<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/27.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3796540.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3796540.page GMT Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine by forcing them to kill their toughest beasts. And saving fury for
transfers means that warlocks will be playing cagier and using
less fury. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3796649.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3796649.page GMT Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
Generalising alot but Hordes are better at the beginning of the game, Warmachine at the end.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3796954.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3796954.page GMT Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine Don't forget there are limits about who you can transfer to and how much can get transferred. So transferring is by no means a guaranteed get out of being damaged card.
Fury, generally, is more flexible on a tactical level but it does have its limits. I've never seen a Jack attack one of its own allies (without the owner wanting it to), but I've seen plenty of beasts go after other beasts in the same army.
I've always heard it said that warmachine is about asset allocation and Hordes is all about risk management. Whoever can do it better usually wins.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3797054.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3797054.page GMT Re:Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
(1)beasts tend to be squishier than jacks, and they cost more (25% extra roughly)
(2) you need to take proportionally more, proportionally more expenisve beasts than warmachine factions need jacks.
(3) if you kill a jack, you've killed a heavy hitter. if you kill a beast, you kill a heavy hitter/wound sink/fury generator/animus.
(4)warmachine infantry is generally superior to hordes infantry and is fully capable of taking on, and taking down beasties.
(5) warlocks lose a lot of their oomph! when their beasts start dying.
(6)warlocks and warbeasts are self limiting. sure, you can run your warpwolves up to 12 fury, but trying to deal with all of those consequences next turn?
(7)and for the record, jacks beat beasts plenty good. my 7pt jug tore mulg a new one with only 2 focus. *shrug*]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3798166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3798166.page GMT Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/417531.page

I've only ever played the warmachine side of things and that is mostly Cryx and the only times I feel that I'm going to struggle to put up a good fight is when I'm facing something new. The fact I'm using focus doesn't come into it.

People are talking about the benefits of fury over focus and that's a good thing, especially as most people are reporting that Hordes are doing rather well in the tournament scene (I've phrased it that way as I have no proof one way or the other). I know that Boosted Damage has had a couple of chats about how they think the warmachine side of things should be improved. These talks/rants/whatever get the juices going and either help us become better or inform PP that there might be an issue.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3798575.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3798575.page GMT Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
Fury factions have to take beasts in order to generate fury, this means they have less points to spend on support and heavy hitting infantry.

Warlocks in general have fewer spells on there card than Warcasters and the feats generally are slightly weaker.

Warlocks loose effectiveness as there beasts die and to a certain extent can not play an attrition game.

Focus using factions can run a single jack and a whole host of infantry, thus overwhelming a Fury using faction.

Yes the Fury mechanic is stronger than focus, while it lasts! But when you look at both games as a whole, they balance out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3799399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3799399.page GMT Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
When you get down to it, Warmachine has some obvious advantages to mitigate the Fury mechanic. Cheaper point cost, better stats most often, better abilities, more spells, and better feats. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3799915.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3799915.page GMT Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
leontheconfused wrote:
Yes the Fury mechanic is stronger than focus, while it lasts!


Here is why I think the two systems are balanced against each other.

Yes, Fury can be devastating, especially in the opening turns of the game. But Warmachine generally has tougher models (with the exception of Trolls), with ways of staying around. If a Warmachine player can survive the initial onslaught of Fury-laden attacks, then he has a good chance of winning, especially if he can start taking down warbeasts.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3800154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3800154.page GMT Re:Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
Some warlocks certainly have smaller spell lists that warcasters, but this is more than made up for both in number and in versatility by being able to cast animi as spells. Same with special abilities, though Hordes beasts aren't lacking in at all and many of them do not cost fury to activate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3800675.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3800675.page GMT Re:Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
Kirbinator wrote:I never really see the cheaper points. Maybe in the infantry side of things when you look at things like Winterguard Deathstar, but they're cheap by anyone's standards. Warjacks overall seem to be fairly on par with Warbeasts in terms of point costs and only sometimes have stronger stats. Though, even a couple points of extra armor is more than mitigated by the 1-point heal bringing the beast back to full working capacity for the turn.


7pts for a basic khador juggernaut is quite frankly, a steal. most "basic" hordes heavies come in at around 9pts. typically warjacks tend to come out a lott better in terms of ARM, and damage output, whilst beasts have slightly higher DEF and Speed. while you can kill a jug in one turn, it takes a significant investment. and the same is true for killing beasties. i find the "its easy to kill jacks" argument to be a bit of a red herring. anything with 3 focus/fury is capable of just about killing anything else in the game. *shrug* thats warmachine. things kill things. the emphasis is on killing, not survival (like 40k)

the healing is never an issue for me. I learned back when i started playing against hordes factions that when you engage a beast, you kill it. you dont spread your damage between beasts. you dont wound it. you load up, use excessive force, liberally apply axe to face and turn it into steak/luggage. you cant heal it if its dead, can you? it is a simply strategy, but quite effective, i find. regardless, having to heal can really screw up a hordes player's turn sequence. it can really mess up potential combos. its not a game breaker by any means, but it is a spanner in the works.

Kirbinator wrote:
Some warlocks certainly have smaller spell lists that warcasters, but this is more than made up for both in number and in versatility by being able to cast animi as spells. Same with special abilities, though Hordes beasts aren't lacking in at all and many of them do not cost fury to activate.


swings and roundabouts. its only recently, for example that hordes factions as a whole have gotten limited access to things that can channel spells. warmachine factions have had arc nodes since day one (bar klhador!). the nature of the beasts/fury has been debated. yes, you can redline them all. dealing with the consequences can have further issues.furthermore, warlocks are generally more limited by smaller control ranged (5.5 iirc is the average fury), beasts must be in said control areas to be forced, meaning warlocks cant play the support game to the extend of support casters like haley, or irusk. they tend to play a lot closer to the frontlines as a result. which gives a canny opponent openings for assassination. again, its not a game breaker, but it is a consideration.

Personally, i find it all balances out. one thing i've noticed between my khador, and circle armies is i have far more freedom in selection in a warmachine army. with circle, regardless of caster, i find im constrained from the word go. before i even think about anything else, my warpack requires a substantial investment. i realise i need my 2 heavies, and a light at 35pts for fury+redundancy fury, and animi. i did the math, and even with a basic Kromac pack of a stalker, pureblood, and gorax, its 24pts in total (20 with beast points). thats 15pts left on infantry/solos. it doesnt leave a lot of room for manoevre. thats what? max blood trackers, totem hunter, and the lord of the feast. compared to the infantry swarm i can pull off with irusk, its nothing. and if any of those beasts go down, the battlegroup loses a lot of its abilities. With warmachine, i can go jack heavy, jack light, infantry heavy, solo heavy etc. i dont feel tied down by the "need" for warjacks in the same way.

aye, the fury mechanic is better. but there are a lot of littie things out there, that when added up, balance the scales nicely when you look at the big picture. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3801143.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3801143.page GMT Re:Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
A warlock's fury limits how much they can sustainably force their warbeasts. But one of the ways that a Hordes player can win is by going, "Full speed ahead! All beasts to maximum fury! Attack! Attack! Attack!" to try to kill a bunch of stuff, or a conveniently located enemy warcaster. After all, if you win that turn, then frenzy has no consequences. If all of the warbeasts are safely engaged with crippled or helpless enemy models, then frenzy has no consequences. So you have your big turn, and then coast through to victory on no fury next round.

On the other hand, as you add more points to the game, the poor unfortunate Warmachine player (unless they're playing a warjack caster, and sometimes even if they're playing a warjack caster) ends up spending points on units and solos and such because there's just not enough focus available to support more 'jacks.

So, near as I can tell, it comes down to the Warmachine players looking at the Hordes armies and thinking, "I wish I could put that many points into my battlegroup and not have as many units" or "I wish I could have the 'One Big Turn', too."
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3802353.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3802353.page GMT Re:Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
solkan wrote:So, near as I can tell, it comes down to the Warmachine players looking at the Hordes armies and thinking, "I wish I could put that many points into my battlegroup and not have as many units" or "I wish I could have the 'One Big Turn', too."

And Hordes players looking at Warmachine and thinking "Boy, I wish I didn't have to field so many warbeasts."

My Knight Exemplar army is a lot of fun. I run 2 light warjacks with it. A warlock trying to run a 35 point army with only 2 light warbeasts would have a lot of trouble buffing his troops.

Coming from Warmachine, I thought Hordes was tremendously unbalanced. Once I picked up my Hordes force the weaknesses of that system became evident (and once Warmachine was adapted to deal with Hordes. There were some structural issues right off the bat).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3803561.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3803561.page GMT Re:Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
solkan wrote:

A warlock's fury limits how much they can sustainably force their warbeasts. But one of the ways that a Hordes player can win is by going, "Full speed ahead! All beasts to maximum fury! Attack! Attack! Attack!" to try to kill a bunch of stuff, or a conveniently located enemy warcaster. After all, if you win that turn, then frenzy has no consequences. If all of the warbeasts are safely engaged with crippled or helpless enemy models, then frenzy has no consequences. So you have your big turn, and then coast through to victory on no fury next round.


Assuming you HAVE a next round. The problem with the Big Turn is that certain casters(Like Thyra or pSorcha) are waiting for you to do that and have your beasts redlined so that it's easier to pull off their assassination runs without having to worry about too much damage being transferred off due to not having enough(or ANY) beasts to accept it due to being full.

Sure, you may have excellent Frenzy preparation for next round, but sometimes you've simply ended up putting yourself in Checkmate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3803751.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3803751.page GMT Re:Is hordes really on the same playing field as warmachine
biccat wrote:
solkan wrote:So, near as I can tell, it comes down to the Warmachine players looking at the Hordes armies and thinking, "I wish I could put that many points into my battlegroup and not have as many units" or "I wish I could have the 'One Big Turn', too."

And Hordes players looking at Warmachine and thinking "Boy, I wish I didn't have to field so many warbeasts."


That's impossible. One person posting on the Privateer Press forum that they play Warmachine and are upset because they're being forced to use units means that Hordes players must hate units too. In other words, "How dare you insinuate that my grass is greener than yours, when yours is clearly greener."

Platuan4th wrote:
solkan wrote:

A warlock's fury limits how much they can sustainably force their warbeasts. But one of the ways that a Hordes player can win is by going, "Full speed ahead! All beasts to maximum fury! Attack! Attack! Attack!" to try to kill a bunch of stuff, or a conveniently located enemy warcaster. After all, if you win that turn, then frenzy has no consequences. If all of the warbeasts are safely engaged with crippled or helpless enemy models, then frenzy has no consequences. So you have your big turn, and then coast through to victory on no fury next round.


Assuming you HAVE a next round. The problem with the Big Turn is that certain casters(Like Thyra or pSorcha) are waiting for you to do that and have your beasts redlined so that it's easier to pull off their assassination runs without having to worry about too much damage being transferred off due to not having enough(or ANY) beasts to accept it due to being full.

Sure, you may have excellent Frenzy preparation for next round, but sometimes you've simply ended up putting yourself in Checkmate.


Just as much, that's assuming that the Warmachine player still has a turn after the Hordes player's One Big Turn is done. Not to mention the slightly more conservative approach of "Go for the big turn, but remember to keep just a little emergency reserve".

But it still comes down to there being a tactic for Hordes that a) Warmachine can't do, and that b) scales up with points. Add one Internet and the results are fairly predictable.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3804185.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/423528/3804185.page GMT