<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Hate Wizards? Play Ogres"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/93.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Hate Wizards? Play Ogres Maneaters, with brace of guns, sniper and scout.
You've got a very good chance at killing wizards with one burst of shooting.
4 maneaters would get 8 shots, hitting on 4's, at S4 armor piercing.

-Matt]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3283634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3283634.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3283645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3283645.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Do Maneaters have BS4 then? Assuming you're at short range and using Sniper.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3283663.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3283663.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
But really, there is so much good stuff in there, there's a lot of options.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3284272.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3284272.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
First turn move up 6.

-1 to hit for long range
-1 to hit for Multiple shots
-1 to hit for sniper

Needing 6's to hit, and therefore 6's to poison.

3 of these will not be TOO cheap, but will put out 1 automatic wound on a chararacter per turn on average with a -2 to saves.

In subsequent rounds you could pottentionally hit on a 5+ (in short range)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3284535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3284535.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
zeekill wrote:I would rather have sniper and poison attacks.

First turn move up 6.

-1 to hit for long range
-1 to hit for Multiple shots
-1 to hit for sniper

Needing 6's to hit, and therefore 6's to poison.

3 of these will not be TOO cheap, but will put out 1 automatic wound on a chararacter per turn on average with a -2 to saves.

In subsequent rounds you could pottentionally hit on a 5+ (in short range)


6 shots, hitting on 6's with auto wound, vs scouts, which give you 6 shots, hitting on 5's at S4 and rolling to wound.
Would you rather have the auto wound, or average 2 hits at S4?
Since most wizards are T3, I'll take the extra hits, and scouting.

Actually, I'd take both. One unit with scout, the other with poison.

-Matt

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3285477.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3285477.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
you can also take the Hellheart, not even Teclis or Cupped Hands on a Slann can ignore this.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3286057.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3286057.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Grey Templar wrote:you can also take the Hellheart, not even Teclis or Cupped Hands on a Slann can ignore this.

Well, the Maneaters can't take it, and you still have to get the HH into the highly variable range. Would really suck to activate a 1 use 50 pt item and it roll up like 5".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3287352.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3287352.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
The Hellheart is a huge threat that can't be ignored, thats for sure.


I think the key is to use it once you are in combat. Wizards tend to hover nearby(or in the block itself) and buff the unit. then you let her rip.


considering the threat is anywhere between 5" and 30", thats a bit of a threat that Wizards take being near us.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3287589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3287589.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3287615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3287615.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
things like the Puppet can effect the roll, but things like Teclis's "I Ignore 1st miscast each turn" and Cupped Hands don't work(cause its a roll and not an actual Miscast)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the Ogres get a dispell dice for every Wizard that was effected too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3287639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3287639.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288476.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
It is a magic item, right?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288486.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288486.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres

Whats a Seerstaff do?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288599.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288618.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288618.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288625.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288625.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Grey Templar wrote:Indeed, although you have to figure out where the Hellheart is first. it can be on any caster the ogres have.


Unless you have 3 butchers or something it shouldnt be that hard though]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288706.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288706.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres SM and 2 Lvl1s with Beasts will be fairly common]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288737.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288737.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres HH is from the beginning of the game. Also, most people I play with, play with open lists....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288752.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288752.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Grey Templar wrote:SM and 2 Lvl1s with Beasts will be fairly common


I wouldn't expect that. With all the INCREDIBLE special choices in this book I think characters will be low priority. A slaughtermaster and a BSB is all that I'm taking.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288896.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288896.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Grey Templar wrote:Makes them roll on the miscast table.

things like the Puppet can effect the roll, but things like Teclis's "I Ignore 1st miscast each turn" and Cupped Hands don't work(cause its a roll and not an actual Miscast)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the Ogres get a dispell dice for every Wizard that was effected too.


Doesn't say anywhere "it's not a miscast" so it's possible Teclis can ignore it completely.
"Ignore a miscast" is a "special rule which affects a miscast roll"
They can decide it with Q&A.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288967.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3288967.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Teclis: "Teclis may ignore the effects of the first miscast he makes each turn."

Take from that what you will, but my(rather biased, I'll admit. F*** Teclis. Go Ogres!) opinion is that Teclis takes the miscast unless you can explain to me how he makes the miscast caused by the Hellheart.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289008.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Tzeentchling9 wrote:Hellheart: "All enemy wizards within (range) of the bearer must roll on the Miscast Table. Special rules or magic items that affect a normal miscast roll can be used against miscasts caused by the Hellheart."

Teclis: "Teclis may ignore the effects of the first miscast he makes each turn."

Take from that what you will, but my(rather biased, I'll admit. F*** Teclis. Go Ogres!) opinion is that Teclis takes the miscast unless you can explain to me how he makes the miscast caused by the Hellheart.


The usual semantics grey area where a new item is created which doesn't work like the normal game works. Book writers can't write a paragraph of disclaimers for every special rule and how it will interact with magic items which don't actually exist at the time.
You've decided you can roll on a Miscast Table without it being a Miscast.
If it is a miscast and it's on Teclis, it's his first miscast that turn. His in that it applies to him. He's making a miscast test.
They can clarify if they want it to ignore the anti-miscast War Crown of Saphery if that is their intention.
My view would be the intention is visible where they're saying special rules about miscast apply as evidence that they considered some mages out there who pay points to not get terrorized by a miscast.

Anyway, he's 475 points and T2 with no save, just take Maneaters with sniper and put a bullet in his head.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289064.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289064.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
TheBloodGod wrote:You've decided you can roll on a Miscast Table without it being a Miscast.

Maybe, I guess I have? What does that change?

If it is a miscast and it's on Teclis, it's his first miscast that turn. His in that it applies to him. He's making a miscast test.

He didn't make it though.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289078.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Tzeentchling9 wrote:
TheBloodGod wrote:You've decided you can roll on a Miscast Table without it being a Miscast.

Maybe, I guess I have? What does that change?

If it is a miscast and it's on Teclis, it's his first miscast that turn. His in that it applies to him. He's making a miscast test.

He didn't make it though.

You're trying to semantics loophole a magic item out of existence. There is no definition of what is and isn't "makes a miscast"
There's not a single sentence in the rulebook that says that a mage walking in range of an anti-mage item is "the item making a miscast and not the mage" or anything of the sort.
As a miscast that's happening oddly, it's up to them to choose. There is NOT just one way to take either Teclis paragraph or the Hellheart's paragraph.

Make
1. to bring into existence
- the miscast wouldn't exist if the mage wasn't there. Both a mage walking into range of the hellheart and hellheart's effect bring about a miscast.
2. to produce; cause to exist or happen; bring about
- again, the miscast is caused by him being within range of an enemy item.

It's a situation with no precedent because there are no rules about "miscast sources" mentioned.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289111.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289111.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Anyway, he's 475 points and T2 with no save, just take Maneaters with sniper and put a bullet in his head.


Lol, I need to sig that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289549.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289549.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289769.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289769.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:Why would having poisoned attacks mean that their missiles are poisoned?


If it didn't apply to ranged attacks, it would say "close combat attacks are poisoned". But because that qualifier is omitted, we can assume EVERY attack they make is poisoned, including ranged attacks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289776.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289776.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
TheBloodGod wrote:
Tzeentchling9 wrote:
TheBloodGod wrote:You've decided you can roll on a Miscast Table without it being a Miscast.

Maybe, I guess I have? What does that change?

If it is a miscast and it's on Teclis, it's his first miscast that turn. His in that it applies to him. He's making a miscast test.

He didn't make it though.

You're trying to semantics loophole a magic item out of existence. There is no definition of what is and isn't "makes a miscast"
There's not a single sentence in the rulebook that says that a mage walking in range of an anti-mage item is "the item making a miscast and not the mage" or anything of the sort.
As a miscast that's happening oddly, it's up to them to choose. There is NOT just one way to take either Teclis paragraph or the Hellheart's paragraph.

Make
1. to bring into existence
- the miscast wouldn't exist if the mage wasn't there. Both a mage walking into range of the hellheart and hellheart's effect bring about a miscast.
2. to produce; cause to exist or happen; bring about
- again, the miscast is caused by him being within range of an enemy item.

It's a situation with no precedent because there are no rules about "miscast sources" mentioned.


1: that is such an insane stretch of logic. The mage didn't cause the Miscast, the Ogre with the Hellheart made the mage roll on the miscast chart as he is directly responsable. thats like saying I am responsable for the dent that Jerk who backed into my car caused because I parked in that particular parking spot.

2: as above]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3289996.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290038.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290038.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290050.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290064.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290064.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres GT, I don't have the OK book, and if it was mentioned earlier in the thread, I missed it, but is this thing a warmachine? 'Cause warmachines can't stand & shoot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290087.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290102.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290110.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290110.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres


And to erase all speculation the rules for the Ironblaster even say "Move and Fire". Yeah, stand and shoot would be lovely, then the ogre and rhinox get to kill what's left. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290210.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290210.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290383.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
eat it chaos knights.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290392.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290392.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Grey Templar wrote:Who cares? its Str10 grapeshot!!!

eat it chaos knights.


Yes. A S10 grapeshot that, if you are lucky, will kill 1 guy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290520.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290520.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Grey Templar wrote:
TheBloodGod wrote:
Tzeentchling9 wrote:
TheBloodGod wrote:You've decided you can roll on a Miscast Table without it being a Miscast.

Maybe, I guess I have? What does that change?

If it is a miscast and it's on Teclis, it's his first miscast that turn. His in that it applies to him. He's making a miscast test.

He didn't make it though.

You're trying to semantics loophole a magic item out of existence. There is no definition of what is and isn't "makes a miscast"
There's not a single sentence in the rulebook that says that a mage walking in range of an anti-mage item is "the item making a miscast and not the mage" or anything of the sort.
As a miscast that's happening oddly, it's up to them to choose. There is NOT just one way to take either Teclis paragraph or the Hellheart's paragraph.

Make
1. to bring into existence
- the miscast wouldn't exist if the mage wasn't there. Both a mage walking into range of the hellheart and hellheart's effect bring about a miscast.
2. to produce; cause to exist or happen; bring about
- again, the miscast is caused by him being within range of an enemy item.

It's a situation with no precedent because there are no rules about "miscast sources" mentioned.


1: that is such an insane stretch of logic. The mage didn't cause the Miscast, the Ogre with the Hellheart made the mage roll on the miscast chart as he is directly responsable. thats like saying I am responsable for the dent that Jerk who backed into my car caused because I parked in that particular parking spot.

2: as above


It's your insane stretch of logic trying to semantics away a special rule allowing complete immunity to the effects of his first miscast per turn. If he's the model suffering the miscast, it's his first miscast and thus he's immune to the effects. Period.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290716.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290716.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
It all boils to down to wether or not the action of rolling on the table makes it a miscast, which is why it's best to just discuss it with your opponent until the FAQ.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290800.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290800.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
I hope it stays that way.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290868.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3290868.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
I'm a bit torn, actually. On one hand Teclis didn't cause the miscast, obviously. He can only cause a miscast by casting spells and it happens before spells are cast. But it also says,

"special rules or magic items that affect a normal miscast roll can be used against miscasts caused by the hellheart."

But then again, there are rules/items that modify the ROLL of the miscast (WoC Infernal Puppet, Book of Secrets) and rules/items that modify the EXISTENCE of the miscast (Teclis, Cupped Hands).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3291176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3291176.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres Which means it could bypass both Teclis and Cupped Hands.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3292968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3292968.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3293201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3293201.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, although I am personally waiting for my first Stand and Shoot with Str10 grapeshot. "Say ello to my little friend!!!"

Flank charged, Sucker! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3293233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3293233.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Jackster wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, although I am personally waiting for my first Stand and Shoot with Str10 grapeshot. "Say ello to my little friend!!!"

Flank charged, Sucker!


By what? I already plan to flank my 'blasters with units of gnobblar trappers. Cavalry takes dangerous terrain test, gets shot up by gnobblar thrown weapons, kills the gnobblars then takes S10 grapeshot or countercharged by the 'blaster.

After looking through the new book, I've been thinking about all the tactics now open to Ogre players that didn't exist before. Exciting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3293945.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3293945.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
agnosto wrote:
Jackster wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, although I am personally waiting for my first Stand and Shoot with Str10 grapeshot. "Say ello to my little friend!!!"

Flank charged, Sucker!


By what? I already plan to flank my 'blasters with units of gnobblar trappers. Cavalry takes dangerous terrain test, gets shot up by gnobblar thrown weapons, kills the gnobblars then takes S10 grapeshot or countercharged by the 'blaster.

After looking through the new book, I've been thinking about all the tactics now open to Ogre players that didn't exist before. Exciting.


an Ancient Steg that rolled really well on the charge.

the Ironblaster had turned to face another ancient that had managed to break through my lines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3294065.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3294065.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Grey Templar wrote:
agnosto wrote:
Jackster wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, although I am personally waiting for my first Stand and Shoot with Str10 grapeshot. "Say ello to my little friend!!!"

Flank charged, Sucker!


By what? I already plan to flank my 'blasters with units of gnobblar trappers. Cavalry takes dangerous terrain test, gets shot up by gnobblar thrown weapons, kills the gnobblars then takes S10 grapeshot or countercharged by the 'blaster.

After looking through the new book, I've been thinking about all the tactics now open to Ogre players that didn't exist before. Exciting.


an Ancient Steg that rolled really well on the charge.

the Ironblaster had turned to face another ancient that had managed to break through my lines.


That's why you need two of them! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3294074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3294074.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
I'm sure the wizard haters are too busy stroking their magnificent beards behind a runelord with Master Rune of Spellbinding.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3294078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3294078.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres )]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3294080.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3294080.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres
Grey Templar wrote:
agnosto wrote:
Jackster wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, although I am personally waiting for my first Stand and Shoot with Str10 grapeshot. "Say ello to my little friend!!!"

Flank charged, Sucker!


By what? I already plan to flank my 'blasters with units of gnobblar trappers. Cavalry takes dangerous terrain test, gets shot up by gnobblar thrown weapons, kills the gnobblars then takes S10 grapeshot or countercharged by the 'blaster.

After looking through the new book, I've been thinking about all the tactics now open to Ogre players that didn't exist before. Exciting.


an Ancient Steg that rolled really well on the charge.

the Ironblaster had turned to face another ancient that had managed to break through my lines.

It was the only one that did lol, my Carnosaur and the Steg with Engine both rolled like crap.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3294437.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3294437.page GMT Hate Wizards? Play Ogres dmg wizards, but most of them also say remove "d3 power dice" or whatever. It actually shuts down the magic phase much more effectively than the old one did, even you catch like half the wizards. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3334256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3334256.page GMT Re:Hate Wizards? Play Ogres http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3334675.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/394925/3334675.page GMT