winnertakesall wrote:Russ! DRINK, FIGHT, EAT, DRINK, FIGHT, WIN!

Little lord Fauntleroy wrote:

winnertakesall wrote:Russ! DRINK, FIGHT, EAT, DRINK, FIGHT, WIN!

This is a surprisingly convincing argument.

Cybronx wrote:I wouldn't be a proper unbiased Ultrasmurf player if I didn't vote for Guilliman.

Who became Lord Commander of the Imperium? Who defeated Alpharius? Who wrote the Codex Astartes?

And what did Dorn do? He got himself stuck in a cage, only to be released by the Ultramarines.

ghargatuloth wrote:He was conviently on the other side of the galaxy, duh.

andain841 wrote:Yup Dorn helped to save Terra, but I'm pretty sure that the Khan, Sanguinius, and the Emperor himself helped some too. All Guilliman did was defeat the 2nd largest legion after they launched a surprise attack on Ultramar. After that he only used his legion to keep the Imperium from disintigrating in the aftermath of the Heresy while also maintaining overall command of the Imperium's armed forces. But I'm sure that Dorn would have been able to pull that off somehow too right? All of Dorn's work would have counted for nothing if Guilliman hadn't stepped in and held the Imperium together. Papa Smurf also managed to pull Dorn's fat out of the fire at the Iron Cage and drive Peturabo and his legion into the Eye of Terror into the bargain. He could have easily left Dorn to die but he didn't.

Guilliman also wrote that horrific Codex Astartes that, for ten thousand years, has managed to prevent another civil war by fixing the problems inherent in the Astartes Legions. His legion was the largest and most powerful which means that he had, by a wide margin, the most to lose by splitting the legions into chapters. Funny that he did it anyway in spite of this. He could have easily taken over the Imperium without any difficulty and he didn't. In fact, he gave it back to the civilians. Fighting at the Siege of Terra somehow counts for more than all of this? Really? You guys must have a really low view of Corax, Vulkan, and Ferrus Manus then right? Their contribution to the Heresy consisted of being slaughtered at Istvaan. Or what about Johnson and the Dark Angels who managed to fight their own private war and contribute nothing at all? How about Russ? He's a popular guy right? Is defeating the Thousand Sons, and not fighting during the siege, somehow more important than defeating the Word Bearers? Someone help me out here and shed some light on this. Or is this just another case of irrational Ultramarine/Guilliman hate?

One more thing:
Ultramar is on the other side of the galaxy from Terra. There is nothing convenient about the Ultramarines not being near Terra when bad things happen. Would it be fair to complain about the Space Wolves conveniently being on the other side of the galaxy when Hive Fleet Behemoth came knocking? Of course it wouldn't because Fenris is on the other side of the galaxy from Ultramar.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Congrats if you made it through that whole rant. I don't mean to sound confrontational but the Ultramarine/Guilliman hate seems to border on the fanatical and I really am curious to know where it comes from.

Cybronx wrote:

andain841 wrote:Yup Dorn helped to save Terra, but I'm pretty sure that the Khan, Sanguinius, and the Emperor himself helped some too. All Guilliman did was defeat the 2nd largest legion after they launched a surprise attack on Ultramar. After that he only used his legion to keep the Imperium from disintigrating in the aftermath of the Heresy while also maintaining overall command of the Imperium's armed forces. But I'm sure that Dorn would have been able to pull that off somehow too right? All of Dorn's work would have counted for nothing if Guilliman hadn't stepped in and held the Imperium together. Papa Smurf also managed to pull Dorn's fat out of the fire at the Iron Cage and drive Peturabo and his legion into the Eye of Terror into the bargain. He could have easily left Dorn to die but he didn't.

Guilliman also wrote that horrific Codex Astartes that, for ten thousand years, has managed to prevent another civil war by fixing the problems inherent in the Astartes Legions. His legion was the largest and most powerful which means that he had, by a wide margin, the most to lose by splitting the legions into chapters. Funny that he did it anyway in spite of this. He could have easily taken over the Imperium without any difficulty and he didn't. In fact, he gave it back to the civilians. Fighting at the Siege of Terra somehow counts for more than all of this? Really? You guys must have a really low view of Corax, Vulkan, and Ferrus Manus then right? Their contribution to the Heresy consisted of being slaughtered at Istvaan. Or what about Johnson and the Dark Angels who managed to fight their own private war and contribute nothing at all? How about Russ? He's a popular guy right? Is defeating the Thousand Sons, and not fighting during the siege, somehow more important than defeating the Word Bearers? Someone help me out here and shed some light on this. Or is this just another case of irrational Ultramarine/Guilliman hate?

One more thing:
Ultramar is on the other side of the galaxy from Terra. There is nothing convenient about the Ultramarines not being near Terra when bad things happen. Would it be fair to complain about the Space Wolves conveniently being on the other side of the galaxy when Hive Fleet Behemoth came knocking? Of course it wouldn't because Fenris is on the other side of the galaxy from Ultramar.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Congrats if you made it through that whole rant. I don't mean to sound confrontational but the Ultramarine/Guilliman hate seems to border on the fanatical and I really am curious to know where it comes from.

Someone give this man a medal.

I would like to add, too, that Horus sent three of the most loyal Primarchs on far-off missions during his heresy. They included Sanguinius, Lion El'Jonson, and Roboute Guilliman. But Dorn? No dice.

Pilau Rice wrote:Now, it's Rogal Dorn, he's awesome. He is a no nonsense character who is able to have a mess about. He is strong and implacable but is all to human.

Besides, we all know that Sanguinius is far cooler anyway so this point is mute..

*ducks*

andain841 wrote:

Besides, we all know that Sanguinius is far cooler anyway so this point is mute..

*ducks*

Sanguinius is awesome. Who doesn't like a noble sacrifice in the face of a really evil bad guy? Sanguinius certainly gets my vote for most heroic primarch. You certainly wouldn't have seen any such heroics from Guilliman, Jonson, or Dorn. Russ may give Sanguinius a run for his money in the heroics department though.

Cybronx wrote:
I would like to add, too, that Horus sent three of the most loyal Primarchs on far-off missions during his heresy. They included Sanguinius, Lion El'Jonson, and Roboute Guilliman. But Dorn? No dice.

andain841 wrote:Yup Dorn helped to save Terra, but I'm pretty sure that the Khan, Sanguinius, and the Emperor himself helped some too. All Guilliman did was defeat the 2nd largest legion after they launched a surprise attack on Ultramar. After that he only used his legion to keep the Imperium from disintigrating in the aftermath of the Heresy while also maintaining overall command of the Imperium's armed forces. But I'm sure that Dorn would have been able to pull that off somehow too right? All of Dorn's work would have counted for nothing if Guilliman hadn't stepped in and held the Imperium together. Papa Smurf also managed to pull Dorn's fat out of the fire at the Iron Cage and drive Peturabo and his legion into the Eye of Terror into the bargain. He could have easily left Dorn to die but he didn't.

Guilliman also wrote that horrific Codex Astartes that, for ten thousand years, has managed to prevent another civil war by fixing the problems inherent in the Astartes Legions. His legion was the largest and most powerful which means that he had, by a wide margin, the most to lose by splitting the legions into chapters. Funny that he did it anyway in spite of this. He could have easily taken over the Imperium without any difficulty and he didn't. In fact, he gave it back to the civilians. Fighting at the Siege of Terra somehow counts for more than all of this? Really? You guys must have a really low view of Corax, Vulkan, and Ferrus Manus then right? Their contribution to the Heresy consisted of being slaughtered at Istvaan. Or what about Johnson and the Dark Angels who managed to fight their own private war and contribute nothing at all? How about Russ? He's a popular guy right? Is defeating the Thousand Sons, and not fighting during the siege, somehow more important than defeating the Word Bearers? Someone help me out here and shed some light on this. Or is this just another case of irrational Ultramarine/Guilliman hate?

One more thing:
Ultramar is on the other side of the galaxy from Terra. There is nothing convenient about the Ultramarines not being near Terra when bad things happen. Would it be fair to complain about the Space Wolves conveniently being on the other side of the galaxy when Hive Fleet Behemoth came knocking? Of course it wouldn't because Fenris is on the other side of the galaxy from Ultramar.

I'll get off my soapbox now. Congrats if you made it through that whole rant. I don't mean to sound confrontational but the Ultramarine/Guilliman hate seems to border on the fanatical and I really am curious to know where it comes from.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:No, not really. That's the fun of 40k, there is so much that can only be speculated at; so when some new, tiny scrap of information is revealed, fans pounce upon it and tear it apart like alley cats to a bag of chips.

Dorn may have been more powerful than Horus, but not when he was powered by the Dark Gods during the Heresy.

im2randomghgh wrote:Yes but Dorn was yellow, yellow like the Simpsons, the Simpsons are cartoons, cartoons can't die, therefore Dorn is unkillable.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Yes but Dorn was yellow, yellow like the Simpsons, the Simpsons are cartoons, cartoons can't die, therefore Dorn is unkillable.

But he died.

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Yes but Dorn was yellow, yellow like the Simpsons, the Simpsons are cartoons, cartoons can't die, therefore Dorn is unkillable.

But he died.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Ultramarines fought a smaller, weaker legion that already has sustained casualties on Istvaan 5. If you had swapped the Ultramarines and the IF spots, you would have had Terra fall, since no one can even come close to the siege-defense skills of the Fists of Dorn. Also, Dorn+allies (3 legions of Astartes) fought off a force that was, IIRC, 6 legions of CSM with crusade fleet Imperial Army troopers and Titans.

Also, There haven't been anymore civil wars because all the Primarchs who sided with the Emperor were loyal, and dead/comatose/MIA.

Also, Dorn was, I beleive, more powerful than Lupercal. It is known that Valdor defeated Horus in a sparring match, and Valdor didn't want to spar with Dorn because he didn't fancy his chances. Think about it.

andain841 wrote:
It's not that I don't like Dorn, I like him just fine. I just think it's silly to hate on Guilliman when his list of accomplishments is at least as long as Dorn's.

andain841 wrote:I guess I will address these in order. Yes the Word Bearers were smaller than the Ultramarines; the Ultras were the largest legion and the Word Bearers the second. That said, the element of surprise is a massive force multiplier. Since the Word Bearers caught the Ultramarines completely by surprise it is difficult to say how much the larger size of the Ultramarines Legion counted in the outcome (I'm sure it made a difference though). The "casualties on Istvaan 5" point seems nonsensical to me. Didn't the Sons of Horus/Luna Wolves, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and Death Guard (all of whom were also at Istvaan) sustain casualties there too? Does that make the victory won at Terra less impressive?

The traitor legions on Terra thing seems like a vague area of the background in some cases. The old board game listed the traitor legions present in force as the four listed above (Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Emperor's Children, and Death Guard). There is other background that seems to indicate that the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors were present too, though in what amount it's difficult to say. You could call that six legions but remember that all of them took serious losses when they cleansed their ranks of loyalists. Calling that six full legions is being generous, to say the least. I'm fully confident that the Ultramarines could have held the walls of the palace at least as well as the Fists by dint of having twice the bodies to use to do it. Dorn had fortified the palace long before the siege began. Also we shouldn't forget that it was not just space marines guarding the palace. There were plenty of loyalist army units, Titans etc. on hand as well. Lastly, sticking with the swapping the Fists and Ultras idea, I'm pretty sure that if the Word Bearers had launched a surprise attack on the Imperial Fists it would have ended really badly for Dorn's legion.

You're correct on point two. The loyal primarchs were generally gone after the Heresy. So who would you trust to lead a space marine legion? If a primarch couldn't be trusted to wield that kind of power, which they obviously couldn't, then who could? The Badad War was a complete disaster for the Imperium but just imagine what would have happened if Huron had been in charge of an entire legion. Guilliman didn't split the legions to prove a point; he did it because he realized that giving one man, Astartes or not, the power of an Astartes Legion was a bad idea. Chapters have turned traitor/renegade since the Heresy so it's not like it fixed the loyalty issues. The codex simply limits the damage that renegade space marines can do. Consider this, if the chapter system had existed before the Heresy would Horus have been able to pull off his rebellion? He would have needed to convince a hundred or more space marine commanders to join him instead of just nine. The legion system was flawed. At least now if space marines go renegade they aren't powerful enough to have a go at toppling the entire Imperium.

It's not that I don't like Dorn, I like him just fine. I just think it's silly to hate on Guilliman when his list of accomplishments is at least as long as Dorn's.

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. You are WAAAAAAAAY over-estimating the element of surprise. When you have 100,000 super-human warriors, the element of surprise means that the front reank may get mown down. Astartes are ALWAYS ready for war, and rarely out of their armour.

im2randomghgh wrote:
I too will address these in order.

1. You are WAAAAAAAAY over-estimating the element of surprise. When you have 100,000 super-human warriors, the element of surprise means that the front reank may get mown down. Astartes are ALWAYS ready for war, and rarely out of their armour.

2. With the Isstvan 5 thing, the ultras were facing a force more numerically inferior than it ordinarily would have been. The Fists still need to hold Terra (with their own numbers depleted from the martian civil war) with extremely depleted titan support (again, due to the martian civil war) against 6 legions-Black Legion, World Eaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors and IIRC Alpha Legion. The only advantage the loyalists had were the custodes.

3. The Ultramarines Could NOT have held the walls as well as the Fists-if the IF had been in the Eastern Fringe, the IP would have been just a pretty palace without defenses. The Fists fixed this prettiness problem.

4. The Traitors had cultists and MANY traitor titans, as well as GD prancing around, killing everything in sight. Also, having more Primarchs is NOT something to scoff at. If anyone read the HH books detailing the fighting at Isstvan 5, then you'll remember that the Primarchs were nigh-invincible to Astartes.

5. The remaining Primarchs who were loyal and alive were the purest of the primarchs, the purest of the purest of the pure. They were the noble aspects of the Emperor. Every one of His sons were an embodiment of one of his traits. Magnus his psychic might, Horus his ambition, sanguinius his beauty, and Dorn his honesty and wisdom. Just a few examples. The negative, corruptible aspects of the GEoM were purged (the hard way ) and only the best and noblest remained. They were more than fit to lead armies. Also, Warmaster Macaroth command more power than any primarch, barring horus, ever had, and that was okay with the Imperium, and he, a fallible man, succeeded, and remained pure. If they want to avoid giving to much power to individuals, then WTF is with the Inquisition? They don't command soldiers to turn traitor, so much as have the power to kill Imperial planets without breaking any rules. Sounds like a good way to betray the big E to me.

6. Chapters have turned traitor, but this would likely be equivalent to having a great company go traitor, as betrayal doesn't necessarily mean on full-scale, especially under the command of the *pure* Primarchs.

Sorry if it got a bit rantish at parts

Pacific wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

1. You are WAAAAAAAAY over-estimating the element of surprise. When you have 100,000 super-human warriors, the element of surprise means that the front reank may get mown down. Astartes are ALWAYS ready for war, and rarely out of their armour.

I think you need to read the Collected Visions book (again if you have already done so! ), the UM got absolutely mauled as a result of being unprepared for a friendly legion above them turning their guns on them. It's not the case of ranked warriors waiting for war on the battlefield, they were not on a war footing and probably scattered throughout various locations, then the traitor fleet practically destroyed them from orbit when they were unprepared for it, and followed it up with massed assault. Collected Visions points out that it was incredible that the UM managed to resist at all, and only managed to survive and start fighting back thanks to their excellent tactical and doctrinal awareness, which I think gives you some idea of the scale of the assault involved. The fact that there will possibly be a sequence of books written about the battle for the Ultramar system is another one I think is another indication of how big (and important) the war was.

And also the first story in the Age of Darkness Anthology, its not just the WB who are involved in the attack on Ultramar. 'Rules of Engagement' is a story about both Death Guard and World Eaters attacking the Ultramarines. Horus understand full well the importance of taking the Emperors largest legion (by some margin) out of the picture.

It's kinda ambiguous, there are stories in which he died, but they aren't canon, and all that IS canon is that they found his hand, doesn't mean he's dead. Angron had a mountain fall on him and was fine, so I don't see how it is so implausile that Dorn survived the explosion.

Here is the extract from the IA article:

There was no Chaos attack on Cadia. The Imperial Navy arrived in force while the Traitors were still licking their wounds. Released by the sudden disappearance of Ulthwe, Phalanx and the Imperial Fists led the Imperial counter-strike. They caught the Chaos fleet in the midst of repairs and routed it decisively. Even without their Primarch, the Imperial Fists were able to get to the right place at the right time. They boarded the Sword of Sacrilege before it could flee and recovered what remained of Rogal Dorn. His engraved skeletal hand continues to be maintained in stasis, their holiest icon, and serves as a constant reminder of the commitment expected of a Space Marine.

So I guess a little ambiguous, I've added emphasis to the quote, far less so than the likes of Corax or Russ though. I have always read it that he was killed in the encounter however.
I realise that you can take it either way however as it doesn't explicitly comment on him being killed (as was the case with Ferrus Mannus or Gulliman - and even then there are hints he might not be dead-dead! )

To be a bit of an arbitrator in this discussion, I think there is no reason to think that either Legion did badly per-se. The Fists (along with other Legions) pulled off a remarkable defence at Terra, although you could say that there backs were against the wall, and they had to fight like a cornered alley cat - it would have been the end of the Imperium, and therefore mankind, if they had failed. That the UM survived at all is also testament to their fighting prowess also, and it is unreasonable (in terms of what we have been told so far) to suppose that they could have had taken any roll in the defense of Terra after the betrayal at Calth and Ultramar.

andain841 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Ultramarines fought a smaller, weaker legion that already has sustained casualties on Istvaan 5. If you had swapped the Ultramarines and the IF spots, you would have had Terra fall, since no one can even come close to the siege-defense skills of the Fists of Dorn. Also, Dorn+allies (3 legions of Astartes) fought off a force that was, IIRC, 6 legions of CSM with crusade fleet Imperial Army troopers and Titans.

Also, There haven't been anymore civil wars because all the Primarchs who sided with the Emperor were loyal, and dead/comatose/MIA.

Also, Dorn was, I beleive, more powerful than Lupercal. It is known that Valdor defeated Horus in a sparring match, and Valdor didn't want to spar with Dorn because he didn't fancy his chances. Think about it.

You're correct on point two. The loyal primarchs were generally gone after the Heresy. So who would you trust to lead a space marine legion? If a primarch couldn't be trusted to wield that kind of power, which they obviously couldn't, then who could? The Badad War was a complete disaster for the Imperium but just imagine what would have happened if Huron had been in charge of an entire legion.

Mightmagic wrote:My vote goes to the Lion ! I like his chapter alot, however he did not do much during the heresy .

im2randomghgh wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Yes but Dorn was yellow, yellow like the Simpsons, the Simpsons are cartoons, cartoons can't die, therefore Dorn is unkillable.

But he died.

It's kinda ambiguous, there are stories in which he died, but they aren't canon, and all that IS canon is that they found his hand, doesn't mean he's dead. Angron had a mountain fall on him and was fine, so I don't see how it is so implausile that Dorn survived the explosion.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Yes but Dorn was yellow, yellow like the Simpsons, the Simpsons are cartoons, cartoons can't die, therefore Dorn is unkillable.

But he died.

It's kinda ambiguous, there are stories in which he died, but they aren't canon, and all that IS canon is that they found his hand, doesn't mean he's dead. Angron had a mountain fall on him and was fine, so I don't see how it is so implausile that Dorn survived the explosion.

As I told you in that other thread, see Index Astartes II and "Space Marine" (which is one of the oldest fluff-pieces in the game) for your canon confirmation...

im2randomghgh wrote:

Again, I'll do this in order.

Before I start, let me remind EVRYONE that BL isn't always canon. They described the legions as being approx. 50,000 astartes each, when in reality, they were about 10,000 each, with the WB having 15,000 and the UM 20,000.

1. Collected visions was making it dramatic. Otherwise, the book would suck. The death guard were not involved. They were 100% one of the legions invading terra.
Tell me, if collected visions had said UM had moar so dey autowin and were expecting and owned everything, would it still be a good book? No, I wouldn't think so.

2. It DOES explicitly mentions the fact that Ferrus Manus is dead, as in Fulgrim, Fulgrim brings Horus Ferrus' head. Also, it followed the fight between Fulgrim and Manus that killed Manus.

3. With the part I bolded, I think it is un-true, as one battle-ready Astartes would be reason to return to Sol IMHO.

4. With the part I underlined, I feel you are giving in-sufficient credit to the fists. They rescued the loyal Mechanicus elements, giving them Titan/knight/Miscellaneous Mechanicus military support for the defense, as well as fortifying the IP beyond the skills of any other legion. They were doing what they specialized at, and it showed. If they had been doing hit-and-run, the scars would have achieved special honours. If they had been doing assault squad tactics, the BA would have shown their worth. But they were force into siege craft, and the IF held them together.

Pacific wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Again, I'll do this in order.

Before I start, let me remind EVRYONE that BL isn't always canon. They described the legions as being approx. 50,000 astartes each, when in reality, they were about 10,000 each, with the WB having 15,000 and the UM 20,000.

1. Collected visions was making it dramatic. Otherwise, the book would suck. The death guard were not involved. They were 100% one of the legions invading terra.
Tell me, if collected visions had said UM had moar so dey autowin and were expecting and owned everything, would it still be a good book? No, I wouldn't think so.

2. It DOES explicitly mentions the fact that Ferrus Manus is dead, as in Fulgrim, Fulgrim brings Horus Ferrus' head. Also, it followed the fight between Fulgrim and Manus that killed Manus.

3. With the part I bolded, I think it is un-true, as one battle-ready Astartes would be reason to return to Sol IMHO.

4. With the part I underlined, I feel you are giving in-sufficient credit to the fists. They rescued the loyal Mechanicus elements, giving them Titan/knight/Miscellaneous Mechanicus military support for the defense, as well as fortifying the IP beyond the skills of any other legion. They were doing what they specialized at, and it showed. If they had been doing hit-and-run, the scars would have achieved special honours. If they had been doing assault squad tactics, the BA would have shown their worth. But they were force into siege craft, and the IF held them together.

Dan Abnett, Graham McNeil and most importantly Alan Merrett (the fluff godfather of the 40k universe if you will) went on record at Gencon 08 to say that The Horus Heresy series can be regarded as canon with regards to events of the Great Crusade and Heresy. But I don't think that matters - In ten years time, when given the choice between a book series of 50 books and a page and a half of from the old IA articles, it's pretty obvious where everyone will be getting their info and inspiration for new armies from!

Also, since the last Black Library live, the official line is going with the larger Legion numbers - 250,000 for the UM (by far the largest), then around 100,000 for the Word Bearers, 80,000 for the Ravenguard (source: The First Heretic and Raven's Flight).

Point 1 - both the Death Guard and World Eaters were involved in the attack on Calth during the Heresy, it's in the first story 'Rules of Engagement' in the new HH short story anthology (Age of Darkness). Of course, as this was during the 7 year conflict in between Istvaan and the assault on Terra, I'm not disagreeing with you here - ultimately the whole Legion could have gone on that fateful warp jump to Terra later on (once the UM had been removed as a credible threat).

And I stated that the Fists essentially saved Terra and by extension the Imperium, how can that be selling them short? I don't think anyone could doubt the role the Fists played in the defence of Terra, and no doubt when the HH book series reaches that point in the conflict, they will be painted in a suitable heroic light.

Regarding your point 3, at this point what actually happens in Calth is supposition. However, so far the HH series has followed Collected Visions pretty much exactly - I would expect the battle of Calth to follow it as well, at least with as broad a brush stroke as: 'Ultramarines get torn a new one."

Pacific wrote:That's why Merrett, Abnett and co. explicitly stated that for the events of the heresy only, the books could be considered canon. They are fully aware of the often far reaching disparity in how the dozens of different BL authors view the 40k universe.

But, this is not the case with the Horus Heresy book series. All of the writers meet at regular intervals at brain storming sessions, and larger plot developments have to be 'ok'd' before they go to print. For books such as A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, writers Abnett and McNeil kept in contact with each other to make sure their own descriptions of events didn't clash. To put it simply, there will be no marines firing multi-lasers or Primarch Rubinecks in the HH book series.

They even have a team of guys making sure that the HH series is tying into existing background, and books in the HH series which have already been written, to make sure that there are as few mistakes as possible. To put it mildly, they are making a massive effort to make sure the universe they are creating (because really they are 'creating', so much of it is breaking new ground) is cohesive.

Personally I think we are lucky - we've got the best writers at BL, both the old guard and some new and rising stars, working together on the grand daddy of 40k stories - the events which started everything, and created the 40k universe that we all know and love. I think it's going to go down as the jewel in BL's crown in the years to come, and I think we should count ourselves fortunate as fans to be able to enjoy it. 15 books in, and going on what I have written above, I think the 'not canon' argument is completely groundless and misplaced in this context.

Pacific wrote:Can you give me an example of when? It might be that it's an example of what Dan Abnett called 'holographic storytelling', different writers talking about the same thing but from a different angle. The events on Istvaan appeared differently depending on the Sons of Horus, Emperor's Children and Death Guard, although all of the accounts of that event were generally coherent.

Guardsman Nate wrote:ALPHA AND OMEGA BEGINNING AND END! >.> Roboute Guilliman sucks nid food waiting to happen anyhow guard power baby tanks and planes and troopers oh my

kizzdougs wrote:Fulgrim for sure, especially before his fall.
I have come to appreciate nearly all of the Primarchs as we have learned more about them through the HH series.

Guardsman Nate wrote:how bout no
grammar nazi

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Now, it's Rogal Dorn, he's awesome. He is a no nonsense character who is able to have a mess about. He is strong and implacable but is all to human.

He is very awesome. What's more, the Imperial Fists and also possibly their successors are some of the most 'human' Space Marines.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Pacific wrote:That's why Merrett, Abnett and co. explicitly stated that for the events of the heresy only, the books could be considered canon. They are fully aware of the often far reaching disparity in how the dozens of different BL authors view the 40k universe.

But, this is not the case with the Horus Heresy book series. All of the writers meet at regular intervals at brain storming sessions, and larger plot developments have to be 'ok'd' before they go to print. For books such as A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, writers Abnett and McNeil kept in contact with each other to make sure their own descriptions of events didn't clash. To put it simply, there will be no marines firing multi-lasers or Primarch Rubinecks in the HH book series.

They even have a team of guys making sure that the HH series is tying into existing background, and books in the HH series which have already been written, to make sure that there are as few mistakes as possible. To put it mildly, they are making a massive effort to make sure the universe they are creating (because really they are 'creating', so much of it is breaking new ground) is cohesive.

Personally I think we are lucky - we've got the best writers at BL, both the old guard and some new and rising stars, working together on the grand daddy of 40k stories - the events which started everything, and created the 40k universe that we all know and love. I think it's going to go down as the jewel in BL's crown in the years to come, and I think we should count ourselves fortunate as fans to be able to enjoy it. 15 books in, and going on what I have written above, I think the 'not canon' argument is completely groundless and misplaced in this context.

Even the HH novels contradict each other-often.

Movac wrote:

Darkvoidof40k wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Now, it's Rogal Dorn, he's awesome. He is a no nonsense character who is able to have a mess about. He is strong and implacable but is all to human.

He is very awesome. What's more, the Imperial Fists and also possibly their successors are some of the most 'human' Space Marines.

I find it difficult to read 40k books about SM because of not being able to relate to the characters. With the IF s and BT s I find that I can enjoy their stories much more which is probably why I have also invested a lot of money into them as models.

AvatarForm wrote:
On Istvaan (sp) each book dealing with this has different characters fighting and dying/surviving...

Pacific wrote:

AvatarForm wrote:
On Istvaan (sp) each book dealing with this has different characters fighting and dying/surviving...

I think you have differing interpretations of events, as they are written from the perspective of each character. However, there are no jarring clashes - a character getting killed in one (obviously) but then walking away and then high-fiving his brothers in another.

An example of this is when Lucius beheads the Chaplain Charmosean, that instance happens in two separate books, both viewed from different characters.

Pacific wrote:Have you got an example of that mate?

Zweischneid wrote:Roboute Guilliman

He made the Imperium in the Great Crusade. He and his Marines hold it together ever since the Heresy. All (other) Primarchs are good at kiling/destroying stuff. Guilliman was also good at making something of it. Oh, and Ultramarine is an exquisitly awsome colour.

Haters gonna hate.

im2randomghgh wrote:
How did he have any bigger role in constructing it than any other primarch? They all conquered hundreds of planets...

We've been over this extensively-there'd be no imperium left to protect if RD and the IF hadn't saved both Terra and Mars, and the only reasons there were enough UM left to fight for the IoM after is that they were on the other side of the galaxy, fighting a weaker legion.

Also, other primarchs were also builders-Rogal Dorn builds battlements and fortresses the length and breadth of the galaxy, magnificent castles as tall as heaven and deeper than hell.
Vulkan Built the sanctuary cities to give a chance of long, healthy lives to a population living on a death-world.
Just about every primarch landed on either war-torn or hell-hole planets and fixed them, making them paradise worlds for the most part.

RG and the UM leveled a city of billions, killing all of it's inhabitants, because the WB convinced the population the worship the Emperor as divine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, despite Ultramarine being an unbelievably beautiful colour, it just doesn't work on Astartes power armour.

Zweischneid wrote:
So when the Heresy hit, Dorn and his Spongebob-Marines hole up in the two best-defended planets of the galaxy

mayfist wrote:Corax. If cool had a picture in the dictionary, would be his