Latest posts for the thread "Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]"

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

parjlarsson — GMT

Registered just to post in the thread by junk: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/381765.page but then noticed a FAQ rule against 1+ month necro'ing threads. I searched for more assassins discussion and didn't find much other than the regular "they're fluff units" stuff. Keep in mind that for a competitive GK list, almost any other setup is better than Assassins. This is only for self-gimping people who like cool stuff.

New player (except a few models back in 1988), building a Coteaz 1000 with no GKs (meh), no vehicles (personal dislike) and 3 Assassins. Expect to get slaughtered and lose objectives games and never have board dominance but have fun and more importantly - look cool.

** Vindicare in corner with Coteaz + Servitors + Death Cult Assassins for support, range & protection. Start at 12" in, retreat to edge of board against swarm/assault armies.

EDITED:
** Callidus is basically a reactive & fragile unit - a lightly armoured special character killer - or has to Polymorphine 3" into cover? If the rule is "within 3 inches but outside of 1 inch from the nearest unit" - then Callidus can really only ever come in against lightly armoured small, isolated units near cover. Essentially useless, other than to draw fire/assault away from your simultaneously attacking other units - it'd take a lot of skill to make your opponent have to choose between killing a Callidus or dealing with your main force. Junk also talked about attacking Hvy Weapons squads, and come in late-game to possibly hurt a random troop holding an objective. EDIT 2: Keep in mind that D6 ST4 attacks, even with AP2, is unlikely to do much against a unit of Long Fangs at Toughness 4, and not much at all against anything at T5+. Also keep in mind that the attacks are generally resolved as ranged attacks, meaning cover saves apply. Which is kind of stupid imho, but there'd need to be a FAQ/errata for that to change.

** Eversor - and here's the entire point of the post - goes in Reserve. Mostly Harmless (yeah, I was Elite, now I'm Oolite) if the scenario doesn't allow Reserves (so you should probably have an alternative army list, say with some GKs or a Dreadnought or more DCA/Boltgunners/Crusaders/Monkeys). Perfect for a shooty foot army with some tricks.

Mr. Eversoze is basically your ace in the hole. Even without outflank you now have something that means anyone will think twice of putting *anything* within 12" of your board edge - though I may have my distances off (please correct me). An extra inquisitor with "Psychic Communion" also allows a bit quicker access to him in Reserves. If all else fails he's either a lone guy that has to skulk in terrain - or more realistically stuck pulling anti-outflank/counter-assault duty for your big guns on the Servitors/Monkeys/Vindicare. Not terribly useful against shooty, non-outflanking, non-assaulting armies but could still work against anyone that tries to surprise you (jumpwing/Ork mech/Chaos/Genestealers), and can deny objectives even if not hold them. Eversor might not do much killing, he's more area denial against assault, really.

Conclusion:

Vindicare - fairly solid, and only real assassin of note for a "normal" GK list.
Callidus - depends on your rule interpretation?
Eversore - ace in the hole or counter-assault or useless.
Culexus - don't get me started. Possibly maybe useful against Eldar/Eldar Renegades/Chaos/GK, again in a counter-assault fashion, but only in high-point games? At least it's just one unit and not horribly expensive, hard to paint and keep around.

Callidus' "Polymorphine" rule needs a FAQ/change. Eversore & Culexus just need "Scout" or "Infiltrate" and a higher points cost or lowered other gear/stats - or they will always be second fiddle to more GK regular Elites.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

lledwey — GMT

I don't know how you can interpret the Polymorphine rule that way. She is placed within 3" of that unit using the Deep Strike rules, but does not scatter. Deep Strike rules clearly state that you cannot be within 1 inch of enemy models. Nothing in her rule overrides this, she must be at least one and at most three inches away from the unit. Doesn't need a FAQ at all.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Deadshot — GMT

Vindicare assassins are fairly solid. They offer the chance to eliminate HW gunners, speciallist and Sgt, blow up vehicles easily, and do this at 36" away.

Culexi generate the equivilent of Storm Bolter shots IIRC. Even with the extra shots, it can't generate enough and is generally a waste.

Eversors are kinda hard to use, because the need time to get across the field, and are a much high target priority than Culexi.

Callidus are best used for that lone small unit of Grots claiming thath objective. Pop in and Polymorphine him, then open fire with a Str 8 Template pistol.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Godless-Mimicry — GMT

Callidus cannot be placed in base contact with enemy on arrival; base rules states you must stay 1" from enemy units unless initiating an assault.

As for the Vindicare, definitely the best, but defintiely not to be deployed in the corner of the board where he is out of range and useless, nor should he be moving and thus losing turns of shooting. On the same bullet point, DCAs should not be wasted in a Servitor unit.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

sudojoe — GMT

I've liked culexus vs horde armies somewhat. I.e. stand him within 12 inches of a 10 man GK strike squad and torrent lots of tyranids/ork's/guard that may be near by. Too bad the range is so short... lol at least it's 12 str 5 shots that may be unanticipated at anything that's comming close by since it is an assault weapon.

works better with a librarian casting sanc and if you get lucky, the bad guys fail or roll low on the dangerous terrain... ya, alot needs to happen for this guy to shine.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Godless-Mimicry — GMT

Actually it is only 3 shots; a unit of Grey Knights count as one Psyker.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

parjlarsson — GMT

lledwey wrote:I don't know how you can interpret the Polymorphine rule that way. She is placed within 3" of that unit using the Deep Strike rules, but does not scatter. Deep Strike rules clearly state that you cannot be within 1 inch of enemy models. Nothing in her rule overrides this, she must be at least one and at most three inches away from the unit. Doesn't need a FAQ at all.

Point taken. OP edited to reduce people coming into the thread just to tell me I'm wrong. Thanks for putting me straight.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

junk — GMT

Thanks for resurrecting this old topic, I've seen a lot of Vindicares make it into tournament lists, and I've played them consistently for the past few months. I've gotten into the habit of sticking my vindicare in a rhino, and I've seen that used fairly frequently.

Elite slots for GK are PRECIOUS, and taking more than 1 assassin is never advisable unless you're going for some kind of fluff army.

Eversors can kill entire squads with ease, and if you are playing with stormravens, as in a draigowing; you can try to keep the eversor in reserve, and then turn three, bring him directly in and directly embark into an empty raven, then swing him out and assault on turn 4 or 5 as needed. Of course, that 130 points could just be a 5 man interceptor squad...

While I am addicted to the vindicare, I am frequently disappointed with its performance - however, when that thing comes in handy it REALLY comes in handy; popping a land raider, breaking a storm shield, removing those ID guns that chew up paladins... I love the vindicare, and I don't mind losing a Psyflenought to play one. Beyond that, I haven't really heard one compelling argument as to why I should bother playing any of the other assassins. Has anyone had any luck with the Culexis? maybe against nids?

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Godless-Mimicry — GMT

junk wrote:I've gotten into the habit of sticking my vindicare in a rhino, and I've seen that used fairly frequently.

I've seen this done a lot and I can't say I see it as a sound tactical move. You lose a turn of shooting just to embark and you aren't taking advantage of most of the Vindicare's special rules, which you are paying a premium for.

Re:Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Bruteboss — GMT

Everyone seems to forget that the vindicare carries a pistol with the same firepower as his rifle. 6" or less move to get into the rhino, the rhino moves 6", and he can still shoot 12" out from the hatch.
That's up to 24" of effective range the turn he gets into the rhino, which is almost as good as his full range standing still.

I've never done it myself, but have seen a GK player pull a similar tactic with a vindicare who embarked on turn 1. He was able to speed the rhino around some LOS blocking terrain and pop the vindicare out far enough to blow up a manticore that was hiding back there. Pretty awesome move.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

parjlarsson — GMT

Agreed that 5th isn't the time of the Assassins at all - if you use one you're mainly doing it for nostalgia or cool or fluff.

With the exception of the missing "Scout" or "Infiltrate" and the expect-to-get-shot-to-pieces current "Polymorphine" rule I don't think they're that overcosted or underpowered - it's the rest of the GK codex that's messed up imho.

For reference, here's some fun review stuff I found while looking for more info:

http://www.40kforums.com/vb/entry.php/105-Forces-through-the-editions-Eversor-Assassin

http://www.40kforums.com/vb/entry.php/319-Forces-through-the-editions-Callidus-Assassin

http://www.40kforums.com/vb/entry.php/326-Forces-through-the-editions-Culexus-Assassin

http://www.40kforums.com/vb/entry.php/45-Forces-through-the-editions-Vindicare-Assassin.

Overall it seems some of them started out fairly OP, had their ups and downs and for unknown reasons got smacked down hard in 5th edition.

Still would like to hear from someone who held an Eversor back by a shooting line or high-powered ranged unit or in Reserve when playing against Ork Mech, Tyranid Swarm or Jumpwing or similar fast-moving assault-y armies. Would holding an Eversor in reserve against these when playing Annihilation be that bad? And would it be significantly worse playing Objectives?

EDIT: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=233401&st=25&p=2813013&#entry2813013 fairly reasonable analysis (though you can tell the guy is more than a little in love with the idea of assassins, rather than as a points-for-value object) making the brave argument that the Mathhammer portion of the analysis is far from the end of the be-all-end-all. Got a unit that you have an iffy assault option on? Callidus or Vindicare to better your odds.

I'm also thinking that in higher-points games on 4x6 ft tables there's just too much stuff going on and not enough cover for an Eversor or Culexus. But what about a low-points game with lots of cover - like "Cities of Death" and similar? Especially against assault-y swarm armies like Ork or Tyranid. Or even non-assaulty IG/Tau with cover available for the Callidus if there's a lone heavy-weapons unit near cover? In these cases I think an Assassin is an option, if maybe still not the best option if you just want to win with a GK army and don't care much what units look cool or fit your "theme".

All I'm saying is there are *some* uses for them that aren't completely self-nerfing/self-gimping. Given that we're only talking one model here, you could also just have a ready and more points-effective replacement, i.e. show up with two lists to your club - one with and one without Assassin.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Garukadon — GMT

The last 3 games ive played the vindicare has come in super handy. Taking out tanks, storm ravens, vindicators and dreadnoughts are usually my main targets and success rate is pretty high. I always take a techmarine and fortify a ruin to get a 3+ cover save, couple that with stealth and youve got 2+ cover save all day long. Not to mention he becomes such a focus on my opponents part that they lose sight of objectives and direct most if not all shooting at him. Ive lost him many times early in the game but when I started adding the techmarine, he started surviving all the way through games and absorbing way too much firepower- sometimes a whole turn dedicated just to shoot at him!

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

junk — GMT

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
junk wrote:I've gotten into the habit of sticking my vindicare in a rhino, and I've seen that used fairly frequently.

I've seen this done a lot and I can't say I see it as a sound tactical move. You lose a turn of shooting just to embark and you aren't taking advantage of most of the Vindicare's special rules, which you are paying a premium for.

Right, obviously Pistol, but that could have gone unsaid. The more important thing is People are terrified of the vindicare. For obvious reasons, the vindicare wins the prize right away. Seriously, I'm considering repainting my vindicare safety cone orange with a bullseye on its chest. I don't mind that my vindicare draws fire, I just don't like it when the vindicare dies. Being able to shoot every round is awesome, but the best way to make that happen is to stick your vindicare in a hard candy shell and then plant the thing in area terrain.

I know from experience that when my vindicare is in a position to be effective, it is often focus-fired and killed within a couple rounds of actually being effective. The rhino buys at least 1 round, sometimes 2. I'm also not saying that I do it every time, it's dependent on the situation. I've found it to be pretty effective, but then again, neither one of us is talking about the meta. If you're watching a lot of GK vs Tau, Nids, or Necron, you might just be wondering why people bother playing the vindicare at all.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Deadshot — GMT

The only problem with the rhino is that the vindicare has to waste a turn getting in.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

parjlarsson — GMT

If you're gonna use a GK Librarian anyway:

"The Summoning":
This power can be used at the beginning of the Librarian's Movement Phase. If the Psychic Test is successful, choose a friendly, non-vehicle unit that is not locked in combat anywhere on the battlefield. The chosen unit is removed from the tabletop and immediately placed anywhere within 6" of the Librarian using the Deep Strike rules.

Not sure if a Mystic or a servo-skull will be of much use synergistically. The object would ofc be to get that Eversor or Culexus in where they need to be. You could even use the Librarian as bait in a unit with some wound catchers or Deep Strike/teleport him somehow into a spot where your opponent can't immediately assault and has to move for a turn, then when he's committed the appropriate force required to deal with Mr. Librarian ...surprise, he's got a friend, please meet Mr. Eversor.

Again, I'm sure there are better options in a points-for-competitive-value analysis. This entire thread is just about using what you think is cool, not about getting maximum win out of your available points.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

jvry8c — GMT

Garukadon wrote:The last 3 games ive played the vindicare has come in super handy. Taking out tanks, storm ravens, vindicators and dreadnoughts are usually my main targets and success rate is pretty high. I always take a techmarine and fortify a ruin to get a 3+ cover save, couple that with stealth and youve got 2+ cover save all day long. Not to mention he becomes such a focus on my opponents part that they lose sight of objectives and direct most if not all shooting at him. Ive lost him many times early in the game but when I started adding the techmarine, he started surviving all the way through games and absorbing way too much firepower- sometimes a whole turn dedicated just to shoot at him!

nice idea. what do you have the techmarine decked out with, seeing that he would need some other purpose on the board? if its only for the sake of giving a vindicare a 2+ cover it seems a tad over priced.
I like using mine to knock out tanks and independent characters. one of the best ways to get the points back on a vindicare is to pop a hammer head or land raider.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Godless-Mimicry — GMT

Bruteboss wrote:Everyone seems to forget that the vindicare carries a pistol with the same firepower as his rifle. 6" or less move to get into the rhino, the rhino moves 6", and he can still shoot 12" out from the hatch.
That's up to 24" of effective range the turn he gets into the rhino, which is almost as good as his full range standing still.

Nobody forgets it, it's just, no, 24" is not nearly as good as 36" (not to mention that it isn't a full 24" since you measure movement from the front of the vehicle and passenger shooting from the hatch). Furthermore, after he makes his pistol shot, he is now within 12" of the enemy who can easily either assault him and not have to worry about his fantastic cover saves, or rapid fire the gak out of him, again using weight of numbers to make him fail those saves fairly quickly. Not to mention the fact that you are paying in his cost for special rules you won't use, you will lose a turn of shooting (from usually not being in range turn one and/or from the fact that he will die after making his first shot), and you have to either buy an extra squad for the Rhino, or a squad that needs it more and will make more use of it will have to abandon it. If you are going to splash out extra points to help him might as well be a Tech Marine for bolstering.

junk wrote:Being able to shoot every round is awesome, but the best way to make that happen is to stick your vindicare in a hard candy shell and then plant the thing in area terrain.

No it doesn't, it does the opposite; it almost guarantees that you lose at least one turn of shooting.

BTW, do note that a simple Shaken result loses him a turn of shooting in a Rhino also, and no, Fortitude is never a given.

It's a rather simple process, use your Infiltration to make sure you deploy versus your target well in cover or if needs be take advantage of the differences between the cover rules for infantry (him) and vehicles (his most likely desired target). He can easily be out of LOS to part of the enemy army to reduce return fire and can also use terrain or friendly vehicles to scrap any prid pro quo; remember because of the rules for LOS it is possible for the Vindicare to draw a bead the a vehicle but for the same vehicle's weapon not to be able to see him. I've rarely lost him, and usually when I do it is due to poor rolling on single cover saves (and one time for forgetting his Blind Grenades). He's not as hard to use as people think once he has a set battle plan.

Anyway I'm bowing out, as the discussion is not about the competitively viable options, so I am steering the conversation astray. Apologies to the OP.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Garukadon — GMT

jvry8c wrote:
Garukadon wrote:The last 3 games ive played the vindicare has come in super handy. Taking out tanks, storm ravens, vindicators and dreadnoughts are usually my main targets and success rate is pretty high. I always take a techmarine and fortify a ruin to get a 3+ cover save, couple that with stealth and youve got 2+ cover save all day long. Not to mention he becomes such a focus on my opponents part that they lose sight of objectives and direct most if not all shooting at him. Ive lost him many times early in the game but when I started adding the techmarine, he started surviving all the way through games and absorbing way too much firepower- sometimes a whole turn dedicated just to shoot at him!

nice idea. what do you have the techmarine decked out with, seeing that he would need some other purpose on the board? if its only for the sake of giving a vindicare a 2+ cover it seems a tad over priced.
I like using mine to knock out tanks and independent characters. one of the best ways to get the points back on a vindicare is to pop a hammer head or land raider.

Thanks. I usually give him rad grenades and a conversion cannon or just one of those options. With the conversion cannon you can sit back and pop tanks or take out infantry. Stick him with a warband and if they get charged or charge themselves, they'll benefit from the techmarines rad grenades. Arco flagellents and Death Cult Assasins benefit hugely from this. Or you can stick the Techmarine in storm raven to increase its survivability. Ive had one game where the techmarine was decked out with a Orbital Strike Relay sitting on a 3 story ruin and just bombared space marines with d3 large blasts templates. This was after I busted open almost all of his vehicles in turn 1 via jokaeros and vindicare : )

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

junk — GMT

junk wrote:
Being able to shoot every round is awesome, but the best way to make that happen is to stick your vindicare in a hard candy shell and then plant the thing in area terrain.

Godless Wrote: No it doesn't, it does the opposite; it almost guarantees that you lose at least one turn of shooting.

I'm suggesting that leaving the Vindicare sitting out in the open is going to assure that it doesn't live until the final round, and while the pistol "isn't as good" it still works, and means that losing a turn of shooting isn't guaranteed, despite however much you dislike putting them in a transport for whatever reason. Wrap your Vindicare in extra protection when the opportunity affords itself, and you get to keep it longer.

Btw, Garukadon is totally right, Bolstered ruins are awesome for a vindicare, but I've never had any luck with OSR unless I was playing against tyranids. The fact that it 'always scatters' even when your roll spot-on is a huge drawback.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

parjlarsson — GMT

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
It's a rather simple process, use your Infiltration to make sure you deploy versus your target well in cover or if needs be take advantage of the differences between the cover rules for infantry (him) and vehicles (his most likely desired target). He can easily be out of LOS to part of the enemy army to reduce return fire and can also use terrain or friendly vehicles to scrap any prid pro quo; remember because of the rules for LOS it is possible for the Vindicare to draw a bead the a vehicle but for the same vehicle's weapon not to be able to see him. I've rarely lost him, and usually when I do it is due to poor rolling on single cover saves (and one time for forgetting his Blind Grenades). He's not as hard to use as people think once he has a set battle plan.

Anyway I'm bowing out, as the discussion is not about the competitively viable options, so I am steering the conversation astray. Apologies to the OP.

I'd actually like to hear more about this, preferably with some pictures or a clear explanation for a newbie like me. The intent of the thread title was to make sure no-one thought I'd advocate assassins beyond maybe Vindicare in "serious" play. But I do desperately want to make mine as useful as possible, so every little bit helps.

Callidus - something I think people are forgetting here and a bit everywhere is that it could conceivably be terribly useful sometimes to have something that you can immediately sic on the battlefield at any unit whatsoever.

Example: You know you have a decent assault lined up on unit X. If you win the CC you look very good. If you lose, not so much. *BAM* Callidus and position the model within 3" of the unit in the direction of your assaulting unit. You just added a bit of CHOMP to the assault. Granted - it was probably not worth the points you paid overall, i.e the points would have been better spent elsewhere - but next turn, the very near enemy unit is either tied up or dead, and your assassin is in or behind a crowd of people. It's simply an answer to the question "I wish I had a little bit of extra pressure riiiight... here."

Q: I don't see anything in the Polymorphine rule that states you can't have your Callidus add that extra oomph to a CC already in progress. You'd have to be very damn careful about the "within 3 inches" positioning, but at least it's an option to make something happen (i.e. on-demand D6 extra hits) in a place where you *really* need it, close to your own troops for support and in a spot where you can choose what side of a melee to go in, for some near-guaranteed cover until she gets to move. Or am I completely off base here?

Thing with the Vindicare + Techmarine combo is that you don't always have ruins to bolster? For my 1500 list I was planning to take the Techmarine anyway and stick him in a screening unit for a Assault-Cannon Dreadnought. Not that ACs on Dreads is a good idea, but with a Techmarine supporting an infantry unit in front, there's pretty nice bubblewrap.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

CrashCanuck — GMT

Using the old codex, especially for an objective game I was always happy to field an Eversor Assassin, infiltrate 18" away from a scoring unit, 6" move, shoot twice with pistol, charge 12" and mop up with toxic power weapons, if he did die he exploded and took out even more.

Under the new codex I love the Vindicare as much as anyone else. My last game he killed a Land Raider turn 1, plasma gunner turn 2, then charged into a unit of Grey Hunters. I know it is probably the most counter intuitive thing to do with a sniper, but he killed them all off and only suffered 1 wound.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

parjlarsson — GMT

CrashCanuck wrote:...then charged into a unit of Grey Hunters. I know it is probably the most counter intuitive thing to do with a sniper, but he killed them all off and only suffered 1 wound.

I would pay $1 for pictures of that.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

parjlarsson — GMT

Hey junk, didn't you say something in some thread about using the Callidus against Long Fangs?

After looking at the usefulness of a D6 ST4 AP2 attack that takes cover saves, I'm starting to think that it should only ever be used against something that's already in combat, about to be in combat, very busy already, has crappy shooting, or is Toughness 3.

I.e., never use a Callidus against a Monstrous Creature or anything T4+.

Re:Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Fire_for_effect — GMT

I've been thinking about including an assassin and for can't decide between the Callidus and the Eversor. (Though the vindicare is probably the best out of the four)

The Callidus seems to have more of a tactical use (as has been said here for supporting assaults or clearing objectives), but I thought maybe she can also be used against MCs. I mean, the Callidus is bout hundred fifty points (being vague cause I'm not sure how strict the whole not say points thingy is), strikes at I7 and her attacks cause instant death. So I was thinking, if a Callidus assaults for instance a Trygon, wouldn't she go first with half a dozen attacks which ignore armour and if just one of those wounds, the entire thing goes down. Probably not the most solid tactic but I thought it might work.

The Eversor I figured is just cool because of the insane amount of pain he can cause to basically all enemy infantry (and I guess armor too if it has to be). I thought about just footslogging him along with most the rest of the army and hope that since he is barely used, the enemy will not expect him to do much harm and will just focus on different units and deepstrikers until it's too late.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

junk — GMT

Regarding Callidus and Long Fangs / Havocs / Devastator / Broadside squads...

Lots of people like deploying their heavy weapon infantry in the back ranks, where they can fire at long range and be relatively safe from return fire; ideally on high ground, with a few squads between them and their targets. Grey Knights, lacking long range firepower, only have a few options for dealing with those Lascannon/Missile toting emplacements. 2 rounds of flying with a full stormraven, a long range gunfight with your psyflenoughs, a shunting dreadknight with a heavy incinerator and a prayer, or a suicide squad of interceptors... or the callidus.

Long Fangs and broadsides are actually the worst example, because of their ability to split fire, but dropping a callidus on a heavy weapons squad will lay down 2-3 wounds on a 5 man squad and then force them to turn their weapons on him for a round, allowing you to freely walk through their kill zone with other units; Yeah, a HW squad should be able to make short work of a callidus, but if the 4++ should happen to protect the callidus from ID, then not only do you get to wipe them out in assault, but now you have a stealth unit running around your opponent's back ranks.

The Callidus is a gambit, and it's not one with a great chance of success, between his d6 on arrival, and sketchy template weapon, there's a lot of luck involved, but going after small, valuable squads seems to be what the callidus was designed for, and has at least a small chance of being able to do it.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Deadshot — GMT

The Neural Shredder (and the SOB Neural Whip), are both Str 8, Wound VS LD , although the Shredder is a Twemplate AP2 pistol and the whip is a PW.

They are rubbish. Anything that has 2+wounds has Ld of 9-10. This means you can't ID it, and wound on 5 or 6+. Anything that has ld7- has only 1 wound, and you wound on 3+, but the MEQ, the average LD, is 8, so that is 4+. Anything with Ld 6+ is either Grots or Gants, so they aren't worht a Callidus Assassin's attenttion. Not only rthat but it can't harm VEHICLES. At Str 8, that would be able to glance AV 14!

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

parjlarsson — GMT

junk wrote:Yeah, a HW squad should be able to make short work of a callidus, but if the 4++ should happen to protect the callidus from ID, then not only do you get to wipe them out in assault, but now you have a stealth unit running around your opponent's back ranks.

The Callidus is a gambit, and it's not one with a great chance of success, between his d6 on arrival, and sketchy template weapon, there's a lot of luck involved, but going after small, valuable squads seems to be what the callidus was designed for, and has at least a small chance of being able to do it.

Basic napkin mathhammer here (keep in mind I'm a newb, I have never even actually played a game):

D6 attacks, average 3.5 attacks
ST4 versus T4, therefore wounding on a 4+, i.e. 50% of the time, so now you're down to 1.75 wounds
AP2 attack trumps a 3+ armour save (?), so they only get a save if they're actually in cover

So you just took out average almost two missile launchers and are gambling on a 4++ save against what's probably at least 3-4 shots coming your way unless you manage to put a wall between the unit and the 3" away placement. Hmm... actually doesn't look that bad. I suppose the Long Fangs could charge you in the next turn, but I don't know with what hope of success. There's at least a decent chance of tying up the Long Fangs in CC for a while, assuming you survive the crucial first enemy shooting phase after the "reveal".

Is it worth the points? Hell no. But it's the best use of a very cool model that could be a lot of fun. I guess I'll have to revise my opinion that opening with the Callidus is only worth it against T3 units. An isolated or small T4 unit, or a unit that's busy or soon to be assaulted, could also be good targets.

Re:Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Movac — GMT

I can't wait to run a Vindicare when I get my GK going.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Deadshot — GMT

Vindicares are amazing. I used 1 in a vanilla marine army as part of a campaign, and the results were amazing.

Played against CSM

Turn 1 put a Defiler to rest as part of the scenery.

Turn 2 and 3 I forgot about it, but my opponent did too. \He never shot at it once.

Turn 4 Abbaddon dropped in with 10 Termintors and a Khorne Lord with Daemon Weapon. Loses 5 Terminator to dangerous terrain for landing on the wrecked defiler. Draigo tackles Lord and puts him down with a Psychic Hammerhand/ ID combo. Vindicare shoots Abbaddon with Shieldbreaker.

Turn 5 Vindicare shoots him with Turbo-penetrator round and brings him to a 1 wound, 4++-less munchkin, with Draigo, a Termintor Libby with VoD, and 5 Tac Termies ready to charge. Unfonately that ended the game.

However, the vindicare wound have ended him with a Hellfire round. 2+ to hit, with a 4+ reroll, followed by 2+ to wound, no armour save, 4++ gone.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

junk — GMT

parjlarsson wrote:
junk wrote:Yeah, a HW squad should be able to make short work of a callidus, but if the 4++ should happen to protect the callidus from ID, then not only do you get to wipe them out in assault, but now you have a stealth unit running around your opponent's back ranks.

The Callidus is a gambit, and it's not one with a great chance of success, between his d6 on arrival, and sketchy template weapon, there's a lot of luck involved, but going after small, valuable squads seems to be what the callidus was designed for, and has at least a small chance of being able to do it.

Basic napkin mathhammer here (keep in mind I'm a newb, I have never even actually played a game):

D6 attacks, average 3.5 attacks
ST4 versus T4, therefore wounding on a 4+, i.e. 50% of the time, so now you're down to 1.75 wounds
AP2 attack trumps a 3+ armour save (?), so they only get a save if they're actually in cover

So you just took out average almost two missile launchers and are gambling on a 4++ save against what's probably at least 3-4 shots coming your way unless you manage to put a wall between the unit and the 3" away placement. Hmm... actually doesn't look that bad. I suppose the Long Fangs could charge you in the next turn, but I don't know with what hope of success. There's at least a decent chance of tying up the Long Fangs in CC for a while, assuming you survive the crucial first enemy shooting phase after the "reveal".

Is it worth the points? Hell no. But it's the best use of a very cool model that could be a lot of fun. I guess I'll have to revise my opinion that opening with the Callidus is only worth it against T3 units. An isolated or small T4 unit, or a unit that's busy or soon to be assaulted, could also be good targets.

You've actually got a slightly better chance than that against, say, long fangs-
First - the hits on arrival - Here's the statistical breakdown for d6 str 4 ap 2 hits - Assuming no cover
17.5% chance of 0 wounds
32.5% chance of 1 wound
25.3% chance of 2 wounds
15% chance of 3 wounds
7.3% chance of 4 wounds
2% chance of 5 wounds
>1% chance of 6 wounds

Assuming 1 wound, Then Template Str 8 vs. L9, vs. 4 remaining models, a 40% chance of 1 wound, and a 28% chance of 2 wounds, 9% chance of 3 wounds, 1% chance of 4 wounds.
Assuming 2 wounds, then template vs. 3 remaining models, a 44% chance of 1 wound, and a 21% chance of 2 wounds, 3% chance of 3 wounds.

Lets give the assassin the benefit of the doubt here and assume 3 wounds total.

The two remaining fangs will return fire the assassin has a 52% chance of survival.
If there are 3 remaining fangs the assassin's chance of survival drops to 37%

If the assassin lives through the round, and no one else shoots at the assassin, then congrats,

If this entire exchange takes place in cover, you're most likely doing >1 wound on the initial hit, but the template is going to land 2 wounds, so we've still got 3 fangs.
Factoring in the assassins stealth, now his chance of survival against three fangs is 54%. The Callidus is a monster in assault, and will finish off the squad no matter who initiates the assault, so you really just need to live through the one shooting round, and if you play it right, you've got a better than 50% chance of doing it.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Deadshot — GMT

I take it the assassin can't assault on the turn it arrives? I don't have the codex yet.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

junk — GMT

Correct.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

Deadshot — GMT

Aww, that just ruins the assassin! A crap, non ID Template, and an average attack before getting a few dozen laserpens in his eyes. He can't even get into combat where he excells

Vindicare FTW.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

parjlarsson — GMT

I think junk got his "<" and ">" signs mixed up a bit, giving the "benefit of the doubt" on a 28% chance of two wounds is a bit much for me.

Assuming all the rest of your math is correct I'd expect average two dead Longfangs, minimum 3 left (don't they also sometimes sport a rocket-something Terminator or a 6th guy?) and a 37% chance to survive the next turn.

That reduces Callidus to either needing support in that round, or just using her to make sure you don't take long-range fire from the Longfangs that specific round, since all you can realistically expect is 2 or 3 dead dudes. But if those 2-3 guys are enough of a pain, then I guess it's worth it.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

junk — GMT

Fixed.

Assassins in GK - thread reboot [not competitive play]

parjlarsson — GMT

New 6th Edition rumours have the Deep Strike rules re-worked as "strike down, then shoot immediately".

http://warhammerswede.blogspot.com/2011/10/callidus.html

EDIT: Rumoured changes coming in 6th edition is Deep Striking units being allowed to shoot immediately upon entry into play. Maybe I'm grasping at straws here, but there's a few possibilities:
A. The rumour is full of crap.
B. Rumour true, but Polymorphine rule changes to make the Callidus essentially stay the same.
C. Rumour true, Polymorphine changes differently or is clarified or Callidus is otherwisely changed (my guess).
D. Rumour true, Polymorphine wording is unchanged, all of a sudden Callidus is looking a tiny bit better. Not good, but better.