<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Terminators/toughness"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Terminators/toughness"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Terminators/toughness WS, but given that terminator armor is pretty bulky I can see that remaining the same.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646266.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646266.page GMT Terminators/toughness

Billagio wrote:Does anyone else think that terminators should have different stat lines than regular marines besides the +1 attack and armor? I would think that since they are more battle hardened that they should have +1 toughness atleast. Maybe +1 WS, but given that terminator armor is pretty bulky I can see that remaining the same.

I ALWAYS house rule a S5 and T5. I just leave everything else the same.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646270.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646270.page GMT Terminators/toughness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646280.page GMT Terminators/toughness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646378.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646378.page GMT Re:Terminators/toughness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646391.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646391.page GMT Terminators/toughness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646535.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3646535.page GMT Terminators/toughness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3649184.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3649184.page GMT Terminators/toughness

Eh, not +1 Ws but +1 toughness makes sense to me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3649194.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3649194.page GMT Terminators/toughness
Apparently the difference between S3 and S4 is being able to pick up a few hundred extra kilos. Then from S4 to S5 would be... well, another couple hundred kilos. The recoil on an Assault Cannon would be at the very least almost one ton, and being able to withstand that would take a lot.

Terminators should get an increase in Str, but not toughness (I think the 2+ armor save covers that well enough), but the extra strength granted by the terminator armor should be represented in game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3649256.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3649256.page GMT Terminators/toughness
I miss my WS 5 Grey Knight Termies...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3649764.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3649764.page GMT Terminators/toughness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3649881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3649881.page GMT Terminators/toughness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3651778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3651778.page GMT Terminators/toughness inv not enough!

Terminators are already immune to most small arms fire anyway, they only suffer from plasma guns against which they wouldn't benefit. Do we want it to take 72 lasguns to kill one terminator when one plasma pistol can do it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3651845.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3651845.page GMT Terminators/toughness

Billagio wrote:Does anyone else think that terminators should have different stat lines than regular marines besides the +1 attack and armor?

No.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3651885.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3651885.page GMT Terminators/toughness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3652079.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3652079.page GMT Terminators/toughness

G00fySmiley wrote:I think with 2 wounds or toughness 5 (even toughness 4(5) ) they'd have to increase in points... if somebody tried to house rules S5 T5 ... i'd find anotther house to play at.

Two wound termis have been done before. And people hated them. Except the people who play them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3652108.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3652108.page GMT Terminators/toughness

Cerebrium wrote:

G00fySmiley wrote:I think with 2 wounds or toughness 5 (even toughness 4(5) ) they'd have to increase in points... if somebody tried to house rules S5 T5 ... i'd find anotther house to play at.

Two wound termis have been done before. And people hated them. Except the people who play them.

They exist as Paladins currently, but at least they are cost appropriate.

I like terminators as they are, heck I have 15 regular and 15 assault... I don't play my SM much (ok I have never played them, but I have a lot of the models and use them as a loaner army), but i feel terminators are very good at what you get for the points, anything more and they'd be broken.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3652158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3652158.page GMT Terminators/toughness

Consider the following:

Space marines are the equal of 10 men in strength toughness and all other capabilities (quoted from an imperial general who said "give me 100 space marines. Failing that, give me 1000 other troops")

Yet they only have +1 S and T over guardsman.

So based on this, terminators, if they had +1 S and T on space marines would be the equal of 10 space marines in power (the next lowest character, as space marines are to imperial guard). If this were the case, they would be tough enough to withstand the strikes of genestealers, and strong enough that with powerfists they would equal a carnifex. The fluff says this is untrue, as never has a terminator gone power fist to claw with a carnifex and won out of sheer strength. Also, were they this tough, they would be the equal of monstrous creatures who are 4 to 8 feet taller than they are, as well as the equal in strength of people with arms made out of pure adamantium or the xenos equivalent. Each tic of strength and toughness is an order of magnitude because of the base 10 system in 40k. Even with all that armor the changes it brings simply aren't significant enough to warrant an increased S and T modifier. That's why they get power fists standard (something described as incredably heavy to hold) and additional attacks base (each has 3 attacks on the charge after all, more with furious charge from the red thirst if you're a ba player). It's also why they can weild a thunder hammer with one hand and a storm shield in the other, where as other space marines take two hands to weild either. they're increased strength is shown in their equipment rather than their stats because even tho they're stronger, they're not strong enough to warrant the boosted stats]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3652439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3652439.page GMT Terminators/toughness

dbsamurai wrote:

Billagio wrote:Does anyone else think that terminators should have different stat lines than regular marines besides the +1 attack and armor? I would think that since they are more battle hardened that they should have +1 toughness atleast. Maybe +1 WS, but given that terminator armor is pretty bulky I can see that remaining the same.

Or, you know, the scale is logarithmical and as such doesn't mean that S10 is one MILLION times as strong as an Astartes...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3652541.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3652541.page GMT Re:Terminators/toughness raw might of a railgun (The most powerful gun in the game and most powerful weapon known to modern technology short of the titanic energies of fusion at the heart of a sun) compared to the power of an astartes, my standard progression seems more likely than a logarithmic function, since in that case the strength value of something with S1 would be in the negatives using a standard log function.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3653230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3653230.page GMT Terminators/toughness
Railgun is inferior to lets say a vortex missle in game and fluff.

Infact most titan weapons, and alot of the stuff the Ad mech is hiding and the sheer psyker power weilded by some sorcerors and Daemons in the warp all outclass rail guns. (Hell, why blow things up when SPAWN or create rifts into the warp and drag the enemy in?)

And isn't plasma the same fusion reaction from the heart of the sun in the palm of your hand?

On subject- I think terminators are fine as is. Make them any tougher and the points cost would be horrific. Table top rules don't translate to fluff very well, you all know this chaps!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3653271.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3653271.page GMT Terminators/toughness

Chaos Lord Gir wrote:Just going to say now-

Railgun is inferior to lets say a vortex missle in game and fluff.

Infact most titan weapons, and alot of the stuff the Ad mech is hiding and the sheer psyker power weilded by some sorcerors and Daemons in the warp all outclass rail guns. (Hell, why blow things up when SPAWN or create rifts into the warp and drag the enemy in?)

And isn't plasma the same fusion reaction from the heart of the sun in the palm of your hand?

On subject- I think terminators are fine as is. Make them any tougher and the points cost would be horrific. Table top rules don't translate to fluff very well, you all know this chaps!

Plasma is just another state of matter, and a super-hot one at that. Heat something up enough, and it will become plasma.

Railguns are indeed powerful, and a titan-scale railgun could have a longer range than any other weapon, except, of course, missiles. Currently, battleship cannons can fire their rounds that weigh over one ton more than 20 miles (32 km). A railgun is that, but it fires the round at a much, much higher velocity. A railgun the size of a battleship cannon could send a round with double the kinetic energy double the distance (perhaps more, actually, this sentence is based on all of the math I didn't do). Also, http://www.dailytech.com/Navy+Railgun+Fires+33megajoule+Shot+/article20372.htm the Navy stated they could send a round 110 nautical miles out of a railgun.

While railguns in WH40k are small beans compared to Titan armaments, scale a railgun up and you have a very effective weapon that would be capable of taking out ships in low orbit, as well as any titan that gets in the way.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3653431.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3653431.page GMT Terminators/toughness

McNinja wrote:
While railguns in WH40k are small beans compared to Titan armaments, scale a railgun up and you have a very effective weapon that would be capable of taking out ships in low orbit, as well as any titan that gets in the way.

The Imperium already has energy weapons that do this: Defense Lasers.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3655902.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3655902.page GMT Terminators/toughness
Do we really need to make terminators anymore powerful than they already are? I'm Chaos and I can't even do half as much as you imperialist Terminators are capable of and I feel mine are balanced. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656023.page GMT Terminators/toughness
1) These guys are in Tactical Dreadnought Armor. It would be nice if they weren't wounded one out of every two successful shots from a pistol.

2) It would not increase their effectivness against S8 weapons. For those characters that are currently T4 and have the option of taking Terminator Armor, this is an important distinction.

3) It makes Terminators more rare. With the exception of Dark Angels, these suits of armor are the most rare form of base equipment the Adeptus Astartes have. I would not be opposed to seeing less of these on the field while reducing the number of incoming wounds they are taking.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656273.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656273.page GMT Re:Terminators/toughness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656328.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656328.page GMT Terminators/toughness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656413.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656413.page GMT Re:Terminators/toughness WS. Altering S/T to match some perceived fluff (fluff =/= rules) would alter their balance distinctly. Having 2+/3++ is already fantastic.

For game balance alone, leave termies as they are. Fluff doesn't match rules, nor should it influence people to think that awesome armour should have bonuses to S/T.

If you want two wound termies, Grey Knight Draigowing is for you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656467.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656467.page GMT Terminators/toughness
I understand the need to show that terminator armour is tougher and stronger than power armour, but I think the improved save (2+/5++ vs 3+) and the ability to carry super powerful weapons the increase their strength (powerfists, chainfists, and thunderhammer) makes enough of a difference now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656667.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656667.page GMT Terminators/toughness
I really don't think most terminators are balanced at all. I'm not saying they are over powered, I think they are really weak. I play Eldar, and I have never been impressed by Terminator's performance.

They just cost too many points for a single toughness 4 wound. I would actually say that the 40 point Assault Terminators are priced right in the Vanilla dex, and the Tactical Terminators could use a serious price reduction.

Sure they save on a 2+, but everybody rolls 1s. and each 1 is at least 40 points down the drain, and melta + plasma weapons aren't hard to come by or anything.

Tactical Terminators need a buff in a big way, they are not worth over 200 for 5 and a CML or AssCannon. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656676.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656676.page GMT Terminators/toughness http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656724.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656724.page GMT Re:Terminators/toughness The only thing I would really change (having been a WH40K player since the 1st Edition) is this and has its reason in the tecnical name of the Terminators, which is TACTICAL DREADNOUGHT ARMOR: they don't wear only artificer armour with an energy field, they wear a lot more of servo-motors making them very powerful and similar to the Dreadnoughts.
So I would propose that all the Terminator models (it would also be good for Ork Mega-Armor) fight at their Initiative with Powerfists, Chainfist and Thunder Hammers, like the Dreadnoughts do.
These would make them very nasty and very feared on the battlefield, never to be underestimated, thing that sometimes can happen now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656890.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656890.page GMT Terminators/toughness

D.Azrinae wrote:I feel that they should be upped to 4(5) with a points increase. This accomplishes three things:

1) These guys are in Tactical Dreadnought Armor. It would be nice if they weren't wounded one out of every two successful shots from a pistol.

2) It would not increase their effectivness against S8 weapons. For those characters that are currently T4 and have the option of taking Terminator Armor, this is an important distinction.

3) It makes Terminators more rare. With the exception of Dark Angels, these suits of armor are the most rare form of base equipment the Adeptus Astartes have. I would not be opposed to seeing less of these on the field while reducing the number of incoming wounds they are taking.

1) you don't seem to understand how a wound in the game works. According to the BRB wounds just show that if the armor doesn't stop it they'll be hurt or killed. Considering space marines without any armor are quite susceptible to rocket propelled grenade rounds (also known as bolter rounds?) it makes logical sense that if they get hit chances are they'll get wounded. That's where armor comes in: to prevent a deadly wound.

2) characters in terminator armor are rarely the issue I find since massed AP2 weapons (or just a few railgun rounds) are quite effective at silencing them. The issue is massed terminators like in a squad of 5 where suddenly you have meganobz with 2+ saves.

3) Terminators are rare. How often do you see them fielded in BA armies? or in white scars or ravenguard armies. Or black templars. Space wolves are stated to have a plethora of terminator suits so it's logical they have a lot of them. Same with DA and Salamanders. Furthermore, even when you do see terminators fielded, how often are they more than 5 man squads? Even though you can take 10 the mechanics of the game make them rare, as they're expensive, and they require expensive transports with low carrying capacity to allow them to be effective.

They're fine as is they don't need to be messed with lol. Worry about fixing something like my vespid or the vanguard vets...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656924.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/414966/3656924.page GMT