<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Grey knights...how do you beat em?!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Grey knights...how do you beat em?! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2804657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2804657.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! str low ap blasts, anything that hits them heaps also causes massive damage. As Dash will tell you, any well built all comers list should easily be able to have all the tools to deal with GK.


Problem with GK is, every squad potentially has the tools to deal with whatever you throw at them, you must identify your enemies weaknesses ON the battlefield, and exploit them to full effect. No Purifers? Spam them. You have psychic protection? Send multiwounded models. No long range AT? Leman russ are AWESOME against GK. Strike Squad spam? Shoota boyz will outshoot them easily.

Theres so much you can do, but if you play into their plan, any army can beat you. GK are far from unbeatable. Admittedly they are tough, but Id rather face GK than SW or BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(Divide and Conquer also works very well)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2805917.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2805917.page GMT Re:Grey knights...how do you beat em?! Gk seem to have about a 50% win ratio, and its like 4 or 5 players who post them.

You play space wolves which is actually one of the best armies to fight GK in the entire game.

Here are tools any SM player can use to beat GK:

Librarians. Runepriests are better, given that you can take more of them, their hood is superior and so are their powers. These guys shut down the psychic powers so many people find annoying. A good GK list isn't built around the powers, but being able to shut that part of the army down is a huge boost in your favor. These guys are a solid choice for your HQ slot in almost any game.

TH/SS terminators: These guys will *usually* wreck just about any GK unit they face in combat, based purely on the storm shields. GK do have the tools to fight hammernators, but you won't usually find them in the typical list, meaning that the average GK player will struggle against them. You will rarely go wrong with a unit or 2 of assault terminators, no matter who you face.

Devastators/Longfangs: these guys can fight at almost double GK's effective range of 24", and if you spam missile launchers and lascannons, you will have an easy time finding good targets. Being immobile is their only weakness against a fast army like GK, but they don't have a unit-for-unit answer to heavy weapon teams like this, given the range difference. These guys can be a little more hit and miss than the other 2 choices, given that they are immobile and require LOS and long range to work to their full extent, but when you set them up properly they will definitely perform well.

Land Raiders: One thing GK seriously, seriously lack is access to melta and high strength, long range weapons. Unless they play henchmen spam (most GK don't), they simply won't have a lot of melta or lascannons, which are really the only good answers to AV14 that imperial armies have. Against GK, play smart and don't rush your land raiders forward, like you might in a normal game, and instead stand off and shoot from a distance. Land Raiders can easily fight with near immunity at long range against GK and it can be easy to plan your game when you know the enemy player has to come to you or lose.


For regular SM: its hard to go wrong with Vulcan salamander lists, focused on melta/flamers and hammer terminators. These weapons do great against GK and as a bonus, this army tends to bring a lot of high invulnerable save units to the game, which GK really struggle against.

For wolves: there are a lot of competitive builds out there that work just fine against GK. Virtually any of the standard list types will be successful, with the exception of maybe TWC spam, as GK tend to eat high toughness cc units for breakfast. For specifics, bring at least 1 runepriest, like you should have anyways, and spam long fangs like everyone else, because they are just that effective.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2805998.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2805998.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! twc, so I guess a change of tactics is in order.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2806393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2806393.page GMT Re:Grey knights...how do you beat em?! GK we played 1500 points. He had a very low model count, he was very spread out, and I was able to focus my entire army on one or two units at a time. Tactical marines suck, but 5 Strike squad knights don't stand up to a 10 rapid fire tacs, a MM/HF speeder, an autolas pred and a TLLC from a dread for very long, not when the SS isn't quite in cover yet. Similar scenes of 600-1200 points of SM shooting/assaulting 200-300 points of GKs occured a few more times across the board.

Only thing he had left on the board was a totally untouched draigostar by the end. It never got close enough to be a real threat.

Like other posters have said, you have the benefits of range. Sit back, shoot, when he gets close enough hit him in the face with hammernators. In the case of space wolves, I have seen Grimnar + 4x TH or PF + SS terminators pop out of a landraider into a foot based draigostar, popped living legend and preferred enemy, and wiped the paladins from the board. May want to use that as an alternative for TWC. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2806462.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2806462.page GMT Re:Grey knights...how do you beat em?!
SOFDC wrote:In my last game Ultramarines vs. GK we played 1500 points. He had a very low model count, he was very spread out, and I was able to focus my entire army on one or two units at a time. Tactical marines suck, but 5 Strike squad knights don't stand up to a 10 rapid fire tacs, a MM/HF speeder, an autolas pred and a TLLC from a dread for very long, not when the SS isn't quite in cover yet. Similar scenes of 600-1200 points of SM shooting/assaulting 200-300 points of GKs occured a few more times across the board.

Only thing he had left on the board was a totally untouched draigostar by the end. It never got close enough to be a real threat.

Like other posters have said, you have the benefits of range. Sit back, shoot, when he gets close enough hit him in the face with hammernators. In the case of space wolves, I have seen Grimnar + 4x TH or PF + SS terminators pop out of a landraider into a foot based draigostar, popped living legend and preferred enemy, and wiped the paladins from the board. May want to use that as an alternative for TWC.


I saw that draigostar vs loganwing battle. It was epic. Logan's abilities and stormshields were the nail in the coffin.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2806503.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2806503.page GMT Re:Grey knights...how do you beat em?! PE hitting paladins will cause extreme discomfort. Followed by death. To top it off the LR almost guarantees the charge vs. GK.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2806517.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2806517.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! TWC and TH/SS Terminators, they can't counter them very easily because even their Terminators aren't that survivable.

In short they play almost exactly the same way as normal (as in nilla not BA or SW) Marines, trading numbers for some extra hitting power, but crucially no added survivability, so they are vulnerable to the exact same kinds of stuff.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2806886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2806886.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! twc, nobs)? It seems to me that charging would be the last thing to do, minus terminator on terminator brawls. Shooting seems the way to go.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2808015.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2808015.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! IG. large blast templates with high stregnth and low AP. Since GK list are usualy low model counts, concentrate on a single unit with everything you have in range. If you have a unit out of range of the primary target, then, targets of opprotunity.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2808090.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2808090.page GMT Re:Grey knights...how do you beat em?! GK really aren't that bad, going off a few bat-reps isn't a great measure of how the army is doing. Space Wolves are still the more powerful army, or, I worry more when I see a SW army on the opposite side of the table.

I play Sisters and Tau, so far I've personally only played 3 full games against the Knights, but have a win and draw with my Sisters, and a win with my Tau.

From what I've seen so far, GK are good generalists. Every GK unit can do CC, and also can shoot. They pay for that ability, and each unit isn't 'great' at either role. So you're left with good units, but not many of them.

The real trick is to make sure you're substantially better than them at something. If your army goes CC heavy, then make sure you put enough effort and points into CC to be markedly better than the GK units. If your army is a strong shooting army, then make sure you have much better shooting than the GK and will easily win the ranged battle.

My Tau and Sisters are both better than the majority of GK armies at shooting. Yes I do often lose in CC, but using standard Tau/Sisters tactics (buffering, rhino walls, target priorities, etc.) that weakness can be reduced and my shooting wins by attrition. With a CC army, (with the exception of Psyfledreads) most of the GK units have a pretty short range, so getting locked in isn't super difficult, so as long as you bring right tools you should take relatively few casualties and then be able to beat them in CC.

That all is a bit simplified, but from a 'meta' standpoint I think it holds up without getting bogged down in builds, counters, specific units or good tactics (which you should already be well practiced with anyway).

Thats the way I see it anyway]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2808153.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2808153.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! SM heavy mech army? I'm working on a 2000 point army that is mostly LasPlas Razors, speeders (mix of MM/HF and Typhoon), rifledreads, and sternguard. I don't have room for a TH/SS blob. Can I outshoot GK? Because 5-man razorback tacticals aren't going to cut it in CC.

I can think of lots of builds to use if I were tailoring for GK, but for all comers I want to try the mech approach. It just seems like GK can put out more shooting and more CC. :-(]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2830369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2830369.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! GK want too shoot you up then assault. If your constantly firing on them you can't lose. Assaulting IMO Isn't a good Idea they usually just have a MSU that gets used as a sheild which then gets bailed out.

Movement and long range firepower will win the day.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2830398.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2830398.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! CC and save a turn of being shot at. (and get the extra assault range).

Tau are a real annoyance - as are any units that can shoot 'through' cover

I disagree that horde armies are good against them, every time I have come up against one...its been a case of we assault each other in 2nd turn - by third turn he's down to half his list, then its a case of mopping up the MC or heavy units.

What I'm trying to say, is against horde - I don't need a tactic. Against something with ranged fire power - I've got to really think about how I'm going to close to my 24" kill range.

Eagle

Eagle]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2830480.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2830480.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?!
Nantukoshade wrote:I see. Sad thing is, I normally play twc, so I guess a change of tactics is in order.



Well there's your problem.


TWC get wrecked by GKs, army wide Force Weapons means your puppies are sad pandas.

GK shooting can also wear them down by forcing loads of saves.


that said, GKs are one army out of many and you shouldn't change your list up based on one army that may or may not be very common in your area.

if they are, then yeah, you want to change, but if there is only 1 and you have 20-30 other players then its not a huge deal.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2830714.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2830714.page GMT Re:Grey knights...how do you beat em?!
About the most epic anti-shooty bugger out there. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831237.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831237.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831385.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831385.page GMT Re:Grey knights...how do you beat em?! TH/SS seem to do extremely well against GK in general. They don't have enough attacks to wipe them out like a unit of boyz does, and their power weapon advantage mostly is nullified. I played a very competitive Grey knights list with 2x Land raiders full of TH/SS and managed to win.

Librarians are also a must have. Tons of people in my local area are picking up Grey Knights, and this has forced me to include a 100pt PA librarian in ALL of my lists.

Grey knights will destroy tactical squads though, which really sucks. Vehicle vs Vehicle also sucks really bad for codex marines, due to 5pt psybolt ammo on everything (str 8 autocannons and str 6 heavy bolters) and fortitude ignoring shaken/stunned.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831437.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831437.page GMT Re:Grey knights...how do you beat em?!
Grey knights don't want to assualt you, they need to wear you out with shooting first. Their strength is that many assault weapon shots then the power weapon assault into the depleted enemy.


I don't agree here - It really depends on what you are facing with the GK. In most cases, with Purifiers, They should assault - A 10 man Sqd will have 8 x S4 (or S5) and 8 x S8 shots at BS4 - mean I agree. On the other side in an assault they get cleansing flame (50% of your models will take a armour save), followed by 14 x S4 I6 (21 if they charged), 2 x S8 I1 (3 if they charged) and 4 S4 I4 (6 if they charged) attacks. Oh and most of these are power weapons (Not force, because they used flame). And they get to do that in your assault phase to!

If your unit survives the first assault, then the GK aren't being shot at for a turn, which is a huge result for them - as we've agreed there are only so many.

I am worried about them assaulting, not standing back and shooting!

Eagle

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831655.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831655.page GMT Re:Grey knights...how do you beat em?! Gk's tonight and really the only thing that scared me were purifiers.
Playing a Wych Cult, i was able to de-mech him relatively easily with concentrated dark lance fire. The problem, however, was finishing them off in assault. Apparently, Purifier's special attack isn't technically a close combat attack, therefore ignoring their 4++ - making my wyches fodder in close combat. However, they still die like marines. Concentrate firepower. Throw dice at him and make him take saves. He can only pass 66% of his armor saves. It's how you combat MEQ, which, in the end, all purifiers are. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831725.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! SS you can assault same with Terminators, Purifiers you stay away like the plague, kill the Purifiers transport and fire upon them, as Night's Blood said they still die like marines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831817.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! TWC are still a good unit as the only once you will have to look out for are halberds (terminators, ocasinaly paladin squad and purfifiers) and the I5 heroes.

TWC should do realy well against moast other things, especialy if you have an IC in there (although moast people don't I supose.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831959.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831959.page GMT Re:Grey knights...how do you beat em?! http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831981.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2831981.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?!
Niiai wrote:TWC are still a good unit as the only once you will have to look out for are halberds (terminators, ocasinaly paladin squad and purfifiers) and the I5 heroes.

TWC should do realy well against moast other things, especialy if you have an IC in there (although moast people don't I supose.)


all GK players worth their salt will have mostly Halberds.

the exception will be on Strike Squads as they are more expensive to equip that way, but i still would expect squads to be all halberds except for models with Hammers or Psycannons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2832217.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2832217.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! GK player takes. I know people on the net seem to be all about Purifers but have had a great deal of success in the about 20+ games I have played as Greyknights spamming Strike Squads and Psi-riflemen dreads.

Against that kind of shooting list you want to assault the strike squads (Only base one attack) and take out the dreads in order to deny range.

Everyone here is going the right direction in regards to fighting cc oriented GK. They are really expensive units and call fall apart if they have to take too many saves. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2838507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2838507.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?!
Overall they have a low model count, are expensive, arnt very mobile (stormravens are the exception) , are psychic power dependent, excel in close combat.

Overall there weakness is objectives, shooting, and mobility. Grey Knight lists alot of times are CC oriented. Dont get me wrong, stormravens, dreadknights with double str 8 autocannons, and psycannons are deadly, but a GK army doesnt have alot of them and you can generally range 24'.

If you play objetives try to focus fire a troop choice, and then take objectives late game.

If its kill points idk its hard.

If your shooting based stay back and shoot, I see alot of GK players that keep the infantry in the open. If you play a CC army try and get the charge lol. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2838535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2838535.page GMT Re:Grey knights...how do you beat em?! GKs are no less mobile then other mech lists now that their PAGK squads can take Rhinos and Razorbacks.

they have all the mobility that other MEQ armies have with the exception of jump pack BAs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2838619.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2838619.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! MEQ killer weapons. Their Terminators or Paladins won't have anything better than 4++ against low AP shooting.

Also, anti-psyker helps. Eldrad, Shadow in the Warp, or Psychic Hood helps counter GK psychic powers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2838764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2838764.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! AP weapons. With all the melta around paladin list will probably start to dwindle.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2843868.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2843868.page GMT Grey knights...how do you beat em?! GK also really struggles in low point games, they excel mostly in 1850+. The key for them in a competitive environment is to spam psycannons(purifiers) in rhinos and psyrifle dreads and taking advantage of fortitude to outshoot opponents at mid-range.

If you run a shooty army, your best bet is to stay away from his 24" psycannons for as long as possible and bring enough S8+ to induce high probabilities of pens on his rhinos and dreads(or else fortititude will be your down fall). If you kill their transports, GKs are just expensive marines on foot.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2844369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/368988/2844369.page GMT