<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Is this commonly written about an excepted as canon?
Is it offset against the fact that the 40k marine has better wargear than the 30k marine?

If it is true, then why don't Chaos marines from the heresy absolutely hammer loyalist ones, given a) they are better marines b) they have the added benefits of chaos gifts.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3487185.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3487185.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3487227.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3487227.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? 40k marines are better then 30k marines.
The answer is simple - there are not many of them like in the Heresy era.
Fewer number means better training can be given to all, since they don't rely on numbers but on actions of a single Marine.
And technology is slightly better then 10.000 years ago.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3487661.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3487661.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3487955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3487955.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Brother Coa wrote:40k marines are better then 30k marines.
The answer is simple - there are not many of them like in the Heresy era.
Fewer number means better training can be given to all, since they don't rely on numbers but on actions of a single Marine.
And technology is slightly better then 10.000 years ago.


I disagree

Fewer numbers = better training only works if you are considering a fixed training budget. Considering the effectively infinite resources poured into the great crusade I would challenge the assertion that "modern" Marines are better than their predecessors.

Technology is supposed to be pretty stagnant and therefore in 40k there are fewer examples of the really good equipment from the past. The fluff, especially the more recent fluff, tends to harp on about how the loss of forge worlds means massive looses of data that cannot be recoverd, while significant new advancement in science and technology just doesn't happen because those that try to do it tend to get done as heretics agains the omnissiah

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488000.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? 40k than 30k anyway? Fewer per chapter, sure, but there's a lot of chapters.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488008.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488008.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Durza wrote:Aren't there more marines in 40k than 30k anyway? Fewer per chapter, sure, but there's a lot of chapters.


Now we have 1.000.000 marines, maybe some few hundred more,less. And unknown number of Chaos Marines ( but they probably have the same number or slightly outnumber Imperial Astartes, I can't know for sure ). Ultramrines during HH had around 200.000 to 600.000 Marines. And were were other 17 Legions?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flinty wrote:
Fewer numbers = better training only works if you are considering a fixed training budget. Considering the effectively infinite resources poured into the great crusade I would challenge the assertion that "modern" Marines are better than their predecessors.


Working in smaller groups mens use of better strategy then horde swarming. And they now have codex Astartes to follow. I call that better training.

Technology is supposed to be pretty stagnant and therefore in 40k there are fewer examples of the really good equipment from the past. The fluff, especially the more recent fluff, tends to harp on about how the loss of forge worlds means massive looses of data that cannot be recoverd, while significant new advancement in science and technology just doesn't happen because those that try to do it tend to get done as heretics agains the omnissiah


Take the marines for example. Standard power armor in heresy time was mark 4 - 6 and 7 was rarely used being just out of production. Marines in 41'st millennium usually use mark 7 and new Mark 8 is being introduced into the chapters. And whiel most Chaos equipment is 10.000 years old Astartes equipment is new and upgraded sometimes.
And don't mistaken Mechanicus for their cult, they occasionally invent new things as well as Astartes. Take Land Raider Crusader for example - it's being invented by Black Templars.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488182.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488182.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Considering that they haven't been able to invent a non-exploding plasma weapon, I think considering Imperial technology stagnant is a pretty good call.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488307.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
It just has a very long and stringent testing period before widespread adoption most of the time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488370.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488370.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
daveNYC wrote:Considering that they haven't been able to invent a non-exploding plasma weapon, I think considering Imperial technology stagnant is a pretty good call.


They have, they just don't bother with them as they're weaker than the current plasma weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
daveNYC wrote:Considering that they haven't been able to invent a non-exploding plasma weapon, I think considering Imperial technology stagnant is a pretty good call.


They have, they just don't bother with them as they're weaker than the current plasma weapons.

Brother Coa wrote:
Durza wrote:Aren't there more marines in 40k than 30k anyway? Fewer per chapter, sure, but there's a lot of chapters.


Now we have 1.000.000 marines, maybe some few hundred more,less. And unknown number of Chaos Marines ( but they probably have the same number or slightly outnumber Imperial Astartes, I can't know for sure ). Ultramrines during HH had around 200.000 to 600.000 Marines. And were were other 17 Legions?


Source on this? I can't remember reading about that sort of massive Legions anywhere.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488414.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488414.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488792.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488792.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Generally the marines lost the balance the Legions provided as unified force of 20 Legio's. This 'weakens' the astartes.
In quality and training the present is better since the Legions had to speed up recrutement to replenish the great losses in the great crusade.
The training and selection process was improved after the heresy and smaller units ( chapters ) didn't need to take anyone but could be picky.

The major loss was the loss of trust amongst brothers.

The marines themselves are still not a monolithic block of clones but altered humans and have the same chance on fail or greatness as it was during the last 10.000 years.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3488961.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Brother Coa wrote:
Durza wrote:Aren't there more marines in 40k than 30k anyway? Fewer per chapter, sure, but there's a lot of chapters.


Now we have 1.000.000 marines, maybe some few hundred more,less. And unknown number of Chaos Marines ( but they probably have the same number or slightly outnumber Imperial Astartes, I can't know for sure ). Ultramrines during HH had around 200.000 to 600.000 Marines. And were were other 17 Legions?

Of which many were either crippled by extensive campaigns or small to begin with.

Flinty wrote:
Fewer numbers = better training only works if you are considering a fixed training budget. Considering the effectively infinite resources poured into the great crusade I would challenge the assertion that "modern" Marines are better than their predecessors.


Working in smaller groups mens use of better strategy then horde swarming. And they now have codex Astartes to follow. I call that better training.

Where is there any indication of Marines ever using horde swarming before the Heresy? They used the same tactics as they do now.

Technology is supposed to be pretty stagnant and therefore in 40k there are fewer examples of the really good equipment from the past. The fluff, especially the more recent fluff, tends to harp on about how the loss of forge worlds means massive looses of data that cannot be recoverd, while significant new advancement in science and technology just doesn't happen because those that try to do it tend to get done as heretics agains the omnissiah


Take the marines for example. Standard power armor in heresy time was mark 4 - 6 and 7 was rarely used being just out of production. Marines in 41'st millennium usually use mark 7 and new Mark 8 is being introduced into the chapters. And whiel most Chaos equipment is 10.000 years old Astartes equipment is new and upgraded sometimes.
And don't mistaken Mechanicus for their cult, they occasionally invent new things as well as Astartes. Take Land Raider Crusader for example - it's being invented by Black Templars.

Being invented by the Black Templars was the only thing that stopped it and its inventors being deemed heretics.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489069.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489069.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Source on this? I can't remember reading about that sort of massive Legions anywhere.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/385002.page]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489212.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489212.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489224.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Durza wrote:
Where is there any indication of Marines ever using horde swarming before the Heresy? They used the same tactics as they do now.


Tere are lot of examples, like Horus attaking an Ork Empire. He just rushed his entire Legion and break them, he teleported himself with Terminators at the Ork Warboss main base. Only he and Abbadon l;eft alive while his Legion swarmed the Orks outside.

At Istvaan V 3 Loyal legions rush Traitor one lines before they fall back.

World Eaters loved to orbital droped onto the planet, kill the defence force ass soon as possible and then move away.

My point is Astartes used Guard like tactics in the time of Great Crusade because they have 10.000, 20.000, up to 100.000 marines in Legion. 41'st millennium Astartes use Hit and Run tactics because they are only 1000 of them in a single chapter.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489248.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489248.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Brother Coa wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Source on this? I can't remember reading about that sort of massive Legions anywhere.


http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/385002.page

All that 'proves' is that the Ultramarines were big, and other legions were small.

Brother Coa wrote:
Durza wrote:
Where is there any indication of Marines ever using horde swarming before the Heresy? They used the same tactics as they do now.


Tere are lot of examples, like Horus attaking an Ork Empire. He just rushed his entire Legion and break them, he teleported himself with Terminators at the Ork Warboss main base. Only he and Abbadon l;eft alive while his Legion swarmed the Orks outside.

At Istvaan V 3 Loyal legions rush Traitor one lines before they fall back.

World Eaters loved to orbital droped onto the planet, kill the defence force ass soon as possible and then move away.

My point is Astartes used Guard like tactics in the time of Great Crusade because they have 10.000, 20.000, up to 100.000 marines in Legion. 41'st millennium Astartes use Hit and Run tactics because they are only 1000 of them in a single chapter.

No, they had up to 10'000. Only the Ultramarines broke this standard, and most were far below it before the Heresy.

Istvaan was during the Heresy, rendering it invalid as a reply to my point, but it was a special case, using blitz tactics. That's different to swarming them anyway.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489292.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489292.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Durza wrote:
Being invented by the Black Templars was the only thing that stopped it and its inventors being deemed heretics.


Technically I'd say it's because they found the STC data for it...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489296.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Durza wrote:
Being invented by the Black Templars was the only thing that stopped it and its inventors being deemed heretics.


Technically I'd say it's because they found the STC data for it...

STC smesh TC... that doesn't really work... regardless, Iron Men STCs are heretical. So if the Mechanicum decided that one was heretical, they would've tried to destroy it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489425.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489425.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Durza wrote:
Being invented by the Black Templars was the only thing that stopped it and its inventors being deemed heretics.


Technically I'd say it's because they found the STC data for it...


Technically the ad mech had it on the test runs already and everyone and his dog had a copy of the design so it wasn't possible to deny its existance and function. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489469.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489469.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
1hadhq wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Durza wrote:
Being invented by the Black Templars was the only thing that stopped it and its inventors being deemed heretics.


Technically I'd say it's because they found the STC data for it...


Technically the ad mech had it on the test runs already and everyone and his dog had a copy of the design so it wasn't possible to deny its existance and function.


After the Templars found it and spread it, yes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489476.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? Automatically Appended Next Post:
Flinty wrote:
Fewer numbers = better training only works if you are considering a fixed training budget. Considering the effectively infinite resources poured into the great crusade I would challenge the assertion that "modern" Marines are better than their predecessors.


Working in smaller groups mens use of better strategy then horde swarming. And they now have codex Astartes to follow. I call that better training.


Or you just have more smaller groups

Codex Astartes is only a guideline anyway ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489520.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489520.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? 40k marine. They are still genetically manipulated "monsters" that would make anyone in the imperium quake in their boots to have on their wrong side.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489537.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
I'm not sure if that makes them better or worse at war. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489774.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489774.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? 40K Marines are better than 30K Marines. Back in the day they let anybody in. The goal was to make as many marines as possible. Theory was they're still so much better than the army anyway what does it matter? Pretty sure nothing bad wil happen. Then something really bad happened.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489930.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3489930.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Omegus wrote:
I'm not sure if that makes them better or worse at war.


It all depends.
Look at Ultramarines and Emperor's Children civility.
Then look at Night Lords and World Eaters barbarity.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490109.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490109.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:40K Marines are better than 30K Marines. Back in the day they let anybody in. The goal was to make as many marines as possible. Theory was they're still so much better than the army anyway what does it matter? Pretty sure nothing bad wil happen. Then something really bad happened.

They didn't let anyone in. There were still trials, the Nigh Lords and Dark Angels had them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490157.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490157.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490162.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490162.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490199.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? They make like a few million marines (say it was necissary for all the current threats) and use this as a way to explain the massive number of marine armies we see in gaming stores.
They don't need to make a real big deal out of it. All the main chapters could send 100 marines to go lead a new chapter and thus we have such a wide range of marines we actually see in the real world.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490244.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
DeffDred wrote:I feel like they shouldmove the story forward on the marines and say the High Lords decided it was time to make a massive founding and when marine crazy.
They make like a few million marines (say it was necissary for all the current threats) and use this as a way to explain the massive number of marine armies we see in gaming stores.
They don't need to make a real big deal out of it. All the main chapters could send 100 marines to go lead a new chapter and thus we have such a wide range of marines we actually see in the real world.

...no. There's already enough chapters to incorporate pretty much any idea. The galaxy is a big place.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490393.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490393.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
iproxtaco wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:40K Marines are better than 30K Marines. Back in the day they let anybody in. The goal was to make as many marines as possible. Theory was they're still so much better than the army anyway what does it matter? Pretty sure nothing bad wil happen. Then something really bad happened.

They didn't let anyone in. There were still trials, the Nigh Lords and Dark Angels had them.


Content of character was not taken into account. Obviously they didn't screen for susceptibility to Chaos. The were producing Astares at an incredible rate back then. They had standards but they were lower.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490472.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490472.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:40K Marines are better than 30K Marines. Back in the day they let anybody in. The goal was to make as many marines as possible. Theory was they're still so much better than the army anyway what does it matter? Pretty sure nothing bad wil happen. Then something really bad happened.

They didn't let anyone in. There were still trials, the Nigh Lords and Dark Angels had them.


Content of character was not taken into account. Obviously they didn't screen for susceptibility to Chaos. The were producing Astares at an incredible rate back then. They had standards but they were lower.
That's a bit different to "they let anybody in". ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3490629.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Given that technological development was at its height before the Heresy, and technologies have been lost since then (loss of Forge Worlds, etc), I don't see any way to avoid saying that technologically, the 'strength' of the Marines has been reduced. They can no longer field entire armored divisions of Land Raiders, squads of Imperial Jet Bikes, hundreds of Assault craft (note the regrets of the Silver Skull in the new Gaunt's Ghosts novel).

Given that military strategy and tactics are no longer written by the Emperor and his Primarchs, but by lesser, mortal beings, I don't see any way to avoid saying that strategically, Marines have been weakened over the years. While I can't point to a single specific example of this, given that the Emperor and the Primarchs were regarded as 'pretty darn smart', losing your best generals should have some effect, right?

Chaos Space Marines are right. They don't make Marines like they used to.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3491610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3491610.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
iproxtaco wrote:It's not better, it's simply different. Legions were better for the Great Crusade, the Chapters are better for the defense that followed.

No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3491642.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3491642.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? SMs (and hummies) over the intervening millennia, slowing making them stronger and more resistant to Chaos. It would a depressing level of incompetence (perhaps making it more Grid-Markie) for the AdMech to not even be able to maintain a level footing with the geneseed tithes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3491659.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3491659.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
UselessSage wrote:a depressing level of incompetence


That sums up the AdMech for me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3491743.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3491743.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492314.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
1hadhq wrote:Aren't the things in the "old days" always better?
That is what is claimed. It's almost alwys false though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jackster wrote:No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.
It does when they're weak-willed beings of questionable loyalty to begin with...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492325.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Melissia wrote:
1hadhq wrote:Aren't the things in the "old days" always better?
That is what is claimed. It's almost alwys false though.

It's true for 40k though. People actually kind of understood the technology they were using then.

Jackster wrote:No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.
It does when they're weak-willed beings of questionable loyalty to begin with...

Chapters are generally friendly to ones that descend from the same primarch anyway I think. And they all worship the Ultramarines apparently. HERESY!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492346.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492346.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Durza wrote:It's true for 40k though. People actually kind of understood the technology they were using then.
Not in 30k. They had just barely recovered technology back then. In 40k they've had 10,000 years to study them, and the Mechanicus has been doing EXACTLY that the entire time along with searching for more and making new things.

Honestly, why do people think the mechanicus just sits on its arse all day burning incense and praying tot he almighty computer god? That has never been part of the Mechanicus' lore.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492389.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492389.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? 40K Marines probably aren't as good as 30K Marines. Fighting with your Primarch leading you shouldn't be underestimated, for a whole host of reasons. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492429.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Melissia wrote:
Durza wrote:It's true for 40k though. People actually kind of understood the technology they were using then.
Not in 30k. They had just barely recovered technology back then. In 40k they've had 10,000 years to study them, and the Mechanicus has been doing EXACTLY that the entire time along with searching for more and making new things.

Honestly, why do people think the mechanicus just sits on its arse all day burning incense and praying tot he almighty computer god? That has never been part of the Mechanicus' lore.


Yeah, the Mechanicus has spent the last 10,000 years determining which combination of ritual kicks and curse words best appeases the machine spirits of every random piece of tech. The Mechanicus is pretty good on the 'what' and the 'how' of getting technology to work, but they're absolute garbage on the 'why'. They're basically a cargo cult with a really good machine shop.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492803.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3492803.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
daveNYC wrote:Yeah, the Mechanicus has spent the last 10,000 years determining which combination of ritual kicks and curse words best appeases the machine spirits of every random piece of tech. The Mechanicus is pretty good on the 'what' and the 'how' of getting technology to work, but they're absolute garbage on the 'why'.
The lowest level yes. Magos and higher have a better understanding of technology than we could ever dream of. They spend centuries studying and understanding their specialty.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493094.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493094.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Jackster wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:It's not better, it's simply different. Legions were better for the Great Crusade, the Chapters are better for the defense that followed.

No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

It doesn't different? It doesn't better? Ok then.

Anyway, yes, Chapters are better for the current situation. What's better? A huge single army based in one place that takes a long time to coordinate a small portion of the army to the battlefield, or a small garrison force that can be where they're needed much faster? Yeah, the latter is better, plus I think you're over-exaggerating what the Chapters do. They're still loyal to the Imperium, and I've never heard of a Chapter refusing to help out where needed. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493174.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493174.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? 40k universe, that's no small thing.

Then you have issues like the Mortifactors refusing to fight alongside the Lamenters at Corillia, or the Dark Angels tendency to throw any battle plan out the window if they get word of a Fallen in the area.

The massive combined arms units that were the Legions and their Expeditionary fleets are far, far superior to the current Chapter setup. And that's exactly how the Imperium wants it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493396.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493396.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493456.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493456.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Durza wrote:And they all worship the Ultramarines apparently. HERESY!


They don't though. That quote has been mangled on the internet, it originally said that most Chapters considered Calgar their spiritual liege. Considering that a majority of the current Chapters are Ultramarine-derived, I don't find that too silly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493493.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493493.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493519.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
iproxtaco wrote:I think you're over-exaggerating what the Chapters do. They're still loyal to the Imperium, and I've never heard of a Chapter refusing to help out where needed.


The Defense of Hive World Corillia. Mortifactors abandon the planet and the Lamenters to the fury of the 9th Black Crusade...Because they had a bad feeling about working together with the Lamenters.


Want more? I can give you tons of examples of chapters failing to work together, failing to respond to certain calls for aid, revolting, slaughtering civilians almost institutionally, ect.

Shattering your best troops into small, autonomous units is a dumb idea. They should have stuck with units but institutionalized checks and balances into the command hierarchy...Instead of always picking one dude to do the job. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493655.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493655.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
iproxtaco wrote:
Jackster wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:It's not better, it's simply different. Legions were better for the Great Crusade, the Chapters are better for the defense that followed.

No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.

It doesn't different? It doesn't better? Ok then.

Anyway, yes, Chapters are better for the current situation. What's better? A huge single army based in one place that takes a long time to coordinate a small portion of the army to the battlefield, or a small garrison force that can be where they're needed much faster? Yeah, the latter is better, plus I think you're over-exaggerating what the Chapters do. They're still loyal to the Imperium, and I've never heard of a Chapter refusing to help out where needed.

It doesnt make for a better defense force.
Legions arent all base in the same place all the time, they can clearly divide into task forces if they need to. Their greater amount of resources means they would be better at solving the problems when they get there. And with better manpower they can sustain more casualties and remain combat ready.
Chapters will have to spend a long time to recover from a bloody campaign and as individual groups they lack a unifying outlook at a larger picture]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493718.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3493718.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.


So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494124.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494124.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Omegus wrote:
Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.


So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

Under the command the surviving loyalist Primarchs and the council of the high lords, yes.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494151.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494151.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Omegus wrote:
Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.


So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?


It does simplify things as far as being able to better put together something like the Great Crusade, or even defending the current Imperium.
Flip side is that it made things like the Horus Heresy that much easier to pull off.

That's why you have 1000 Marine strong chapters, with just enough naval capacity to get to a battle zone and perform a combat drop, but lacking other ground or air support units and without enough ships to be able to go toe to toe with serious orbital defenses.

I'd think it'd be obvious that the Expiditionary Fleet Legions were superior in effectiveness to the current split Chapter/IG/Navy setup; and the Imperium uses the current inefficient setup precisely because it is less effective. Worlds can be lost and won at retail quantites, but a full revolt of something equivalent to an old Legion would be the death of the Imperium.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494195.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Jackster wrote:
Omegus wrote:
Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.


So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

Under the command the surviving loyalist Primarchs and the council of the high lords, yes.

Yay, have them lead by one giant self-interested, agenda pursuing overlord. Bad idea, because, if you didn't know, that was the reason there was friction between the Primarchs, their sons, and the Emperor, because they were all self-centered ego-maniacs of varying degrees obviously.
Oh, and the High Lords or whatever their equivalent was, didn't matter for squat during the Heresy, it was the reason that event happened. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494204.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494204.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
iproxtaco wrote:
Jackster wrote:
Omegus wrote:
Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.


So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

Under the command the surviving loyalist Primarchs and the council of the high lords, yes.

Yay, have them lead by one giant self-interested, agenda pursuing overlord. Bad idea, because, if you didn't know, that was the reason there was friction between the Primarchs, because they were all self-centered ego-maniacs, of varying degrees obviously.
Oh, and the High Lords or whatever their equivalent was, didn't matter for squat during the Heresy, it was the reason that event happened.

Like it or not, without the Emperor the High Lords are the ones running the Imperium. What they did or did not do during the heresy is irrelevant.
Better to actually have a clear chain of command than each chapter flying around doing whatever they want.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494241.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494241.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344589.page]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494528.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Personally, I think the move to chapters was the worst decision they've ever made and one that was made in a time of fear and uncertainty.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344589.page


Well to be honest you wouldn't want for another large Astartes uprising, they barely defeated the Astral Claws and their allies in Badab War. Imagine if Astral Claws were Legion now.
Besides, chapter organisation is good for defense. And in case of extreme fighting they can always call upon several chapters to go to war.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494578.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494615.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494615.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Jackster wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Jackster wrote:
Omegus wrote:
Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.


So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

Under the command the surviving loyalist Primarchs and the council of the high lords, yes.

Yay, have them lead by one giant self-interested, agenda pursuing overlord. Bad idea, because, if you didn't know, that was the reason there was friction between the Primarchs, because they were all self-centered ego-maniacs, of varying degrees obviously.
Oh, and the High Lords or whatever their equivalent was, didn't matter for squat during the Heresy, it was the reason that event happened.

Like it or not, without the Emperor the High Lords are the ones running the Imperium. What they did or did not do during the heresy is irrelevant.
Better to actually have a clear chain of command than each chapter flying around doing whatever they want.

No, it's not irrelevant, because this is an issue that revolves around that event. The Codex Astartes happened because of the Heresy, you can't dismiss it when it doesn't back your point.

A chain of command like you want didn't exist during the Heresy either. Regardless, there is a chain of command that you refuse to see. The High Lords command the Astartes, but the High Lords are far away and aren't concerned with specifics, which is why a greater amount of autonomy is necessary for the Chapters to function.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrainDeleted wrote:You better make sure you call on several chapters, who knows which ones are going to actually care about helping you.

The vast majority, with few exceptions. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494618.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494618.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
iproxtaco wrote:
Jackster wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Jackster wrote:
Omegus wrote:
Jackster wrote:
No it doesnt, dividing your elite fighting force into many small fragmented groups concerned with their own self-interest and agendas certainly doesnt help defending the Imperium.


So uniting those self-interested, agenda-pursuing fragments into one giant self-interested, agenda-pursuing horde is a good thing?

Under the command the surviving loyalist Primarchs and the council of the high lords, yes.

Yay, have them lead by one giant self-interested, agenda pursuing overlord. Bad idea, because, if you didn't know, that was the reason there was friction between the Primarchs, because they were all self-centered ego-maniacs, of varying degrees obviously.
Oh, and the High Lords or whatever their equivalent was, didn't matter for squat during the Heresy, it was the reason that event happened.

Like it or not, without the Emperor the High Lords are the ones running the Imperium. What they did or did not do during the heresy is irrelevant.
Better to actually have a clear chain of command than each chapter flying around doing whatever they want.

No, it's not irrelevant, because this is an issue that revolves around that event. The Codex Astartes happened because of the Heresy, you can't dismiss it when it doesn't back your point.

A chain of command like you want didn't exist during the Heresy either. Regardless, there is a chain of command that you refuse to see. The High Lords command the Astartes, but the High Lords are far away and aren't concerned with specifics, which is why a greater amount of autonomy is necessary for the Chapters to function.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrainDeleted wrote:You better make sure you call on several chapters, who knows which ones are going to actually care about helping you.

The vast majority, with few exceptions.

That suggest the current chain of command isnt working. And back in heresy and before there was a chain of command. Emperor (Then later Horus) commands the primarchs and primarchs command the legions.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494666.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494666.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Each Legion had their own command structure, just like the Chapters do now, the problems lie with their commanders, and examples of poor coordination between Chapters are few and far between.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494694.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
iproxtaco wrote:
BrainDeleted wrote:You better make sure you call on several chapters, who knows which ones are going to actually care about helping you.

The vast majority, with few exceptions.


But those exceptions make all the difference in the world. "For want of a nail, a shoe was lost", and all that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494720.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494720.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
iproxtaco wrote:Then there's the same problem. Neither the Emperor or Horus could have individually commanded every Crusade fleet, just like the High Lords don't individually command every Chapter.

Each Legion had their own command structure, just like the Chapters do now, the problems lie with their commanders, and examples of poor coordination between Chapters are few and far between.

But at least legions as a more cohesive group has a clearer commands over their companies, rather than individual chapters today each with their own command.
For example, to stop a major invasion or wage a sector wide crusade would require many dozen chapters that would need to coordinate with one another. A task that a single Legion would be able to accomplish with better efficiency.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494736.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494748.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494748.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
iproxtaco wrote:That Legion would take three times longer to arrive, whereas the Chapters would arrive much sooner, and have coordination issues worked out long before the hypothetical arrival of a Legion.

Three times is rather exaggerating, the Legions had greater amount of resources beyond that of space marine chapters, they wouldnt need to wait for Imperial Navy or Imperial guards to mobilize and would have all their logistics work out before hand. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494779.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494779.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
iproxtaco wrote:That Legion would take three times longer to arrive, whereas the Chapters would arrive much sooner, and have coordination issues worked out long before the hypothetical arrival of a Legion.


You're assuming that the entirety of the Legion is located at a single base, same as most Chapters are now (notible exception of the Black Templars). Each Legion would have a home planet, or system of planets, but it's forces would be spread out over the area that it is tasked to protect. So Planet X would be the main base, but Legion elements would be spread around Planets A through Q, and if Planet Z needed support, they would contact the nearest base. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494787.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494787.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Jackster wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:That Legion would take three times longer to arrive, whereas the Chapters would arrive much sooner, and have coordination issues worked out long before the hypothetical arrival of a Legion.

Three times is rather exaggerating, the Legions had greater amount of resources beyond that of space marine chapters, they wouldnt need to wait for Imperial Navy or Imperial guards to mobilize and would have all their logistics work out before hand.

The Legions were rarely in the same place, if ever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
daveNYC wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:That Legion would take three times longer to arrive, whereas the Chapters would arrive much sooner, and have coordination issues worked out long before the hypothetical arrival of a Legion.


You're assuming that the entirety of the Legion is located at a single base, same as most Chapters are now (notible exception of the Black Templars). Each Legion would have a home planet, or system of planets, but it's forces would be spread out over the area that it is tasked to protect. So Planet X would be the main base, but Legion elements would be spread around Planets A through Q, and if Planet Z needed support, they would contact the nearest base.

I'm actually assuming the opposite. They would be spread out, any arrival of forces equivalent to several dozen Chapters would have to communicate with their command base, then link-up, then travel to the destination.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494790.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494790.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
iproxtaco wrote:
Jackster wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:That Legion would take three times longer to arrive, whereas the Chapters would arrive much sooner, and have coordination issues worked out long before the hypothetical arrival of a Legion.

Three times is rather exaggerating, the Legions had greater amount of resources beyond that of space marine chapters, they wouldnt need to wait for Imperial Navy or Imperial guards to mobilize and would have all their logistics work out before hand.

The Legions were rarely in the same place, if ever.


Heh? You mean that the Legions were rarely where they needed to be, or that the Legions were rarely traveling with full Army and Naval assets alongside the more Space Marine-ish craft?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494802.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494802.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494818.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Brother Coa wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Personally, I think the move to chapters was the worst decision they've ever made and one that was made in a time of fear and uncertainty.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344589.page


Well to be honest you wouldn't want for another large Astartes uprising, they barely defeated the Astral Claws and their allies in Badab War. Imagine if Astral Claws were Legion now.
Besides, chapter organisation is good for defense. And in case of extreme fighting they can always call upon several chapters to go to war.

The Badab war was complicated by the fact that two of the participants refused to fight each other and one one of the Imperial side fell to Chaos.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494929.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3494929.page GMT Re:Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
Also, in a logistical sense, most expeditionary fleets were not much smaller than a usual naval fleet or a Space Marine Chapter in its entirety, and those are not exactly unwieldy.

As far as 30K marines vs 40K Marines.. I guess that ultimatley depends on your source. 30K gene seed is purerr, the implants are less mutated (and generally have more of its capabilities), but it doesn't neccesarily mean they are better. For example, despite its drawbacks, the genetic flaws of the blood Angels certainly lend them some substantial strength and ferocity in combat. I also suppose it depends on who you recruit to join - even with their enhanced abilities Astartes can differ in capabilitles (some are taller, stronger, tougher, faster, better shots, etc.) ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3496127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3496127.page GMT Are 40k marines not as good as 30k marines?
daveNYC wrote:That's why you have 1000 Marine strong chapters, with just enough naval capacity to get to a battle zone and perform a combat drop, but lacking other ground or air support units and without enough ships to be able to go toe to toe with serious orbital defenses.

Except Space Wolves, who get to have more battle barges than several chapters combined, and can fight off an entire Segmentum fleet, because being barbarians on a death world makes for awesome pilots and space admirals.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3496166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/406157/3496166.page GMT