Latest posts for the thread "New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?"

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Loserx — GMT

Hello everyone,

I'm new to Dakka Dakka as a fella at the local game store just told me about it and i thought that this would be a good place to get some answers to my questions about the eldar army i'm starting. First off i've been playing Space Marines of one sort or another for a long time and have finally gotten sick of it (took waaaaaay to long too), so i decided to pick up eldar after finding my maguna-ra mini (first mini i ever bought) and deciding he is the coolest mini in the standard GW line. So i've added the battle force, a box of striking scorpions, a box of Dire Avengers, 3 Dark Reapers that i had bought with the Phoenix Lord, 7 of the old style Rangers, a farseer, and a warlock. So with my current selection of models i am almost a static force with only the Wave Serpent carrying a full squad of Dire Avengers an Autarch (made useing Dire Avengers bits , and a Farseer with guide and Doom being capable of fast movement. with this set up i've played one game which went decently even with me loseing. We played Dawn of War with Annihilation and i got second turn but was able to steal the initiative, all that started on the board was my five man pathfinder squad that only had one piece of area cover to deploy in which didn't end well for them (died two turns later without firing a single shot ). So i kept my war walker with Bright lance/Scatter Laser and my six striking scorpions in true reserve to outflank and then my 5 man dire avenger squad, my 20 guardians with a Scatter laser, three dark reapers, and wave serpent with TL Bright Lance and Shuriken Cannon carrying 10 dire avengers, an autarch and farseer all walked on the board edge and stayed their the rest of the game. I was playing Raven Guard (with out shrike) and he had deployed a rhino with a ten man Tac squad right at the 24" line, so i had all of my units move as far forward as they could and since they were lacking other targets they opened fire, the WS took out the rhino easily and two marines in the process, and then the five man dire avenger squad took out 7 more with the aid of blade storm, doom, and guide the next turn. but he had a combi-plasma and a plasma gun which immobilized my WS first turn. my war walker took out a Land Speeder storm and a scout before becoming bogged down in CC and my WS got a "Crew Shaken" result on his Redeemer.

TLDR; With my army essentially hoofing it now i started thinking how a Eldar Gun Line would look similar to an IG gun line as i'm teaming up with my Guard playing friend for a doubles tourney soon, so what can you more experienced players tell me?

Re:New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

akaean — GMT

Eldar Gunline huh? Its entirely doable, but I'll admit right away that it works better at lower point levels.

The real stars for this sort of list would be Eldrad Ulthran (for spamming of the guide) and War Walkers. Pound for pound war walkers are the most powerful shooting unit in the codex in terms of raw fire power for points.

(180) 3 War Walkers- 6x scatter lasers

For 180 points you get 24 scatter laser shots. With guide giving re rolls, you can get 18 s6 hits against an opponent. That will shred light armor, and force a large number of saves on infantry units / MCs. Just a great unit all around.

Dark Reapers sadly, are too situational. They have a large per model cost, and are only effective against Marines who are not in cover. The exarch can take a missile launcher and fast shot to get some anti mech, but generally that wastes the other members reaper launchers and going crack shot+ tempest launcher makes them better at killing spess mahreens. Reapers greatest flaw is that they need to compete with War Walkers for a force org slot. OFC judging by the popularity of the DoW games, it might be possible to see Reapers as troops in the next Eldar codex- which would make gunline eldar a bit more viable.

It sounds like what you are running is a hybrid between mech eldar (a fast wing) and a more foot oriented Eldar. This isn't as good as an army focused on one or the other. We are not spess mahreens, our army needs to function as a cohesive whole, with every unit and every upgrade contributing to the overall purpose.

If you really want to run a pheonix lord, Maugen Ra with a unit of Harlequins can be a good choice. Maugen Ra and the Death Jester can contribute to your long range shooting, while the shadow seer protects them from long range fire power. The unit also serves as an excellent counter charge unit.

Generally gunline Eldar will be the weakest of the biulds avialable however.

Mechdar for a variety of reasons is considered the strongest all comers build

Wraithwall is still very vialbe, but is edged out by mechdar due to its bad match ups against DE and Guard.

The problem with gunline is that you need to rely on guardians for long range heavy support from your troops. All of our long range firing units are stuffed in Heavy Support, and it gets crowded really fast when trying to make a long range shooting list.

The principle behind wraithwall is that when fielding a squad of troop wraithguard, the Avatar, and 3 Wraithlords, supported by fortune spamming Eldrad is that you can wade through incredible amounts of punishment to get into your kill range. Any fast assaulters that meet your lines are met with harlequins, wraithlords and avatar counter charging. If you are interested in hoofing it for whatever reason wraithwall is very rewarding to play.

Here is an example of a pretty typical 2000 point wraithwall list.

Spoiler:

Anyway I hope you found that helpful If you have a points limit that you are playing at I'm sure we can help you build a list more specific to your needs / what models you own.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Flavius Infernus — GMT

I've been looking at this list, and it looks to me like it would work, although there's some learning curve:

http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2011/02/eldar-another-look/

The trick is you still need some mobile elements in any Eldar list because nearly everybody can outshoot you point-for-point (because Eldar firepower is overpriced). So the mobile parts--a couple of jetbike and serpent units in this case--need to be able to close with and kill the biggest long-range threats so that your shooting units can survive long enough to do their job.

Re:New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

ColdSadHungry — GMT

akaean wrote: supported by fortune spamming Eldrad

I've read about Eldrad spamming stuff before but how does he 'spam' something? Even with spirit stones, he can't use the same power twice in a turn can he? That's fortune cast on one squad per turn - useful but not amazing. Am I missing something? Just curious as I, too am going to start putting a small eldar force together.

Re:New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

somerandomdude — GMT

Nothing limits you from casting the same power multiple times (other than psychic shooting attacks).

Re:New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Roadkill Zombie — GMT

Ok, lets get this straightened out right away. You can only cast a psychic power once per turn. However, Eldrad has the Staff of Ulthamar, which allows him to cast a psychic power twice in the same turn. However, he can still only cast one psychic power per turn that counts as a psychic shooting attack.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Flavius Infernus — GMT

Right, check the codex. He is specifically allowed to cast the same non-shooting power twice in the same turn. Only one shooting power, though, as per the shooting rules.

Re:New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

DarknessEternal — GMT

Roadkill Zombie wrote:[Eldar Psykers] can only cast a psychic power once per turn. However, Eldrad has the Staff of Ulthamar, which allows him to cast a psychic power twice in the same turn. However, he can still only cast one psychic power per turn that counts as a psychic shooting attack.

Fixed the [] part since it doesn't apply to any other type of psyker.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

ColdSadHungry — GMT

I get it. As a farseer with spirit stones, he can cast two powers per turn, which cannot be the same. With his staff, he can cast a third power which can be the same as one of the two he has already cast.

And as per the psychic shooting attacks rules, he can only cast one of those per turn regardless of his staff. This power is one of his three that he can cast in a turn.

I think i've read that right. Right?

Re:New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Roadkill Zombie — GMT

DarknessEternal wrote:
Roadkill Zombie wrote:[Eldar Psykers] can only cast a psychic power once per turn. However, Eldrad has the Staff of Ulthamar, which allows him to cast a psychic power twice in the same turn. However, he can still only cast one psychic power per turn that counts as a psychic shooting attack.

Fixed the [] part since it doesn't apply to any other type of psyker.

Some people would argue that the end of the last paragraph on page 50 of the main rule book that states" (But still cannot use the same power twice in a turn)" would mean it applies to everyone, not just Eldar Psykers. Couple that with the wording on the Staff of Ulthamar that says"If Eldrad is not in an assult it can allow Eldrad to use a third psychic power per turn, which may be a psychic power he has alread used that turn." and I believe that was the intent of that last phrase on page 50.

Yes, you got it right ColdSadHungry.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Amanax — GMT

Uhm... and Eldar farseers can get spirit stones, which allow them to use a second psychic power that isn't the same as the one they've already cast this turn.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Loserx — GMT

wow i'm glad you guys cleared that up for me as well! i've been considering eldrad as he is 5pts cheaper then a kited out Farseer but he has a better invulnerable save and 3 powers per turn AND he can cast the same spell twice! which means that a very pesky MEQ unit will be getting doomed while my two units of Dire Avengers get Guide to destroy them!!! (with blade storm of course)

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

wuestenfux — GMT

Flavius Infernus wrote:Right, check the codex. He is specifically allowed to cast the same non-shooting power twice in the same turn. Only one shooting power, though, as per the shooting rules.

Moreover, if he's in cc, he will be allowed to cast 2 powers, not 3.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

whitedragon — GMT

Certain Eldar Afficianados from Toledo run Eldrad and Maugan Ra with 10 Wraithguard as a core of their footdar list.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Searth — GMT

If yer new to eldar you gotta know about the awsomeness of Avengers. You have 9 Avengers with Exarch who use Power wep and skimmer shield folloed by a doom farseer.

that gives you 27 str 4 ap 5 (with bladestorm) shots that hit on 3+ and wound most infantery on 3+ or 4+ and with the farseers doom you can reroll fail to wound

And with the exarch power wep you have a chanse against heavy armored targets and have a 5+ inv save in CC.

And having them in a transport means you can fly 12" and jump out with the avenger and unleash a horrible load of shots at enemy infantery/MC.. And the farseers Singing spear/witchblade can murder a tank or something!

Dire avengers in my heart! <3 wooo!

(sry for my crappy english, im kinda tired atm)

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

wuestenfux — GMT

If yer new to eldar you gotta know about the awsomeness of Avengers. You have 9 Avengers with Exarch who use Power wep and skimmer shield folloed by a doom farseer.

If you take Avengers tooled up for cc, then give the Exarch shimmer shield and defend and let the unit be fortuned.
They can hold their own against various cc units (like CSM Termies) but not against the nastiest cc units out there.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Netglen — GMT

wuestenfux wrote:
If yer new to eldar you gotta know about the awsomeness of Avengers. You have 9 Avengers with Exarch who use Power wep and skimmer shield folloed by a doom farseer.

If you take Avengers tooled up for cc, then give the Exarch shimmer shield and defend and let the unit be fortuned.
They can hold their own against various cc units (like CSM Termies) but not against the nastiest cc units out there.

With just the 5++ shimmer shield for the squad? Even with fortune, isn't that still slim odds?

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Mordoskul — GMT

You CAN do an Eldar gunline, but in my experience, it's not something you SHOULD do. It boils down to what army you're fighting. For example, Bladestorming a group of Dark Eldar tends to result in the complete annihilation of the rival squad. However, vs Spess Mehrens, Dire Avengers, in my experience, tend to be rather pitiful.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Roadkill Zombie — GMT

Netglen wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
If yer new to eldar you gotta know about the awsomeness of Avengers. You have 9 Avengers with Exarch who use Power wep and skimmer shield folloed by a doom farseer.

If you take Avengers tooled up for cc, then give the Exarch shimmer shield and defend and let the unit be fortuned.
They can hold their own against various cc units (like CSM Termies) but not against the nastiest cc units out there.

With just the 5++ shimmer shield for the squad? Even with fortune, isn't that still slim odds?

Yes, actually I've found them to be perfect at taking on Terminators of any kind, including the kind with the 3++ save.

Terminators don't have a lot of attacks to begin with and people like to take them against your nastiest units. So if you charge a unit of terminators with a Dire Avenger squad with Power Weapon, Shimmershield, and Defend, and just happen to have Eldrad in it, you have effectively stalled that terminator unit for the rest of the game.

I've had Dark Angels Terminators charge into my unit of Dire Avengers set up just like that and by turn six of the game all of the Terminators and a special character were dead thanks to Eldrads ability to keep them alive with Fortune, dooming the Terminators, and the Exarch having Defend. To make it even more funny, the Dark Angels player charged in with a second squad of termies to try to help out. So ten termies and a special character died to just my one squad of Dire Avengers with Eldrad.

It was the most fun I've had vs Marines of any kind in a very long time. And the look on my opponents face at the end of the game was priceless

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Chaplain Pallantide — GMT

For sake of discussion, would something along these lines be good for a footdar list @ 1500pts?:

HQ:
Farseer

Avatar

Elite:
6xStriking Scorpions w/Exarch, shadow strike

10xBanshees with Exarch, executioner in Wave serpent

Troops:
2x10 Dire Avengers w/Exarch, dual cats and blade storm

Heavy Support:
3xWraithlords w/Eldar missile launcher, wraithsword (due to coolness factor)

maybe a small unit of fire dragons in a wave serpent for tank hunting?

Re:New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Amanax — GMT

The problem with Avengers on foot though, is how easy they are to kill with shooting. Sure, with eldrad they can do alright in CC... but that's true of just about every Eldar unit in the game. Just look at scorpions with eldrad. Deadly as hell.

I would be more inclined towards harlequins. Someone earlier mentioned Eldrad and Maugan Ra- I have run these two attached to a Harlequin squad (With Death Jester) to some nasty effect. Due to the Shadow seer, they can't target you with most of their guns. Eldrad allows you to reroll to hit, to wound (If in range) and the invuln saves if there is a threat near enough to get past the Shadowseer. Not only that, but they will also grant your other units cover saves, and act as an amazing counter charge unit (With Harlequins kiss anyways). Just some food for thought.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

wuestenfux — GMT

Netglen wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
If yer new to eldar you gotta know about the awsomeness of Avengers. You have 9 Avengers with Exarch who use Power wep and skimmer shield folloed by a doom farseer.

If you take Avengers tooled up for cc, then give the Exarch shimmer shield and defend and let the unit be fortuned.
They can hold their own against various cc units (like CSM Termies) but not against the nastiest cc units out there.

With just the 5++ shimmer shield for the squad? Even with fortune, isn't that still slim odds?

Actually, I wouldn't do it.
But once in a game with CSM vs. Eldar, I had a 10 men Termie squad taking on 10 tooled-up DA - not sure which unit got the charge.
This DA squad was absolutely annoying holding up my Termies for a few rounds.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Zid — GMT

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:For sake of discussion, would something along these lines be good for a footdar list @ 1500pts?:

HQ:
Farseer

Avatar

Elite:
6xStriking Scorpions w/Exarch, shadow strike

10xBanshees with Exarch, executioner in Wave serpent

Troops:
2x10 Dire Avengers w/Exarch, dual cats and blade storm

Heavy Support:
3xWraithlords w/Eldar missile launcher, wraithsword (due to coolness factor)

maybe a small unit of fire dragons in a wave serpent for tank hunting?

If your doing footdar Harlequins are pretty much a "must take" for cover. Also, I believe guardians are better than avengers in that style of list (cheaper, can take heavy weapons)

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

wuestenfux — GMT

Zid wrote:
Chaplain Pallantide wrote:For sake of discussion, would something along these lines be good for a footdar list @ 1500pts?:

HQ:
Farseer

Avatar

Elite:
6xStriking Scorpions w/Exarch, shadow strike

10xBanshees with Exarch, executioner in Wave serpent

Troops:
2x10 Dire Avengers w/Exarch, dual cats and blade storm

Heavy Support:
3xWraithlords w/Eldar missile launcher, wraithsword (due to coolness factor)

maybe a small unit of fire dragons in a wave serpent for tank hunting?

If your doing footdar Harlequins are pretty much a "must take" for cover. Also, I believe guardians are better than avengers in that style of list (cheaper, can take heavy weapons)

In a footdar list, a Farseer and an Avatar are mandatory.
It also needs a counter-strike unit that can hit hard. The best bet are Harlies (with kisses, incl. Shadowseer), while Banshees or Scorpions do not fulfill this role very well.
WL's with eml's and brightlances are good at anti-tank.
Warp Spiders would also be useful for taking on fast moving units threatening your front ranks.
I second Zid here that Guardians walking in the Avatar's fearless bubble are the better bet.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Chaplain Pallantide — GMT

@Zid and Westenflux:

What would a 1500pt Footdar list be? Not to hijack the thread, but my questions would be:

3 Units of Harlequins? If so how many per unit and what upgrades?

How many guardian squads is good for 1500pts? Again, what loadout works best for them?

Should I run Eldrad or go for a cheaper farseer?

(I wonder if I still have my old rogue trader harlequins?)

I was just trying to make a list with as many of the models that I currently own. I want to keep the wraithlords as they are...Should I get any warlocks?

Thanks!

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

wuestenfux — GMT

I'd consider the following units to be mandatory:

Doomseer w/ runes of warding,
Avatar,
6-10 Harlies w/ kisses incl. Shadowseer,
1-2 WL's w/ eml, brightlance,
3 Warwalkers w/ scatterlasers.

The rest can be filled with cheap Guardian Defender units, say 10 Guardians w/ scatterlaser.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Chaplain Pallantide — GMT

Would it be a mortal sin if I went with Sword and EML on the wraithlords instead oh and if I went with three of them and bypassed the warwalkers?

Re:New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

ColdSadHungry — GMT

How viable is a list with 3 Wraithlords? That Toughness 8 means that all but the very strongest of weapons aren't going to be any good against them and you can tie up almost any unit that isn't a MC or similar type in CC and own them. Even a squad of sang guard would just stand there failing to do anything. Plus they have 3 wounds and can't be ID'd with any weapon due to it's strength. And they can take very long ranged anti armour stuff themselves.

OK, it would mean no Falcons but you can still put troops that need transports in Wave Serpents to get around. Am I not thinking straight here because one Wraithlord looks like a headache for an opponent but three is a problem that needs to be addressed leaving your Striking Scorpions/Fire Dragons to get to where they need to be. Obviously force weapons are a problem but there isn't much out there that can truly frighten a Wraithlord.

And I realise I'd need a few spiritseers and can Eldrad start the game in a Wave Serpent?

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Flavius Infernus — GMT

Lots of armies now pack tons of missile launchers and melta for antitank. Think about typhoon speeders, long fangs, guard command squads or vets with 4 meltaguns each...

So all those str8 weapons wound wraithlords on a 4, and don't allow his armor save (and monstrous creatures are hard to get cover for). He only has 3 wounds. In my experience, often one volley of shots from a unit of long fangs will put down a wraithlord. In Eldar-on-Eldar games, I've killed wraithlords pretty easily with a single unit of fire dragons (doom helps).

Also wraithlords are slow. Things that don't want to get caught by them in assault can usually avoid them. Personally, I put my wraithlords on the shelf for competitive play until the game changes again to make them more viable.

Yes, Eldrad or any independent character can be deployed inside a transport, with or without a unit in there too, as long as he can legally join the unit.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

wuestenfux — GMT

Yeah, Wraithlords are not too difficult to take down these days.
As Flavius said, there are several units out there able to take an WL down quickly.
Additionally, I'd like to mention DE with dark matter and poisoned weapons.
WL's are slow so that the enemy can first concentrate on other threats like Fire Dragons in Serpents.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Chaplain Pallantide — GMT

What if I went with something along the following:

HQ:
Avatar

Farseer

Elites:
3x6 Harlequins with Shadowseer

Troops:
3x10 Guardians with Scatterlasers

Heavy Support:
3xWraithlords with Sword, EML (maybe just one will be with sword while the others have Brightlance/EML??)

Thoughts??

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Powerguy — GMT

Sadly that list is about as optimised a Footdar list as you can make (you can tweak the Wraithlord weapon options and then scale up or down with more Troops etc) but is still pretty much going to get taken apart by anything resembling a competitive list. You have 1 average MC and 3 sub par MCs (which are mostly limited to being used as gun platforms), 3 decent but very squishy assault units, maybe 6 S8 shots and 12 (BS3) S6 shots as your long ranged shooting, 3 sub par melta units up close and only 3 very vulnerable scoring units.

You should lose at least 1 of those MCs per turn, probably starting with the Wraithlords because finding cover for them is next to impossible (and the Farseer probably Fortunes the Avatar because if it dies the army falls apart). The Farseer has to go with a unit of Harlies (as its not hard to torrent an entire squad of Guardians off the board even with cover) which limits their mobility and usefulness.

In short feel free to use it, but don't expect too much from it.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

wuestenfux — GMT

Too less shooting in the first rounds, just 3 eml's and 3 scatter lasers.
One Harlie unit generally suffices. Sometimes it can be good to throw an expendible squad in front of them, like Jetbikes, or even a Serpent.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Chaplain Pallantide — GMT

@Wuestenflux: Would I be better off Making 2 of the wraithlords armed with Bright lance and EML's? I think I am ok to do that...though I love the way the sword looks...

So I only need 1 unit of Harlequins? If I dropped 2 units, what should I pick up instead?

Thanks.

New to eldar... is a "Eldar Gun Line" a viable stratagy?

Amanax — GMT

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:@Wuestenflux: Would I be better off Making 2 of the wraithlords armed with Bright lance and EML's? I think I am ok to do that...though I love the way the sword looks...

So I only need 1 unit of Harlequins? If I dropped 2 units, what should I pick up instead?

Thanks.

2x (5x Fire dragons in a wave serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannon)

It's Eldars best anti tank unit really.