http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net army lists were agreed to 2515 points.

HQ: = 515
Archon w/shadow field, drugs, agonizer, blast pistol, = 135
court: w/ 1 lhamean, 2 medusae, 3 sslyth, 3 ur ghuls, raider w/ flicker field = 410

baron sathoyx = 105


Elites: = 519
4 trueborn w/4 blasters on venom with 2 splinter cannons = 173
4 trueborn w/4 blasters on venom with 2 splinter cannons = 173
4 trueborn w/4 blasters on venom with 2 splinter cannons = 173

Troops: = 750
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125
5 warriors w/1 blaster, on venom w/2 splintercannon = 125

Fast Attack: = 381
9 reavers w/ 3 heat lances, arena champ = 253
9 hellions = 128

Heavy support: = 345
ravager w/3 lances, flickerfield = 115
ravager w/3 lances, flickerfield = 115
ravager w/3 lances, flickerfield = 115


total 2503

so any lists that can have a real shot at taking this down? or is the venom spam pretty much the current ultimate curbstomp delevery system people here are saying it is?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290216.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290216.page GMT IG list with hydras can really do some damage against Venom Spam.

In addition, while you have lots of blasters, a mechanized enemy with lots of firepower at long range can be a real problem for Venom spam. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290229.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290255.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290255.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290262.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290262.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290377.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290377.page GMT OP. He isn't looking for advice to make it better, he is saying it is too good and his friends won't play against him. The question asked was, what army can beat his list?

To that, I agree with extrenm, mech guard is going to be the best bet. Tons of multi lasers, autocannons, long range big guns. Gorechild also makes a good point, in that your points are way over!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290738.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3290738.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3291539.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3291539.page GMT AT LEAST an extra full Ravager. Check your points again and fix them. They may be the reason you're tearing your friends apart. I understand you said your court didn't do anything, and you can take the points out of that. Or...remove a Ravager to be right on the dot. Otherwise, it doesn't look like a beatstick list and your friends just need to change tactics.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3291561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3291561.page GMT FA. You don't have the choice to field them that way - Hellions are troops with the Baron, meaning that you have 7 troops choices.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3291572.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3291572.page GMT
All of your AT (with the exception of the 3 ravagers) has only an 18" range. All those Psycannons and Storm Bolters and crazy gak would rip this list up at that range.

Mechanized Blood Angel razorback spam could also do a number on this list.

Mech Guard, as many have already mentioned.

Basically, anything mechanized that has greater than 18 inch range, and more durability than an AV 10 open-topped vehicle. They could just sit back, force you to come to them, and pew pew.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3291786.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3291786.page GMT GKs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3291909.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3291909.page GMT IMO]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3292285.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3292285.page GMT hq instead of the 515 it should be. (a diffrence of 135 pts) i believe the error came when i copy and pasted my .doc army list and deleted the individual points and errored in how i did so with the hq. my usual army list is: "unit w/# models (pts) w/ wargear (pts), wargear (pts), wargear (pts) = total."

otherwise i used the jetbikes / hellions simply becasue i dont own any beastmaster units, and needed something to fill out points. since hev, troops, hq and elietes are full, im left with fast attack, and only models i own for that are bikes and hellions.


update to orginal question: talked it out with group and we decided a "meat block" of gaurd with tons of AC would pose a threat, and GK with proper optimized build could also challenge. main problem is none of them have those armys/models so we are left with using vassal. to expand the query further, armys available are chaos, (x2) tau, wolves, and marines. and to some extent eldar.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3292556.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3292556.page GMT

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293211.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293211.page GMT OP. Don't get me wrong, they are very good, but once another codex or two are released old nobody will bat an eyelid.

I really don't like toning down a list, and seeing as you've already thrown hundreds of points into sub-optimal units (Reavers, Hellions, Court) I'm inclined to suggest that its your opponents lists that are the problem, not yours. If you had a couple of big units of beasts or scourges or something, then dropped the Court I could understand why they're complaining, but as it stands, you're not running a stupidly OP list.

Maybe swap out 2 units of Warrirors for two units of 9 Wyches and a Haemonculus in a Raider. Dropping the court and Archon will give you more than enough points. IMO that would be an improvement to the list, but as its more varied and there is 1 less vehicle on the board, your opponents might take to it more kindly. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293312.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293312.page GMT CSM player is able to focus fire on your ravengers and take them out early, then you are going to have a real issue dealing with the 6 AV 12 hulls and 6 AV 11 hulls while still being able to gun down over 30 plague marines.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293557.page GMT
Archon and baron not really doing anything (beatstick? no not really) court is crap for how much it costs. Single smallish unit of hellions is crap, you need many more to make them decent. Jetbikes in the wrong type of list, and beastpacks are a better use of points.

So the effective core is 3 elite trublaster venom squads, 6 venom blaster warrior squads, and the typical 3 ravagers. That "core" of effective units comes to 1614, add an HQ (harmie or two to be cheap) and you are looking at 1750. The other units aren't a real threat, and are effectively distractions and points filler. So if your opponents can't beat what is really a disguised 1750 list, with a 2500 list, then their lists and tactics must truly be awful. Especially since you have very little long range anti tank, and what you have are on AV 11 open topped vehicles, and only 3 platforms of it.

Keep using this list (make it legal for gods sake though, and get your points right), when you opponents complain tell them that your list is 1/3 filler (though the other 2/3 is certainly scary for many opponents who don't 5th ed very well), and if they can't beat it maybe they should look towards themselves rather than crying cheese or whatever they do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293912.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293912.page GMT AT goes (at 1850 I run 19 lance weapons in my wyche list), but offers tremendous amounts of anti-infantry shooting. The issue with venomspam here is that it has a rough time against other quick lists because instead of getting your cargo out and blasting you have to jockey for position against the opponent; which means less turns shooting. Venomspam has the benefit of blasting the hell out of things from turn 1!

But like many others said, its far from unbeatable. It suffers from the same weakness as any other DE list for the most part; fragility. Bolters will blast yoir venoms to pieces. Stunned or shaken results are easy to get on them. If you face things like Razorspam (which will easily outrange your blasters if played correctly) your gonna have a fight on your hands. IG tears venomspam to little bits, especially if they get T1. I will always prefer wyches over venomspam any day; but thats my personal choice Duke Sliscus ftw]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293938.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293938.page GMT http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293959.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3293959.page GMT
i believe i did explain the points thing though.

also re read the barons entry, and i suppose the wording does fully change hellions over to troops. i was under impression you could take them either as fast or troops with the baron. not going to cry over loosing them however. but thats exactly what i used the hellions and bikes for - was distraction. figured i would use them as mobile cover for my TB venoms and absoarb a round or to of fire. they did the job perfectly - and the bikes even managed to pop a couple of tanks (hammerhead and devilfish) last game.

i was thinking that the second incarnaiton of this list would be loosing 3 of the warrior venoms for wych raiders, and attaching an archon and some haemonculus to those wychs. for fast, i like the idea of beasts - i just dont have the models.

i also agree with the statements of looking to the other guys lists/tactics. they ARE using relics of 3rd with tau and chaos.. so that could be a pretty obvious handycap. but all in all everything they have tried has been beaten back.

i think for gaks n giggles i might just offer an "army swap" for a day. let them play my DE and ill take tau/chaos we each make lists and have at it. wonder if i'll beat them with there own sticks? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3295283.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3295283.page GMT STR 6 shots, those venoms drop pretty fast. Not to mention a 12 armor serpent ramming into a 10 armor venom will do some damage.

Sweet list though man. Its def hard as hell to beat unless you have the right counter for it and those counters are few and far between. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3357052.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/395301/3357052.page GMT