<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/27.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons 40k player turned Warmachine.
I play Kahdor, and enjoy the feeling of the durability and strength of the army. Only have 2 losses and 2 wins so far.

Anywhooo.....
I'm trying to get my friend into Warmachine.
He's interested in retribution, just because of their looks and the face that most people at my hobby center don't play retribution.
He has never played a war-game such as 40k or Machine.
I just sent him through an example of how warmachine is played minus focus ( I know it's a big part of the game!)
and he seems excited to play

Should he, a new wargamer, start his first army as Retribution? I heard they have a huge learning curve.
What are their pros/cons?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3595372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3595372.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons
However, their shooting has limitations. They can't handle Stealth, really, and most of their attacks are mid-power so you can't expect to blow up heavily armored units really easily. They do have some units that kill tough stuff (Stormfall Archers, anything under Ossyan's feat) but their shooting is mostly attritional.

They also have a number of tricks and special abilities to get around the enemy's defensive efforts. They have units that can move the enemy around the battlefield, units that can move past or attack through enemy models, units than can punish the enemy for using spells. Sometimes the tricks can win you games if your opponent is careless, but they're best used to put your combat units into good position.

All of the units are good, but Riflemen and Destors are best a support units in high-point games, so I would stay away from them. Battle Mages are good, but they're best under Rahn or if you have a specific plan for them, so I would stay away from them for now. Stick with the Dawnguard Infantry and Mage Hunters, or the Archers if you want a super shooting unit, or the Halberdiers if you want to play more defensively.

The solos are all great, and you can usually just throw them at the enemy and get good results. Two Mage Hunter Assassins can be brutal.

The Heavy Jacks are all good, but the Hydra and Manticore are more situationally useful then the Phoenix and Discordia (the character Jack). All of the heavies are very flexible, with decent ranged attacks and decent guns and good defensive stats, but they can be a little weak in melee and very focus hungry. I recommend taking an Arcanist solo if you take more than a single heavy.

The Light Jacks are okay, but they work better if you have a specific role in mind for them. Rahn, for example, likes Chimeras for the arc node, while Garryth likes the Gorgon to pin people in place and help with assassinations, and Dawnguard Invictors like a Griffon to provide Flank in melee.

A good starting (25 point) army would be something like this:

Warcaster: Ravyn (+6 points)
Heavy Warjack: Manticore (8 points)
Light Warjack: Griffon (4 points)
Unit: Dawnguard Invictors (10 points)
Unit: Stormfall Archers (5 points)
Solo: Mage Hunter Assassin (2 points)
Solo: Mage Hunter Assassin (2 points)

Ravyn is a fairly simple caster to play. She helps the rest of her army shoot well, and she's a terror in Melee. The Manticore is good at shooting (especially under Ravyn's feat) and it can deliver powerful hits in melee. The Gorgon can blitz through rough terrain to harrass the enemy or stick around and give flank to the Invictors, who can both shoot and fight in melee well. The Archers are just there to shoot, and shoot well, while the MHAs can hopefully get some lucky hits off in melee.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3596576.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3596576.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons
That being said Ret's caster are all about the same effectiveness wise, theres not one that is truly better than any others.

I would get your friend to look at which models he likes from the range and then find a caster that works well with them.

As for jacks - most Ret casters will only want 1 or 2 (there are no Jack casters in Ret) and when they do take jacks they sill have to fill a specific roll in the army as there will be few of them on the table. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3597475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3597475.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons UA. The Riflemen UA mini-feat is White of Their Eyes, which gives them boosted attack rolls at short range, and the officer allows them to CRA into melee all the time - and since the Halberdiers have Ranked Attack, you can literally shoot through your front line to wipe out an engaging unit and clear up your guys with pointy sticks to charge forward.

On and the Halberdiers minifeat gives them all gang, and they have powerful charge naturally. A massive +4 to their POW, and +6 if you CMA with them on the charge. It takes them from not all that scary P+S-wise to 'OH DEAR GOD' - reach troops with access to POW 13 - 14 on the charge generally will do some serious damage to jacks or heavily armored units.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3602855.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3602855.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons WM recently with a group of new players. When we were deciding armies, I picked Retribution. So far, it's been fun, but tough going at times. Our FLGS where we play is heavy in Hordes players, and I think Retribution, IMO, matches up better against WM armies. Stealth is too common in this game and is really tough to deal with for shooting lists. Also, Retribution is supposed to be the speedy WM faction, but I haven't really found it to that much of a factor yet.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3603575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3603575.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons imo. Ret is a solid all-round faction, but they do have a very combined-arms approach reliant on at least softening up an opponent before closing to melee. It's easy to go overboard on Ret shooting potential so that you create a true Gunline army that is completely boned against mass stealth or something like Barnabas swamp-pitting his battlegroup forward. Hordes in general has some truly terrible matchups for Ret with fast, relatively high ARM lists (fast Trolls, fast Skorne, beast-heavy Legion, some Circle) that can shrug Ret shooting and dominate in melee.

Ret Pros:
MHSF module
Good units, amazing solos
Powerful shooting
Hunter/Pathfinder in abundance

Ret Cons:
No stealth mitigation
M&M warjacks (hard candy shell, soft gooey center)
Warcaster/feat power middle-of-the-road
When not charging/boosting damage, somewhat pillowfisted]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3603686.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3603686.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

Casper wrote:...If you focus onoly on shooting you will lose.

To be fair, you can't actually focus only on shooting. Even by accident any Ret army you field should have at least respectable melee abilities. The MHSF is a good example, their melee stats and ranged stats only have a difference of a point of POW, but the unit also has CMA. I generally don't think twice about throwing them into melee especially since DEF 14 units can generally hold their own against MAT 6 attackers and to a lesser extent MAT 7 when they get the first charge. The list I generally run with Ravyn has some pretty heavy shooting, but usually ends most games with Ravyn or an assassin beating the enemy caster into the floor unless they walk into a ranged assassination.

sourclams wrote:When not charging/boosting damage, somewhat pillowfisted

I've played Ret for a while and took them to quite a few events against pretty much every list to be had and despite seeing a number of posts on Ret boards to the contrary haven't noticed any lack of hitting power. Their heavies have easy access to damage buffs in the form of an arcanist, all of their units in some for or another can either roll extra damage die, CMA or do some other type of damage buff:

MHSF- Jack Hunters and CMA
HGR- CRA
HGH- Mini feat, Brutal Charge and CMA
DGI- CRA and Flank
DGS- Weapon Masters
Stormfalls- Brutal Shots

The only two that legitimately have no damage buff outside of charging are battle mages and Destors. Honestly I think if you're having problems cracking armor with Ret you probably need a tactics review more than anything.

In the same vein as the shooting though, I also haven't felt terrifically crippled against Stealth or Barnabas. If Bane Thralls want and their MAT 6 want to pick a fight a fight with the MHSF and their DEF 14 they can feel free, but tartarus probably won't be helping them out since a MHA or Discordia can pop him with pretty average dice from well outside of his threat range. Against High DEF low ARM Stealth, Stormfall carpet bombing is usually adequate to whittle them down to ineffectual. And if Barnabas wants to pick a fight with Rahn he'll certainly TK and Force Bolt that Gator out of a swamp pit in a hurry and have a unit of sentinels give him a prostate exam.

For being so small Ret is suprisingly well rounded and their casters while often not amazing tend to fit very tightly into their lists and give much needed buffs (except for Vyros, but every faction has one of those). Ret does tend to be infantry heavy though since their jacks often feel bloated points-wise because of all of the abilities tacked on (Having a lot of trouble recalling the last time I used the Phoenix's gun) and their infantry are frankly some of the best in the game. If you made a list of the top 10 infantry units of all 11 of Hordes and WM factions (including mercs and minions), the MHSF and HGH would definitely be on it and Invictors are serious contenders for a slot.

WM in general has a steep learning curve especially if you're playing against more experienced opponents, but I really don't feel Ret is any better/worse in that regard.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3607629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3607629.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

Mastershake wrote:MHSF- Jack Hunters and CMA
HGR- CRA
HGH- Mini feat, Brutal Charge and CMA
DGI- CRA and Flank
DGS- Weapon Masters
Stormfalls- Brutal Shots

The only two that legitimately have no damage buff outside of charging are battle mages and Destors. Honestly I think if you're having problems cracking armor with Ret you probably need a tactics review more than anything.

So basically you're maxing out at a very limited number of POW 15-20 CMA/CRAs, POW 10-12 and three dice, or Brutal Charge. I agree that this certainly isn't terrible.

But against the true armor stacking lists like ARM22-23 Dire Trolls, or ARM22 Xerxis wall, or even Cygnar toting AS -clad heavies, anything but charging Dawnguard Sentinels is largely going to bounce off. Even a combo-striking Manticore has a single amazing attack... and then it's back to 'meh'. The new Skorne beast, Tiberion, standing around with Defender's Ward or Inviolable Resolve (ARM23, immovable) really wrecks your day.

I am not saying ABANDON ALL HOPE, AUTOLOSE. Not at all. But each faction has its strengths and weaknesses, and cracking heavy armor simply isn't one of Ret's strengths. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3607756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3607756.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

sourclams wrote:

Mastershake wrote:MHSF- Jack Hunters and CMA
HGR- CRA
HGH- Mini feat, Brutal Charge and CMA
DGI- CRA and Flank
DGS- Weapon Masters
Stormfalls- Brutal Shots

The only two that legitimately have no damage buff outside of charging are battle mages and Destors. Honestly I think if you're having problems cracking armor with Ret you probably need a tactics review more than anything.

Hold on, I've heard somewhere there's an elf that takes care of buffs, or possibly another few lying around that simply don't care...could be wrong... I have killed AS Cygnar heavies, Titan Sentries and buffed troll heavies without fielding any DGS, it's very doable. The Xerxis brick does pose an interesting question since I've never tried to deal with it, simply gone for the caster through it.

I think the big difference here is also that you assume Ret is fighting the entire army. The faction is more based on relentless assassination threats than some sort of long attrition game. Why am I trying to do anything to that Xerxis brick when I can just TK him out of it drag him into my army and beat him like a rented mule? Why am I shooting at the Stormclad when the caster behind it is going to die much faster? And why am I shooting the Dire troll directly when the rock carriers have much less ARM even with the buff and are just as accessible?

So I guess I fundamentally disagree both that the army can't kill things with buffs and that it neccessarily has to.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3609100.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3609100.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

Mastershake wrote:me sort of long attrition game. Why am I trying to do anything to that Xerxis brick when I can just TK him out of it drag him into my army and beat him like a rented mule? Why am I shooting at the Stormclad when the caster behind it is going to die much faster? And why am I shooting the Dire troll directly when the rock carriers have much less ARM even with the buff and are just as accessible?

Because in some scenarios assassination runs aren't going to net you the best outcome. Sure you'll win the game, but in a tournament you've probably tanked any chance of winning overall due to not winning by scenario.

The one thing Ret is not good at is attrition/long games.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3610158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3610158.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

Casper wrote:Because in some scenarios assassination runs aren't going to net you the best outcome. Sure you'll win the game, but in a tournament you've probably tanked any chance of winning overall due to not winning by scenario.

The one thing Ret is not good at is attrition/long games.

Undefeated usually nets you first regardless of how you got there. Regardless of that, Ret can still attrition if it has to, Kaelyssa generally gets games by attrition and Ravyn and Rahn can certainly run over an army while they're waiting for the assassination opening.

Oh well, seems like all of you guys must know the faction better than I. Haven't been playing for that long or competed in many events

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3610429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3610429.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons a necessity at large events. At the end of one such event, more
than one player will be undefeated, and often the TO will use a
variant scoring system to determine the overall winner.

Oftentimes, that variant scoring system is based on control points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3611024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3611024.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

Mastershake wrote:
Hold on, I've heard somewhere there's an elf that takes care of buffs, or possibly another few lying around that simply don't care...could be wrong...

Everybody and their mother knows how to deal with Eiryss by now. And in SR2012 formats you're limited to one Eeiryss between all lists, so she's going to be less common than 'in every listorz'.

I have killed AS Cygnar heavies, Titan Sentries and buffed troll heavies without fielding any DGS, it's very doable. The Xerxis brick does pose an interesting question since I've never tried to deal with it, simply gone for the caster through it.

Sure you have. The point is not that Ret cannot do so, it's that they are far better at dealing with alot of medium armor than a lot of heavy armor.

I think the big difference here is also that you assume Ret is fighting the entire army.

Actually the big difference is that you have taken a single, generally agreed upon 'con' of the faction and construed it as me saying that Ret is somehow uncompetitive because they lack the armor destroying potential of S&P Doom Reavers or an Enraged, Abused Bronzeback. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3611327.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3611327.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

malfred wrote:The situation Casper describes is a limited round format that is
a necessity at large events. At the end of one such event, more
than one player will be undefeated, and often the TO will use a
variant scoring system to determine the overall winner.

Oftentimes, that variant scoring system is based on control points.

Don't think any of the larger Warmachine tournaments actually use limited round formats, tho. They're all still played until there's a clear winner, although usually limited to 64 (or occasionally 128) slots.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3611809.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3611809.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons LOL. Ret players are so cute. Look at 'em.

Personally never seen one of their jacks wreck anything noteworthy. P+S 12 fists or something. Dunno. Small hands. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3612350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3612350.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

sourclams wrote:
Actually the big difference is that you have taken a single, generally agreed upon 'con' of the faction and construed it as me saying that Ret is somehow uncompetitive because they lack the armor destroying potential of S&P Doom Reavers or an Enraged, Abused Bronzeback.

This isn't generally agreed upon and I didn't construe anything. I'm simply contesting the point. I've fought a lot of opponents and more than a few have tried some sort of armor camp. It's failed more often than it's worked, but if you really want to believe the faction can't crack armor, knock yourself out. Arcane Assassin, Lady Aiyana and eEiryss in conjuction with a well contructed Ret army can bring down most targets without resorting to Sentinels.

correlation2 wrote:Personally never seen one of their jacks wreck anything noteworthy. P+S 12 fists or something. Dunno. Small hands

Wrecked a closed devastator in an activation. Manticore, Force Booster, Concentrated Power, Harm, Vortex of Destruction. Four boosted POW 22's did the job, who'd have thought. The only situation where Ret jacks have trouble with ARM is MM/TC because they can't get their support staff in. With an Arcanist floating around Disco swings two POW 18s and the Phoenix Swings a 19 and 15 (same stats as Juggernaught). Throw in Aiyana and their hitting power easily equals or exceeds most factions. The big drawback isn't hitting power, it's their MAT.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3612459.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3612459.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

Not to be a jerk or anything. Ret has options to simply avoid some high armor. Movement shenanigans and stuff. Decent sniper options. Can simply get around armor by plinking models with automatic d3s and stuff. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3613823.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3613823.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

correlation2 wrote:That's... way too many buffs to try and match a 7 pt Juggernaut. @___________@;

Does the Jugg have a gun? Does it have an imprint +2Arm for it and everyone around it? Does the Jugg have SPD6?

The comparison is pointless anyway. Khador doesn't do subtle which is what Ret are mainly about.
Myrmidons are expensive because they are fast, can shoot, fight in CC and the FF actually makes them more survivable than another Jack with the same number of overall damage boxes as the first hit or two is not likely to cripple any systems.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3614474.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3614474.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

Mastershake wrote:Wrecked a closed devastator in an activation. Manticore, Force Booster, Concentrated Power, Harm, Vortex of Destruction. Four boosted POW 22's did the job, who'd have thought.

So Ravyn is within melee range of the now-wrecked Devastator? That's kind of the definition of pillow-fisted; you need to dedicate 6 pts of support, a rather expensive warjack, and commit your warcaster to a bad position. Also, you're going to have to educate me, how are you getting 4 POW22s? A single combo-strike, and then what?

The only situation where Ret jacks have trouble with ARM is MM/TC because they can't get their support staff in. With an Arcanist floating around Disco swings two POW 18s and the Phoenix Swings a 19 and 15 (same stats as Juggernaught). Throw in Aiyana and their hitting power easily equals or exceeds most factions. The big drawback isn't hitting power, it's their MAT.

A&H can offset, but that's 4 pts of single-target solos and if she's used Harm, then she's no longer stealth and is relatively close to the front lines.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3614486.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3614486.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons
But yea. That's a whole load of firepower going into one jack. If it was central to the Khador player's plans then w00t. But most of the time I've seen a devastator on the table it's been placed to absorb hits taking attention away from other things. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3614507.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3614507.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons eEiryss) then you should be able to get some sort of return.

Compare what Skorne can do with Tiberion, pMorhoul's 2 Fury Abuse, and a 2 pt unit of min Beast Handlers:

Tibs: P&S18, 15, 14
+Abuse&Enrage: P&S22, 19, 18, free charge, 4 fury to buy 4 more P&S22s

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3614530.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3614530.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons
But Ret's strong point is most certainly bypassing those hard to kill jacks to tear out the squishy center of the army. If you can, you want to win the game without being forced to commit huge amounts of effort to killing the extremely tough parts of the opposing army, especially when you can just assassinate their warcaster. 5 of the 6 Ret warcasters either provide a significant boost to units that can bypass line of sight with shooting or have means of giving out that advantage or manipulating the board to open up fire lanes against the enemy warcaster or their support without having to crack the enemy's armor first.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3614998.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3614998.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

sourclams wrote:

Mastershake wrote:Wrecked a closed devastator in an activation. Manticore, Force Booster, Concentrated Power, Harm, Vortex of Destruction. Four boosted POW 22's did the job, who'd have thought.

The only situation where Ret jacks have trouble with ARM is MM/TC because they can't get their support staff in. With an Arcanist floating around Disco swings two POW 18s and the Phoenix Swings a 19 and 15 (same stats as Juggernaught). Throw in Aiyana and their hitting power easily equals or exceeds most factions. The big drawback isn't hitting power, it's their MAT.

A&H can offset, but that's 4 pts of single-target solos and if she's used Harm, then she's no longer stealth and is relatively close to the front lines.

Thanks for the demonstration of ignorance. The POW 22 has nothing to do with a combo strike, the Manticore uses the innate force booster for +3 STR, an Arcnanist is only a point and adds 2 more. With those two alone and for only a point of support, the Manticore can drop four POW 20's which is usually more than enough, if he combo strikes, it's a POW 25. Throw in Harm and it's a POW 22 (27 if you're combo striking). At the time though I had wrecked my opponent's entire army and he seemed overly confident that I couldn't kill the Devastator, so I shut that down his caster by throwing an infantry unit at him while taking down the Devastator and he conceded at that point.

So yeah, it took a whole 5pts of support to swing four POW 22's and a point of support to swing POW 20's. I'm sorry not every faction can have the Choir or beast handlers and comparing Ret to easily the hardest hitting faction is a little asanine. An enraged Bronzeback can out hit most Khador heavies and he's not even a character, are they now pillow fisted?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3615648.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3615648.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons
I'm amazed at how emotionally invested you appear to be in this discussion. And yes, four P&S22s (esp. considering a non-reach model) is still pillow-fisted. Yeah, I said it. Compared to what Khador, Menoth, Trollbloods, and Skorne can all roll out with en masse, it's just not a hard hitting faction.

And I have never said that makes them bad. Their hitting power is right in line with Circle and Legion, who also have very little trouble chewing through tournaments.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3616094.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3616094.page GMT Re:My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons enough damage to make you pick up models.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3616787.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3616787.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

sourclams wrote:Thanks for the clarification on the force booster, I forgot the Manticore had that.

I'm amazed at how emotionally invested you appear to be in this discussion. And yes, four P&S22s (esp. considering a non-reach model) is still pillow-fisted. Yeah, I said it. Compared to what Khador, Menoth, Trollbloods, and Skorne can all roll out with en masse, it's just not a hard hitting faction.

And I have never said that makes them bad. Their hitting power is right in line with Circle and Legion, who also have very little trouble chewing through tournaments.

Its an interesting way that you put that, especially when you consider that most of the factions you mention don't hit quite that high on the P+S scale, and when they do only Skorne and Menoth can manage it on a regular basis. The big thing about most of the examples that you mention are that the 21+ P+S attacks are tied to warcasters and their spells for the most part, or rely on a feat for a temporary boost. Circle damage boosts have downsides (auto-frenzy on primal for instance) and Menoth manages impressive damage with the Choir, but only one model can hit the 22 POW level (Avatar under Choir + Eye of Menoth) unless you're talking about under Amon.

The real question is if top level damage is what you need, or if we're looking at the ability to deal out damage in mass. If that single crushing blow is what you need, then Ret isn't that good for it. But reliably delivering fairly powerful attacks is something they do have decent access to, and the ability to boost up to 19-20 POW without taxing warcaster resources beyond focus for the jack is arguably a more valuable aspect. The Arcanist isn't quite on the level of the Choir or Beast Handlers, but few things are - and its a cheap, easy way to increase the offensive power of a 'pillow fisted' jack to the level of a Cygnar heavy.

There's a lot more POW 16 jacks in the game than there are POW 18s or 19s. And what? 9 total units in the game with 20 or more armor naturally? 12 or 13 if you count those with shields, with 7 or 8 being in Khador? The definition of pillow fisted always sounded weird to me when ARM 20 is a lot less common than ARM 17 or 18. Now you can make a good point that running into high armor can be a problem, but I don't think its one that shows up as often as many think in a more balanced game environment with fairly even faction numbers.

The Karchev brick is still a total pain in the ass though, but I think it falls under the same category as the Terminus McThrall swarm - overly specialized lists that thrive on going to the absolute limit for Jack Bricks or Infantry Machine in an attempt to stump the meta you're playing in.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3617381.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3617381.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

sourclams wrote:I'm amazed at how emotionally invested you appear to be in this discussion.

The internet does a bad job conveying intent I'm afraid. I'm more perplexed that you're trying to correct someone about their faction when they have proven record with it.

Your idea of pillow fisted is also a bit odd. A faction that can kill anything it needs to and generally doesn't have problems bringing down casters regardless of buffs certainly doesn't earn my definition, but I'll just chalk that up to different play experieces.

The Karchev brick is still a total pain in the ass though, but I think it falls under the same category as the Terminus McThrall swarm - overly specialized lists that thrive on going to the absolute limit for Jack Bricks or Infantry Machine in an attempt to stump the meta you're playing in.

This one had me laughing, mostly because of the reference to Karchev. I've yet to have a game with Karchev go more than three turns and he's never beat ret, but regardless you still get plenty of "I don't think the MHSF is that much of a threat to Karchev" responses every time someoen brings it up. Practice and theory are very different things.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3619845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3619845.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

Mastershake wrote:

sourclams wrote:I'm amazed at how emotionally invested you appear to be in this discussion.

The Karchev brick is still a total pain in the ass though, but I think it falls under the same category as the Terminus McThrall swarm - overly specialized lists that thrive on going to the absolute limit for Jack Bricks or Infantry Machine in an attempt to stump the meta you're playing in.

To be fair, MHSF isn't a threat to Karchev himself. Remember, Karchev isn't a warjack, so Jack Hunter doesn't really give you a bonus against him, so you're rolling at -9 at ranged against him. On the other hand, they will tear apart his warjacks with a fairly heavy sustained barrage at range, or a fairly potent 4d6 charge attack, which makes them one of the counters to it. But again, at -9 against a 30+ health caster, you probably need another jack or unit to clinch the deal against Karchev himself. You can get some amazing rolls of course, but the nasty thing about Big K is he's got the health to even out the advantage a few obscenely high rolls might give against another caster.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620078.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620107.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

Laughing Man wrote:Karchev isn't a Warjack, but he suffers damage as one. Jack Hunter works on him. Admittedly, nine off dice still makes killing him in a single volley a bit iffy without further support, but they're far from harmless.

Nooo, his card says pretty explicitly that he is neither a warrior model or a warjack. So I'm pretty sure Jack Hunter does not work on him. In fact, the only targeting keyword that *does* work against him is 'living model'.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620127.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620127.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620167.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

Laughing Man wrote:That's targeting restrictions. Jack Hunter doesn't look at what you're targeting, but what you're damaging. Starting on line 9 of Man in the Machine: "Effects modifying the amount of damage to or the manner in which damage is applied to a warjack also apply to him." He takes the extra die from Jack Hunter.

Ah, true enough. My apologies on that then. As always, MITM is an absurdly long and crazy rule.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620201.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

RuneGrey wrote:

Laughing Man wrote:That's targeting restrictions. Jack Hunter doesn't look at what you're targeting, but what you're damaging. Starting on line 9 of Man in the Machine: "Effects modifying the amount of damage to or the manner in which damage is applied to a warjack also apply to him." He takes the extra die from Jack Hunter.

Ah, true enough. My apologies on that then. As always, MITM is an absurdly long and crazy rule.

He's not a warrior or a jack, but suffers all the penalties of both including crippled systems and taking extra damage from jack hunters and poisoned weapons

Yeah, the rule is terrible. With Aiyana's harm up, the MHSF will kill him with average dice in 10 hits and because he's both on a large base and likes being up front for Tow shennanigans he just hates that unit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620338.page GMT My Friend wants to start a retribution army. Need help with pros/cons

Mastershake wrote:

RuneGrey wrote:
Laughing Man wrote:That's targeting restrictions. Jack Hunter doesn't look at what you're targeting, but what you're damaging. Starting on line 9 of Man in the Machine: "Effects modifying the amount of damage to or the manner in which damage is applied to a warjack also apply to him." He takes the extra die from Jack Hunter.

Ah, true enough. My apologies on that then. As always, MITM is an absurdly long and crazy rule.

He's not a warrior or a jack, but suffers all the penalties of both including crippled systems and taking extra damage from jack hunters and poisoned weapons

MHSF just tends to annoy me in general, since there's little you can do besides A) stay out of range and B) Hill. They're not super obnoxious for most warcasters due to their non-Caine levels of RAT, but ignoring LOS and overboost AND defensive spells is a bit of a problem most of the time. DEF 18 on a hill only helps until you run into Ravyn as well, then you're just all sorts of screwed on her feat turn.

There is only one solution for me.

Trencher Commandos.

Sure other factions have their own ways of dealing with them - Satyxis, Winterguard Death Star, anything starting with the word 'Errant', 'Deliverer', or 'Harbinger', but when push comes to shove, there's nothing like Deadeye and a few shotguns and a lot of grenades for dealing with sneaky assassin elves.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620445.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/412057/3620445.page GMT