<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "1500 CSM vs Orks"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net 1500 CSM vs Orks CSM (Iron Warriors) vs Orks

Opinions welcome!





LIST AMENDED DUE TO FEEDBACK. KEEP IT COMING!!




HQ:

Dp - MoN, Wings, Warptime



TROOPS:

10 marines - IoN, 2 Flamers, Rhino
10 Marines - IoN, 2 Meltas, Rhino
5 Plague Marines - 2 Flamers, Rhino
8 Berzerkers - Rhino


ELITES:

Dread - Missile Launcher, H. Flamer



HEAVY SUPPORT:

Vindicator
5 Havocs - 4 Missile Launchers
5 Havocs - 4 Missile Launchers




I'm thinking Orks will nail me in CC (never played them before) so i have tried to go for more Dakka to get the numbers down before the charge. Also went for more long range Dakka rather than AT havocs.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2812919.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2812919.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
Anyways... You're probably right to go with the Heavy Bolters and ML, since, honestly, 3 Oblits will probably be enough to take down Orky armour, unless they're running Battlewagon rush, in which case the ML can easily be repurposed, and the Chainfist and Melta will come in handy.

That Chainfist will be terrifying to Kan Walls (as will the Defiler), but if you're up against that, I'd try to pump out as many Str5 and above shots as possible with your Oblits.

You're pretty much right, most Ork swarms or Nob swarms will wreck your troops in CC, but that Demon Prince, well, ouch. I wouldn't want to face off against him even with a PK Warboss. I'd use him to hunt down any KFF meks the opponent might have, to deny the army that cover save.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813091.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813091.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
CSM have mixed weapons which isn't good; melta is anti tank flamer is anti troop so mix and match doesn't work.

Plasma pistol isn't needed on the Berzerkers, really.

Terminators I can see deep striking in and getting swamped.

Defiler is a big target and it's not very good. Doesn't know if assaulting or shooting and neither it's very good at.

Obliterators are ok.

Havocs are messed up. No one takes heavy bolters because they are rubbish. Take pure missile launchers for anti tank and anti horde.

Could be loads better. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813093.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
I only have one DP so 2 isn't an option. The plan was to move him forward behnd the rhino and then have him jump into CC with the biggest, nastiest unit/model i can find.

So change the Troops to have matching weapons. I know my opponent has a load of Boyz and some trukks. but i've never heard him mention a Mek or those Meganob things.

I think the only armour he has is Trukks but again, i'm not 100% sure.

So bearing that in mind you think it would be better to stack flamers in the CSM units?

I wanted the Termies as a nice hard hitting unit that shoudl be able to hold it's own. I coudl always swap it out for more troops or another Elites choice (Chosen or Dread). or i have a unit of dual flamer Raptors i usually use for anti-IG duties, coudl work here as well i suppose.

The Defiler is in there as it's a cheap way to get a Battlecannon in there for the pie plate (and more versatile than a Vindicator)

4 MLs would have been my choice but i only have 2 and woudl prefer not to proxy if possible.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813137.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813137.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks AP but how many shots can that Prince take? Only got 4 wounds and if does make combat I gurantee it won't have all 4 . If you do want you want to do with the Prince then he will die rapidly.

When you say Trukks how many?

Well from a tactical point of view yes. But from a list talioring point of view no because list tailoring is a bit lame.

Your Termies will end up getting swamped by Orks when they deep strike more than likely. You want Terminators to charge into the Nobz as Terminators will bring them down with attacks and power weaps while mobz of Boyz (depending on size) will swamp and kill them.

Defiler maybe more versatile but it is rubbish. It is BS3 so scatters badly. It is WS3 so doesn't hit that good. It has fleet to get in combat so this thing doesn't know if it is meant to be running into combat and wasting the battlecannon or firing the battlecannon and not smashing with those dccw (excellent for I.D'd Nobz!), though either way it is rubbish.

Proxy is the way forward if you want a decent list ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813238.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks HB are brutal.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813330.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813330.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
What would you reccomend in place fo the Defiler and Termies? I have some Vindicators i coudl take, as well as 3 of the old OOPS Obliterators that are tiny and look stupid (i tend to use them as objective markers or servitors).

To swap out the termies i have a squad of Melta Chosen or a couple of Dreads i could slot in.

I have amended the list to reflect advice so far. Thanks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813338.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks HQ unit will have wasted several turns.

Drop all your plasma weapons there of no use against Orks.
Either have Meltas to deal with the vehicles that ferry the Orks quickly to your gunline. Or have them using flamers. This also works well with the Daemon Princes Lash.

I wouldn't use Obliterators or the Defiler. The Defiler would be great against any nob squads but being your only vehicle will become a large bullseye for any lootas he may have. You can have 3 squads of 5 havocs with 4 missile launchers each for less points.

Dont use the terminators. Those 150+ points would be better spent on another 10man CSM squad.
Khorne Berzerkers are good just ensure that they are charging and not being charged. You may want to keep them close to your gunline to counter charge any Orks that break through.

Your aim is to stop the Orks tearing across the board in there trukks. Once they reach your line you will be in serious trouble.Battlewagons have to be dealt with realistically if your meltas are not in range do not waste your missile launchers on it.

Think about having 2 5 man CSM squads up in your front lines to act as a speed bump. A melta in each should prove to be a nasty surprise. These marines are dead but they should ensure that those Battlewagons and Kustom force fields dont make it to your gunline.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813430.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813430.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
Anvildude wrote:I wouldn't necessarily drop the Heavy Bolters even if you get more Missile Launcher models. At least against Orks, HB are brutal.


Frags are better. Heavy bolter could only wound 3 Orks at the most providing hit and wound all the time. Frag will cover more than 3, probably 4 maybe 5. On average heavy bolter is going to hit twice and wound twice. I'd go with missiles as handy for hordes, Ork vehicles i.e Trukks and walkers and excellent for instant deathing Nobz


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Praxiss wrote:No idea exactly what he has. I have heard him talk about having Boyz in trukks. Never heard him mentin a battlewagon but you never know.

What would you reccomend in place fo the Defiler and Termies? I have some Vindicators i coudl take, as well as 3 of the old OOPS Obliterators that are tiny and look stupid (i tend to use them as objective markers or servitors).

To swap out the termies i have a squad of Melta Chosen or a couple of Dreads i could slot in.

I have amended the list to reflect advice so far. Thanks.


Trukks, hmmm missile launchers would be very affective against those. Pop them at range and leave them stranded the other side of the board. Then drop frags on them at range before they get close and watch them run off the table .

Vindicators are awesome for large blastyness and need to get close. They work well with Rhinos and attracting attention. As much as I hate to say it I would take a single Vindicator to acompany the Rhinos and then two units of Havocs with missile launchers, total fragula!

Hmmm Chosen are cool but need a Rhino. Meltas are the bane of Battlewagons as they get +2 on the damage table (open topped & AP1) so I would consider some of those. Dreadnoughts with a missile launcher and dccw are cool. They get 4 attacks on the charge and can I.D Nobz etc and with a missile launcher can tackle vehicles or drop a frag. Keep them in front of your Rhinos as cover and if they do fire at your tanks fire a frag

Personally I would do something like this:

Chaos Lord - daemon weapon & combi flamer

Chaos Dreadnought - dreadnought close combat weapon, extra armour & missile launcher
Chaos Dreadnought - dreadnought close combat weapon, extra armour & missile launcher

5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x meltaguns
5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x meltaguns
5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x flamers
5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x flamers
8 x Khorne Berzerkers w/ Chaos Rhino - champion w/ power weapon

Vindicator
5 x Havocs w/ 4 x missile launchers
5 x Havocs w/ 4 x missile launchers

Check points because I haven't but that's a rounded force. You've got 5 Rhinos and 2 Dreadnoughts for armour saturation. You've got 10 missiles split into 4 units. You also have mix of flamers and meltas to deal with vehicles, tough infantry and hordes and finally a Chaos Lord who is a lot safer option than Prince he goes with the Berzerkers and the Champion is a backup in case the daemon weapon decides not to play ball at least them you still have a power weap at S5 ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813661.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
mercer wrote:5 x Plague Marines w/ Chaos Rhino - 2 x meltaguns


Can't have 2 special weapons in a 5 man squad.

I also dont agree with using Plague Marines against orks unless its on mass.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813730.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813730.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks .

Why don't you agree with using Plague Marines against Orks for?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813774.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
I dont agree with paying the extra for plague marines because in my experience the things that kill my marines when facing an Ork army are the power klaws.

Your plague marines in rhino and carrying meltas have to run head first at the orks to use there weaponry. Popping battlewagons etc. But any small squad of marines running at Orks will get swamped and killed. Essentially they are suicide units.

I'd either have a barebones unit to do the same job or a massive plague marine squad to tar pit them.

I'm in favour of the cheap suicide squad.

Plague marines are better suited against other marine armies imho]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813951.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2813951.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2816002.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2816002.page GMT Re:1500 CSM vs Orks AV amount up and I think the loss of two missile launchers for the gain of bolters + flamers is worth it. Possibly drop the berzerkers (waste of time to assault orks imo unless it is charge or be charged with non-PMs) for more PMs, combi-flamer/melta for the rhinos, etc.

I think trying to out-assault orks is asking to get swarmed and die. It doesn't matter if you have a 5 toughness and 2+ save when you're facing a fistful of dice. Some of those are going to get through and very few of our units have multiple wounds. Plague marines are a great unit for this list. They negate the charge bonus, they can ignore small arms/regular cc attacks (exactly what the orks have tons of), and can carry multiple special weapons in small squads. They provide lots of av12 boxes that aren't as easy to punch through as when facing a marine opponent.

If you want to go blast heavy you could spend some points on havoc launchers for the rhinos. Normally I'd say don't waste the points on them because the rhinos are going to die early, but in this case they may last long enough to get something done. That or load them up with combi-flamer/melta.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2816134.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2816134.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks PM ignore ork attacks? Are Orks quite low S then? (never played against or as them so have no idea).

Or by ignore do you mean by virtue of FNP?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2817428.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2817428.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
Ealiom wrote:Oh? Do the special troop types get an extra weapon even at 5. Need to check that out tonight.

I dont agree with paying the extra for plague marines because in my experience the things that kill my marines when facing an Ork army are the power klaws.

Your plague marines in rhino and carrying meltas have to run head first at the orks to use there weaponry. Popping battlewagons etc. But any small squad of marines running at Orks will get swamped and killed. Essentially they are suicide units.

I'd either have a barebones unit to do the same job or a massive plague marine squad to tar pit them.

I'm in favour of the cheap suicide squad.

Plague marines are better suited against other marine armies imho


Plague Marines die to power weapons anyway so doesn't matter that much and that's not a good reason for not taking them, anything without a invulnerable save will die to power klaws etc. Plague Marines are T5, feel no pain, defensive grenades and can take double specials all that is awesome.

Plague Marines don't care about getting killed, they cost hardly anything and that is the point.

I think your sentence is gobbley de [see forum posting rules] as doesn't make sense. You said you'd rather take a plain unit to do the same job - how is Plague Marines with no meltas going to pop a Battlewagon? That's not doing the same job is it? You said power klaws kill Plague Marines so how are they going to tarpit them exactly if you're so worried about Plague Marines getting bashed by a power klaw? Honestly, I'd work out what you're saying

You miss the point of Plague Marines. They are general all round awesome units. This isn't a taliored list you know.

Anvildude wrote:Thing is, Plague Marines get Defensive grenades, meaning the Boyz lose their extra attack on the charge, and the higher Toughness renders Furious Charge nigh moot.


Ealiom doesn't know the rules for Plague Marines as previously prooved

Praxiss wrote:How can PM ignore ork attacks? Are Orks quite low S then? (never played against or as them so have no idea).

Or by ignore do you mean by virtue of FNP?


I'd take no notice of Ealiom they don't appear to know what they are talking about. As for strength Orks are S3 so S4 on the charge needing 5+ to wound when charging or 6+ when locked in combat which makes Plague Marines very survivable. Only things Plague Marines fear are power klaws but that's the same case with any other model without a invulnerable save or any other power weap etc etc.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2817896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2817896.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
So, i can probably proxy some normal CSMs as Plague marines. It's a firnedly game so it'll probably be ok.


Just out of curiosity. If Orks are S3 then would they even be able to damage a T6 model (like a DP with MoN)? Or would it just be on 6's. If it is the former then a DP could be interesting/fun to take.


Also, i dont have my codex to hand (at work) so would taking a small squad of Plague marines be preferable to taking a bigger squad of normal marines with IoN? they woudl still have the T5 and 2 specials, but also more ablative wounds.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818207.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818207.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks

I can't see proxying been a problem.

Btw, dude, can you travel? I live in Cannock so not far if you ever fancied a game one time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818224.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
I know the rules for plague marines perfectly fine I was just unaware that they were allowed to take an extra weapon in a 5man squad. I should be hung drawn and quartered for that I know.

It boils down to this. When I play one of my friends, it is my Chaos vs his Orks. He hates having his army slowed by a few well placed cheap units. Again my experience is that when in cc in Orks I lose the majority of my models to the nobs power klaw not the orks themselves. Plague Marines are not going to stop that from happening.

mercer wrote:Plague Marines don't care about getting killed, they cost hardly anything and that is the point.


Not as cheap as regular CSM and those marines you send forward 'will' die. So I find it hard to justify spending the extra points on them. Its as simple as that. Plague marines or not, unless you have a large unit of them they will die in the very next turn. 'IF' they dont you have successfully tar pitted a unit that costs less in points than your own!

mercer wrote:This isn't a taliored list you know.


I'm responding to a thread labelled CSM vs Orks... Yes Plague Marines are good all rounders. I've said so much. Against other marine based armies as well as other shoot'y' armies they are awesome.

Basically it's personal taste. I said I wouldn't use Plague Marines and gave my reasons why since you asked and I got nerd spittle on me for the trouble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yes a S3 can hurt a T6 on a roll of a 6. Makes Nurgle Princes very frustrating to attack. For fun games I sometimes add Nurgles rot and counter charge him into a huge group of Orks.

He can usually kill a standard trukk full of boys if he charges them. In most cases the Orks will fail a leadership test.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818238.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
mercer wrote:Nobz are S4

I can't see proxying been a problem.

Btw, dude, can you travel? I live in Cannock so not far if you ever fancied a game one time.



Lol, thanks for the offer. I can't really travel for games as me and the wife btoh work and we hav a 2 year old kiddie. Makes finding time and opportunity for games very difficult.






Hmmm.....never used Nurgles Rot before. Could be funny to see his boyz die to a cloud of nasty flies. Lol. Ok, i will re-work the list and post back here.......


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK. The new list.

I wasn't sure on the cost of Plague marines so i have pointed them up at 30 which i know is too much to give myself some lee-way




HQ:

Dp - MoN, Wings, ugles Rot



TROOPS:

10 marines - IoN, 2 Flamers, Rhino
10 Marines - IoN, 2 Meltas, Rhino
5 Plague Marines - 2 Flamers, Rhino
8 Berzerkers - Rhino


ELITES:

Dread - Missile Launcher, H. Flamer



HEAVY SUPPORT:

Vindicator
5 Havocs - 4 Missile Launchers
5 Havocs - 4 Missile Launchers]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818287.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818287.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
Ealiom wrote:wow someones angry. Like really, take a deep breath and calm yourself. I know nerds are known to get super excited and hyperventilate when they see something they know to be wrong. Filled with self righteousness they spit and spasm, generally embaressing themselves. Dont be that guy.


Erm, yeah..

I know the rules for plague marines perfectly fine I was just unaware that they were allowed to take an extra weapon in a 5man squad. I should be hung drawn and quartered for that I know.


You obviously don't know the rules perfectly fine as you'd know they can take double specials in a squad any size so that's false statement.

It boils down to this. When I play one of my friends, it is my Chaos vs his Orks. He hates having his army slowed by a few well placed cheap units. Again my experience is that when in cc in Orks I lose the majority of my models to the nobs power klaw not the orks themselves. Plague Marines are not going to stop that from happening.


Power klaws are not the point, they kill any infantry without a invulnerable anyway so I don't understand why you're getting your knickers in a twist about Plague Marines been smashed by power klaws. You are missing the point of cheap melta instead of paying for a 10 man CSM unit to get two meltaguns. It doesn't matter if CSM or Plague Marines as the power klaw will still kill them so that's a pointless comment.

mercer wrote:Plague Marines don't care about getting killed, they cost hardly anything and that is the point.


Not as cheap as regular CSM and those marines you send forward 'will' die. So I find it hard to justify spending the extra points on them. Its as simple as that. Plague marines or not, unless you have a large unit of them they will die in the very next turn. 'IF' they dont you have successfully tar pitted a unit that costs less in points than your own!


You're not spending extra points on them. I've already explained why you take Plague Marines for in a unit of 5; double melta. A unit of 5 Plague Marines costs 135 including two meltas. They have all the extras over CSM and just as survivable as about 7 CSM on average. A unit of 10 CSM equal comparsion as you need 10 to get double meltas would be 170 points. So I'd love to know why you have a hard time justifying spending the extra on Plague Marines when they are cheaper and bring better benefits to the table. The entire point is you don't need loads of Plague Marines..

mercer wrote:This isn't a taliored list you know.


I'm responding to a thread labelled CSM vs Orks... Yes Plague Marines are good all rounders. I've said so much. Against other marine based armies as well as other shoot'y' armies they are awesome.

Basically it's personal taste. I said I wouldn't use Plague Marines and gave my reasons why since you asked and I got nerd spittle on me for the trouble.


Indeed you are and so am I but it's crapola to take tailored lists. You make a good all round list and say how to beat Orks with it. You're just saying you won't take Plague Marines due to numbers and don't understand the point of taking small units and fail to see the extra benefits they bring. Perhaps you feel insulted because I've pointed out your bad suggestions?

Praxiss wrote:
mercer wrote:Nobz are S4

I can't see proxying been a problem.

Btw, dude, can you travel? I live in Cannock so not far if you ever fancied a game one time.



Lol, thanks for the offer. I can't really travel for games as me and the wife btoh work and we hav a 2 year old kiddie. Makes finding time and opportunity for games very difficult.

Hmmm.....never used Nurgles Rot before. Could be funny to see his boyz die to a cloud of nasty flies. Lol. Ok, i will re-work the list and post back here.......


I've got two kids about the same age so I know what you mean! lol.

Nurgles rot is utter rubbish. It is S3 AP- so you need 5+ to wound Orks and then they get 6+ armour save. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818383.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
From the get go though its a nice list.

Be careful with positioning Orks have a terrifying range when pushing forward. A potential 27" charge, beware of that.

Oh and keep a close eye on that traiterous Dreadnought.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818401.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818401.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
I've never used Plague marines before so it should be fun.



@ Mercer. I can see why Rot woudl be rubbish at S3. But do you think that woudl be mitigated by the number of models it coudl hit if the DP got swamped?


Plague Marines are a lot chaper than i thought!!!!!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818617.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818617.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks . If the nearest target happens to be your tank then fire a frag

Well lets run some figures. You have 33% chance to wound with nurgles rot lets say unit of 30 Orks so that's about 10 wounded rounding up. You then have 16.5% chance to save which would equal about 8 Orks dead though put a wound on the Nob means 7 Orks dead. I'm not sure if it counts to combat resolution as it is a shooting attack but can be done in combat though. The Prince then will attack himself getting 5 attacks and probably hitting 4 of those and then wounding on all of them so another 4 Orks dead. Total Ork loss so far is 11 still 19 left. Orks attack back needing 4+ to hit probably score about 3 wounds in total and Prince will fail one of those. Nobz will then strike lets say hits 2 of those attacks and wounds on both, Prince probably won't pass those invulnerable saves. Orks lose combat take some fearless wounds, combat goes on next turn which the Prince would have died mainly thanks to the power klaw.

My opinion on the nurgles rot has slightly changed but it's still not a good power and only good against lightly armoured hordes. Warptime is a far better power. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818808.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818808.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks Lets try this one last time.

I would only use a 5man CSM squad with one melta. Barebones. 'Not' as you are assuming a 10man squad. They are going to die. I know this so would not spend excess points in them.

As I said it is there to either pop a battlewagon or to force him to disembark to assault the unit. Or to attempt to push thru in which case I can death or glory. It is very cheap and very effective at slowing him down.

This gives me more points to spend on annihilating him at range. Or beefing up those units that I counter charge with.

As for the Power Klaw. You don't understand what im saying and I really dont know how else to describe the same thing but dammit I'll try.

5man CSM cheaper than 5man PM

My CC with Orks usually swings one way or another on the rolls of the Power Klaw.
Since Plague Marines do not give me anything extra over regular CSM against a power klaw I would not like to spend the extra points on plague marines.

Both of those squads above are dead. 5man CSM with one melta and 5man PM with 2 melta. Both are dead. So why spend more slowing the enemy down when the cheaper option does the job good enough?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818840.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818840.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
Plague Marines are a better troop unit plain and simple and you get double meltas. Only the power klaw you seem obssessed with is a problem for them, the normal attacks will need 5+/6+ to wound and they get feel no pain making them more surviable as I have already said.

The point isn't to slow the enemy down at all. You don't even get out your tank not sure why you're doing that. The point is Plague Marines are better, more survivable and have better chances of popping that Battlewagon. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818861.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818861.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks CSM- melta gun, champ, combi melta
or 105 points for flamers. If you feel like "splurging" add IoCG for leadership... still cheaper than the plagues. Of course you lose out on t5 AND fnp AND defensive grenades AND straight up fearless... you do save 15-25 points, which isn't much if you think about it, but I guess it could add up?

Thats really the only chaos marine set up that can compete with 5 plagues with 2 meltas. Yes 5 chaos marines with 1 melta is cheaper than 5 plague marines with 2 meltas, but at the end of the day you really want the 2 melta shots- for a higher chance of doing their job and wrecking a tank.

EDIT: I also really don't understand all this squad will be suiciding nonsense... in objective games you certainly aren't going to suicide all of your troops (at least if you like winning), and having t5 fnp units holding your objectives is great...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818903.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818903.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
That lone unit is often far far ahead of my army the longer I can keep those Orks away from me the better.

In my CSM squad I wouldn't even have a champ or IoCG 85pts... Spreaded out in a line they force the orks to deal with them rather than just speeding ahead. An extra melta would be nice but even if it fails they will have to either jump out and assault. Go around me. Or attempt ramming me

Out of curiosity how would you deal with a trukk/BW heavy ork army speeding towards your army? I'd like to try something new.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2818961.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
Praxiss wrote:List for a friendly game, 1500 points, CSM (Iron Warriors) vs Orks

Opinions welcome!






HQ:

DP - Wings, MoN, Warptime



TROOPS:

10 CSM - IoCG, Flamer, Flamer, Rhino
10 CSM - IoCG, Melta, Melta, Rhino
8 Berzerkers - Champ, P. weapon, Rhino



ELITES:

5 Terminators - Chainfist, Reaper, H.Flamer, IoCG



HEAVY SUPPORT:

Defiler - Extra DCCW
3 Obliterators
5 Havocs - 4 Missile Launchers


There's too much AT in this list. Swap that second CSM unit for a clone of the first one. Meltas are completely worthless against Orks.

Terminators... NO. Try this:
x5 Terminators, MOK
Champion with Heavy Flamer
x4 Lightning Claws
(The Champion upgrade compensates for his lack of 4th attack)

Heavy Support should be almost all defilers, since orks can't hurt them in assault, but a missile unit is great too, so keep that.

I'm not sure what kind of orks you're going against, but unless you're up against battlewagons, deff dreads and 2+ save nobs, I see no justification in using melta guns. I also don't understand why you're using champions... Nothing says you have to, and they really don't contribute to the overall success of the assault.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2819044.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2819044.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks There's a lot of ugliness going on between certain posters that needs to stop. We're here to discuss tactics and strategy like adults, not squabble like children. If someone posts something you disagree with, disagree with it, but don't insult or condescend to the person.

Praxiss wrote:
I wasn't sure on the cost of Plague marines so i have pointed them up at 30 which i know is too much to give myself some lee-way

Take off 7 points per PM.
Praxiss wrote:
Dp - MoN, Wings, ugles Rot

I'd skip the DP entirely but it is the proper mark and power if you're going to try to take down lots of orks.
Praxiss wrote:
10 marines - IoN, 2 Flamers, Rhino
10 Marines - IoN, 2 Meltas, Rhino
5 Plague Marines - 2 Flamers, Rhino
8 Berzerkers - Rhino

Nothing I'd change here that we haven't already talked about. Might consider combi-weapons on the rhinos if you have a few points left over you can't find a home for.
Praxiss wrote:
Dread - Missile Launcher, H. Flamer

If you're going to take them though this is the way to do it. Personally think spending the points elsewhere would give you a bigger benefit and still allow you to keep your AV amounts up.
Praxiss wrote:
Vindicator
5 Havocs - 4 Missile Launchers
5 Havocs - 4 Missile Launchers

Love it, but I'd swap at least some of those MLs for ACs. Just my personal belief though. From my calcs light vehicles fall faster to ACs. You'll still have plenty of missile shots for templates while giving yourself a bit more versatility. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2820043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2820043.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2820073.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2820073.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
learn from this, people.

for what it's worth, i don't have a problem with defilers, and i think they're pretty well tailored to beating up orcs. things that might make them a negative against other armies are good against orcs.

they're expensive models is the only problem and it's best to spam them if you're going to use them. bs3 doesn't matter much with template, and if your opponent is running a KFF battlewagon wall you're pretty much assured to scatter into something. BS3 doesn't matter much for the reaper AC, either, as it's twin linked, and doesn't matter for the HF, either. two or three battlecannons can demolish any loota squads in a turn, and then pin them for good measure. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2821336.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2821336.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
hemingway wrote:the moral of this thread is that different people like different units.

learn from this, people.

for what it's worth, i don't have a problem with defilers, and i think they're pretty well tailored to beating up orcs. things that might make them a negative against other armies are good against orcs.

they're expensive models is the only problem and it's best to spam them if you're going to use them. bs3 doesn't matter much with template, and if your opponent is running a KFF battlewagon wall you're pretty much assured to scatter into something. BS3 doesn't matter much for the reaper AC, either, as it's twin linked, and doesn't matter for the HF, either. two or three battlecannons can demolish any loota squads in a turn, and then pin them for good measure.


Well said. I'd also add that their av12 armor that is usually a laughing stock for such an expensive vehicle is a lot harder to penetrate for some of these ork armies as well. Especially if they're kept at a distance. Great points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2821908.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2821908.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks

I was thining about ACs as well as i quite like them, and with Ork armour values and saves being low they actually become a good multi-role gun against that army.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2822364.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2822364.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks
akaean wrote:

Thats really the only chaos marine set up that can compete with 5 plagues with 2 meltas. Yes 5 chaos marines with 1 melta is cheaper than 5 plague marines with 2 meltas, but at the end of the day you really want the 2 melta shots- for a higher chance of doing their job and wrecking a tank.

EDIT: I also really don't understand all this squad will be suiciding nonsense... in objective games you certainly aren't going to suicide all of your troops (at least if you like winning), and having t5 fnp units holding your objectives is great...


Those are my points entirely, anyway..

List wise why have Plague Marines got flamers? They'll probably go last in assault and die as flamers are for assaulting units. Plague Marines are better at shooting and plasma guns more than anything thanks to feel no pain


Automatically Appended Next Post:
hemingway wrote:
they're expensive models is the only problem and it's best to spam them if you're going to use them. bs3 doesn't matter much with template, and if your opponent is running a KFF battlewagon wall you're pretty much assured to scatter into something. BS3 doesn't matter much for the reaper AC, either, as it's twin linked, and doesn't matter for the HF, either. two or three battlecannons can demolish any loota squads in a turn, and then pin them for good measure.


Well my point with Defilers is they aren't really that good at shooting or combat. BS3 doesn't affect a template that much over BS4 but why it firing at Battlewagons which most likely will have the front facing? If you're shooting the reaper cannon than you're not firing the battlecannon. If you're firing the heavy flamer means you're going to be assaulting (which the Defiler isn't that good at) and you will be locked in combat (or destroyed) not firing that battlecannon.

There's the point of difference of opinion but there is also the point of somethings just been plain rubbish and that is the Defiler ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2822913.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2822913.page GMT 1500 CSM vs Orks


he had a sqaud of 3 Kans, 3 Trukks, 3 DeffKoptas, 3 Bikers, a squad of burnas, 1 of Lootas, 1 of Nobs and 3 squads of Boyz, one of which was 30 strong.

My Missile launcher havocs woefully underperformed. Teh whoel game they only managed to kill 8 Boyz total. My Dread killed 2 boys and a single Nob before being charged and Powerklawed apart.

his Koptas used ther scout a TB move to get a turn 1 charge into the rear of my Vindicator and took out the cannon before it had a chance to fire.

We ended up rollgin for an annihilation mission whihc left my small plague marine squad with nothgin to do, they roleld aroudn in their rhino immobilizing Kand which then rolled to repair themselves the followign turn!!

i did end up killing off all the Trukks and 2 squads of Boyz and the bikers by turn 3. But then he got with WAAAGH range and charged in the 30 strong Boyz, the nobs and the Burnas and kans. By Turn 5 all i had left was an immobilzed Rhino and my Havocs.

My DP preformed pretty well, single handedly killign off a full squad of Boyz after their trukk died and weathering 2 turns of assault from the 30 boyz mob and killiing off about 10 of them untill eventually sheer weight of number took him down.

The missile launcher really let me down. A big part fo this was due to the fact that he didn't bunch up his orks, but had them all abotu an inch apart, so each blast template coudl only hit 2 or 3 models a pop. Annoying.

Best performing weapon of the game?.......Flamers. My Rhino moved 6"and fired a combi flamer and 2 flamers from the firing ports and roasted a 10 strong Boyz squad in one go. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2831956.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/369424/2831956.page GMT