Latest posts for the thread "Unforgivable combos"

Unforgivable combos

Squash — GMT

Just out of pure curiosity, what do you consider to be the worst (cheesiest) thing someone can bring to a table? I'll add other suggestions people have.

To clarify, the Grave Guard deathstar is the classic combo with regeneration banner and a supporting Vampire Lord with Crown of Commandment.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Strig — GMT

I went with Teclis, but only if in a unit with the Banner of the World Dragon (err the one that negates magic).

As for the other ones, with a 15 point Flaming Attacks banner you can jack them up, so I do not think them all that troublesome. Even certain magic lores have missle spells that count as flaming. I think outside lore of fire, Metal and Light have spells that count as fire and then other lores have spells to deal out the hurt based on characteristic tests.

As for the Grave-Star + Plus Helm of Commandment, if you drop the regen banner then add those points to the model count of the GG unit you can achieve nearly the same results. However if you get Grave guard with regen, hitting on 2's wounding on 2's, rerolls to hit and the Lore of Light combo to strike at I10, that will hurt! A lot of peices need to fall into place, but if they do its a lot of dmg.

Just my two coppers though, hah.

- Strig

Unforgivable combos

Trondheim — GMT

Double HPA

Re:Unforgivable combos

Grey Templar — GMT

Double HPAs?

try triple HPAs that showed up at Ard Boyz this year.

Double HPA is annoying, 3 is terrifying.

Unforgivable combos

Cerebrium — GMT

Yep, I had the triple HPA pulled on me. In a casual game. I told him politely where he could shove it and just what I thought of his sportsmanship.

Unforgivable combos

Flashman — GMT

Is Ard Boyz >2000pts then?

I went with Teclis, but he can be taken down

Unforgivable combos

Acardia — GMT

Ard boyz is 3k. Triple HPA isn't too bad. Try 120+ DE crossbowmen, with unbreakable banner + 4 other lords/heroes in tower, and 2 RBT in the corners.

That's the nasty. I had two doeses of dwellers for him though.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Aerethan — GMT

Don't forget that the grave guard combo uses the +1 to hit banner making them hit on 2's and wound on 2's.

Teclis is still worse, as all the others can be dealt with in some manner, whereas a hiding mage beatstick can be difficult to remove.

Unforgivable combos

DarkAngelHopeful — GMT

Acardia wrote:Ard boyz is 3k. Triple HPA isn't too bad. Try 120+ DE crossbowmen, with unbreakable banner + 4 other lords/heroes in tower, and 2 RBT in the corners.

That's the nasty. I had two doeses of dwellers for him though.

Do you allow a tower to be more than 3 levels then? I know there is debate about it, but the wording of the item says place a "watch tower building (or scratch-built structure of a similar size)." The watch tower building from GW is only 3 levels, so only 15 shots a turn. I think people severely abuse and read the rules for the folding tower way to loosely.

Unforgivable combos

RaptorsTalon — GMT

Teclis isn't the worst. I would say double/triple HPA is much worse.
I play HE and decided not to take Teclis beacuse he annoys people, but when me and my freind thought about it we came up with loads of different ways to get rid of him.

Unforgivable combos

Foolish_Hyena — GMT

I'm going with the grave guard. The monsters are easy enough with a glaive of putrefaction lord with knights and then a unit of halbred warriors with the flame banner. Running around and well teclis likes to melt to curse of the leper.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Nitros14 — GMT

The Grave Guard 'deathstar' is a lot more expensive than the other three, both in absolute terms and for what it does.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Warboss ZanZag — GMT

Ive just recently started Warhammer Fantasy, and picked up the Skavens i really love those damn Rat men<3. But i know next to nothing about the different tactic and such. So... Is the HPA really that insane? Well sure it's a damn strong unit with regan abilities and cababilities. But is double or even triple really that cheesy?

I have fallen a bit in love with the unit myself so would be nice to know how cheesy it is.

Unforgivable combos

Acardia — GMT

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:
Acardia wrote:Ard boyz is 3k. Triple HPA isn't too bad. Try 120+ DE crossbowmen, with unbreakable banner + 4 other lords/heroes in tower, and 2 RBT in the corners.

That's the nasty. I had two doeses of dwellers for him though.

Do you allow a tower to be more than 3 levels then? I know there is debate about it, but the wording of the item says place a "watch tower building (or scratch-built structure of a similar size)." The watch tower building from GW is only 3 levels, so only 15 shots a turn. I think people severely abuse and read the rules for the folding tower way to loosely.

No but it wins by point denial. He had it at 3 levels, so 15 people could shoot. still like 33 shots a turn. Even assaulting the tower, I wouldn't be able to kill that unit. With out dwellers or some other way to snipe the characters out. I would only of dropped the two rbt.

Unforgivable combos

Coolyo294 — GMT

60 Marauders w/ Great Weapons.

Unforgivable combos

cowpow16 — GMT

3 HPA as been said before thats just gross.

Cant the screaming bell destroy buildings on a certain roll or does that not work?

The 120 DE are scary but 3 hpa's take the cake.

Unforgivable combos

Cerebrium — GMT

Coolyo294 wrote:60 Marauders w/ Great Weapons.

Nah, 60 marauders with flails and Mark of Khorne.

*shudder*

Unforgivable combos

Nitros14 — GMT

Cerebrium wrote:
Coolyo294 wrote:60 Marauders w/ Great Weapons.

Nah, 60 marauders with flails and Mark of Khorne.

*shudder*

But all the back ranks wouldn't get their extra attacks from the Mark.

Unforgivable combos

Grey Templar — GMT

RaptorsTallon wrote:Teclis isn't the worst. I would say double/triple HPA is much worse.
I play HE and decided not to take Teclis beacuse he annoys people, but when me and my freind thought about it we came up with loads of different ways to get rid of him.

The problem with Teclis is that he can be hidden in a PG unit really easily. there are certain items that just screw him over, but only a couple of armies have those items and those armies also tend to be ones that don't have as much to fear from him in the first place. Lizardmen have their own uber Wizards and Dark Elves arn't as vulnerable to super spells.

HEs just have too many ways to generate additional Power and Dispel dice combined with all their silly bonuses to cast. Some HE builds will be rocking 12 power dice nearly all the time if the roll for Winds is anything above a 6. even worse with DD, HE can expect to easily have twice as many DD as their opponent has PD.

In some ways, its better now that the HEs can't get 20+ power dice each turn, but, on the other hand, the power of the Uber spells in the BRB has totally compensated for this. Teclis now just needs to toss 6 dice at Pit of Shades, Dwellers, or Purple Sun and there goes the neighborhood. and he is basically asured of an Irrisistable force due to his rules and he can easily meet the casting value with his bonus to cast.

Hellpits can at least be countered by the Banner of Flame which EVERYONE can get.

Unforgivable combos

Kura — GMT

At the club my double hydra 1500 pt list was voted the cheesiest... In fact I was the only one to receive votes ><;. I'd like to add chosen star to the list, as so far they are pretty much the only thing that my hydra's don't munch on.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Grey Templar — GMT

Hydras are broken mostly because of the changes to Breath Weapons and the addition of Thunderstomp. before they were just a fair priced monster. now they are woefully undecosted.

HPAs only gained Tstomp with 8th. everything else is 'supposedly' included in its cost.

Unforgivable combos

cowpow16 — GMT

He didnt mention what points limit so im sure thats why people have different views.

Also 50 mok fc gw marauders with I10 and WS10 makes a bloodthirster a very sad and dead daemon.
He may go first but they still out rank him and hit on 3s

Unforgivable combos

RiTides — GMT

Seems a rather odd list without Kairos, flamers, the chosenstar warshrines combo... I don't know, it's hard to say what's the most effective combo out there in a list like this.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Boss Salvage — GMT

Grey Templar wrote:before they were just a fair priced monster.

RiTides wrote:Seems a rather odd list without Kairos, flamers, the chosenstar warshrines combo...

Word RT, there are worse things out there, or at least similarly horrific. From the four choices here, my vote solidly goes to double hydras, what a ridiculously cheap monster in an army that doesn't need the help. Teclis is old news and pretty gimp when it comes down to punching him in the face; double hellpits is (IMO) a really gross move from a sports perspective and a worse move in casual games, but I think in competitive settings they don't return like you'd expect (i.e. if the other guy has the tools to deal with 1 - and he better! - then he can often deal with 2, costing you 470 points and your crutch); and the gravestar is brutal but expensive and frankly what else do VC players have going for them? Besides a lack of imagination? (I jest vampers! It's just sad that your book only manifests as ghouls + gravestar at this point. HawaiiMatt, you don't count )

Honestly I think 2x 6 flamers or 2x 3 salamanders are both at least on par with these guys. Max camo skinks are pretty broken as well.

- Salvage

Unforgivable combos

DarkAngelHopeful — GMT

Acardia wrote:
DarkAngelHopeful wrote:
Acardia wrote:Ard boyz is 3k. Triple HPA isn't too bad. Try 120+ DE crossbowmen, with unbreakable banner + 4 other lords/heroes in tower, and 2 RBT in the corners.

That's the nasty. I had two doeses of dwellers for him though.

Do you allow a tower to be more than 3 levels then? I know there is debate about it, but the wording of the item says place a "watch tower building (or scratch-built structure of a similar size)." The watch tower building from GW is only 3 levels, so only 15 shots a turn. I think people severely abuse and read the rules for the folding tower way to loosely.

No but it wins by point denial. He had it at 3 levels, so 15 people could shoot. still like 33 shots a turn. Even assaulting the tower, I wouldn't be able to kill that unit. With out dwellers or some other way to snipe the characters out. I would only of dropped the two rbt.

good on him for only using 3 levels. But that's definitely a tough nut to crack. The points denial in that is crazy. Good thing you had dwellers.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Grey Templar — GMT

How many points is 2 Bolt Throwers?

if its 100 points or more, just kill them and stay away from the building.

Re:Unforgivable combos

DarkAngelHopeful — GMT

Grey Templar wrote:How many points is 2 Bolt Throwers?

if its 100 points or more, just kill them and stay away from the building.

Two bolt throwers for HE is 200 pts. I think it's the same for DE, although I don't have my DE book on me at the moment (and I'm not as familiar with it).

In a tournament you'd end up with a draw if you just killed the bolt throwers and didn't do anything about the tower. Which can sometimes be just as bad as a loss.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Grey Templar — GMT

200 point victory is a draw in some tournaments?

I thought the main rules were 100 points is a victory.

Unforgivable combos

DarkAngelHopeful — GMT

Right, in the main rules if you score 100 more points than your opponent you win.

In most tournaments they have to figure out a way to separate people by more than just their wins and losses. So, they use battle points. They usually have a scale of some sort to determine how many battle points you receive by how big of a margin you have in your victory. So, if you massacre your opponent you would typically receive 20 BP and your opponent would receive 0 BP. If you got a major victory you would get something like 17 BP and the loser would get 3 BP. Minor victory would be like 14 or something and a draw would be like 10. Then there would be bonus BP for things like killing the general or having a unit of core troops in the enemy deployment zone, etc.

Here's the break down of how you win from one of the first round scenarios from 'ard boyz (in all of my local tournaments, a system similar to this is used).

MASSACRE
Defeat your opponent by 1500 victory points or more.
MAJOR VICTORY
Defeat your opponent by 800 – 1499 victory points.
MINOR VICTORY
Defeat you opponent by 200 – 799 Victory points.
DRAW
Defeat your opponent by 199 victory points or less.
BATTLEMODIFIERS
+1 point for killing your opponent’s cheapest unit.
+1 point for each of your opponent’s reserve
units you kill.
+1 point for massacring your opponent.

So, if this rule set were being used against the DE tower army, and the just killed the 2 RBT for 200 pts and he didn't lost any points, he'd get a minor victory. This would suck for him big time since he'd have almost no chance of getting a massacre or major victory which would then upset his positioning for the next match.

I've also seen it where it seems like guys try to lose just barely so they get a minor loss. That way they can be put against an opponent that's not so "good." Then they kick their butt and get a massacre and posture themselves for a match against someone in the lead. Then they massacre that guy, dropping him from one of the lead positions and potentially taking third or second and sometimes first, if the first place guy gets hammered.

It sucks.

Unforgivable combos

Boss Salvage — GMT

DarkAngelHopeful wrote:I've also seen it where it seems like guys try to lose just barely so they get a minor loss. That way they can be put against an opponent that's not so "good." Then they kick their butt and get a massacre and posture themselves for a match against someone in the lead. Then they massacre that guy, dropping him from one of the lead positions and potentially taking third or second and sometimes first, if the first place guy gets hammered.

Apparently this is called "submarine-ing" ... And yes, definitely vomitous.

- Salvage

Re:Unforgivable combos

Grey Templar — GMT

Indeed, although considering the situation it seems like its the only course of action. unless you have something that can totally wreck face on a unit in a building.

I'll gladly take a minor victory if its my only real option.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Da Butcha — GMT

I'm voting the double HPA for double reasons!

First, it's just really annoying. Having one really problematic monster roaming around is obnoxious, having two is worse.

Second, Hell Pit abominations are supposed to be these rare, exotic monstrosities that are so expensive and difficult to create. At least Dark Elves just BREED hydras. Not only is the dual HPA an annoying thing to face, it's not even particularly believable in-game. I might be bothered less if the entire army was themed around Clan Moulder, but that would just lower them to the level of dual Hydras (which is the same level as dual Steam Tanks in my book).

Re:Unforgivable combos

Lehnsherr — GMT

I voted for the double HPA's. I should point out that I am slightly biased as I play HE and am one of Teclis' biggest defenders. The reason I voted double HPA's is because they are undercosted (yes Teclis is undercosted too) but they are also very difficult to deal with with some armies (again, can be said for Teclis, although if you get to him, he is as good as dead).

Teclis can be cheesy, and in 2k games Teclis can be a real pain the butt. As the points values get larger, the HE army tends to balance itself out, and in most cases Teclis can be dealt with much more ease. If its any consolation, if I had a 2nd vote, it would go to Teclis. It should be noted that for Teclis to be considered really powerful you have to add him with his bunker of PG, the Banner of Sorcery, and the Banner of the World Dragon. If its just Teclis on his own, I doubt you'd ever hear anyone complain about him as he would die first turn, every time. So I think that you should consider revising the poll to word it so that Teclis is included with the other things that make his "combo" "unforgiveable". Teclis alone is not "unforgiveable" in the same way that a unit of Chosen is not "unforgiveable" without their shrines to back them up.

The other things you listed are powerful, but they require so many points that its hard to classify them as cheesy. A chosen star is a pita, but it requires 2 shrines and a decent sized block of expensive troops. They might be hard as nails, but considering the points you are spending on them, and their shrines, they should be hard as nails.

Also, I do want to point out that this is merely for fun, as I don't consider anything on this list to be "unforgiveable". Now if it was a friendly game, and a guy pulled out 3 HPA's like what happened to Grey Templar... ya I might not play that opponent again. I don't think I'd get worked up over it though either. Some people have a different (not wrong, just different) idea of fun. Sometimes my idea and their idea is incompatible, but no reason to get angry over it.

If you are talking tourney play, then bring the best you got, no apologies.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Mr. Self Destruct — GMT

I've yet to actually play against an HPA, so I can't be bothered to bitch about it.
But nothing makes me want to flip tables more than 2x6 Flamers. Those stupid fething pricks just sit there and shoot overpowered fire at you from smiling mouths.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Grey Templar — GMT

I actually don't think HPAs are all that scary.

they are T5 and only have Regen to protect themselves IIRC. My old T6 Tyrant took on one all by his lonesome and minced it.

Multiples are simply annoying and the Banner of Eternal Flame ensures you will always have at least 1 unit capable of simply destroying them.

Unforgivable combos

cowpow16 — GMT

They are not that scary but when you have them running around all over the place backed by slaves and clan rats.

Boss I have heard that term apparently some guy did that at the local tourney here last year I missed it tho but there was apparently a lot of good sportsmanship.

Besides the point.

Chaos warriors with halberds and flaming banner do an alright job of dealing with them and then you have flickering fire and what not to stick it to em.

Not a fan of the grave guard they just chew through stuff too fast for my liking and hit too hard :(

Re:Unforgivable combos

Grey Templar — GMT

Well, you can forgive VCs their graveguard. they have Skeleton envy.

Unforgivable combos

Warboss ZanZag — GMT

cowpow16 wrote:3 HPA as been said before thats just gross.

Cant the screaming bell destroy buildings on a certain roll or does that not work?

The 120 DE are scary but 3 hpa's take the cake.

No not the screaming bell. But they have a Spell called ''Cracks Call'' 11+ spell that imitates a earthquake and will destroy buildings if in reach.

Unforgivable combos

cowpow16 — GMT

Ok sorry not too familiar with but ya they can bust up buildings some how is what I was trying to get at.
Thanks for the info tho

Unforgivable combos

DarkAngelHopeful — GMT

I thought there was a result on the bell's chart that did destroy buildings. I don't have my book on me though.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Lehnsherr — GMT

The bell can indeed destroy buildings.

Result 11-12 - Deafening peals brings all buildings within 18" down on a 5+

Being inside a building against a Skaven army is just a bad idea.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Warboss ZanZag — GMT

Yeah his right. It seems this was my mistake. (Sorry for wrong info) It's written right here and somehow ive missed it?

11-12 Deafening Peals. Roll a D6 for each building in within 18'' of the Bell - each collapse on a +5.

Pretty hardcore spell .

Anyway no one really told me about the doubelt HPA's. Are they really that cheesy and OP gamewise? Cus i was thinking on running two as i really love the model. (Seriusly it's a huge ass five headed mutated rat, what's not to love?)
But.. If it's so cheesy that people gives me the eyes. Then i would like to know more about it.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Lehnsherr — GMT

I wouldn't think twice about it.

You can always bring a second list, then ask your opponent before the game if they think it will be a problem, that way you have all your bases covered.

Friendly games should be just that, friendly. If that means your opponent might have an issue with 2 HPA's you can adapt and not play the 2 HPAs, or you can find a new opponent if they seem like they might be someone to avoid based on that initial communication.

Even if I thought something was super cheese, if my opponent asked me before the game if its ok if he ran it, I would have a hard time saying no. Communication, openness and honesty go a long way in a game like Warhammer.

Re:Unforgivable combos

Boss Salvage — GMT

Da Butcha wrote:Second, Hell Pit abominations are supposed to be these rare, exotic monstrosities that are so expensive and difficult to create. At least Dark Elves just BREED hydras. Not only is the dual HPA an annoying thing to face, it's not even particularly believable in-game. I might be bothered less if the entire army was themed around Clan Moulder ...

Warboss ZanZag wrote:Cus i was thinking on running two as i really love the model. (Seriusly it's a huge ass five headed mutated rat, what's not to love?)

Precisely the reason why, if I ever buy the GW model, it won't be used as a hellpit. It is an awesome and surprisingly well-priced kit, but it also means that 85% of all hellpits are nearly identical! I actually really loved when everybody was converting their own critters to represent this unit with amazing rules, like what happened when the defiler appeared in The Last & Greatest CSM Codex. Double big plastic hellpits in one army just drives the 'CLONE WARZ' thing home swifter.

Lehnsherr wrote:The reason I voted double HPA's is because they are undercosted (yes Teclis is undercosted too) but they are also very difficult to deal with with some armies

The reason I don't even play a hellpit any longer is because, against opponents without the means to stop it, it singlehandedly wins game after game. Which while somewhat intoxicating also leaves me with a hollow victory, and the other dude feeling traumatized

On the bell, it has at least one other result (Wall of Sound?) that blows up buildings within 24" on a 4+. For those who don't know, everybody in these wrecked buildings takes an Initiative test or dies, though I think they get ward saves (no armor though).

- Salvage

Re:Unforgivable combos

Lehnsherr — GMT

You could always give regular opponents a heads up that you will be bringing a HPA. You don't have to give em your list, but at least if you tell them, then they can prepare a bit.

I do understand where you are coming from though, and I feel much the same way about running Teclis against a lot of other players too.

That being said, its not exactly enjoyable to have a model that you can't ever use. I at least get to use Teclis as a counts as mage, that way I can still use his (imo) awesome model, while playing a more balanced Level 4 instead of Teclis. If you converted a sweet HPA model before the GW official model was released, and now its just collecting dust on a shelf, that would make me a sad gamer. I'd take a beating from it just so it could see the light of day.

Unforgivable combos

Cerebrium — GMT

The HPA model is awesome, but I agree with Boss. I loved to see mad conversions for it because it's exactly the sort of thing that, IMO, SHOULD be converted.

Unforgivable combos

DarkAngelHopeful — GMT

I play Teclis in tournaments or in practice games for tournaments. I always let my opponent know if I intend to play a practice game for a tournament and that I'm bring Teclis and an army that I would consider something akin to an 'Ard Boyz army. If they say yes, then we play. If not, then we don't. If I know it's going to be a friendly game, then I never bring Teclis. But we have tournaments here every other month, so a lot of my games are practice games for those tournies. No one in my local area begrudges me for it either. They like to play against my 'ard lists when I ask.

Unforgivable combos

Cerebrium — GMT

Yeah, there's a distinction to be made.

Your casual list which is at least a bit toned down, and your tournament list where you're free to pull no punches.

For example, I'm starting dwarfs. I wouldn't consider playing the Anvil in a casual game, but if I take them to a tournament, you better believe I'm bringing it.

Unforgivable combos

cowpow16 — GMT

I agree witht he converting of an HPA those things are crazy and even of you use the model set and add stuff and make it crazier.

But yes a distinction needs to be made for such things since if I am expecting a game just for the sake of playing and then someone pulls a tourney list then that is very bothersome since hey I dont have my hard core list I usually do call it a day and head out at that point.