Valkyrie wrote:The only reason I would accept it en mass, is if my opponent was considering a new army and wanted to play-test it first before they bought anything. Otherwise, I'd allow the occational proxy such as a Flamer in place of a Meltagun, or a Librarian's left his Jump Pack at home, but anything else I find annoying.

darkPrince010 wrote:, the underlying gameplay has not changed.

darkPrince010 wrote:Lol. I know this has been rehashed, but I'll try (and probably fail) to set it apart from the masses:

The question is more of why proxies are or are not acceptable?

My personal opinion (If you couldn't guess it already) is as follows: The chess analogy.
Does playing chess require both players have a set of precious-metal pieces, or should both sets match or complement each other?

I understand people dislike playing against an army based on poor visual appearance (The gakky house in the neighborhood devalues the nearby houses theory), but I guess I see that (imo only) as being upset someone is playing against your solid-gold chess set with a set of chess shot-glasses or plastic pieces. While they may visually be different or clashing, the underlying gameplay has not changed.

I completely agree that an important aspect of Warhammer is the appearance of the models and armies, especially when set against each other in a tournament setting with both armies being visually appealing. But does or should that take precedence over the actual game itself? Should a game that can be played completely by the rules without issues be disallowed simply because of it's appearance?

darkPrince010 wrote:The question is more of why proxies are or are not acceptable?

-Loki- wrote:It should also be noted that, in 2nd edition 40k, GW put in cardboard cutout dreadnoughts for use in the STARTER SET.

-Loki- wrote:It should also be noted that, in 2nd edition 40k, GW put in cardboard cutout dreadnoughts for use in the game.

darkPrince010 wrote:I completely agree that an important aspect of Warhammer is the appearance of the models and armies, especially when set against each other in a tournament setting with both armies being visually appealing. But does or should that take precedence over the actual game itself? Should a game that can be played completely by the rules without issues be disallowed simply because of it's appearance?

remilia_scarlet wrote:I think if it's something like using cold ones for fiends of slaanesh, or using ushtabi as daemon princes in 40k, if that's going to be a problem, maybe you should quit playing. Do you know how much a unit of 6 fiends cost in USD? In all actuality, as long as the bases are legal, and upgrades are shown, it's ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I made a librarian out of bits, and painted it to distinguish it as a librarian, and I'll be damned if I'm not allowed to play it because some neckbeard rule lawyer doesn't like that I don't want to spend the money to replace a broken model. Not everyone has a gak ton of cash to pay for models, and it's made by GW, and has all the weapons appearing.

alphaecho wrote:Not wanting to appear argumentative but what you have created, taking time, effort, ingenuity and thought is a Librarian model not a proxy. If you tried to use a Scout as a Librarian, that could cause some opponents to find fault.

remilia_scarlet wrote: I took it to my LGS earlier yesterday, and this neckbeard raised hell over it, since he said it was a champion, and not a librarian.

Ouze wrote:

remilia_scarlet wrote: I took it to my LGS earlier yesterday, and this neckbeard raised hell over it, since he said it was a champion, and not a librarian.

You should be thankful he caused an issue over a converted librarian. Right off the bat, before you were hours into it, you knew he was a jerk, and you were then free to not waste your time on him and play with someone else.

I say, if someone is going to be an asshat, better for them to do it as soon as possible, ideally before I even open my case.

remilia_scarlet wrote:I think if it's something like using cold ones for fiends of slaanesh, or using ushtabi as daemon princes in 40k, if that's going to be a problem, maybe you should quit playing. Do you know how much a unit of 6 fiends cost in USD? In all actuality, as long as the bases are legal, and upgrades are shown, it's ok.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I made a librarian out of bits, and painted it to distinguish it as a librarian, and I'll be damned if I'm not allowed to play it because some neckbeard rule lawyer doesn't like that I don't want to spend the money to replace a broken model. Not everyone has a gak ton of cash to pay for models, and it's made by GW, and has all the weapons appearing.

Eilif wrote:Just to add 2 examples of my own of what I consider very good proxies that are a permanent part of my army.

Standard bearer and Chaplain. Both are Spacelords figures that have been converted with backpacks and other bits. A few years back I actually got some positive feedback from GW Chicago Bunker redshirts on these guys.



The main point being that it isn't going to be hard for my opponent to figure out what these are.

ToI wrote:The problem is that these aren't really proxies by defnition, they are conversions. The guy on the left is obviously the standard bearer as he has the banner pole, and the guy on the right is the chaplain, the crozius that he is holding, plus the way you painted him makes him recognizable. A proxy is something like the "this flamer represents a plasma gun" or somesuch. Proxies are fine when testing and playing around testing before you drop the money on stuff, but when getting into campaigns and events you need to understand that people are going to expect proper representations of the models and their gear.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

ToI wrote:The problem is that these aren't really proxies by defnition, they are conversions. The guy on the left is obviously the standard bearer as he has the banner pole, and the guy on the right is the chaplain, the crozius that he is holding, plus the way you painted him makes him recognizable. A proxy is something like the "this flamer represents a plasma gun" or somesuch. Proxies are fine when testing and playing around testing before you drop the money on stuff, but when getting into campaigns and events you need to understand that people are going to expect proper representations of the models and their gear.

But who is to say what a proper representation of a flamer looks like? I don't like the idea of having something obviously confusing like using a plasma gun model as a flamer, that's just lazy and misleading, but other stuff is fine I think. It doesn't matter if it looks nothing like a flamer, just avoid it looking a lot like something else.

Howard A Treesong wrote:But who is to say what a proper representation of a flamer looks like? I don't like the idea of having something obviously confusing like using a plasma gun model as a flamer, that's just lazy and misleading, but other stuff is fine I think. It doesn't matter if it looks nothing like a flamer, just avoid it looking a lot like something else.

ToI wrote:The problem is that these aren't really proxies by defnition, they are conversions. The guy on the left is obviously the standard bearer as he has the banner pole, and the guy on the right is the chaplain, the crozius that he is holding, plus the way you painted him makes him recognizable..

kronk wrote:*Sets watch*

*Copy/Paste from last time.*

If someone is trying about a unit or army before they buy it (and they're a friend of mine), proxy is fine. But that allowance runs out for me quick. REALLY quick. I spend a lot of time and money on my hobby. Matching my painted Black Templar army up against your coke bottle drop pods isn't going to work.

DarknessEternal wrote:A proxy of anything with anything is acceptable if it means actually playing a game. I can stare at my own miniatures when I'm alone.

darkPrince010 wrote:
1. An IG Guardsman to proxy for a Tac SM
2. A plastic army man to substitute for an IG Guardsman
3. dreadnaught for a killa can be un/acceptable
4. What about a Guardsman for a Chapter Master
5. would an army man equipped with similar-looking equipment and painted to a high standard be an acceptable IG guardsman substitute?
6. What about an unpainted toy fireman or cowboy model?

darkPrince010 wrote:Interesting replies. I'm glad this is turning out to be a good discussion topic (As I had hoped... *tents fingers*).

So now, another question along this line of inquiry:
Do you prefer if someone proxies using another GW model at the cost of visual dissonance (An IG Guardsman to proxy for a Tac SM for example), or would you rather the proxy is more visually similar to the model it's proxying, even if not GW (A plastic army man to substitute for an IG Guardsman)?

For GW-only people, how dissimilar of a model would you allow for a proxy? (ie, would a dreadnaught for a killa can be un/acceptable? What about a Guardsman for a Chapter Master?)

For similar-looking people, again how dissimilar of a model would you allow? (ie, would an army man equipped with similar-looking equipment and painted to a high standard be an acceptable IG guardsman substitute? What about an unpainted toy fireman or cowboy model?)

(Note: All of the questions assume models are to proper scale/height and body proportions to avoid TLOS issues, and are mounted on proper-size GW bases)

This time I'm not trying to say anyone is right or wrong (as my first few posts may have come across sounding like that). I'm just curious to hear your further thoughts on this concept.

darkPrince010 wrote:
1. An IG Guardsman to proxy for a Tac SM
2. A plastic army man to substitute for an IG Guardsman
3. dreadnaught for a killa can be un/acceptable
4. What about a Guardsman for a Chapter Master
5. would an army man equipped with similar-looking equipment and painted to a high standard be an acceptable IG guardsman substitute?
6. What about an unpainted toy fireman or cowboy model?

kronk wrote:*Sets watch*

*Copy/Paste from last time.*

If someone is trying about a unit or army before they buy it (and they're a friend of mine), proxy is fine. But that allowance runs out for me quick. REALLY quick. I spend a lot of time and money on my hobby. Matching my painted Black Templar army up against your coke bottle drop pods isn't going to work.

DarknessEternal wrote:The horses are very high in this neck of the internets.

remilia_scarlet wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:The horses are very high in this neck of the internets.

It seems that way, I do not claim to be amongst the unwashed masses of self-proclaimed 40k experts, and I'm not 100% knowledgeable of all the rulings for every single thing, and I have no problem with proxies within reason, I myself have used cold ones as fiends of slaanesh, I've used flamers for herald of tzeentch. Like I said in the paint thread earlier, if you don't like it, play yugioh, or something like it, where it won't be an issue.

mikhaila wrote:
The 'go away if you don't like it' arguement is pretty lame, as either side of the coin can use it equally. Does seem to be a favorite of yours though.

mikhaila wrote:

darkPrince010 wrote: *snip*

A toy fireman? At this point my 'further thoughts' are that I think your just trolling.

darkPrince010 wrote:@Ellif: The main reason I'm using "Army Men" as my example is because they are a clear "toy" and non-traditional-wargaming model, yet (in some cases) are appropriate scale and rough appearance. I just thought that analogy would work better than saying using Warzone, Mantic, PP, or Reaper figurines.

remilia_scarlet wrote:

mikhaila wrote:
The 'go away if you don't like it' arguement is pretty lame, as either side of the coin can use it equally. Does seem to be a favorite of yours though.

Well, it seems that all the neckbeards have a problem with proxying, if you don't like it, either put up with it, or play another game, it's that simple. I mean, as long as the models could pass for what they proxy, it shouldn't be problem, not all of us can go buy all the parts to our armies at once, so what harm is using assault marines without backpacks as berzerkers? A lot of people were doing that when the blood angels codex came out, using the berzerkers as assault marines. I understand that using a mr potato-head as a drop pod is ridiculous, but using one GW model to proxy another? Again, I do not claim to be a 40k expert, but, does that make me a bad gamer because I'm leniant with my opponent?

darkPrince010 wrote:
I just feel that, while not all 28mm non-GW figurines are "toys," many 28mm scale "toys" can be used easily in 28mm wargames without feeling too out of place.

Anvildude wrote:I would actually love to see someone get a pack of 28mm toy army men and paint them all up, basing and all, and have everyone ask them where they got the models.

darkPrince010 wrote:

Anvildude wrote:I would actually love to see someone get a pack of 28mm toy army men and paint them all up, basing and all, and have everyone ask them where they got the models.

I've actually got this in the mail. They're 15/16" tall, so they're a bit short, but I'm going to figure out some way to raise them up a smidge. I'm going to use them as IG proxies for an IG footslogger horde, but I obviously didn't want to shell out $600 for 200ish guardsmen for a spur-of-the-moment idea. After I figure out a decent list, I plan on getting the Warzone bags to make sure they're fully 28mm and well-detailed, but I may keep the army-men for conscript horde armies in the future

@Mikhaila: Nothing says plastic army men, dragons, and other "toys" are limited to being just that...



It's made from a Star Wars dewback, but if my opponent showed up with that in tow, I'd allow it in a heartbeat, despite it being made from "a toy."

Anvildude wrote:I would actually love to see someone get a pack of 28mm toy army men and paint them all up, basing and all, and have everyone ask them where they got the models.

mikhaila wrote: I think the problem here is context. If you're playing in your garage, I could care less what you use. When you go into a store and play a pickup game, then yes, the other guys opinion is going to count, and if your using crappy proxies when he's got the correct models, some people will give you a hard time. In a tournament, proxies are just out.

remilia_scarlet wrote: I certainly hope nobody is just plaing a "pick up" game. As for proxies, brent from http://www.strictlyaverage.blogspot.com uses cold ones as fiends of slaanesh, they're on the right sized bases, and he took it to 'ard boyz. Problem?

Nope. As long as brent doesn't show up at my shop with them, no problem.)

Why you hope no one plays pick up games is beyond me. You never go into a store or club and look for a new opponent?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248263.page GMT

mikhaila wrote:

remilia_scarlet wrote: I certainly hope nobody is just plaing a "pick up" game. As for proxies, brent from http://www.strictlyaverage.blogspot.com uses cold ones as fiends of slaanesh, they're on the right sized bases, and he took it to 'ard boyz. Problem?

Nope. As long as brent doesn't show up at my shop with them, no problem.)

Why you hope no one plays pick up games is beyond me. You never go into a store or club and look for a new opponent?

A pick-up game, as in, you buy it, build it in-store, and play it unpainted,
And, but not always proxy all the things that take time to build.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248277.page GMT MM?? That's not a Pick-up game. A pick-up game is when you aren't planning to face anybody in particular, aren't even specifically planning on playing at all, but find someone with an army who's not doing anything, and go "Hey, wanna play?" he or she goes "Sure. How many Points?" you agree on a value, and play a game right then, right there, with no forethought or planning beyond maybe a half-hour to tweak army lists.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248319.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248319.page GMT

Anvildude wrote:MM?? That's not a Pick-up game. A pick-up game is when you aren't planning to face anybody in particular, aren't even specifically planning on playing at all, but find someone with an army who's not doing anything, and go "Hey, wanna play?" he or she goes "Sure. How many Points?" you agree on a value, and play a game right then, right there, with no forethought or planning beyond maybe a half-hour to tweak army lists.

What he said. We've got guys in my store all weekend long doing pick up games against each other.

Never heard of the other version before. Sounds expensive as hell, buying and building a whole army? Has someone ran a tournament or event like this? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248328.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248328.page GMT

Anvildude wrote:MM?? That's not a Pick-up game. A pick-up game is when you aren't planning to face anybody in particular, aren't even specifically planning on playing at all, but find someone with an army who's not doing anything, and go "Hey, wanna play?" he or she goes "Sure. How many Points?" you agree on a value, and play a game right then, right there, with no forethought or planning beyond maybe a half-hour to tweak army lists.

Oh, I see then, makes sense. Like I said, I'm not an expert, thanks for pointing that out, if what I said isn't a pick-up game, what do you call it then?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248330.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248330.page GMT

mikhaila wrote:Can I play with a well crafted conversion that started as a toy and fits the theme of my army? Sure. And in this specific example, most players would agree that's a great model, and not mind using it in a pickup game. The size alone though would keep people from letting you use it in a tournament.

Can I play with toys instead of Warhammer figures? No, unless we're talking about your mom's basement or your buddy Chuckies bedroom.

Ah. Aha.

I think I see the confusion in our arguement. My opinion is toys properly converted should be mostly acceptable as proxy models for counts-as, not slapping a transformer on the table and calling a dreadnaught. Unfortunately I don't think I made that bit clear in my opinions. My bad

I agree that an unconverted, unpainted, unchanged toy will look like crap 90% of the time and be annoying to play against in a non-pick-up game if you allow it to play at all. However, with a degree of conversion (depending on the original model in question) and a paint job (This makes a surprising amount of difference), I think there are hundreds if not thousands of "toys" out there that could easily be tabletop/tournament quality models.

@Eilif: I suspect it may be a smidge of a pipedream. The closest I've found have been these guys: http://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Military-Playset-Figures-Vehicles/dp/B000L7MHDK
They're the .87" tall guys, so about a head shorter then a regualr guardsman. I'm actually surprised there isn't some chinese toy company making 28mm army-men quality figures, like basic army men, space soldiers, knights, monsters, etc, since it seems they could make a decent amount of extra cash from people getting them specifically for proxying/conversions. Plus, it wouldn't impact the actual toy sellability since most army men are either 3/4" tall or 2" tall, making them somewhere in the middle of currently available products.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248331.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248331.page GMT

mikhaila wrote:
What he said. We've got guys in my store all weekend long doing pick up games against each other.

Never heard of the other version before. Sounds expensive as hell, buying and building a whole army? Has someone ran a tournament or event like this?

I don't even want to know if there's events, but, a lot of airmen from the nearby base do that, even though it's not advised. If you have the model, just build it when you get home. "-.-]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248337.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248337.page GMT

darkPrince010 wrote:

mikhaila wrote:Can I play with a well crafted conversion that started as a toy and fits the theme of my army? Sure. And in this specific example, most players would agree that's a great model, and not mind using it in a pickup game. The size alone though would keep people from letting you use it in a tournament.

Can I play with toys instead of Warhammer figures? No, unless we're talking about your mom's basement or your buddy Chuckies bedroom.

Ah. Aha.

I think I see the confusion in our arguement. My opinion is toys properly converted should be mostly acceptable as proxy models for counts-as, not slapping a transformer on the table and calling a dreadnaught. Unfortunately I don't think I made that bit clear in my opinions. My bad

I agree that an unconverted, unpainted, unchanged toy will look like crap 90% of the time and be annoying to play against in a non-pick-up game if you allow it to play at all. However, with a degree of conversion (depending on the original model in question) and a paint job (This makes a surprising amount of difference), I think there are hundreds if not thousands of "toys" out there that could easily be tabletop/tournament quality models.

Easy enough, and sorry for the misunderstanding. I agree that a lot of stuff can be used in conversions for GW models, and painted up nicely. I've certainly gone trolling through toy stores for project ideas before. This is part of our display from GD Chicago this year. The fallen titans head started life as an Ironman mask from Toys R US and the arm is from some horror prop company selling latex zombie parts.




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remilia_scarlet wrote:I don't even want to know if there's events, but, a lot of airmen from the nearby base do that, even though it's not advised. If you have the model, just build it when you get home. "-.-

A lot of guys build their models at the shop the day they buy them. We have a large table set up friday nights and most of the day saturday just so folks can do that. We supply tools, glue, and paints. Many people will do a tricky kit in the store so that if they need some help with pinning or getting it together they have the assistance handy. Quite a few models get put together and go right into games after the morning modeling class. Other folks like to get it all done first, and many people don't like to play with anything but painted models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248374.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248374.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248391.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248568.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248568.page GMT

mikhaila wrote:
A lot of guys build their models at the shop the day they buy them. We have a large table set up friday nights and most of the day saturday just so folks can do that. We supply tools, glue, and paints. Many people will do a tricky kit in the store so that if they need some help with pinning or getting it together they have the assistance handy. Quite a few models get put together and go right into games after the morning modeling class. Other folks like to get it all done first, and many people don't like to play with anything but painted models.

That's all fine and good, because you provide the allotted space in the shop, as well as tools, and helping with pinning. The shops here don't do that, at least not anywhere near the time allotted for us to play. I have no problem with unpainted models, I just don't like the tear, not cut off the sprue, and hastily glue with plastic glue models. I've had opponent's eldar wraithlords fall over and damage my models because they were hastily assembled and weren't pinned.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248569.page GMT WIP



I think it's a fair do. I don't like using named characters all the time as its a bit cliche. (eg when Dante turns up in every 1000pt engagement!) so I like to use 'refluffed' versions of characters]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248664.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248664.page GMT BP, Iron Halo, etc. I would have no problem playing against him, unpainted even.

As long as you're not using three of him all being played as different characters... As long as you stick to WYSIWYG, everything should be fine in terms of friendly games.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248777.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248777.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248886.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248886.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248922.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248922.page GMT

Sam__theRelentless wrote:Dice Zombies?

The art of using dice as Zombie Proxies for Vampire Counts Zombies when you run out of Zombie Models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248941.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3248941.page GMT

darkPrince010 wrote:[I think I see the confusion in our arguement. My opinion is toys properly converted should be mostly acceptable as proxy models for counts-as, not slapping a transformer on the table and calling a dreadnaught. Unfortunately I don't think I made that bit clear in my opinions...

@Eilif: I suspect it may be a smidge of a pipedream. The closest I've found have been these guys: http://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Military-Playset-Figures-Vehicles/dp/B000L7MHDK
They're the .87" tall guys, so about a head shorter then a regualr guardsman.

Yep, I think properly converted and painted toys are great. Here's a Fisher price toy that's now a truck for Wastelands along with two structures made from toy buildings.


As for the army men, I've bought those before. Those are actually aproximately 1/72 scale figures. They are about 20mm or less. and are sometimes in correctly called 25mm by toy soldier sellers. On the table they are really, really small -not even remotely compatible- next to GW figures which averate 28-32mm (sole to eye, the standard measurment for "mm" model scales).

Still I share your confusion at why there are so many sizes of toy solders, but not 28mm.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3249058.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3249058.page GMT LoS to your opponent (no trying to hide the chips behind a 0.25' hill!), and are CLEAR about how it's proxied.

I had a discussion with a member of my local club who insists that Sisters make excellent GK counts-as. But he doesn't own any models (playing with chips; we're college kids, so expecting some of us to have fully painted WYSIWYG armies may not always be appropriate), and thus, wanted to play Counts-As GK Counts As Sisters. I'd get confused in a heartbeat. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3249199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3249199.page GMT
I play O&G so when my opponent rocked up with a Vampire Count's army that was cool, when EVERY SINGLE MODEL in his army was those god awful "Mantic" model's, I really had to do my best not to throw the game just to get it over with quickly.

It's nothing against anyone who proxies anything else, I just hate Mantic and their stupid cheap-ass looking deformed miniatures. It's not even me being a GW fanboy, since I have sunk god knows how much money into PP, D&D and some Firestorm Armada and Dystopian Wars stuff.

That's the only time I have hated "Proxy" models...*shudders*...Mantic Models...*shudders*]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3264785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3264785.page GMT
How does 28mm skeletons representing skeletons count as a 'proxy'? Proxies cover things that are standing in for something else like a unit of humans pretending to be skeletons. Simply using a different manufacturer's version of the same models doesn't count as a proxy unless you're a GW purist which you claim not to to be. So what's the beef?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3264805.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3264805.page GMT
I just generally have a problem with Mantic, the models seem awful quality and really low detail, they look just as bad painted as they do bare plastic, the guys behind Mantic just seem like the biggest ass-clowns from every youtube video I have seen them in.

I don't know, maybe it's the fact that "Beasts of War" try to ram how "Amazing" the models are down my throat with nearly every video they make and they always do their best to kiss Alessio's and Ronnie's ass everytime they come onto a video.

What has made me hate Mantic and their model's is the people responsible for them and how people seem to think they are the second coming of the miniature world.

Like, Sting being a complete and utter tool makes me hate "The Police" and Bono thinking he IS Jesus makes me hate "U2", Same goes for "The Smiths"

My entire interactions with everything "Mantic" based has been poisoned by over-enthusiastic and frankly nobbish people and that has lead me to associate the brand with those feelings and therefore every time I see Mantic models across the table from me, I feel a knot of revulsion in my stomach.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3264830.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3264830.page GMT

High_Marshal_Helbrecht wrote:I saw it as a proxy since the guy was using these models to represent the Vampire Counts models which in my opinion are fine as they are and don't need replacing.

That's true of every official GW figure. But not everyone wants official GW figures, and it's not just because some alternatives are cheaper, but they look different and that may be a person's preference.

They look fine to me anyway.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/106626-.html?m=2]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3264847.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3264847.page GMT
He could of felt the exact same way about my O&G army and he has every right to think that.

I just personally dislike Mantic models, the people behind Mantic and that sours my opinions of their models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3264856.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3264856.page GMT Billy the torso had a new hand-drawn slugga and choppa, and my missing man got a 2D to-scale proxy with all the right weapons. So, they were at the right scale and had the right weapons there... Would those be acceptable?

If not, then what about my mob's trukk, built from a couple cheap army-guy toys chopped up, glued together, and various home-made bits glued on? It may not have been GW, but it was the right size and shape and had all the right options...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3265261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3265261.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266062.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266062.page GMT
Personally, I don't use proxies or counts-as. I don't 'do' tournament play, but I do my darndest to make sure that everything I field is WYSIWYG. I do that for my own sense of satisfaction, and a bit of OCD, not for the approval or praise of others. Some of my friends do the same thing, some don't - I'm not going to stop playing with them because they have a different view on WYSIWYG or differing disposable income.

It's a slippery slope. Next thing you know, you're refusing to play a wargame with a buddy you've known since high school because you voted differently in the last election.

All of that said, tourney play, or playing with strangers, I would expect everything to be WYSIWYG (within reason).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266118.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266118.page GMT

Mythal wrote:A friend loses his job and, after a couple of depressing weeks on the dole, calls you up and asks if you're up for a game on Saturday. Are you really going to refuse to let him field an appropriately sized doggie chewtoy as a Rhino?

I don't think anyone is saying they're going to turn down a game with their down-on-their-luck friend. Folks are speaking here about their ideals and preferences.

That said, down on your luck or not, no dog chewtoy is ever coming on my table. I'll find a slightly more representative toy/model for him to use or lend him a tank. Heck, if he's that down, I may go grab a second-hand rhino off Bartertown for him to cheer him up.

Friends don't let friends play with dog toys.

I've said it before, but my mania for painted figures and mostly WYSIWYG miniatures is matched by a willingness to provide/lend painted miniatures for a game whenever possible.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266168.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266168.page GMT
Example: i would not like to play against a paper army made of "tube minis", or those "A" shaped paper minis. But if the army of my opponent where made of "one monk" style, shilhoute cutted, minis. That would be cool (specially in fantasy games where units are generally more important tham models).

The plastic green soldiers are not a problem, except if my opponent showed no clear intent to make it look cool (dont removed mold lines, or used very bad molded pieces).

At the end of the day, everything in the tabble is a proxy. It is there proxying real soldiers in a real battle, the company who produced them dont matter at all. What matter is the fun of the hobby. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266203.page GMT
I really don't like counts-as armies though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266297.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266297.page GMT

Jack Daniels bottle as monolith. Always acceptable.

Could cause moments of contention though - like disappearing off the table and deep striking multiple times within a turn, getting an inch closer to that objective with no one really caring about it much

So long as everybody knows what the proxies are and they are within rough scale to the original - then it's all good by me

Although now I want to build a guard army and paint them all like green army men...

Hmmm...worth a try
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266314.page GMT

Bat Manuel wrote:I really don't like counts-as armies though.

Even for OOP miniatures? How else do people use their lost and damned, squats and genestealer cults?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266335.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266335.page GMT 40k rules with GI Joe action figures of course we had around 500 of them .We could field 30 Cobra soliders or BAts at any given time in mutiple units and the joes were treated as Charcters.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266415.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266415.page GMT
We're all high functioning individuals with extremely successful careers, so not getting around to buying this or that correct figurine isn't so much of a problem. I've played at various FLGS (including both mikhaila's showcase locations) and found that the most vocal nerds on this subject really have nothing else going on in their life besides playing warhammer.

I can understand mikhaila's point of view: He owns a shop and certainly doesn't want cottage cheese container drop pods and cardboard titans ruining his bottom line. Those who aren't financially invested in this topic seem to me to suffer from stockholm syndrome or simply want everyone to be as miserable as them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266637.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266637.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266691.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266691.page GMT

Although I for one would be very iffy about playing against "power weapon" marines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266727.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266727.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266757.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266757.page GMT

JustPlainJim wrote:

If not, then what about my mob's trukk, built from a couple cheap army-guy toys chopped up, glued together, and various home-made bits glued on? It may not have been GW, but it was the right size and shape and had all the right options...

That's not Proxy, that's Skratchbuild. And good on ya!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266866.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3266866.page GMT

Anvildude wrote:

JustPlainJim wrote:

If not, then what about my mob's trukk, built from a couple cheap army-guy toys chopped up, glued together, and various home-made bits glued on? It may not have been GW, but it was the right size and shape and had all the right options...

That's not Proxy, that's Skratchbuild. And good on ya!

Technically it's a kitbash (scratchbuild is built mostly from basic materials. Sheet styrene, rod, GS, etc) but I heartily agree with the setiment.

Kitbashed vehicles that are effectively converted, painted and close to WYSIWYG are always welcome on my table! In fact I'm more interested in seeing an effective kitbash, scratchbuild or unconventional conversion than I am seeing yet another GW vehicle model.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267066.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267066.page GMT

The Dwarf Wolf wrote: I will never have fun playing against an army of plastic tubes

So you'll have more fun not playing at all? Maybe this isn't the hobby for you if you don't enjoy playing it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267195.page GMT

DarknessEternal wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote: I will never have fun playing against an army of plastic tubes

So you'll have more fun not playing at all? Maybe this isn't the hobby for you if you don't enjoy playing it.

You shouldn't be so surprised or so judgmental about our choice of hobby, though judgemental one-liners are a large part of your posting M.O.

There's alot of us -who feel miniatures are integral to the hobby- for whom moving a bunch of plastic tubes on a table is far less enjoyable than not playing and painting/modeling/hanging-out instead. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267256.page GMT

DarknessEternal wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote: I will never have fun playing against an army of plastic tubes

So you'll have more fun not playing at all? Maybe this isn't the hobby for you if you don't enjoy playing it.

Ok, you got me (and igonored all my previous post). Let me correct: i dont care for what my opponent field against me, we are just having some fun, but, i would really prefer if he plays with things that resemble models, not necessarely like the rule books says they should look like. That is just an "atmosfere" thing, and thats exactly why we all prefer painted minis than unpainted ones... That really translate better what i feel.

I should be true to myself: that plastic tube army can be very enjoyable, all the jokes and fun fluffy who could come from that. Ok, dependning on the intent of the other player, that would be very fun

Oh, and let me clarify that i like the Hobby at all, not only a fraction of it...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267346.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267346.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267725.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267725.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267757.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267757.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267847.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3267847.page GMT ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3272808.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/392381/3272808.page GMT