem like you're exercising incredibly bad judgement if you're fully aware that what they do and do not teem a terrorist organization has no framework and is often an ill considered outpouring of party politics or the request on an economic ally state rather then a true expression of U.S. security concerns

I think that the argument could be made that the two are interrelated.

ShumaGorath wrote:... and yet you still defer to them when asked if something is terroristy to the exclusion of giving it actual thought.

Attacking sources really doesn't make your point, Shuma.

Do you have something other than your own opinion to support your argument?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:Well it just makes it seem like you're exercising incredibly bad judgement if you're fully aware that what they do and do not teem a terrorist organization has no framework and is often an ill considered outpouring of party politics or the request on an economic ally state rather then a true expression of U.S. security concerns

I think that the argument could be made that the two are interrelated.

ShumaGorath wrote:... and yet you still defer to them when asked if something is terroristy to the exclusion of giving it actual thought.

Attacking sources really doesn't make your point, Shuma.

Do you have something other than your own opinion to support your argument?

Logical theory? Though as we've previously covered (and the reason I quit the thread before (why do I keep coming back (BRACKETS!))) you don't seem to use rational logic when forming or at the very least "debating" your opinions. I mean, we haven't really covered anything that needs to be sourced. You haven't actually objected to any facts I have stated, or even asked for any of them to be sourced. What do you want me to to do suport my arguments other then using common rational logic? Puppet tricks?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:What do you want me to to do suport my arguments other then using common rational logic? Puppet tricks?

I cited a source to support an argument. You attack the source without offering anything other than your opinion.

Puppet tricks would probably be an improvement.

Not this puppet though. He frightens me.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:Logical theory? Though as we've previously covered (and the reason I quit the thread before (why do I keep coming back (BRACKETS!)))

Because you missed me.

It's okay. I'm pretty irresistible.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

I cited a source to support an argument. You attack the source without offering anything other than your opinion.

Puppet tricks would probably be an improvement.

You cited a source that we were all aware of. It didn't support your argument as I don't believe the source of your assertion that the U.S. government views Hamas as a terrorist organization is in dispute. In fact I myself stated early in this thread that it was via early bush era politics. Hell, the election of Hamas is why bush dropped rhetoric about spreading democracy and freedom in the middle east. He suddenly didn't like democracy so much when he didn't like who was elected.

If no one is arguing your source material or claiming it is wrong then posting it doesn't support your point. It's incidental. Supporting your point would involve breaking it down and explaining the logic behind it in this instance since that is what is being called into question.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:You cited a source that we were all aware of.

If you're well aware that Hamas is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization and Israel isn't, why do you spend so much time typing the opposite?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:You cited a source that we were all aware of.

If you're well aware that Hamas is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization and Israel isn't, why do you spend so much time typing the opposite?

Because I think it's bs. I don't just accept what the state department says at face value because it's an organization composed primarily of people who are quite fallible. The same government that labeled them as a terrorist government is the one that attacked Sadaam for having WMDs and Al Queda ties. Both lies. It's quite clear just how political and ignorant the state department can be. How easily mislead.

But then you already knew the exact reason and you're just being an obtuse troll. I already told you I'm not gonna blame the victim and explode. You're just making yourself look bad.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:
Monster Rain wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:You cited a source that we were all aware of.

If you're well aware that Hamas is internationally recognized as a terrorist organization and Israel isn't, why do you spend so much time typing the opposite?

Because I think it's bs. I don't just accept what the state department says at face value because it's an organization composed primarily of people who are quite fallible. The same government that labeled them as a terrorist government is the one that attacked Sadaam for having WMDs and Al Queda ties. Both lies. It's quite clear just how political and ignorant the state department can be. How easily mislead.

Ah, more opinion based conspiracy theories. Alas, I'm out of tinfoil.

ShumaGorath wrote:But then you already knew the exact reason and you're just being an obtuse troll. I already told you I'm not gonna blame the victim and explode. You're just making yourself look bad.

Again with the name calling and insults.

Who are you really mad at, friend?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Ah, more opinion based conspiracy theories. Alas, I'm out of tinfoil.

It's clear you don't actually follow the news much. Here are the first two responses I found on google.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/27/politics/27diplo.html
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/06/cheney-mistake-for-bush-admin-to-push-for-2006-palestinian-elections.html

Again with the name calling and insults.

Who are you really mad at, friend?

You. Anyway, the circle of trolling is coming back around on itself. You're not going to self destruct because you know how to troll via argumentative fallacies, shifting sands, and equivocation. I'm not going to catch you in anything because you aren't saying anything concrete or meaningful, so I'm just gonna bow out before I end up getting banned for accidentally saying something mean in the thread where a mod has said it's excellent that someone was hung for being a charity worker.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:
Ah, more opinion based conspiracy theories. Alas, I'm out of tinfoil.

It's clear you don't actually follow the news much. Here are the first two responses I found on google.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/27/politics/27diplo.html
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2010/06/cheney-mistake-for-bush-admin-to-push-for-2006-palestinian-elections.html

I'm not sure what point it is you're supporting here.

I'm aware of those stories. I don't see how they impugn the State Department's identification of terrorist organizations. I'm sure that with your Google skills you could find someone other than them listing Hamas as a terrorist organization, though. Ah yes, I seem to recall having mentioned a few places earlier in the thread now that I mention it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:You. Anyway, the circle of trolling is coming back around on itself. You're not going to self destruct because you know how to troll via argumentative fallacies, shifting sands, and equivocation.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

Have a pleasant evening.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

mattyrm — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:
If this man was such an ardent supporter of them, then why should I be concerned he got rubbed out?

Theoretically because you're a human being and not some sort of bloodthirsty anti Arab English imperialist who loves his country and hates reading THE ACTUAL ARTICLE ITSELF. When you say gak like that it reminds me why I don't actually like talking to ex military people. It robs them of their ability to think with compassion when its something they were trained to think wasn't human.

Yeah Shuma, the issue I have mate is that while I accept that the Isreali, Palestine comflict is incredibly complicated, I don't really see how someone as vocally and obviously Pro Palestine as you (look how pissed off you have been all thread) cannot see that your essentially saying the exact same things as someone who is incredibly Pro Isreal!

I mean, seriously, there are people all over the world who love the Isrealis, Im not one of them, I just like them more than the Palestinians.

I quite clearly said Im not ok with torture either, I hate it when chickenhawks on US TV/Radio talk about it, because they have no idea what they are talking about, Ive had a passive Iraqi prisoner sat right in front of me, looking at me with fear in his eyes, and I think that even if I had to, putting a round in his face while he sits and looks right at me, that would be hard to do, let alone tying the bloke up and pulling his teeth with a pair of pliers. (shooting people during a firefight is pretty easy though!). I really dont think torture is acceptable, and I find it abhorent when people do it, I dont even think waterboarding is acceptable, thats my stance on the issue and it always will be, however Im not really bothered when a massively pro Hamas fella gets wasted.

Seriously, whats so fethed up about that!? Judging by your zeal for the last three pages, doesnt that mean that you would pretty much feel the exact same way?! Sure you would.. look lets do a roleplay, ill be you for a bit.

A dedicated member of the Zionist movement, who travels extensively promoting the Isreali occupation and its aggressive military actions is tortured and killed. Whats your reaction Shuma?

Shuma Gorath "Gee whiz dudes, Torture is like, totally despicable man, but im not that bothered to be honest, gosh darn those cotton picking Israelis"

See! Were the same me and you bro!

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Yeah Shuma, the issue I have mate is that while I accept that the Isreali, Palestine comflict is incredibly complicated, I don't really see how someone as vocally and obviously Pro Palestine as you (look how pissed off you have been all thread) cannot see that your essentially saying the exact same things as someone who is incredibly Pro Isreal!

Oddly enough I dislike Palestine and would prefer it not exist. It's a lose coalition of tribes that have caused issues for a thousand years. I don't like the old world or the old ways.

What I get mad about is monster rains trolling (honestly, i've been angry at the forum for its double standard on trolling for a week) and the ease with which people on this forum dismiss deaths when they are in that region as granted.

I mean, seriously, there are people all over the world who love the Isrealis, Im not one of them, I just like them more than the Palestinians.

Both groups have proven they don't deserve to have a country.

I quite clearly said Im not ok with torture either, I hate it when chickenhawks on US TV/Radio talk about it, because they have no idea what they are talking about, Ive had a passive Iraqi prisoner sat right in front of me, looking at me with fear in his eyes, and I think that even if I had to, putting a round in his face while he sits and looks right at me, that would be hard to do, let alone tying the bloke up and pulling his teeth with a pair of pliers. (shooting people during a firefight is pretty easy though!). I really dont think torture is acceptable, and I find it abhorent when people do it, I dont even think waterboarding is acceptable, thats my stance on the issue and it always will be, however Im not really bothered when a massively pro Hamas fella gets wasted.

You probably should be for the reasons I outlined before monster rain proved he's not here to discuss anything. He supported palestinians. Hamas was the authority he went through because he had too. It was their government. He wasn't a terrorist or terrorist supporter. So you should probably care.

Seriously, whats so fethed up about that!? Judging by your zeal for the last three pages, doesnt that mean that you would pretty much feel the exact same way?! Sure you would.. look lets do a roleplay, ill be you for a bit.

A dedicated member of the Zionist movement, who travels extensively promoting the Isreali occupation and its aggressive military actions is tortured and killed. Whats your reaction Shuma?

Shuma Gorath "Gee whiz dudes, Torture is like, totally despicable man, but im not that bothered to be honest, gosh darn those cotton picking Israelis"

I think you've misinterpreted my anger. I dislike both of those fethed up hellholes. I just dislike Rains cognitive dissonance and your random and contradictory hate as well.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

mattyrm — GMT

Its not really hate though is it? Its er... nonchalant ambivalence!

Saying "I dont really care" isnt hate surely? I dont "hate" Palestinians, they get raised by their parents with hatred, they watch Mickey "hate" Mouse and they drink hate milk, thats what motivates a man to wire himself up, fill his pockets with rat poison and blow himself up on a bus.

I just dont really care very much when they get wasted. Hardly hate is it?! I dont hate AQ either, its not their fault they are on the other team, its more due to luck and location of birth and what your parents thought as to wether or not you end up on Osamas team.

But I mean, I dont really care if a random bloke down the street I dont know pops his clogs, so why should I care what both sides in this conflict or their supporters get up to?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Mannahnin — GMT

Matty, we've established in a thread about a celebrity's death that you express your opinion about the deaths of strangers a bit differently than most of us do. It would help if you accounted for that and remembered that thread, and how you came off like a callous jerk, even though you didn't mean to, because of your careless phrasing.

Bear in mind, as well, that no one in this thread has even asked you to feel sympathy for a Palestinian dying. We're talking about an Italian dude who felt strongly enough about helping poor, needy, f'd over people that he went to Palestine to try to help. And he was murdered, brutally. That's a tragedy. And being publicly callous about it is kind of offensive, honestly.

I'm not as hot and bothered as Shuma, but I agree with most of what he's written in here.

I'm no fan of Hamas. I occasionally find myself in the position of almost-sort-of defending them just because the dialogue in this country seems overwhelmingly slanted in favor of Israel's side, which seems highly unjust when both sides have been terrible, and Israel happens to have a lot more Palestinian blood on its hands than vice-versa. It's kind of understandable, though, given our country's political support of and close alliance with Israel. We never like facing it or owning up to our own complicity when the people we're supporting aren't actually very nice. Whether it's Israel, the Saudis, Mubarek, Saddam Hussein, Manual Noriega, The Shah of Iran, etc. etc.

Hamas is designated as a "terrorist organization" mostly for political reasons, and because they're connected to terrorists. Some guilt by association.

Desperate people resort to terrorism, and it's considered progress when they/their organizations reduce (and hopefully eventually eliminate) their terrorist activity and participate in peaceful governmental activities. We need to encourage that. If Britain had refused to talk to Sinn Fein or work with them, the peace process in Ireland would have permanently stalled.

Monster Rain, if a charity worker were volunteering in Ireland and happened to be operating in cooperation with Sinn Fein for some reason, then was murdered by Protestant terrorists from Northern Ireland, would you consider it the aid worker's fault for having worked with the political wing of the IRA?

One of the other clear misunderstandings people have demonstrated in this thread is that thinking Hamas, or anyone allied with or friendly to Hamas, were the ones who killed this poor guy. They weren't. It was a group of terrorists supportive of and financed by the Saudis. Who are our allies.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

mattyrm — GMT

Well thats a good point Manna, we know how many plaggy paddys with an extremely poor and generally idiotic understanding of history of the troubles in the USA feel about the IRA.

Ted "send them all back to England" Kennedy for one!

Anyway, as I said, I think you guys have me all wrong.. I dont really like Isreal (Albatross has lectured me about the King David Hotel bombing for one!) and I dont really hate Palestine. I just dont really find death and war heart wrenching if it doesnt involve people I actually know, and I dont care what either side does as long as they dont import it to Yorkshire.

I merely have the somewhat simplistic idea that the more extremist Muslims the Isrealis frag, the less there will be running around to blow up my British and American friends.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Mannahnin — GMT

I understand that, Matty. But it still comes off as callous whenever people are talking about a death, and you waltz in casually and say "don't bother me none." It comes off like you trying to be inhumane and demean the memory of the dead.

And anyway, who says this Italian dude was an extremist Muslim?

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:What I get mad about is monster rains trolling (honestly, i've been angry at the forum for its double standard on trolling for a week) and the ease with which people on this forum dismiss deaths when they are in that region as granted.

No, you're mad at Frazzled and since you can't flame him you're taking it out on me. Also, if anyone here is on the receiving end of lax forum rule enforcement right now it's me. The difference is I'm not really all that bothered by it.

Mannahnin wrote:Monster Rain, if a charity worker were volunteering in Ireland and happened to be operating in cooperation with Sinn Fein for some reason, then was murdered by Protestant terrorists from Northern Ireland, would you consider it the aid worker's fault for having worked with the political wing of the IRA?

I don't consider it to be anyone's fault that they got killed. I'm saying that working in conjunction with Terrorist Organizations is inherently dangerous.

Mannahnin wrote:One of the other clear misunderstanding, s people have demonstrated in this thread is that thinking Hamas, or anyone allied with or friendly to Hamas, were the ones who killed this poor guy. They weren't. It was a group of terrorists supportive of and financed by the Saudis. Who are our allies.

Yes, and I'm not crazy about Saudi Arabia either.

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Mannahnin wrote:Bear in mind, as well, that no one in this thread has even asked you to feel sympathy for a Palestinian dying. We're talking about an Italian dude who felt strongly enough about helping poor, needy, f'd over people that he went to Palestine to try to help. And he was murdered, brutally. That's a tragedy. And being publicly callous about it is kind of offensive, honestly.

If I may wax philosophical here for a moment:

Is it really callous? The amount of people that die on this planet every day is pretty staggering. It's impossible for me to feel personally affected by every single one of them, regardless of the manner in which they passed. I think that saying something doesn't bother you doesn't necessarily mean that you're an unfeeling monster; I think you can acknowledge something as being negative without being emotionally affected by it.

That was how I interpreted mattyrm's original statement, anyway. That's why I agreed with him. I just used shorthand.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

dogma — GMT

mattyrm wrote:Im not really seeing how Frazzled comment was in "extremely" poor taste? I mean, yeah, torturing people like that is horrific, Im always concerned about needless torture, but a bit of death doesnt really bother me, how innocent was he if he was an activitst for Hamas? An internationally recognised terrorist orginisation?

The Norwegians, Russians, Chinese, Swiss, Turks, and Swedes don't recognize them as a terrorist group, and Australia only recognizes the military arm as such Additionally, France and Germany have long debated whether or not to include the political wing as part of the terrorist organization, with multiple court rulings running up to the blanket declaration made by the EU; so their position is somewhat unclear once you delve beneath the legal code.

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Monster Rain wrote:
Medium of Death wrote:I do despair of the whole 'Israel vs. Palestine' debate.

I think most people do.

The problem is that some people hear "Hamas is a Terrorist Organization" as "Israel has carte blanche to do whatever they want, in my opinion."

I think the debate is hilarious. I remember going to a Council panel discussion on Israel and Palestine, and when it came around to question time the degree of enmity people felt towards each other was palpable.

In particular I remember talking to a guy during the post-conference cocktail hour and we got onto the subject of why we don't see more stories from the Palestinian perspective. Thinking this was a reasonable person, I suggested that it was because there is no, widely-read, Palestinian news source, and there is minimal broadband access in the OT (meaning that amateur journalism is difficult to really get off the ground). His only response was "Well, that's not Israel's fault. You have no right to blame Israel for the condition of the Palestinian people!"

The degree of willful distortion that goes on when discussing this topic is absolutely spectacular.

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Mannahnin wrote:
One of the other clear misunderstandings people have demonstrated in this thread is that thinking Hamas, or anyone allied with or friendly to Hamas, were the ones who killed this poor guy. They weren't. It was a group of terrorists supportive of and financed by the Saudis. Who are our allies.

Well, they were financed by Saudis, but not the Saudis. What people often forget is that Saudi Arabia is basically a feudal kingdom, and we're effectively aligned with the king and his close allies. The rest of the people that are party to the wealth of the Saud family basically do whatever they want (its how the Sauds maintain power).

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

dogma wrote:I think the debate is hilarious. I remember going to a Council panel discussion on Israel and Palestine, and when it came around to question time the degree of enmity people felt towards each other was palpable.

In particular I remember talking to a guy during the post-conference cocktail hour and we got onto the subject of why we don't see more stories from the Palestinian perspective. Thinking this was a reasonable person, I suggested that it was because there is no, widely-read, Palestinian news source, and there is minimal broadband access in the OT (meaning that amateur journalism is difficult to really get off the ground). His only response was "Well, that's not Israel's fault. You have no right to blame Israel for the condition of the Palestinian people!"

The degree of willful distortion that goes on when discussing this topic is absolutely spectacular.

That's really funny.

There's no room for nuanced opinions, that's for sure.

We're at war, people. Pick a side.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

No, you're mad at Frazzled and since you can't flame him you're taking it out on me. Also, if anyone here is on the receiving end of lax forum rule enforcement right now it's me. The difference is I'm not really all that bothered by it.

You posted intentionally circular equivocations for two pages straight without ever answering any of my questions or giving me a straight answer in any way at all. You've admitted to doing the same to Galbraithe in PMs with me. You troll people like that. It's your thing. Its how you justify the things that you say without having to explain yourself, and we both know you do it consciously. The thing is, what you do is very visible, so don't try and put on an innocent face now that other people are awake.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:
No, you're mad at Frazzled and since you can't flame him you're taking it out on me. Also, if anyone here is on the receiving end of lax forum rule enforcement right now it's me. The difference is I'm not really all that bothered by it.

You posted intentionally circular equivocations for two pages straight without ever answering any of my questions or giving me a straight answer in any way at all.

I answered your questions. You just didn't like the answers I gave.

ShumaGorath wrote:You've admitted to doing the same to Galbraithe in PMs with me.

All I did in PMs was link you to the thread when you asked what "Blame the Victim" was all about.

You said I trolled him in that thread, I explained that there was a lot of history leading up to that thread. Also, I think you might note that I wasn't the only person that had problems with that kid.

Transcript of the PM conversation with Shuma. Note that I didn't post off topic in the thread that he asked for it, but took it to PM.

Monster Rain wrote:http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/319627.page

Enjoy.

ShumaGorath wrote:You trolled that guy a little hard.

Monster Rain wrote:If you went back through G-Baby's posting history with... well... everyone you'd see why people were a bit short-tempered with him.

Yeah, I admit I was short-tempered with a known fool. I'm not terribly ashamed of that.

ShumaGorath wrote:You troll people like that. It's your thing. Its how you justify the things that you say without having to explain yourself, and we both know you do it consciously.

I'm not sure what you mean. I have explained myself... oh...in the same post that you just quoted. Look a bit further down.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

I answered your questions. You just didn't like the answers I gave.

Because you answered them with questions, (illogical) appeals to authority, or simply gave me a totally unrelated answer. So you're right. I didn't like your responses.

You said I trolled him in that thread, I explained that there was a lot of history leading up to that thread. Also, I think you might note that I wasn't the only person that had problems with that kid.

When I said you were trolling him kinda hard you said that others had been worse, thats pretty tacit admittance. Within that thread you had other non victim blaming posters noting that you should lay off as well. That said, everyone had a problem with him, I was just noting a pattern of behavior.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:
I answered your questions. You just didn't like the answers I gave.

Because you answered them with questions, (illogical) appeals to authority, or simply gave me a totally unrelated answer. So you're right. I didn't like your responses.

I don't care if you like them. If you don't like talking to me, feel free not to.

ShumaGorath wrote:When I said you were trolling him kinda hard you said that others had been worse, thats pretty tacit admittance. Within that thread you had other non victim blaming posters noting that you should lay off as well.

You've only seeing what you want to see in that thread.

Also, there were people who were worse to him than I was. Now who's equivocating?

I stand by my opinion that you're really mad at something else but are lashing out at me because I'm a target of convenience. Nothing you say will change my mind.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

I don't care if you like them. If you don't like talking to me, feel free not to.

I wish I had that kind of personality :( .

You've only seeing what you want to see in that thread.

Also, there were people who were worse to him than I was. Now who's equivocating?

You're either confused or didn't use equivocating right. I was just positing that your method of posting/trolling has previous precedence and that you tacitly admitted to it on one instance with me.

The only people that have accused me of this are you and that other guy.

I'd think hard about that.

Well, you know. Me, CheeseElemental, Rubiksnoob, and delvhar by reading the last 3 pages of that thread. Then again you look like a saint next to Gally regardless. I'm not attempting to argue that he wasn't a nutty timebomb.

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I stand by my opinion that you're really mad at something else but are lashing out at me because I'm a target of convenience. Nothing you say will change my mind.

Your mind is impossible to change because your opinions are illogical. You get shouted at by people a lot because you say incredibly offensive and ignorant things in incredibly cavalier and certain ways and never, never, never actually engage in a factual or intellectual manner with other people on this forum.

And we've come full circle once again. It's like I'm a damn prophet.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Monster Rain — GMT

ShumaGorath wrote:[Well, you know. Me, CheeseElemental, Rubiksnoob, and delvhar by reading the last 3 pages of that thread. Then again you look like a saint next to Gally regardless. I'm not attempting to argue that he wasn't a nutty timebomb.

Again, you're not quite sure what you're talking about and appealing to... well... one of those guys isn't exactly a paragon of reason and class.

I stand by my opinion that you're really mad at something else but are lashing out at me because I'm a target of convenience. Nothing you say will change my mind.

Your mind is impossible to change because your opinions are illogical. You get shouted at by people a lot because you say incredibly offensive and ignorant things in incredibly cavalier and certain ways and never, never, never actually engage in a factual or intellectual manner with other people on this forum.

And we've come full circle once again. It's like I'm a damn prophet.

If you're wrong, why would we come to a different answer than when I told you that you're wrong in the first place?

~~Also, you were equivocating with the word "trolling" but then you knew that. I didn't admit to anything "tacitly" I said I was short-tempered with him. Verbatim.~~ Ah hell. Shuma got me arguing semantics again. We're done with that.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

ShumaGorath — GMT

Again, you're not quite sure what you're talking about.

It's kinda hard to interperet:

Your logic here is deeply flawed.

Anyone who responds to a troll that violently is just being an idiot. Put him on ignore, and you don't have to deal with his bs. Anyone else who has that problem should do the same. I had a problem with a user here claiming to be a Christian being an immoral fethwit, so I put him on ignore and everything's cool.

Problem solved. Don't go comparing this to Nazi Germany.

In any way other then that they believe you were trolling him and that he hugely overreacted.

If you're wrong, why would we come to a different answer than when I told you that you're wrong in the first place?

Anyway, I'm unsubscribing from this pointlessness.

Also, you were equivocating with the word "trolling" but then you knew that.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

Emperors Faithful — GMT

Mannahnin wrote:Matty, we've established in a thread about a celebrity's death that you express your opinion about the deaths of strangers a bit differently than most of us do. It would help if you accounted for that and remembered that thread, and how you came off like a callous jerk, even though you didn't mean to, because of your careless phrasing.

Bear in mind, as well, that no one in this thread has even asked you to feel sympathy for a Palestinian dying. We're talking about an Italian dude who felt strongly enough about helping poor, needy, f'd over people that he went to Palestine to try to help. And he was murdered, brutally. That's a tragedy. And being publicly callous about it is kind of offensive, honestly.

I'm not as hot and bothered as Shuma, but I agree with most of what he's written in here.

I'm no fan of Hamas. I occasionally find myself in the position of almost-sort-of defending them just because the dialogue in this country seems overwhelmingly slanted in favor of Israel's side, which seems highly unjust when both sides have been terrible, and Israel happens to have a lot more Palestinian blood on its hands than vice-versa. It's kind of understandable, though, given our country's political support of and close alliance with Israel. We never like facing it or owning up to our own complicity when the people we're supporting aren't actually very nice. Whether it's Israel, the Saudis, Mubarek, Saddam Hussein, Manual Noriega, The Shah of Iran, etc. etc.

Hamas is designated as a "terrorist organization" mostly for political reasons, and because they're connected to terrorists. Some guilt by association.

Desperate people resort to terrorism, and it's considered progress when they/their organizations reduce (and hopefully eventually eliminate) their terrorist activity and participate in peaceful governmental activities. We need to encourage that. If Britain had refused to talk to Sinn Fein or work with them, the peace process in Ireland would have permanently stalled.

Monster Rain, if a charity worker were volunteering in Ireland and happened to be operating in cooperation with Sinn Fein for some reason, then was murdered by Protestant terrorists from Northern Ireland, would you consider it the aid worker's fault for having worked with the political wing of the IRA?

One of the other clear misunderstandings people have demonstrated in this thread is that thinking Hamas, or anyone allied with or friendly to Hamas, were the ones who killed this poor guy. They weren't. It was a group of terrorists supportive of and financed by the Saudis. Who are our allies.

Nice post.

And dogma already raised the point that it's technically not the actual Saudi Government that's funding these guys, but powerful members of it.

@Monster: Honestly, it doesn't make sense to label an entire government a terrorist organization. I'd understand the Military Wing (which Australia holds to be a terrorist organizaion), but this Italian guy wasn't working in conjunction with the military, he was in contact with a legitimately elected government (so far as I can tell).

And going by your definition of terrorism (wilfully attacking civilian targets) that would make the state of Israel (or at least the military arm) a terrorist organization as well.

But this thread isn't really about Pro-Isreal or Pro-Palestine, it's about an aid worker who was brutally killed by a terrorist organization while trying to help people. Hamas responded legitimately to this deplorable act.

In incredible Irony, italian pro gaza/hamas activist killed by even more extreme muslim sect

dogma — GMT

Emperors Faithful wrote:
And dogma already raised the point that it's technically not the actual Saudi Government that's funding these guys, but powerful members of it.

Its a bit more complicated than that, but yeah.

To elaborate, not all members of the Saud family are involved in government; much to the chagrin of those who are not. However, all members of the Saud family have access to at least some part of the Saud family's wealth. So you get a situation where politically connected, though not necessarily politically relevant, people are able to draw from "state" coffers in order to fund groups that the state might not have a direct interest in being connected to. All of this, of course, is further exacerbated by the internecine struggles between the various Sauds vying for power within the familial hierarchy. Oh, and you also can't forget the wealthy retainers of the Saud family that aren't actually considered "royalty", but still have access to a great deal of wealth.

Really its just one big fascinating mess.