starsdawn wrote:Hmm, you think one can get away with 20 tac marines in a 1850 list? Or would that be too hard? That saves you 200+ to purchase other spammable stuff, preferably ones that will attract fire.

In general, any army wants about 6 scoring units at the 2000 point level.

SOFDC wrote:

In general, any army wants about 6 scoring units at the 2000 point level.

What? If by 6 scoring units, in this case, you mean "3 combat squadding troop selections" I will give you this one. If however, you mean "Fill up all 6 FOC slots with space marine troops!" I very much want to see a list that isn't completely laughable made along these lines.

Everyone throws a fit when a 10 man tactical squad with an MM gun is holding an objective in cover - thats the most reislient MM gun platform you will see.

Never get out of thy transport. That's why a MM Tac squad works: They're sitting in a Rhino shooting the MM out of the hatch as a mobile bunker.

SOFDC wrote:I may have a unique perspective playing/having played GK, a bit of BT, and Ultramarines, but if you are expecting tacticals to do any real heavy lifting against an opponent who actually knows the codex you will wind up disappointed and defeated.

SOFDC wrote:

Everyone throws a fit when a 10 man tactical squad with an MM gun is holding an objective in cover - thats the most reislient MM gun platform you will see.

It might just be me, but I have never found a 170+ point, foot based, CC-able, snipe-able multimelta very threatening. It might be durable to bolter fire...as durable as any 10 MEQ bodies in cover will be.

It's not that Tac marines are really weak, its just that other troop choices are more attractive in paper: at least to the weaker players who cannot make Tac marines work =P

Yes, actually it IS that tac marines are really weak. That they aren't so absolutely worthless that the bolters they carry fire happiness and rainbows is irrelevant. Compared to SW, BA, BT, GK, and even Chaos, codex power armored bodies suck. Every single contemporary will A: Fight harder B: Shoot better (At some range band or another, usually in the 12 inch band, granted.) C: Take more punishment or D: Pick multiple at random.

Thing with using tactical marines to hold points, hold the line, etc. is the minor detail of actually forcing the enemy back. Tactical marines do not, alone, do this. I will grant you that they will buy time to maneuver more force into the fight, but they simply do not have the ability to do what the other power armor troops do on their own. If you get a tac squad isolated by a remotely similar sized/costed grey hunter pack, or BA assault squad (Even without the requisite apothecary), MoAnything chaos, GK, or BT squad, then you you will be shot. Then you will be charged. Then you will either be mauled and thrown off the objective with a speed that would make most bartenders jealous, or you will desperately try to combat tactics out, hopefully falling back far enough to regroup yet also not going off-board.

This is not hard math. When the competition has double/triple your CC attacks, ignores your armor saves in CC (Or range!), has an almost guaranteed charge via jump packs, and so on...and is costed comparable to yours, the odds are not in your favor. While I admit that tactical marines CAN buy you valuable time to get yourself in an advantageous strategic position, what do you think the other player is doing? Rolling his face on his codex, thinking it works like a WOW keyboard?

Your Greyhunters will do gak If I assault them with my gakky Tac marines because I have a PFist and yours dont.

SOFDC wrote:

Your Greyhunters will do gak If I assault them with my gakky Tac marines because I have a PFist and yours dont.

By the time you buy a powerfist on a tac squad, the GH pack has both its special weapons, a wolf standard and a powerfist or power weapon of its own. Why exactly would I not take a power weapon or power fist? I run PFs on my tac squads and I would not go without them on a squad that cannot combat tactics away from something like a dread. What exactly are you trying to prove here? One extra powerfist attack advantage towards the codex marines does not equalize the wolf standard and counter charge.

That's where your analysis is wrong because in a real game, troops rarely take on another guy's troops. Because you never fight a fair fight in 40k. You will always use what they are good against at. Ofcourse its bogus to outshoot Greyhunters or outassault Assault Marines with your tacs, and this is why a smart C:SM player will never do this.

Tactical marines do not, alone, do this. I will grant you that they will buy time to maneuver more force into the fight, but they simply do not have the ability to do what the other power armor troops do on their own.

Sounds real similar don't it? You're halfway to my point already. Here is the other half: The guy NOT playing codex marines has a lot more leeway in where he directs his support. If I believe my unit A can beat your unit, I don't absolutely need to send B, C and D in. They can go elsewhere, break other things, and stretch your forces thin. I could, of course...but I don't absolutely need to, and if my unit A can also score that objective after driving you off it, so much the better. It makes for an immediate need to pay attention to that squad with more support as the turns go on. I get to have the option where I -can- force a troop vs. troop fight and saddle my codex opponent with the options of a very good chance of losing the squad, or directing assistance to the fight and allowing me less resistance somewhere else.

Question is will you bring your Landraider near my MM Rhino? Will you risk it? What if I Im fielding a Vulkan army, are you really going to risk a 450 point unit to a 200 pt unit with an MM?

Depends. Do I need to? It's a land raider. I have a range advantage. I also have a CC threat range almost as long as the range on that multimelta to begin with. If the fire from the land raider coming in does not at least shake or stun the rhino that it is in, the thunder/daemon hammer(s) that are going to come out shrieking when the ramp drops will. Not going to be hard to get DT results and convert the twin linked multimelta into a twin linked paperweight. If all that is blocking my path is a single MM tac squad in a rhino, then yes. I will happily charge it with my LR+Terminators. Luckily, a GH unit is more than up to the task, while the LR trundles off to blow up something more important!

If Tac marines suck so much compared to other codices' Troop choice, does that mean we are not going to take them?

SOFDC wrote:

If Tac marines suck so much compared to other codices' Troop choice, does that mean we are not going to take them?

Unless you like using scouts as your general purpose infantry, or have some way to get around the 2 troop requirement for a legal army? What kind of question is this?

Of course you are going to take your two requisite choices. Because as bad as they are, tacticals are the best of your bad options most of the time. In a huge point game, you might even skip out of some of the more powerful units in the codex to get a third choice for redundancy. That is a far cry from buying a unit because it is an effective, efficient choice.

If you could take BA assault squads as your troops, would you ever again look at tacticals? No. I am willing to bet most would not. Grey hunters? I think you would be hard pressed to find tactical squads in an army after that, were it possible.

SOFDC wrote:Yea....the sheer size of the game puts it into territory where I cannot say I would take much seriously.

Betcha 25 TH/SS terminators make a better cordon though. Same cost.

notabot187 wrote:As little as possible in this instance means how few scoring models are you willing to risk playing with. At 1500-2000, 20-30 power armor guys seems to be what you need to score at least 1 objective. 10 won't get the job done.

Compare that to other troops, where you often see way more troops than needed to score, because on their own the troops have a larger value than plugging holes and scoring.

Fibonacci wrote:Just to get back on topic with C:SM ...
I generally take 3, 10 man squads and maybe a 4th at 2000 points. Usually 2 X PM on foot and 1 KB in a LR; the 4th will always be a base cost 10 man tac with a champion; but this is mostly a delivery tool for the Greater Demon.

starsdawn wrote:Let's admit it: the troop choices in the C:SM codex are one of the lows of the entire codex..