Latest posts for the thread "A point on las weaponry"

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Assuming that lasguns and the like fire heated laser bolts, wouldnt this simply cauterize the wound as soon as it hit. So in theory it is impossible for someone to bleed out from a lasgun shot. I could see this being fine for the bigger stuff like lascannons, but for the average lasgun, doesn't this drastically reduce it's effectiveness? Another theory is that I'm looking to far into it and should just shut up and play the game.

A point on las weaponry

Nocturn — GMT

Yes it would, though many novels choose to believe otherwise.
It could still severely impede someone by completely cauterizing an artery, preventing bloodflow and leading to loss of limb.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So las weapons are less effective then auto weapons, except when put in the hands of a marksman

Re:A point on las weaponry

Void__Dragon — GMT

Laser weapons create a superheated miniature explosion upon impact.

Theoretically, being hit by such a weapon should be incredibly debilitating, capable of blowing off arms, etc.

Depictions seem to vary.

A point on las weaponry

Jackster — GMT

A lasgun shot can blow off a a person, or even penetrate weak points of a power armor, the trade off is worth it.

Re:A point on las weaponry

Remus — GMT

The most important point of a lasgun is the ease of production as well as the simplicity of use. When operating a force as vast as the Imperial Guard it is essential to be able to actually arm each soldier. Plus the charge on the lasgun can be changed so guardsmen can turn the power up to insure killing shots or to pierce tougher armor.

Re:A point on las weaponry

ph34r — GMT

Just because a wound might theoretically be cauterized does not mean that it is possible to cauterize any internal organ or chest cavity. Or if you get hit in the arm, you are probably going to lose the arm.

Re:A point on las weaponry

Corporal_Reznov — GMT

I'll just leave these here:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=123079]Grand 40k sticky

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewforum.php?f=4&sid=cda00edc00ea32042e031d3cb2a0aee5
Scroll down and check other pages to find 40k analysis.

Here is one of the analysis that can be found on the second link:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=150910
It talks about Lasguns.

A point on las weaponry

Hellwolf — GMT

Las weapons explode on impact. If a lasgun were to hit an extremity (an arm or a leg) the actual entry point may be cauterized but everything from the wounded area down would disappear. Having an injury like that cauterized doesn't seem to be a comfort to me. If you didn't die you would fall over and bleed to death. If the shot hit you in the head or legs, its decapitation or having a hole blasted in the chest. You can decide if you'd like to lose a head, most of your internal organs or a limb. I should add that all these results only occur if the shot hits and makes it through the armor.

However, if you were inside a full metal armor suit (much like SM power armor) or inside a metal vehicle you are likely to superheat inside your armor, vehicle or any other item you are unlucky enough to be inside.

A point on las weaponry

Randomonioum — GMT

While the initial wound MAY be cauterised (may, it still needs to be pinched shut on anything but the smallest vessels), the resulting steam explosion isn't going to play ball. Blood gonna fall.

A point on las weaponry

liquidjoshi — GMT

Before DoW, the popular thought on Lasguns was they fired a bolt more like electricity, than superheated laser. Though I could be completely wrong about this.

A point on las weaponry

forruner_mercy — GMT

Pretty much everything said above. The rounds explode on impact.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:Assuming that lasguns and the like fire heated laser bolts, wouldnt this simply cauterize the wound as soon as it hit.

Actually it'd vaporize the blood it came into contact with, likely causing nasty wounds similar to hydrostatic shock as well as potentially nastier wounds than we normally see.

Burns can bleed.

A point on las weaponry

flota — GMT

yeah lasguns are not lightsabers

Re:A point on las weaponry

Nocturn — GMT

ph34r wrote:Just because a wound might theoretically be cauterized does not mean that it is possible to cauterize any internal organ or chest cavity. Or if you get hit in the arm, you are probably going to lose the arm.

"Yes it would, though many novels choose to believe otherwise.
It could still severely impede someone by completely cauterizing an artery, preventing bloodflow and leading to loss of limb."

And of course it's possible. Is it likely? No. But definitely possible.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So in the fluff, lasguns actually fire simmilar to a plasma gun? I thought only Catachans were capable of such badassery

A point on las weaponry

Nocturn — GMT

Not really. Plasma guns pretty much just fire a blob of superheated plasma, whereas lasguns are concentrated energy that is hitting at a single point

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Keep in mind that plasma is just another state of matter which is at a higher energy level than gas (which is at a higher energy level than liquid, which is higher than solids, which is higher than Bose-Einstein Condensates).

In fact, you don't even have to superheat gas to make it into plasma. Plasma Lamps use electricity instead of heat to create plasma states in specific gasses.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Oh, I get it. It's like shooting someone with an explosive hot poker

A point on las weaponry

Nocturn — GMT

It sounds more painful when you word it like that.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

I'm good with words

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Wow, that made me sound like more of a dick than I am

A point on las weaponry

ObliviousBlueCaboose — GMT

Melissia wrote:
TheAngrySquig wrote:Assuming that lasguns and the like fire heated laser bolts, wouldnt this simply cauterize the wound as soon as it hit.
Actually it'd vaporize the blood it came into contact with, likely causing nasty wounds similar to hydrostatic shock as well as potentially nastier wounds than we normally see.

Burns can bleed.

This is also what i've heard it would do.

However if its based off of a laser isnt most of the energy kinetic? I thought that was the point of the star wars program in the 80's. Use the lasers kinetic energy to damage the warheads since missile are pretty fragile.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

I think that it's not just a laser according to people here it's an explosive laser

A point on las weaponry

ObliviousBlueCaboose — GMT

I think they mean the heat from the lase causes the water in the target to rapidly boil and explode from within. Or at least that's what I'm assuming would cause an explosive effect.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

That is gruesomely awesome

A point on las weaponry

rob-or-ross — GMT

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Melissia wrote:
TheAngrySquig wrote:Assuming that lasguns and the like fire heated laser bolts, wouldnt this simply cauterize the wound as soon as it hit.
Actually it'd vaporize the blood it came into contact with, likely causing nasty wounds similar to hydrostatic shock as well as potentially nastier wounds than we normally see.

Burns can bleed.

This is also what i've heard it would do.

However if its based off of a laser isnt most of the energy kinetic? I thought that was the point of the star wars program in the 80's. Use the lasers kinetic energy to damage the warheads since missile are pretty fragile.

Not quite.

Kinetic energy is mass times speed.
Light is fast but has almost no mass (might as well be none) so it has negligible kinetic energy.

The energy it has is electromagnetic energy in the form of light.

The star wars program included lasers and particle accelerators.

A point on las weaponry

Randomonioum — GMT

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I think they mean the heat from the lase causes the water in the target to rapidly boil and explode from within. Or at least that's what I'm assuming would cause an explosive effect.

Thats exactly it.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

And here I was thinking only Catachans could be badass

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Randomonioum wrote:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I think they mean the heat from the lase causes the water in the target to rapidly boil and explode from within. Or at least that's what I'm assuming would cause an explosive effect.

Thats exactly it.

Yes. When something turns from liquid to gas, it expands. Even gasses which are natually gasses at room temperature tend to exert force against their container which is why they don't have a definite volume, they fill up as much as they can with the force the gas is exerting on its container). And the hotter a gas is, the more force it usually exerts.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So then how do lascannons work? Is it like a Spartan laser from halo or is like a mini deathstar cannon

A point on las weaponry

Brother Coa — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:So then how do lascannons work? Is it like a Spartan laser from halo or is like a mini deathstar cannon

Like Lasgun but 100x bigger.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So then they are capable of totally vaporizing Space Marines in power armor right

A point on las weaponry

Brother Coa — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:So then they are capable of totally vaporizing Space Marines in power armor right

Well power armor is quite strong, but unarmored marine - maybe not that but it can kill him in 1 shot. ( It's designed for vehicles after all )

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

A lascannon is, yes, technically capable of utterly vaporizing a Space Marine in Power Armor. The lascannon is an anti-tank weapon, after all.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So in fluff it wouldn't rip through a land raider, would it?

A point on las weaponry

Nocturn — GMT

Not a whole lot would straight up rip through a land raider, but it would definitely do some damage (discounting, of course, the lucky shots that happen to be blessed by the emperor).

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If you want land raider rippage, the demolisher is your friend.

Or melta weapons nice and close.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So it wouldn't be unrealistic for a Scout with a meltagun to jump out of a snow bank and blast through the side of a chaos land raider

A point on las weaponry

Void__Dragon — GMT

No, it would not be.

Why?

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

I was thinking about making a piece of fluff where a lone scout joined with an IG platoon to repel a chaos invasion, my original idea was to have a lascannon team blow a hole in a land raider and have the scout and commisar deal with the termies inside. Now I will change it to the scout blasting through and the commissar helPing him take care of the termies while some STs provide supporting fire. Not totally realistic, but pretty awesome.

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

Theoretically possible, though a squad of Terminators is more than a match for a lone Scout and a platoon of IG.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Yeah, but it would be awesome

A point on las weaponry

im2randomghgh — GMT

Jackster wrote:A lasgun shot can blow off a a person, or even penetrate weak points of a power armor, the trade off is worth it.

The weak parts of power armour AREN'T ARMOURED.

I could hit the weak points with a slingshot. Proves nothing.

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TheAngrySquig wrote:So it wouldn't be unrealistic for a Scout with a meltagun to jump out of a snow bank and blast through the side of a chaos land raider

Well the machine spirit would likely gun him down before he got there.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

im2randomghgh wrote:The weak parts of power armour AREN'T ARMOURED.

... yes they are.

In Deathwatch, the weak parts of the armor have two less armor value than the strongest parts. They're still stronge than any other kind of armor even in the weak spots.

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TheAngrySquig wrote:So then they are capable of totally vaporizing Space Marines in power armor right

Lascannons? Yes, they're pretty much enough to demolish any power armor that they directly hit, leaving a nice clean hole through most power armored opponents unless they're guarded by a force field of some kind. Though infantry-mounted lascannons aren't as hug as vehicle-mounted ones as far as actual area of effect...

A point on las weaponry

im2randomghgh — GMT

Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:The weak parts of power armour AREN'T ARMOURED.
... yes they are.

In Deathwatch, the weak parts of the armor have two less armor value than the strongest parts. They're still stronge than any other kind of armor even in the weak spots.

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TheAngrySquig wrote:So then they are capable of totally vaporizing Space Marines in power armor right
Lascannons? Yes, they're pretty much enough to demolish any power armor that they directly hit, leaving a nice clean hole through most power armored opponents unless they're guarded by a force field of some kind. Though infantry-mounted lascannons aren't as hug as vehicle-mounted ones as far as actual area of effect...

Well there is some annoying contradiction in fluff about that.

It is a fact that lascannon hit=something dies. But there have been stupid BL instances where terminators and even regular marines have shrugged off lascannons.

Just goes to show, BL=BS.

Also, in Deathwatch Space Marines do things that would make Matt Ward blush, it is just a game mechanic.

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

A table-top mini can, with lucky rolls, also shrug off a lascannon hit, so it's not just BL that contains such BS.

A point on las weaponry

Corporal_Reznov — GMT

Okay so BL is BS and table-top rules are BS. So what isn't BS to you guys then? Has anyone read the links I posted?

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Show evidence about how Deathwatch has things that would make Matt Ward blush? Terminator armour able to tank Lasscannon shots is not hard to believe seeing as these thing were originally designed for workers to be able to get near plasma reactors in starships or something like that and now modifeied for Space Marine's who are super-humans, meaning they are bigger, heavier, stronger, to take these kind of hits.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Does it differ between the heavy weapons teams the IG use and the ones mounted on dreadnoughts? Is it like, the bigger the wielder the bigger the shot?

A point on las weaponry

English Assassin — GMT

im2randomghgh wrote:
Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:The weak parts of power armour AREN'T ARMOURED.
... yes they are.

In Deathwatch, the weak parts of the armor have two less armor value than the strongest parts. They're still stronge than any other kind of armor even in the weak spots.

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TheAngrySquig wrote:So then they are capable of totally vaporizing Space Marines in power armor right
Lascannons? Yes, they're pretty much enough to demolish any power armor that they directly hit, leaving a nice clean hole through most power armored opponents unless they're guarded by a force field of some kind. Though infantry-mounted lascannons aren't as hug as vehicle-mounted ones as far as actual area of effect...

Well there is some annoying contradiction in fluff about that.

It is a fact that lascannon hit=something dies. But there have been stupid BL instances where terminators and even regular marines have shrugged off lascannons.

Just goes to show, BL=BS.

Also, in Deathwatch Space Marines do things that would make Matt Ward blush, it is just a game mechanic.

Much as I disagree with the implication that we should accept Fantasy Flight's stuff as canonical, it would be, in this instance, be reasonable (and consistent with pretty much all fluff) to assume that the joints of a suit of power armour are 'armoured' in the sense that they're presumably made of, oh I don't know what to call it, rubberized ceramite sounds plausible, but, since they must be flexible, will be weaker than the plates.

So far as lascannons go, Black Library probably don't let more than one Marine in six survive direct hits from them, do they?

A point on las weaponry

Corporal_Reznov — GMT

English Assassin wrote:
Much as I disagree with the implication that we should accept Fantasy Flight's stuff as canonical, it would be, in this instance, be reasonable (and consistent with pretty much all fluff) to assume that the joints of a suit of power armour are 'armoured' in the sense that they're presumably made of, oh I don't know what to call it, rubberized ceramite sounds plausible, but, since they must be flexible, will be weaker than the plates.

So far as lascannons go, Black Library probably don't let more than one Marine in six survive direct hits from them, do they?

Why do you take the position that FFG fluff is non-canon? Are you one of those "all is non-canon except for the holy codexes"?

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

I would like it to be noted that I am not involved with the upcoming flame war

A point on las weaponry

English Assassin — GMT

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why do you take the position that FFG fluff is non-canon? Are you one of those "all is non-canon except for the holy codexes"?

Fantasy Flight make assumptions and draw inferences from the studio's established material which are, at times, at variance with other valid - and often more interesting - ones; their insistence, contrary to (admittedly old) Games Workshop material that Orks cannot be corrupted by the warp, for instance. I'm not advocating that we should ignore FFG's material, but it is at best deuterocanonical.

On a related note, I doubt many people get het up over whether Flame Industries and Hogshead Publishing's roleplaying supplements are canonical or not.

A point on las weaponry

Kanluwen — GMT

Sorry, where has GW said that Orks can't be corrupted by the Warp?

Because GW has had statements that Orks can be possessed, or even worship the Ruinous Powers(albeit unknowingly) and gain favor from them.

Most notably is Codex: Daemonhunters.
It's not a conscious effort on the Orks' part, but Orks are not necessarily immune to the touch of the Warp. The fact that they have Weirdboyz is proof enough of that.

A point on las weaponry

English Assassin — GMT

Other way around, FFG say they can't be, my precious Rogue Trader hardbacks say they can.

Edit: otherwise, yes, what you said.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

http://cdnimg.visualizeus.com/thumbs/d8/b5/comic,paper,rock,scissors,humor,stop,fighting-d8b596ddef4b8a1311165df5789f45aa_h.jpg

Re:A point on las weaponry

Corporal_Reznov — GMT

Rogue Trader rpg: Into the Storm pg 61 wrote:KAOS AN’ KURRUPSHUN

Orks in service to the Chaos Gods, or even succumbing to the corrupting influence of the Warp, are so rare as to be essentially
unheard of. Simply put, Orks aren’t easily tempted to Chaos and they’re far more resistant to the warping influence of Chaos
than humans, for reasons that nobody has been able to accurately define. Consequently, Orks don’t gain Corruption Points.

The race is resistant to Chaos due to their nature which is proven by their invasion of a daemon world without suffering the after-effects as described in the codexes.

Most of your sources are ancient and thus pointless seeing as Matt Ward who writes for a codex has retconned 10 years of fluff saying Grey Knights don't fight beside Daemonhosts. Thus old sources are still canon as long as they haven't been retconned by new sources which is FFG material and new codexes.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

My PDFs, THEY DO NOTHING

A point on las weaponry

Corporal_Reznov — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:My PDFs, THEY DO NOTHING

What? If you mean your link. I have to say I'm not fighting anyone or looking for a fight so calm down.

Anyway, if you read my little snippet. It clearly said "almost" which means Chaos corrupted Orks can exist, its just that they're no different from normal Orks in behavior which is kill everyone.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Lol I'm not actually that mad, my shift key just gets stuck sometimes and makes me look angry. Also it was a link to a PDF cause I'm dumb and can't figure out how to put in just the picture

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

English Assassin wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why do you take the position that FFG fluff is non-canon? Are you one of those "all is non-canon except for the holy codexes"?

Fantasy Flight make assumptions and draw inferences from the studio's established material

Many FFG writers are also GW writers. Including rather famous ones.

Like Andy Hoare.

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English Assassin wrote:Other way around, FFG say they can't be, my precious Rogue Trader hardbacks say they can.

Rogue Trader is no longer purely canon It's like looking at a rough draft of the hobbit and claiming t hat this was the exact same world that Tolkien envisioned in the days before his death.

A point on las weaponry

Your Friend Doctor Robert — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:So then how do lascannons work? Is it like a Spartan laser from halo or is like a mini deathstar cannon

A Lascannon is what's known as a Pulse Laser; rather than a constant beam of fire, it just fires one burst that's absolutely packed with energy, which is why the Lascannon doesn't have the Lance rule.

Also, Lasguns would only Cauterize the wound they hit if they use Infrared light or something near that; if the light is, say, Ultraviolet, the las beam could simply slice straight through you.

A point on las weaponry

Void__Dragon — GMT

English Assassin wrote:Other way around, FFG say they can't be, my precious Rogue Trader hardbacks say they can.

Edit: otherwise, yes, what you said.

FFG says that they are more resistant to Chaos corruption than humans are, not immune. There is a distinct difference.

Sure, in mechanical terms, FFG decided the phenomenon is so rare that it might as well be impossible (And they're not wrong to think that, how often do you hear of Orks falling to Chaos? And it's not hard to explain, they have the backing of two deities more powerful than even the Chaos Gods), and as such decided they don't accrue corruption points.

I don't really see a contradiction.

A point on las weaponry

Corporal_Reznov — GMT

Void__Dragon wrote:
English Assassin wrote:Other way around, FFG say they can't be, my precious Rogue Trader hardbacks say they can.

Edit: otherwise, yes, what you said.

FFG says that they are more resistant to Chaos corruption than humans are, not immune. There is a distinct difference.

Sure, in mechanical terms, FFG decided the phenomenon is so rare that it might as well be impossible (And they're not wrong to think that, how often do you hear of Orks falling to Chaos? And it's not hard to explain, they have the backing of two deities more powerful than even the Chaos Gods), and as such decided they don't accrue corruption points.

I don't really see a contradiction.

I bow before you Void_Dragon for explaining the situation better than I could, due to problems with my internet. Yes, as far as i can tell there are no contradictions other than ones people made in their minds. Hell, isn't their fluff that states the Orks gods in the Warp are invincible?

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

How did we get from lasguns to this again? Not saying I don't absolutely love this but how did we manage that? Congratulations Dakka members, we're awesome.

A point on las weaponry

Corporal_Reznov — GMT

English Assassin wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:The weak parts of power armour AREN'T ARMOURED.
... yes they are.

In Deathwatch, the weak parts of the armor have two less armor value than the strongest parts. They're still stronge than any other kind of armor even in the weak spots.

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TheAngrySquig wrote:So then they are capable of totally vaporizing Space Marines in power armor right
Lascannons? Yes, they're pretty much enough to demolish any power armor that they directly hit, leaving a nice clean hole through most power armored opponents unless they're guarded by a force field of some kind. Though infantry-mounted lascannons aren't as hug as vehicle-mounted ones as far as actual area of effect...

Well there is some annoying contradiction in fluff about that.

It is a fact that lascannon hit=something dies. But there have been stupid BL instances where terminators and even regular marines have shrugged off lascannons.

Just goes to show, BL=BS.

Also, in Deathwatch Space Marines do things that would make Matt Ward blush, it is just a game mechanic.

Much as I disagree with the implication that we should accept Fantasy Flight's stuff as canonical, it would be, in this instance, be reasonable (and consistent with pretty much all fluff) to assume that the joints of a suit of power armour are 'armoured' in the sense that they're presumably made of, oh I don't know what to call it, rubberized ceramite sounds plausible, but, since they must be flexible, will be weaker than the plates.

So far as lascannons go, Black Library probably don't let more than one Marine in six survive direct hits from them, do they?

Of course the joints would be 'armored' but with a rubber like armor material instead of metallic armor so that the Marine can move. Its common sense.

Re:A point on las weaponry

Skal098 — GMT

There is an illness you can get once being shot with a lasgun, it related to me as some sort of blood poisoning.

A point on las weaponry

Brother Coa — GMT

There is an illness when you get hiy by Las shot, it's called death.

A point on las weaponry

rob-or-ross — GMT

Your Friend Doctor Robert wrote:
TheAngrySquig wrote:So then how do lascannons work? Is it like a Spartan laser from halo or is like a mini deathstar cannon
A Lascannon is what's known as a Pulse Laser; rather than a constant beam of fire, it just fires one burst that's absolutely packed with energy, which is why the Lascannon doesn't have the Lance rule.

Also, Lasguns would only Cauterize the wound they hit if they use Infrared light or something near that; if the light is, say, Ultraviolet, the las beam could simply slice straight through you.

Your physics is broken.
It doesn't matter if the light is visible or not. If it is absorbed by your body it turns into heat.
UV, IR and visibleare all capable of cauterising. Whether it does or not is another matter, it's more of a steam explosion.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
English Assassin wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Melissia wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:The weak parts of power armour AREN'T ARMOURED.
... yes they are.

In Deathwatch, the weak parts of the armor have two less armor value than the strongest parts. They're still stronge than any other kind of armor even in the weak spots.

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TheAngrySquig wrote:So then they are capable of totally vaporizing Space Marines in power armor right
Lascannons? Yes, they're pretty much enough to demolish any power armor that they directly hit, leaving a nice clean hole through most power armored opponents unless they're guarded by a force field of some kind. Though infantry-mounted lascannons aren't as hug as vehicle-mounted ones as far as actual area of effect...

Well there is some annoying contradiction in fluff about that.

It is a fact that lascannon hit=something dies. But there have been stupid BL instances where terminators and even regular marines have shrugged off lascannons.

Just goes to show, BL=BS.

Also, in Deathwatch Space Marines do things that would make Matt Ward blush, it is just a game mechanic.

Much as I disagree with the implication that we should accept Fantasy Flight's stuff as canonical, it would be, in this instance, be reasonable (and consistent with pretty much all fluff) to assume that the joints of a suit of power armour are 'armoured' in the sense that they're presumably made of, oh I don't know what to call it, rubberized ceramite sounds plausible, but, since they must be flexible, will be weaker than the plates.

So far as lascannons go, Black Library probably don't let more than one Marine in six survive direct hits from them, do they?
Of course the joints would be 'armored' but with a rubber like armor material instead of metallic armor so that the Marine can move. Its common sense.

Yes. I can't remember if it was RT or 2 ed but in one of my old books there was an in depth description of how power armour works and the bit that boosted strength was a synthetic muscle. It covered the whole body and gave an armour effect. The plates went on top of that. A weak point would then be a bit without plates but with synthetic muscle.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Or it could just be where interlocking plates meet.

A point on las weaponry

ObliviousBlueCaboose — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:How did we get from lasguns to this again? Not saying I don't absolutely love this but how did we manage that? Congratulations Dakka members, we're awesome.

..

People started arguing about the weak points in a sm armor be unarmored or not and someone brought up deathwatch.

Brother Coa wrote:There is an illness when you get hiy by Las shot, it's called death.

.
I hear that can be quite serious if left untreated...

Isnt the color of a laser determined by its frequency, hence its power? Like blu ray is more powerful then red red ect? So would the color of a lasgun bolt indicate its power level? or would it be purely cosmetic?

Wouldn't lasguns be pulse lasers also? They don't fire constant beams of light.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Correct, they'd be pulse. It's cutting lasers and lances that are stream weapons.

Both of which the Imperium has I should note, but lances aren't weaponized outside of space platforms (lance batteries), and cutting lasers aren't really weaponized at all, though they certainly can be used as a weapon they're rather unwieldy.

A point on las weaponry

rob-or-ross — GMT

Yes a single UV photon has more energy than a single IR photon but the power of a laser is about how many photons there are.
Given red and green lasers of the same energy the green will have fewer, higher energy photons.
The point it projects will look brighter since the human eye is more sensitive to the colour green.

Re:A point on las weaponry

Harrower — GMT

In theory, cauterising should be irrelevant on lasguns.
They should noty actually slice or do normal wounds at all.

A weapon level pulsed laser (like a lasgun, not a beam) would have to impart a huge amount of energy in a tiny amount of time, into a very small area. When you do that, stuff doesn't "heat up" or cut. It explodes. Badly.
As an example, a 1 Megajoule laser pulse would have the same effect (or amount of energy at least) as 200 grams of TNT.

I don't know what kind of power lasguns have, but I suspect the effects would, in reality, be very messy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, for the more scientific among you, here is an interesting discussion on possible power levels for lasguns:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=106186&sid=998a1080693905de297a22063e91c4b8

(Well, I say interesting, it's actually incredibly sad like most stuff on stardestroyer.net, but it interests ME, as it lets me get my geek on).

Re:A point on las weaponry

Corporal_Reznov — GMT

Harrower wrote:In theory, cauterising should be irrelevant on lasguns.
They should noty actually slice or do normal wounds at all.

A weapon level pulsed laser (like a lasgun, not a beam) would have to impart a huge amount of energy in a tiny amount of time, into a very small area. When you do that, stuff doesn't "heat up" or cut. It explodes. Badly.
As an example, a 1 Megajoule laser pulse would have the same effect (or amount of energy at least) as 200 grams of TNT.

I don't know what kind of power lasguns have, but I suspect the effects would, in reality, be very messy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Btw, for the more scientific among you, here is an interesting discussion on possible power levels for lasguns:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=106186&sid=998a1080693905de297a22063e91c4b8

(Well, I say interesting, it's actually incredibly sad like most stuff on stardestroyer.net, but it interests ME, as it lets me get my geek on).

You should also check this out as its a newer posts and revisions by th SD.net: http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=150910

Why do you consider what they do sad? They are doing what they love and enjoy as a hobby just like you do what you love for a hobby.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Is their a difference between the Catachan Cadian Vostroyan and Vallhalan lasguns relative to power? I always imagined the Catachan as needing more power to go through underbrush and the like, Cadian being average, Vostroyan being the cheapest to produce, and Vallhalan being the same as Catachan, only to burst through ice not forest

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Vostroyan Firstborn are actually the highest quality ones, not the cheapest. Each one is hand-crafted and decorated lovingly by their family and friends before they're shipped off.

Catachans likely use shorter versions, perhaps bullpups or carbines, for mobility purposes, a locally produced carbine version of the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun is likely.

Cadians use (and Kanluwen will likely correct me on this if I'm wrong) either the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun or a variation thereof produced locally.

Valhallans... I'm not sure. The Cain books didn't mention any notable differences, so probably a local variation of the Mars Pattern Short Lasgun.

Krieg lasguns are longer and have more power, almost like bolt action rifles, always firing on the highest setting.

Tanith 1st and Only use several kinds (favoring the lasguns that were locally produced at Tanith before its death), mostly using lasguns with a specific type of battery which has caused supply problems.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Thanks and is this from the codex because I leafed through and couldn't find it?

A point on las weaponry

Corporal_Reznov — GMT

Isn't the M-class Lasgun the supposed main class of Lasgun in the galaxy?

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Sorry for the noob but, whats the M-class?

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Isn't the M-class Lasgun the supposed main class of Lasgun in the galaxy?

The Mars-Pattern Short Lasgun is the standard lasgun of the Imperial Guard.

This from the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifiting Primer.

A point on las weaponry

Corporal_Reznov — GMT

Melissia wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Isn't the M-class Lasgun the supposed main class of Lasgun in the galaxy?
The Mars-Pattern Short Lasgun is the standard lasgun of the Imperial Guard.

This from the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifiting Primer.

M-class could refer to Mars class? Thanks for the info anyway.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So its the same as with titans? Mars pattern is most widely used, but there are some varients like the Lucius etc.

A point on las weaponry

im2randomghgh — GMT

rob-or-ross wrote:Yes a single UV photon has more energy than a single IR photon but the power of a laser is about how many photons there are.
Given red and green lasers of the same energy the green will have fewer, higher energy photons.
The point it projects will look brighter since the human eye is more sensitive to the colour green.

Actually, you wouldn't see the colours by virtue of the beam is moving at the speed of light, unless it was both a lance and within our spectrum, in which case it would ACTUALLY BE a flashlight.

This is clearly how light works

Re:A point on las weaponry

Harrower — GMT

Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why do you consider what they do sad? They are doing what they love and enjoy as a hobby just like you do what you love for a hobby.

Thanks, i'll check that newer link out!

I'm not criticising....I find it very interesting myself, as I said, and it's very impressive maths.
But i'm sorry, working out science for imaginary guns IS sad, if awesome.

And fyi, i'm absolutely NOT saying their hobby is in any way worse than mine. I play imaginary space wars with tiny toy soldiers, using the made up guns they do maths for.

Honestly, i'd say we're pretty even

Re:A point on las weaponry

Corporal_Reznov — GMT

Harrower wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Why do you consider what they do sad? They are doing what they love and enjoy as a hobby just like you do what you love for a hobby.

Thanks, i'll check that newer link out!

I'm not criticising....I find it very interesting myself, as I said, and it's very impressive maths.
But i'm sorry, working out science for imaginary guns IS sad, if awesome.

And fyi, i'm absolutely NOT saying their hobby is in any way worse than mine. I play imaginary space wars with tiny toy soldiers, using the made up guns they do maths for.

Honestly, i'd say we're pretty even

True . These guys your reading are the survivors of the great flame wars between Trekkies and Warsies over Star Wars vs. Star Trek. It was preety sad to watch these guys invest so much effort into their hobby but the flame wars were fun to watch .

Anyway, read the link that you posted as well as the new link I posted as you need those two links and their content to understand all the situations and examples used as well as how the analyser calced the calcs. Have fun reading.

ps: They also analyze Imperial Armour over there.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Corporal_Reznov wrote:Isn't the M-class Lasgun the supposed main class of Lasgun in the galaxy?
The Mars-Pattern Short Lasgun is the standard lasgun of the Imperial Guard.

This from the Imperial Infantryman's Uplifiting Primer.
M-class could refer to Mars class? Thanks for the info anyway.

I have no clue what "m-class" means. I do not think it is actual 40k terminology. Differing types of weapons are called "patterns", such as Ryza Pattern Plasmagun.

A point on las weaponry

Lynata — GMT

GW books describe it as the "M-G pattern" or "M-Galaxy pattern" lasgun, probably referring to the Milky Way, which is the galaxy containing the Imperium.

There's also a "Mars pattern", though. No idea if they just changed the name there at some point in time (M-G could then refer to Mars-Gamma?), or if they are two different models.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Yeah-- pattern, not class. Class might refer to a non-technical term for it, but the technical term in 40k is pattern, as in, "pattern of manufacture".

A point on las weaponry

rob-or-ross — GMT

im2randomghgh wrote:
rob-or-ross wrote:Yes a single UV photon has more energy than a single IR photon but the power of a laser is about how many photons there are.
Given red and green lasers of the same energy the green will have fewer, higher energy photons.
The point it projects will look brighter since the human eye is more sensitive to the colour green.

Actually, you wouldn't see the colours by virtue of the beam is moving at the speed of light, unless it was both a lance and within our spectrum, in which case it would ACTUALLY BE a flashlight.

This is clearly how light works:

Sorry, are you saying that you can't see light because it moves at the speed of light?

If you look at what I wrote and you quoted you will see that I specifically mentioned red and green to illustrate my point since they are the two most commonly available laser pointer colours.
I also mentioned the projected point and not the beam.

Obviously you can't see the beam of a laser unless it is pointing directly into your eye. Unless some of that light scatters off dust or smoke particles.

Now, if that laser is made of IR or UV light then all those same things will happen but we won't see the light.

It is the same reason that IR lasers are among the most dangerous you can get because IR light doesn't stimulate the blink reflex.
If someone shines a 5mW green laser in your eye you will blink and your retina won't be damaged.
If someone does the same with an IR laser you won't blink and your retina could be burned to a crisp.

Anyway, if words lose their meaning in the imperium as easily as they do in our current world then by the 41st millennium "Lasgun" could mean literally anything.
It could be a Maser, GRaser or XRaser for all we know...

A point on las weaponry

im2randomghgh — GMT

rob-or-ross wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
rob-or-ross wrote:Yes a single UV photon has more energy than a single IR photon but the power of a laser is about how many photons there are.
Given red and green lasers of the same energy the green will have fewer, higher energy photons.
The point it projects will look brighter since the human eye is more sensitive to the colour green.

Actually, you wouldn't see the colours by virtue of the beam is moving at the speed of light, unless it was both a lance and within our spectrum, in which case it would ACTUALLY BE a flashlight.

This is clearly how light works:

Sorry, are you saying that you can't see light because it moves at the speed of light?

If you look at what I wrote and you quoted you will see that I specifically mentioned red and green to illustrate my point since they are the two most commonly available laser pointer colours.
I also mentioned the projected point and not the beam.

Obviously you can't see the beam of a laser unless it is pointing directly into your eye. Unless some of that light scatters off dust or smoke particles.

Now, if that laser is made of IR or UV light then all those same things will happen but we won't see the light.

It is the same reason that IR lasers are among the most dangerous you can get because IR light doesn't stimulate the blink reflex.
If someone shines a 5mW green laser in your eye you will blink and your retina won't be damaged.
If someone does the same with an IR laser you won't blink and your retina could be burned to a crisp.

Anyway, if words lose their meaning in the imperium as easily as they do in our current world then by the 41st millennium "Lasgun" could mean literally anything.
It could be a Maser, GRaser or XRaser for all we know...

On that last point, I am wondering what type of laser they would be using. COIL seems vaguely plausible. Any other theories?

A point on las weaponry

TrollPie — GMT

im2randomghgh wrote:
rob-or-ross wrote:Yes a single UV photon has more energy than a single IR photon but the power of a laser is about how many photons there are.
Given red and green lasers of the same energy the green will have fewer, higher energy photons.
The point it projects will look brighter since the human eye is more sensitive to the colour green.

Actually, you wouldn't see the colours by virtue of the beam is moving at the speed of light, unless it was both a lance and within our spectrum, in which case it would ACTUALLY BE a flashlight.

You wouldn't see the beam because unless you're really unlucky the laser doesn't reach your eye. Real lasers would be like laser pointers, with a single bright spot where the light originates and another spot where it hits. Unless there's smoke or something inbetween to scatter the beam you wouldn't see it. No need to bring the speed of the thing in to it.

Edit: Didn't see rob or ross's post.

A point on las weaponry

im2randomghgh — GMT

TrollPie wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
rob-or-ross wrote:Yes a single UV photon has more energy than a single IR photon but the power of a laser is about how many photons there are.
Given red and green lasers of the same energy the green will have fewer, higher energy photons.
The point it projects will look brighter since the human eye is more sensitive to the colour green.

Actually, you wouldn't see the colours by virtue of the beam is moving at the speed of light, unless it was both a lance and within our spectrum, in which case it would ACTUALLY BE a flashlight.

You wouldn't see the beam because unless you're really unlucky the laser doesn't reach your eye. Real lasers would be like laser pointers, with a single bright spot where the light originates and another spot where it hits. Unless there's smoke or something inbetween to scatter the beam you wouldn't see it. No need to bring the speed of the thing in to it.

Edit: Didn't see rob or ross's post.

Yeah, I was just having trouble phrasing it. English isn't my native language :$

A point on las weaponry

rob-or-ross — GMT

Hey, don't worry about it.
Your English is better than a lot of posts I've seen from people who claim it as a first language.

COIL lasers are interesting but the technology doesn't lend itself well to a portable weapon.
It contains a chemical reaction producing Oxygen in a special state that has to be pumped through the lasing chamber a extremely high flow rates.
The frequency of light it produces is useful for attacking metal but the system wouldn't fit in a self contained weapon.

Who knows what kind of solid state laser systems they'll have in the future?

A point on las weaponry

im2randomghgh — GMT

rob-or-ross wrote:Hey, don't worry about it.
Your English is better than a lot of posts I've seen from people who claim it as a first language.

COIL lasers are interesting but the technology doesn't lend itself well to a portable weapon.
It contains a chemical reaction producing Oxygen in a special state that has to be pumped through the lasing chamber a extremely high flow rates.
The frequency of light it produces is useful for attacking metal but the system wouldn't fit in a self contained weapon.

Who knows what kind of solid state laser systems they'll have in the future?

I was just thinking with the COIL that with their mastery of lasers in the IoM, they could have down sized? Because their lasers seem to be of mid-level effectiveness against flesh, but quite good against non-necron metals in the fluff, and COIL lasers would fit this description.

Re:A point on las weaponry

Connor MacLeod — GMT

Whether or not a lasweapon cauterizes or not depends on alot of factors: the manner in which the energy is delievered (how it is concentrated or not concentrated, speed/duration of the delivery of the energy, the nature of the target, the quantity of energy, etc.) Las weapons in fluff don't always cauterize - in fact sometimes they don't even cause burning - they will let a target bleed out. Other times they are heat ray weapons (EG they inflict burns). Some may only drill a hole through a target. Others may slice and dice. Some may behave like a flamethrower (like in legion - variable aperture.) Some will cause explosive effects at the target area in some manner or another (or explosive vaporization if you prefer, or steam explosion, or whatnot.) Some may actually combine those qualities (the Inquisitor RPG described lasweapons as burning aND exploding...)

It also depends alot on what you think a las weapon is too. Some examples aren't even lasers (depends on the author and the source.)

A point on las weaponry

king-newmic — GMT

Alright, hehe i've got a good Lasgun question:
Seeing as we know the 2 main forms of Las-weaponry power levels, the Lascannon and the Lasgun, how do the other 3 forms of Las weaponary play into the spectrum?
-the Multilaser
-the Hellgun/ Hellpistol
-the Hotshot Lasgun/ Laspistol

I am particularly interested in how the Hotshot and the Multilaser work as they fall outside of the basic pattern of more power= more penetration. Anyone got any ideas?

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

The multi-laser is a multi-barreled weapon powered by large, disposable power cells. It's generally a vehicle-mounted weapon. As with most other lasweapons, size matters... at least, in so far as the power cell is concerned. Bigger power cells mean more power to the shot. The Multilaser is, basically, the mini-gun or Vulcan cannon of the laser-weapon world. It is weaker than a lascannon, but offers a much higher rate of fire, and is significantly more powerful than a standard lasgun.

The Hellgun and Hellpistol are extremely advanced, high-quality laser weapons carried almost exclusively by Imperial Stormtrooper regiments. They are powered by backpack-mounted power supplies, which offer greater range, damage and penetration capabilities to the weapons. They are, compared to the standard lasgun, hell on wheels. They are being very slowly phased into the rest of the IG Munitorum supply chain. Eventually, hellguns will be the standard weapon of the IG.

The Hotshot variant of the lasgun is less a modification of the weapon and more a modification of its powercell, though this can vary depending on the source you are reading. In some sources, a "hotshot" powercell can be used in a standard lasgun and provides more damage and armor penetration at a much lower number of potential shots. Some sources state that a hotshot cell contains enough charge for a single, high-power, long-range shot for penetrating high-armor targets.

Other sources state that the hotshot lasgun is a sniper-variant of the lasgun, offering all the things a sniper weapon does: greater range, higher penetration, significant damage at a reduced rate of fire and lower ammo supply.

A point on las weaponry

ObliviousBlueCaboose — GMT

Okay, where are you getting the info on the hellguns being phased into being standard ig use. Please forgive my skepticism. But one, the lasgun is easier to manufacture, and maintain. 2. Doubtful GW would change the iconic lasgun. But if you got sources then i'd love the idea of having ap5 lasguns.
Feth your armor saves geq.

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

The Stormtrooper class description and Hellgun/Hellpistol weapon descriptions in Dark Heresy: Ascension.

A point on las weaponry

Void__Dragon — GMT

Psienesis wrote:The Stormtrooper class description and Hellgun/Hellpistol weapon descriptions in Dark Heresy: Ascension.

Where? What page? Just skimmed it and must of missed it.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

I thought Stormtroopers had Hot-shots?

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

Nope, hell-guns. Just like the Kasrkin. They might have had hotshots back in the days of yore, but modern fluff puts hellguns in their hands.

Can't quote a page reference on the Ascension bit, I don't have the book on hand at the moment.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

I thought the Kasrkin were STs?

A point on las weaponry

Coolyo294 — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:I thought the Kasrkin were STs?

Kasrkrins are similar to ST, but still different.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Oh yall are talking about the guys in the not WD Witch Hunters dex.

Re:A point on las weaponry

Connor MacLeod — GMT

I would just keep classifications simple, insofar as fluff goes. A laspistol is a single handed las weapon. Lasguns (or rifles) are two handed lasweapons. Hellpistols and hellguns follow the same definition, just add "more advanced". Lascarbine is "compact two hand lasweapon.) Multilasers are (rapid fire antipersonnel/antivehicle las weapon) Lascannon are "anti-armour" las weapons.

That's probably as precise as you will get. Variations in power pack, in design configuration (EG long-las, carbines, etc.), rates of fire, range, weight, and charge settings all make classifying lasweapons a tad messy (does a lasgun on maximum power classify as a full power round like 7.62mm NATO or does it qualify as an intermediate round like 5.56mm NATO, for example)

A point on las weaponry

Lynata — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:I thought Stormtroopers had Hot-shots?

They do - the two terms get used interchangeably. The 5E Codex flat-out uses both in the same wargear textbox. I suppose one could be the official term whereas the other is a nickname? Otherwise it's a mistake or a retcon, but I choose to go with the nickname.
It was never issued large scale to the Guard because the internal cooling mechanisms required to keep the weapon working are far more complex and maintenance-intensive than the sturdy lasgun, but for the more elite (and better-supported) Storm Troopers they're good.

As for the different ST types, there's:
- the one Imperial Guard Storm Trooper regiment, 10.000 guys tops, get deployed in company to battalion size all over the Imperium, high attrition rate but gets a steady supply of new recruits from the Schola
- Inquisition Storm Troopers, unknown number, same training and equipment as the IG STs, reserved for use by the Inquisition (act as Kill Teams, bodyguards or as warden on the Black Ships)
- Grenadiers, basically Storm Troopers light, much more numerous and are firmly integrated into their homeworld's regiments
- Kasrkin, officially Cadian Grenadiers, unknown number (but seems to be a lot more than the "real" ST regiment according to the 13th Black Crusade Force Composition Chart), similar to ISTs their training and equipment is said to be on par with IG ST

Of course, all of the above is only insofar GW is concerned (2E and 5E Guard Codices).

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

For reference, the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are the top X% of the stormtrooper regiments.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

I see, so the guard train them and the =I= pick up the best and train them harder?

A point on las weaponry

Brother Coa — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:I see, so the guard train them and the =I= pick up the best and train them harder?

That's the idea

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

On a related note, does Deathwatch give any additional training or does it just take already expert xeno killers?

A point on las weaponry

im2randomghgh — GMT

Lynata wrote:
TheAngrySquig wrote:I thought Stormtroopers had Hot-shots?
They do - the two terms get used interchangeably. The 5E Codex flat-out uses both in the same wargear textbox. I suppose one could be the official term whereas the other is a nickname? Otherwise it's a mistake or a retcon, but I choose to go with the nickname.
It was never issued large scale to the Guard because the internal cooling mechanisms required to keep the weapon working are far more complex and maintenance-intensive than the sturdy lasgun, but for the more elite (and better-supported) Storm Troopers they're good.

Well it depends on the source. In Gaunt's Ghosts it seems that the hot shot is a lasgun loaded with special ammunition, and in some it seems to be a specialised lasgun variant, whereas the Hell Gun seems to be a weapon in and of itself.

Idk though, as with everything else, there is conflict between sources.

Plus I am no IG expert but I personally believe they are different.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheAngrySquig wrote:On a related note, does Deathwatch give any additional training or does it just take already expert xeno killers?

Just takes the experts. That is why there are so many Crimson Fists (Ork Fighters) and Scythes of the Emperor (Tyranid Bio-Ship boarding specialists) among them.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

And so few Squats?

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

The Squats are a) extinct and b) Not Space Marines. They wouldn't get to join the Deathwatch even if they were still alive.

A point on las weaponry

Lynata — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:I see, so the guard train them and the =I= pick up the best and train them harder?

Mhm, the Schola Progenium itself is an Ecclesiarchal institution. Studio material makes no mention of how deeply the Departmento Munitorum is involved with it, but I suppose it is likely that progena get drilled by Guard/ST veterans.

According to the 3E Witch Hunter Codex, however, the ISTs are not recruited out of the Imperial Guard's Storm Trooper regiment but rather from a common source - the Schola. If one would follow the wording exactly, the separation seems to come even before their actual "career" training begins, essentially making it a nigh-identical parallel program. However, sometimes the ranks of the ISTs are also joined by "outsiders" approved by the Inquisition due to a history of service in their bloodline:

"Recruited from the Schola Progenium and certain families with a tradition of service to the Inquisition, these Storm Troopers are equipped and trained in a similar fashion to the elite Storm Troopers of the Imperial Guard. Storm Troopers undertake rigorous purity and incorruptability tests before they are permitted to bear the Inquisitorial mark, making them preferable for use in Witch Hunter forces where the number of Adepta Sororitas available may be insufficient."

TheAngrySquig wrote:On a related note, does Deathwatch give any additional training or does it just take already expert xeno killers?

I'd suspect it is a bit of both. Deathwatch Marines are volunteers (and I think most Chapters would only send Battle Brothers they deem suitable out of Chapter-honour), yet they also receive additional training upon arrival.

"Deathwatch members are volunteers from Space Marine Chapters that rigidly adhere to the Codex Astartes. Because teams are made up of battle brothers from several Chapters, it is essential they follow a similar doctrine. On the Eastern Fringe of the Imperium, the Inquisitorial Fortress at Talasa Prime has recruited, trained, and equipped Kill Teams from the Ultramarines, Scythes of the Emperor, and Lamenters Chapters for service against the Tyranids."
- from the CA Deathwatch Kill-Team rules

im2randomghgh wrote:Idk though, as with everything else, there is conflict between sources.

Very much so - all of the above is only insofar GW is concerned.

I'm not trying to claim stuff about canonicity anymore, I'll simply post the stuff that studio material has established. Everyone can decide for himself if he wants to roll with that or if he prefers some outsourced/licensed product.

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

but I suppose it is likely that progena get drilled by Guard/ST veterans.

These men are called Drill Abbots, and I gather, from what FFG and BL fluff exists about them, that these men are IG veterans who later joined the Frateris Militia or another Ecclesiarchal body, or were selected straight out of the IG, as drill sergeants for the youth of the Schola Progena.

Their class lead-in text in FFG's Blood of Martyrs is hilarious.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So they are just like grimdark versions of R. Lee Ermy

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Actually the Deathwatch DOES do specialized training. On top of taking only veterans.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So Veterans with special training and special equipment... LIKE A BOSS

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Essentially, yeah. The Deathwatch rpg mentions that the recruits even at base xp level are veterans.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Is Deathwatch the game any good?

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

Yeah it's pretty fun, especially if you wanted to play an RPG as a Space Marine enjoying all the best aspects of being a Fluff Marine. There's nothing "Only Human" about you... you are, truly, one of the God-Emperor's Angels of Death.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

How does it compare to Dark Heresy, me and my FLGG are thinking of starting something like that up

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

The mechanics are identical, for the most part, with the added system of "Squad Cohesion" which allows members of the kill-team to function either as stand-alone Marines or to grant bonuses and effects to themselves and other team-mates as long as they are in Squad Mode, which requires them to be either within a certain range of each other, performing certain actions, and so forth. This is expressed as a pool of points that can be lost or regained by different methods.

The gear is much more powerful than that carried by Dark Heresy retinues, and the enemies much, much nastier. I won't put my DH group up against most of the things in DW without having an NPC Kill-Team on hand, or allowing the Retinue to gather several cannon-fodder allies.

Otherwise? It's like Dark Heresy on steroids, at least in the gun battles. Space Marines are not detectives in the way that an Inquisitor and her retinue is.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

They actually went overboard and had to release a FAQ weakening the Deathwatch weapons to more fluff-consistent levels.

The original marine weapons are closer to movie marines, while the faq'd weapons are essentially very high quality non-astartes weapons (slightly more damage and pen and more relaible usually, IIRC).

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Do you still get to pick career paths and if so are they like DH or are they Tactical, Assault, Devastator and whatnot?

Re:A point on las weaponry

Lynata — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:Is Deathwatch the game any good?

Really depends on what you're looking for.

When Dark Heresy is "Cthulhu 40k", Deathwatch is basically "Exalted". It's the same basic mechanics as DH and RT, the characters just get a ton of special rules making them stronger/tougher and their enemies weaker to provide a more "epic" experience with a way higher kill count. The term Movie Marines is quite accurate, I think, even with the errata'd weapons.

I wouldn't recommend crossovers at all (normal humans pale much, much more next to Marines than in GW's books, so I tend to think it makes for a very poor representation of the characters affected by this artificially magnified power gap), but if you keep the games apart they all have something going for them. Deathwatch is essentially "300" with boltguns and chainswords. Your four Marines on one side and a thousand 'nids on the other. Come to think of it, the feeling might be comparable to the new Space Marine videogame as well.

And yeah, the "careers" are what you know from the tabletop - your character can basically specialize in becoming an Assault Marine etc.

The rules have some ups and downs (the "incompatibility" issue being my personal main gripe), but I'd suggest to just give it a try. You should still be able to download that introductory adventure from FFG's website, maybe just run a test game with your mates?

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

I think we'll probably check it out. We're on a bit of a 40k, break, and we're thinking of starting Fantasy and maybe an RPG for a little.

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

You pick a career path, in a sense, in that you choose what sort of Marine you are, and you pick your Home Chapter, although only certain Chapters are, thus far, represented in the game. All of the most popular ones, and then one kind of odd-ball Chapter, imo.

You're not picking a DH class, since you're a Space Marine, not a regular scrub human, your life's goals have already been pretty well selected for you. You're never old enough to be anything listed in DH before being selected to become a Space Marine, so that's all out.

Still, it's pretty awesome. I must have missed the DW errata announcement, so I will need to brush up on that before my next game and break the bad news to the players. As I am the GM, and a cruel, heartless bastard who sups upon tears as if they were fine wine besides, then this will not be a problem.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Are the Space Sharks represented because they're one of my favorite chapters. Also Astral Claws, cause I have a German Shepherd

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

Not that I recall, off hand. I believe the default Chapters are Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, Iron Hands, Crimson Fists and Space Wolves.... could be wrong, though, I don't have my DW book on hand.

EDIT: I think the Black Templars also get a mention.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

The default chapters are:

Black Templars
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Storm Wardens (new chapter, a sort of Scottish Highlander theme. Blue armor, silver shoulders, hands, and legs below the knees)
Ultramarines

Other chapters are added in supplements. But these are the ones in the core rulebook. There is (or is going to be? I haven't kept up with deathwatch) one which allows you to create a custom chapter IIRC.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Excellent, I haven't heard of the Stormwardens before

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

I believe they are new to the DW game, but otherwise are a fairly standard Codex chapter.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Storm_Wardens

A point on las weaponry

Void__Dragon — GMT

Melissia wrote:The default chapters are:

Black Templars
Blood Angels
Dark Angels
Space Wolves
Storm Wardens (new chapter, a sort of Scottish Highlander theme. Blue armor, silver shoulders, hands, and legs below the knees)
Ultramarines

Other chapters are added in supplements. But these are the ones in the core rulebook. There is (or is going to be? I haven't kept up with deathwatch) one which allows you to create a custom chapter IIRC.

I believe the "Rites of Battle" supplement has rules for creating your own chapter.

I haven't played Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, or Deathwatch, but have a lot of the books on them for when I get around to organising a campaign for one of the three. Whenever that will be.

A point on las weaponry

Lynata — GMT

Psienesis wrote:I must have missed the DW errata announcement, so I will need to brush up on that before my next game and break the bad news to the players.

Huh, well, if the old stats work for you, keep 'em?
It's not like you'd have any kind of obligation there - it's just that a lot of people complained about stuff dying too fast and the heavy bolter making any other weapon useless. If your group would prefer to keep the weapons as they are and you as a GM didn't have a problem with them either, no reason to change things. Publicly, the new weapon stats aren't even a real errata but "optional rules" supposedly intended to "minimize dice rolls" (there's some diplomacy for ya). That said, the newer books such as Black Crusade all use these "optional" weapon stats...

Here's the link for you, btw: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/deathwatch/news/faq/Deathwatch%20Living%20Errata%20v1-1.pdf

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Yse, that's because a lot of people are under the delusion that movie marines = fluffy marines.

A point on las weaponry

Brother Coa — GMT

And table Guardsman = fluff Guardsman.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Fluff Guardsman are hardcore, legit, soldiers, but many people don't go to deep into fluff and end up with ideas like "Guard are squishy on the table so they must be squishy in the fluff"

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

A novel is fluff. A video game is fluff. A movie is fluff. Fluff is anything that is not "hard canon" or "by the rulebook". 40K, having no real "hard canon" blurs the lines rather a bit, though.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So does Deathwatch feel more like "I'm an Astartes and I'm here to mess up your day with bolt shells." and DH feel like "I'm a person and I am going to ruin your day but could still get hit."

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

Yes, sort of. Depends on the sort of game you are running, though.

In DW, you are Space Marines, carrying Astartes class boltguns, for when you absolutely, positively have to kill every motherfething xeno in the room, accept no substitute. The game is primarily combat-oriented and, though SM are tough, the enemies they fight in DW are in teeming hordes that basically just inflict damage every round, no hit rolls needed. The game, though, is fairly linear... get mission, deploy to target planet, execute mission, experience plot-twist or divergent plot-path, kill xenos*, complete objective. Rinse, repeat.

*= The "Kill xenos" step may appear throughout the game.

In Dark Heresy, because you're part of an Inquisitorial retinue, there's a lot more storyline to the game (IMO). Just because your boss has the power of the Rosette doesn't mean she wants to go kicking in doors and cracking skulls and preaching fire and brimstone and the Wrath of the God-Emperor from her armored Battle-Pulpit. Many Inquisitors prefer much more subtle method, offering all sorts of chances for undercover work, sneaking around to gather clues, stakeouts, shadowing/tracking suspects and otherwise playing like a police or detective drama... with big shoot outs and Inquisitorial authority getting flexed in a major way at the exciting climax.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So if you want to be Rambo go DW, but if you want to be James Bond go DH?

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

Pretty much, yes.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Nice, I think we'll probably do DH

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

My group has a lot of fun with DH. It offers them a much greater opportunity for "character interest" stories than DW or even RT might offer.

In my group's particular case, they have the main mission, which is my primary concern as the GM, and then three side-stories going on between the characters.

The first is their poor Vindicare Assassin, who has come to require Full Cybernetic Resurrection. Now that she's got the MIU and all the brain-ware, they keep plugging her in to various Xeno-machines and what-not, which has a very bad effect on her sanity. The Interrogator is convinced that the "dark figure" drifting about in her shattered psyche is actually a daemon, and so is going to attempt to exorcise her. There is a daemon present, though just not in their Assassin, but on the periphery, waiting for something like this to happen because...

.... the Adept of the party has acquired Psychic Talents due to his study of esoteric and forbidden lore. Problem is... he's not yet sanctioned. The Inquisitor keeps him in a warded and sealed chamber on their ship, as circumstances dictate that they cannot delay to find a Black Ship, and his knowledge is too precious to splatter on the wall with a bolt-round. He has been in "email" conversation with the Assassin, who's brain is on ice while they build her a new cyborg body. Unfortunately for the Adept, this person he's becoming net-friends with over the ship's wireless is actually that daemon I mentioned earlier (they forgot to ward the cables and power lines coming into the Adept's room), who is building in the Adept the idea that the Interrogator is going to exorcise the Assassin, who will then have what's left of her soul thrust out of her body and need a place to reside... she tells the Adept that, since there's so very little of her left, she'll be able to co-habitate in his brain....
... meanwhile, one of the Tech-Priests in the party, has gone absolutely nuts, finding the Assassin to be a perfect specimen of one who has received the bountiful blessings of the Omnissiah (a 95% augmetic body reconstruction) and so is thinking of somehow absconding with her to his as-yet-unlocated secret Tech-Fortress.

As the GM, the only part I play is that of the Daemon, which was already present, but none of the players have detected yet.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

So do you guys use 40k or Inquisitor size models?

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

When we need to use minis, which is not terribly often, we use a mix of 40K minis, Reaper minis, Steampunk minis, Battletech minis (they have great tank figs) and whatever else comes to hand.

Heck, I once represented a stalk-tank using a stuffed octopus doll that belonged to my girlfriend.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

We don't use minis as our games are over online chat rooms. Generally, we go with trust on dice rolls, with GM coming down hard on any obvious roll fudging by injuring your character next time something happens (which is all the time), and not always physically injuring them...

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Oh, we all live about 1,000 feet apart from each other

A point on las weaponry

im2randomghgh — GMT

TheAngrySquig wrote:So do you guys use 40k or Inquisitor size models?

You could always play inquisitor too, since you get to RPG with a squad instead of an individual, and you get to just start your character over if it gets stale. Plus you get kroot.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

You get kroot in rogue trader too IIRC.

A point on las weaponry

Void__Dragon — GMT

Melissia wrote:You get kroot in rogue trader too IIRC.

Yeah, rules for making Ork and Kroot characters are in the "Into the Storm" Rogue Trader supplement.

A point on las weaponry

BLOODCLAWallday — GMT

If you took one to the chest, I imagine that you wouldn't die from bleeding out but rather having your internal organs obliterated, but I have read in some books people bleeding out form it, I have no clue how this would happen. Sort of like the "He doesn't like you, I don't like you either" guy in Star Wars

Re:A point on las weaponry

Connor MacLeod — GMT

Lasers don't always burn or cauterize, it depends entirely on how the laser operates. If you fire the laser in a very short pulse (say microseconds to nanoseconds) and you concentrate it on a small area (say millimeters) you can create a miniature "explosion" due to the rapid vaporization of the surface matter. Depending on how the laser is designed (how many pulses, how much energy per pulse, etc.) you can drill a hole in a target, blast a big crater in them, or even slice a person in half with about the same energy modern rifles utilize via gunpowder. From what I hear, a laser operating in that fashion won't cauterize - at least not at those energies.

Funny enough this is even how lasguns are depicted in some of the fluff (most notably the Wargear book from 2nd edition, the 3rd edition core rules, the old Necromunda "Confrontation" rules, etc.)

I'm not sure entirely what is needed to create "cauterization" type lasgun effects though, probably heat ray that causes steam explosions (or very penetrative radiation to cook the target, maybe.)

A point on las weaponry

Brother Coa — GMT

Here is a question?
Lasgun on High setting: will it go trough it's target and hit the one behind it and so on until it gets out of power or it will just explode on first target?

A point on las weaponry

Lynata — GMT

I'd theorize that it would still cause an explosion on the target surface (as that's how they were described in general), just that it would leave a bigger crater as the higher energy results in a faster temperature rise and, with that, affect a greater area.

I'm no physicist, but wouldn't the temparature rise (which ultimately leads to the explosion) "travel" faster along the surface area than "into" the material itself? i.e. the hole may not be much deeper, but it would definitely be wider?

Speaking of settings - which regiment uses the Triplex-pattern, anyways? That's the only one which seems to have this slider, but I have never seen it associated with a specific force, only that it's uncommon. The short blurb in the 5E Guard Codex covered what patterns the most popular regiments use, but didn't give a regiment for the Triplex.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

The Mars Pattern Short Lasgun-- the standard, most common pattern throughout the galaxy-- has at least two settings (IIUP, p20). In fact, in the Gaunt's Ghosts series, two settings (low and high) are standard. High is rarely used as it has attrocious ammo consumption and barrel damage, but it's there as an option.

It's very likely that those that DON'T have two power settings are the exception, not the rule.

Stats for the MPSL:

● Weight: 2.3kg
● Length: 90cm
● Fire modes: Semi-auto and full auto
● Rate of fire: 220 shots/minute
● Intensity settings: Low/High
● Adjustable back/front sights, rails for laser sights or optics

A point on las weaponry

Lynata — GMT

Not according to the 5E Guard Codex:

"The lasgun is the universal small arm of the Imperial Guard, but there are a great many models, marks and patterns in service. The Cadian Shock Troops, for example, commonly bear the M36 lasrifle, originally manufactured on Kantrael, a weapon known for its robustness. The Catachan Jungle Fighters bear the Mk 4 lascarbine, which has less cowling than the M36 and is therefore lighter and easier to carry in close environments. Other common marks include the easily manufactured Mars and Armageddon lasguns, the much sought after variable power setting Triplex pattern, and the short-barrelled, folding-stock models used by mechanized infantry, tank crews and troops on starship detail. Even more exotic are the intricately wrought heirloom weapons of the Vostroyan Firstborn, and the Accatran pattern mark IV, much valued by the Elysians and other drop troopers for its compactness and utility at short range."

This is mirrored in GW's Inquisitor RPG, where you can choose between the Mars-, Necromunda- and Triplex-pattern. Only the Triplex has variable power settings, and only the Necromunda can do more than single shots.

I actually recall having seen the Mars-pattern depicted with a power slider, too - and have erroneously complained about this missing from DH a long time ago - but I'm not quite sure if that was just in BL's Primer or an older GW book. Either way, the above is, I think, at least the current stance from the people at the studio. As always, interpretations in licensed products such as the GG novels may present a different image, be it due to age (referencing older material) or due to author's choice.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

Or it could be because they honestly don't care about these kinds of niggling details and leave it up to the reader/author/random chance of fate to decide?

A point on las weaponry

Lynata — GMT

That's what I meant. Well, in a way - obviously they do care about these details, else they wouldn't have written them down - but there is no consistency between the material, so everyone may just as well pick what he or she thinks fits best...

I think I've come around to accept that studio material isn't any more canon than licensed products now. Of course, this only means that we end up with a gazillion different ideas, none of whom is "wrong". That makes threads such as this one a bit more complicated, but I guess the best way would be to treat the information from the books (any books) as "suggestions".

Personally, I'll continue to stick to the studio material, but I will admit that this doesn't make me any more "right" than someone who prefers, say, the GG books or the Primer. Or, for what it's worth, his own ideas! In the future, I'll try to voice my posts accordingly, though I think the last sentence of the above post already works nice as a disclaimer.

A point on las weaponry

Melissia — GMT

I think most people would agree that fan-fiction is itself not actually in-universe. It's fan-fiction. Basically, anything that's licensed or produced by GW is essentially "canon".

Personally, I prefer the IIUP as a source because of its depth of information and the fact that it is written from an in-universe perspective. Sure, its information about xenos is wrong-- intentionally so, because said information is propaganda. But its information on equipment is very precise, even showing how to maintain the equipment

A point on las weaponry

Lynata — GMT

Melissia wrote:I think most people would agree that fan-fiction is itself not actually in-universe. It's fan-fiction. Basically, anything that's licensed or produced by GW is essentially "canon".

"Canon" (in the sense of material that would establish rules for the background) implies at least an attempt at consistency between the various origins of material, though, which does not exist, nor does it seem to be desired. That's coming directly from people who have written these licensed products. In fact, ...

"To suggest that Black Library novels are somehow of lesser relevance to the background is to imply that every player who has created a unique Space Marine chapter or invented their own Elector Count is somehow wrong. Nothing could be further from the truth. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 exist as tens of thousands of overlapping realities in the imaginations of games developers, writers, readers and gamers. None of those interpretations is wrong."
- Gav Thorpe

Invented Space Marine Chapters and Elector Counts are arguably fan-fiction, and if those are to be compared to the Black Library then both are of equal optional value for everyone's personal idea of the setting.
My opinion on this subject didn't change, but I've come to realize that not even GW's own books constitute canon. Another Dakkanaut recently swayed me with this line, also coming from Thorpe: "With Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000, the notion of canon is a fallacy."

The Uplifting Primer, of which I have both the original as well as the Damocles Gulf edition, is of course a very well written piece of literature. Like you, I very much love its detail and the in-universe perspective. However, the level of precision does not make the information contained in it any more "right" or "wrong" than any other product, or indeed even fan-fiction. It's just another source for inspiration.
Like BL's Xenology, which is likewise written from an in-universe perspective - yet for all my love for the little snippets in there, I personally just do not believe that Tau have toes instead of hooves, for example. Or that all Imperial Guardsmen, including the half-naked "barbarian" regiments, carry the vast list of modern equipment printed in the Primer (when the Codex clearly points out that the only standard item is a lasgun of some pattern)... But that's just me, based on my own set of preferences.

Tl;dr: Nobody is right, nobody is wrong.

At least as far as GW seems to be concerned. You're quite right in pointing out that the majority of fans may have a different opinion concerning the validity of fan-fiction, as that's just how a franchise is normally run. I don't really like the absence of canonicity myself and would have much preferred an approach more like with Star Wars, but this is just what we have for 40k now. I guess this may be a result out of the wargaming aspect and that GW has always wanted its players to "make the setting their own", what with giving advice on how to do a custom Marine Chapter and all.

Quite off-topic, I know, but I think it's an important thing that should be discussed to prevent other posters' opinions from being invalidated due to a supposed canon that does not exist...

A point on las weaponry

Connor MacLeod — GMT

Brother Coa wrote:Here is a question?
Lasgun on High setting: will it go trough it's target and hit the one behind it and so on until it gets out of power or it will just explode on first target?

Again it depends on how the weapon works and which fluff you read. Lasguns have overpenetrated like hell in some novels (Death World) or only exploded on contactw ith the surface (3rd edition codex) and everything in between.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:I think most people would agree that fan-fiction is itself not actually in-universe. It's fan-fiction. Basically, anything that's licensed or produced by GW is essentially "canon".

Personally, I prefer the IIUP as a source because of its depth of information and the fact that it is written from an in-universe perspective. Sure, its information about xenos is wrong-- intentionally so, because said information is propaganda. But its information on equipment is very precise, even showing how to maintain the equipment

-attempting to preempt another canon debate-

I think its a valid source of information, but I tend to be a bit skeptical of taking it all at face value because a.) it clearly is meant to be absurd (out of universe at least - not that I mind that), and b.) in universe it is also meant to be sort of "company policy" for the IG as outlined by the munitorum. The Munitorum Manual (which I like myself) is in the same way. I also tend to treat the Codexes as the same thing, because those tend to be propaganda heavy as well (CF 5th edition Space Marine codex and the Ultramarines love.) It's also hard to completely, absolutely buy the idea that an Imperium that does not know how many planets or Space Marine chapters it actually has can micromanage things to the planetary level to insure everyone follows what they say to the letter (Which they don't.) It's more what they want/think people to do and hope it works.

That isn't to say the novels are better per se, they offer a different perspective - sort of the "ground level" view - it shows you how things might be filtering in from the top (what does and doesn't hold, etc.) but it tends to only show you part of the overall picture, and what holds in one place may not hold for another.

The funny part is, I tend to like the FFG most for the "fluff" value - it tends to fall somewhere in between novels and the codexes, and it has a more objective tone to it when it does speak on things. Which again isn't to say everything the FFG RPGS say is absolute truth either. You have to look at everything to get the clear picture, really.

Which, incidentally, usually means you have to spend more money on GW products. Interesting coincidence wouldn't ya say?

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

In the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, the Sabbat War series, "low power" seems to be used for target practice and training exercises, as a "low power" las setting, at least in a few of the mentions Abnett gives it, is non-lethal.

A point on las weaponry

KamikazeCanuck — GMT

Lynata wrote:That's what I meant. Well, in a way - obviously they do care about these details, else they wouldn't have written them down - but there is no consistency between the material, so everyone may just as well pick what he or she thinks fits best...

I think I've come around to accept that studio material isn't any more canon than licensed products now.

Now, to work on convincing you Hellguns could scorch Power Armour.

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

Hellguns do more than scorch power armor... they're designed to blow right through it. I suppose if you were firing a hellgun at an oblique and hit a curved part of the pauldron or breastplate it might just glance off and scorch it...

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

Wow, we went from lasguns to gaming to fluff to lasguns. We. Fething. Win.

A point on las weaponry

im2randomghgh — GMT

Psienesis wrote:Hellguns do more than scorch power armor... they're designed to blow right through it. I suppose if you were firing a hellgun at an oblique and hit a curved part of the pauldron or breastplate it might just glance off and scorch it...

If it is written from guard perspective, their super-mega-awesome hellguns will headshot titans, if it is written from SM perspective, you will see their armour taking lascannon shots for gaks and giggles.

Every armies codex makes them seem super unstoppable. Except tau they make you seem like a worthless piece-o-gak.

A point on las weaponry

Psienesis — GMT

From a player's perspective, though, hellguns pop power armor like it was paper.

Using the DH tables:

Standard Power Armor (non-Astartes): Armor Rating 8
Cadian-pattern Hellgun: Penetration 7, plus 1d10+4 Energy damage (with 3-round burst fire capability)

Even minimum damage from a Hellgun penetrates Power Armor, and then is resisted by the target's Toughness. Against most non-Astartes targets, they're going to take a point of damage, given average Toughness values.
(Maths: Hellgun damage roll of 1+4= 5 damage, Pen 7 ignores 7 of the PA's 8 AR, remaining 1 AR reduces 5 damage to 4, average Toughness Bonus of 3 reduces 4 damage to 1 damage taken by target). Of course, most people you find in PA aren't "average" by any means, but I'm just using "stock flunky" in power armor for illustrative purposes. There isn't (yet) a "Plot Armor" Talent to purchase (at least, not *quite*).

With a 3-round burst of average damage, that's 9 points per hit, the target soaking only 4 of those damage per, so taking 15 total damage. If you're playing with the "Only Human" optional rule, the next salvo, assuming average damage, is going to pulp this guy (25 Wounds, given Only Human limitations, takes 30 damage over 2 rounds, is now in a +5 Critical Wounds effect... that's pretty much dead, at the best that's "really, seriously, terribly fethed up")

Astartes armor is AR 10 on the torso, and they're much tougher, and so shrug off the damage much more extensively... but the shot's still penetrating the armor, even on minimum damage (Pen 7 + 5 damage= 12 damage, 2 gets through to the Marine, who ignores it, but, still.).

A point on las weaponry

im2randomghgh — GMT

Psienesis wrote:From a player's perspective, though, hellguns pop power armor like it was paper.

Using the DH tables:

Standard Power Armor (non-Astartes): Armor Rating 8
Cadian-pattern Hellgun: Penetration 7, plus 1d10+4 Energy damage (with 3-round burst fire capability)

Even minimum damage from a Hellgun penetrates Power Armor, and then is resisted by the target's Toughness. Against most non-Astartes targets, they're going to take a point of damage, given average Toughness values.
(Maths: Hellgun damage roll of 1+4= 5 damage, Pen 7 ignores 7 of the PA's 8 AR, remaining 1 AR reduces 5 damage to 4, average Toughness Bonus of 3 reduces 4 damage to 1 damage taken by target). Of course, most people you find in PA aren't "average" by any means, but I'm just using "stock flunky" in power armor for illustrative purposes. There isn't (yet) a "Plot Armor" Talent to purchase (at least, not *quite*).

With a 3-round burst of average damage, that's 9 points per hit, the target soaking only 4 of those damage per, so taking 15 total damage. If you're playing with the "Only Human" optional rule, the next salvo, assuming average damage, is going to pulp this guy (25 Wounds, given Only Human limitations, takes 30 damage over 2 rounds, is now in a +5 Critical Wounds effect... that's pretty much dead, at the best that's "really, seriously, terribly fethed up")

Astartes armor is AR 10 on the torso, and they're much tougher, and so shrug off the damage much more extensively... but the shot's still penetrating the armor, even on minimum damage (Pen 7 + 5 damage= 12 damage, 2 gets through to the Marine, who ignores it, but, still.).

Again, though. From a fluff perspective, 100% source. Source is the only factor in fluff.

A point on las weaponry

Lynata — GMT

Meh, it's not the only interpretation from Forgeworld I'd deem questionable/incompatible with the setting - and henceforth not include into my personal perception. Leaving scorch marks is something I can see lasguns do, but not hellguns. Actually, the idea of las shots ricocheting off the armour (?!) sounds fairly weird in general.

A matter of preferences, I suppose. We can only agree to disagree.

A point on las weaponry

KamikazeCanuck — GMT

Jeez, I was just joking. That really made the thread go off in an unexpected direction.

A point on las weaponry

TheAngrySquig — GMT

I never expected it either, its pretty awesome actually