Latest posts for the thread "I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules."

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

ReturningPlayer — GMT

I was wondering if there is any alternative to White Dwarf? I'm pretty sure GW stopped their other agazines ages ago but are ehre any that deal with multiple games or an online magazine?

Also if I started a blog/online magazine type thing would people be interested in writing and submitting articles for it? And would people be interested in reading it. And would anyone have any idea if there would be any legal complications? Like could I use pictures of GW products without their permission, or only if I own them myself? Would it not be allowed to have adverts to other games, etc? I am no expert in this kind of thing so it would start out as a basic project which would hopefully improve with time. And final question, on this front, would people want it to focus on just GW games, or other miniature games or a wide variety of (and I hate using this word) "geeky" stuff, focusing mainly on war gaming and miniatures but with other stuff that people might find interesting?

I was also wondering how much do people contact and pressure GW about their rules? I know they are known to be stubbourn but companys tend to bow to overwhelming pressure from fans (especially when it cna be seen to correlate with a drop in revenue).

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

elspedo — GMT

GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

Magazine wise try unseen lurker out its online and in print and is a good alternative, if a little thin on the ground.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

ReturningPlayer — GMT

Yep personally I think the miniatures are, on average, head and shoulders above most I've seen from other ranges. The price is ridiculously high though and high price dosn't allways mean that people are buying it, the prices could be pushed up to keep making the same profits as they did before with a bigger market share with their now smaller share. But this isn't the issue here.

Thanks I'm browsing their site now. What are they like for the "hobby" side of things?

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Kilkrazy — GMT

Wargames Illustrated is a good general wargames magazine.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Leigen_Zero — GMT

If you want good advice, don't buy direct from GW, you can get your hobby fix much MUCH cheaper than buying from GW direct.

Personally, I would recommend the following two sites:
Maelstrom Games
Dark Sphere Games

Both offer very good discounts on GW RRP, and will introduce you to companies that produce the same (and better) hobby tools and accessories than GW for lower prices again. However I will say that the GW hobby tools are of a fairly good quality, but mostly you are paying for the brand on them (I bought a damn fine craft knife from staples for £2.99, GW equivalent is a lot more). The tools can also be a bit gimmicky (the 'mould line removal set' anyone?).

As for the rules, there's not a lot we can do about that, GW have always said that the rules are there to push the miniatures, they are first and foremost a mini company, and the rules are there only to sell minis (hence why various versions tip the balance slightly in favour of large (expensive) monsters and large (expensive) blocks of infantry.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

azazel the cat — GMT

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

And I suppose McDonald's makes the best hamburger?

It's not the best product. GW is the most established product. There's a difference.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Pacific — GMT

azazel the cat wrote:
elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

And I suppose McDonald's makes the best hamburger?

It's not the best product. GW is the most established product. There's a difference.

Absolutely.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

azazel the cat — GMT

Leigen_Zero wrote:hence why various versions tip the balance slightly in favour of large (expensive) monsters and large (expensive) blocks of infantry.

Indeed. This is why the mechanized 5th Edition is all about the transports: The Rhino is the main transport for almost half of the armies, and it also happens to have the worst dollar-to-point ratio in 40k, coming in at $33 US for a 35 point model

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

ReturningPlayer — GMT

Well if you are talking about a well painted, finsihed miniature which dosn't have any dfects I think GW is really good looking. I know there have been problems with their finecraft range but that is a seperate issue. Most completed GW models I see look great.

But please that's not what this thread is about and I can see plenty of threads spread over Dakka where this debate about GW being crap/the best is allready raging.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

notprop — GMT

On a positive note, the general complaining about the corporate entity that is GW shouldn't distract you from what is a fun game.

I started playing again a couple of years ago (rather than just collecting expensive toys ) and have really enjoyed playing 40K. I may start playing WFB this year if I can paint my FoW armies.

Re complaining, the GW production cycle seems somewaht monolithic to me. By time the do the codices and redo the rules tastes could have changed from what they wanted a year or so ago. I would not expect a rapid change no matter what we say...........unless their bottom line is in danger.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

elspedo — GMT

azazel the cat wrote:
elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

And I suppose McDonald's makes the best hamburger?

It's not the best product. GW is the most established product. There's a difference.

That's your opinion, my opinion is GW "make the best toy soliders in the world" FYI airfix is far more established at making toy soldiers yet the actual quality of the models/materials is sub GW.

oh and i prefer burger king

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ReturningPlayer wrote:
Thanks I'm browsing their site now. What are they like for the "hobby" side of things?

Unseen Lurker is very good hobby side, they usually have a hobby corner style section with pages dedicated to various conversions, painting tips etc as well as articles on making gaming tables etc in certain issues.

Definitely worth a look in my opinion.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Flashman — GMT

Leigen_Zero wrote:If you want good advice, don't buy direct from GW, you can get your hobby fix much MUCH cheaper than buying from GW direct.

Personally, I would recommend the following two sites:
Maelstrom Games
Dark Sphere Games

Further to this, if you make the effort, there are astounding bargains to be had on ebay even on BNIB stuff. Wait two/three months after a initial release and then swoop in and pick up all those impulse purchases for cheap

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Fafnir — GMT

elspedo wrote:"make the best toy soliders in the world"

Nope, they really don't. They make some fairly solid kits (their plastic kits are exceptional), but they have problems with adding way too much "stuff" to a model just for the sake of cluttering it, and their proportions are horrendous. I'd say that the above companies, although much smaller, make much better models.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

filbert — GMT

I would add to the list the Carnevale range. Whilst pricey, the figures are superb and the level of detail is outstanding especially when rendered in metal.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Howard A Treesong — GMT

elspedo wrote:
That's your opinion, my opinion is GW "make the best toy soliders in the world" FYI airfix is far more established at making toy soldiers yet the actual quality of the models/materials is sub GW.

I'd say it was an opinion based on ignorance of the wider miniatures hobby. GW really aren't near the top for quality at all, they are a good quality and ubiquitous. But 'the best in the world'? Don't be too quick to parrot the company line.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

oni — GMT

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

Magazine wise try unseen lurker out its online and in print and is a good alternative, if a little thin on the ground.

I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure their stock is up 40% because of the video game Space Marine.

azazel the cat wrote:
elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

And I suppose McDonald's makes the best hamburger?

It's not the best product. GW is the most established product. There's a difference.

Right on, but I do love me some McDonald's.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

NoArmorSave — GMT

The thing is, when you are talking about playing other game systems, they will eventually die.

In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K.

If I was playing other games, they would likely be sitting on the shelf, because I probably wouldn't be able to find anyone to play with. Essentially, they become board games, instead
of a living miniature game.

Dead Games: Warzone, Vor, Void, Crucible, Chronopia (my personal favorite game next to 40K. I still have 6 armies for it), Mage Knight, Silent Death,
Plastic Battletech, Confrontation, AT-43, Star Wars Miniatures, D&D Miniatures, Dreamblade, Celtos, Leviathan. I am sure there are a lot more I have left out.

Now most of the above are great games, especially Chronopia, but trying to find other players is like finding a needle in a haystack. This list doesn't even touch on
all of the dead GW specialist games.

Current games that I expect to be dead within the next 5-10 years: Infinity, Anima Tactics, Flames of War, all of the Spartan Games, Dark Age, Monsterpocalypse,
Heroclix, Malifaux, and possibly Warmachine\Hordes. Warmachine\Hordes may be the only game that will survive, and that is not certain IMO.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

inquisitorlewis — GMT

azazel the cat wrote:
elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

And I suppose McDonald's makes the best hamburger?

It's not the best product. GW is the most established product. There's a difference.

I have to agree with this statement. There is a ton of very very good model manufacturers out there. Scribor does some awesome work (imo) also Studio McVeys' Sedition Wars line is very very nice. I think their Vangards would make awesome IG proxies.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

elspedo — GMT

Howard A Treesong wrote:
elspedo wrote:
That's your opinion, my opinion is GW "make the best toy soliders in the world" FYI airfix is far more established at making toy soldiers yet the actual quality of the models/materials is sub GW.

I'd say it was an opinion based on ignorance of the wider miniatures hobby. GW really aren't near the top for quality at all, they are a good quality and ubiquitous. But 'the best in the world'? Don't be too quick to parrot the company line.

Exactly the reason I don't like posting on dakka, I put my opinion:

Opinion-a PERSONAL view, attitude, or appraisal.

Across and because it doesn't match the view of an internet warrior with a cartoon girl sucking an ice pop as his avatar I get called ignorant.

Goodbye dakka.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

TheNewMexicanGeneral — GMT

I have to say that the issues about hobby magazines has a lot to do with the readily available cornucopia of resources available at your fingers with the internet. While I do wish GW would start making White Dwarf more hobby oriented and less sales oriented I do have to concede that I can probably find anything theyd ever possibly print on the net in various different interpretations and and styles.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

inquisitorlewis — GMT

TheNewMexicanGeneral wrote:I have to say that the issues about hobby magazines has a lot to do with the readily available cornucopia of resources available at your fingers with the internet. While I do wish GW would start making White Dwarf more hobby oriented and less sales oriented I do have to concede that I can probably find anything theyd ever possibly print on the net in various different interpretations and and styles.

Very good point.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Lord Poison — GMT

NoArmorSave wrote:The thing is, when you are talking about playing other game systems, they will eventually die.

In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K.

If I was playing other games, they would likely be sitting on the shelf, because I probably wouldn't be able to find anyone to play with. Essentially, they become board games, instead
of a living miniature game.

Dead Games: Warzone, Vor, Void, Crucible, Chronopia (my personal favorite game next to 40K. I still have 6 armies for it), Mage Knight, Silent Death,
Plastic Battletech, Confrontation, AT-43, Star Wars Miniatures, D&D Miniatures, Dreamblade, Celtos, Leviathan. I am sure there are a lot more I have left out.

Now most of the above are great games, especially Chronopia, but trying to find other players is like finding a needle in a haystack. This list doesn't even touch on
all of the dead GW specialist games.

Current games that I expect to be dead within the next 5-10 years: Infinity, Anima Tactics, Flames of War, all of the Spartan Games, Dark Age, Monsterpocalypse,
Heroclix, Malifaux, and possibly Warmachine\Hordes. Warmachine\Hordes may be the only game that will survive, and that is not certain IMO.

so what everything? I really don't think GW, in its slipping popularity, is going to somehow toss all the other games, that are gaining a good foothold, aside
warhammer just isnt that good

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

azazel the cat — GMT

elspedo wrote:Exactly the reason I don't like posting on dakka, I put my opinion:

Opinion-a PERSONAL view, attitude, or appraisal.

You posted a statement, not an opinion. Let me remind you of what you posted:

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

Opinions begin with "my opinion..., IMO..., I believe..., etc." Your statement does not.

elspedo wrote:Across and because it doesn't match the view of an internet warrior with a cartoon girl sucking an ice pop as his avatar I get called ignorant.

Goodbye dakka.

Welcome to the Internet, elspedo

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

notprop — GMT

You really don’t have to preface everything you say with IMO/IMHO for it to be clear it is your opinion.

It's a discussion board, its nearly all opinion....IMHO.

Back on topic being Off-topic - Damn NoArmourSave (there, I spelled your name right for you ), you are a little pessimistic there mate. Also I thought that Battletech was still going strong, they just released a 25 year anniversary version.

I don't see FoW dieing out anytime soon, it seems to be the obligatory WW2 these days with the only market visibility anything like GW.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Kaptajn Congoboy — GMT

There are quite a few companies out there which seem to have a well-established player base and aren't going anyway soon. Battlefront is 10 years old this year, Privateer Press had its 10 year anniversary last year. Both of those are, or have for some time, been branching out from being pure miniatures game companies too. Battletech has changed owner-publisher a few times, but is still going strong.

In addition, we have a number of new companies that seem to be going strong as well. Spartan Games is only three years old, but have filled a void within the miniatures gaming scene that others (see Dreadfleet) don't seem to be able to exploit. Corvus Belli has been doing Infinity for 6 years now soon, and had 15mm lines before that; the current Infinity edition really seems to have hit the jackpot. Wyrd has only had Malifaux out for 2 years, but they've been making miniatures for 6 years.

Also, older lines are getting makeovers - Dark Age recently woke up again, as did Hell Dorado. Target Games went under, but as far as I know the Warzone/Chronopia lines were selling fairly well; it was their print publications that led to the restructuring.

Overall, I think we are living in a golden age of miniatures gaming as online presences are helping spread what might once have been niche games. It might be the last gasp before the entire hobby dies out, but as it is, I think we are seeing an expansion of the miniatures gaming hobby overall.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

-Loki- — GMT

Leigen_Zero wrote:As for the rules, there's not a lot we can do about that, GW have always said that the rules are there to push the miniatures, they are first and foremost a mini company, and the rules are there only to sell minis (hence why various versions tip the balance slightly in favour of large (expensive) monsters and large (expensive) blocks of infantry.

There's plenty you can do about the rules if you're playing with a group of friends. People seem supremely allergic to house-ruling these days.

All through playing 40k with my brother and other friends, we've changed rules we didn't like to what we thought they worked better as, even down to allowing strange army list alterations. Opponents permission still of course - we don't act like total douches towards each other. For example, my brother has, ever since 2nd edition Codex Assassins, run a Vindicare in his Imperial lists. It's just something he does. With Grey Knights not allowing allies and the WD Sisters codex not having Assassins at all, we just let him use the Vindicare choice from Grey Knights in his Marine and Guard lists. No harm. We also house rule things like wound allocation, terrain effects, etc to what we want them to do.

Maybe it's the tournament mentality a lot of people bring to message boards, but it's disappointing to see so few people treat the rules as a starting point.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Kaptajn Congoboy — GMT

-Loki- wrote:
There's plenty you can do about the rules if you're playing with a group of friends. People seem supremely allergic to house-ruling these days..

Having been both a basement-dwelling house-ruling gamer with my group of friends, and having played in larger shops and clubs with a considerably larger group of people, I can definitely tell you what is most interesting. The "problem" is that those public, larger scenes requires uniform, tight rulesets in well-designed games suitable both for casual and competitive play to operate effectively, get new people into the games and grow a good, friendly athmosphere. The advantages over circle-of-friends playing is that you have a much larger circle of players, far more interesting games, and *gasp* aquire new friends.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

PhantomViper — GMT

NoArmorSave wrote:
In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K.

Not if you wanted to play them in any of their stores you can't.

Also, funnily enough, I can still use my Cygnar and Fallschirmjager armies from 10 years ago in the current editions of their respective games... Go figure...

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Pacific — GMT

What was that about anime girl sucking on a lollipop?

I will say, if the likes of Warmachine/Privateer Press do go under, then we are all in trouble - most likely it will mean that the entire industry is probably about to croak.

Loki wrote:Maybe it's the tournament mentality a lot of people bring to message boards, but it's disappointing to see so few people treat the rules as a starting point.

I agree entirely. The rules are there as a guideline, nothing more, and for GW that has been a central tenet of their design ethos going back to the very beginning of the company.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

PhantomViper — GMT

elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

Their stock price isn't up 40%, their profits are, and most of that is because of a payoff. They are in fact selling less miniatures now than they have been since the LoTR movies came out.

And you can say that they have the best plastic miniatures and I'll probably agree, their non-plastic miniatures are mostly crap compared to every other major manufacturer out there. And even in their plastics, their newer releases have all been "too busy" for my licking...

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Lorizael — GMT

PhantomViper wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:
In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K.

Not if you wanted to play them in any of their stores you can't.

you can use any GW models in any GW store if you want. That's kinda the point. Never had a problem in any of the tens of stores I've visited and played in.

In regards to "best miniatures in the world", it is all a matter of opinion. Personally I've owned or handled models from Reaper, PP, Mantic, AoW, Spartan and many, many others. I still haven't seen anything that can compare with GW plastic or metal models. Better sculpted, better quality... (I'll cunningly avoid talking about finecast...)

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

notprop — GMT

PhantomViper wrote:
elspedo wrote:GW stock prices are up 40% so even though people on here like to complain people are still buying the product as lets face it its the best product out there (no finecast rants please).

Their stock price isn't up 40%, their profits are, and most of that is because of a payoff. They are in fact selling less miniatures now than they have been since the LoTR movies came out.

And you can say that they have the best plastic miniatures and I'll probably agree, their non-plastic miniatures are mostly crap compared to every other major manufacturer out there. And even in their plastics, their newer releases have all been "too busy" for my licking...

You think that they are too busy but you do lick them?

Pack that in pervert, there's children about !

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

PhantomViper — GMT

Pacific wrote:

Loki wrote:Maybe it's the tournament mentality a lot of people bring to message boards, but it's disappointing to see so few people treat the rules as a starting point.

I agree entirely. The rules are there as a guideline, nothing more, and for GW that has been a central tenet of their design ethos going back to the very beginning of the company.

And one of their biggest BS lines, since they use that as an excuse for not tightening up their rules and people buy it hook line and sinker...

News flash everyone, as soon as you buy a rules set you can do anything you wan't with it, you don't need express permission from the creators to do it, if you modify Warmachine and Flames of War, PP isn't going to send a Dire Troll to your house to eat you neither will the SS arrest you for crimes against the rules!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lorizael wrote:
In regards to "best miniatures in the world", it is all a matter of opinion. Personally I've owned or handled models from Reaper, PP, Mantic, AoW, Spartan and many, many others. I still haven't seen anything that can compare with GW plastic or metal models. Better sculpted, better quality... (I'll cunningly avoid talking about finecast...)

GW doesn't make metal models anymore, does it? Which means that you have either plastic miniatures (which I already said were some if not the best out there), and Failcast, that everyone is treating like isn't made by GW or doesn't count for some reason...

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Howard A Treesong — GMT

elspedo wrote:
Howard A Treesong wrote:
elspedo wrote:
That's your opinion, my opinion is GW "make the best toy soliders in the world" FYI airfix is far more established at making toy soldiers yet the actual quality of the models/materials is sub GW.

I'd say it was an opinion based on ignorance of the wider miniatures hobby. GW really aren't near the top for quality at all, they are a good quality and ubiquitous. But 'the best in the world'? Don't be too quick to parrot the company line.

Exactly the reason I don't like posting on dakka, I put my opinion:

Opinion-a PERSONAL view, attitude, or appraisal.

Across and because it doesn't match the view of an internet warrior with a cartoon girl sucking an ice pop as his avatar I get called ignorant.

Goodbye dakka.

I think you need to calm down bud. It's a discussion board, people say something, others will challenge it, that doesn't make me an 'internet warrior'. I just happened to think that your opinion was based on a flawed premise, just because it is your 'opinion' doesn't mean that it has to go undisputed. Chillax.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Pacific — GMT

Lorizael wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:
In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K.

Not if you wanted to play them in any of their stores you can't.

you can use any GW models in any GW store if you want. That's kinda the point. Never had a problem in any of the tens of stores I've visited and played in.

In regards to "best miniatures in the world", it is all a matter of opinion. Personally I've owned or handled models from Reaper, PP, Mantic, AoW, Spartan and many, many others. I still haven't seen anything that can compare with GW plastic or metal models. Better sculpted, better quality... (I'll cunningly avoid talking about finecast...)

Like you say, it's all a matter of opinion. With regards to sculpting, it's important to remember that a lot of the sculptors are free agents, moving between companies and doing sculpts for various people (such as the Perry twins). Or they move backwards and forwards, quite often leaving GW after a while and making their own miniature line (such as Mike McVey). I will agree Jes Goodwin is probably one of the best GW has who works with them, although even he is doing work for Studio McVey now. There is basically a pool of talent, traditionally centred in the UK but now expanding (look at some of the stuff the Spanish Corvus Belli does for Infinity), as much as I used to like to think otherwise, there aren't actually people locked in a room in Nottingham, chained to a table and doing it all for 'hobby love'

I will say however that GW serves as a great training ground for the industry as a whole, both in terms of art and games design. A lot of the guys in some of the most popular rival companies (FoW and Mantic etc.) started their careers and honed their talents working for GW. When they were 'let out of the box' as it were, some of the stuff they have come up with since has been exceptional.

Also how do you define 'quality'? Like you say, it's better not to mention Finecast, but in terms of metals I've found there hasn't really been anything to separate GW from any other manufacturer you can care to mention. The end result of using metal seems to be a whole lot less error prone than resin.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Juicifer — GMT

NoArmorSave wrote:The thing is, when you are talking about playing other game systems, they will eventually die.

Current games that I expect to be dead within the next 5-10 years: Infinity, Anima Tactics, Flames of War, all of the Spartan Games, Dark Age, Monsterpocalypse,
Heroclix, Malifaux, and possibly Warmachine\Hordes. Warmachine\Hordes may be the only game that will survive, and that is not certain IMO.

If Infinity, Warmachine & Hordes are going to die, then it will be because they died laughing.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

NoArmorSave — GMT

Lord Poison wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:The thing is, when you are talking about playing other game systems, they will eventually die.

In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K.

If I was playing other games, they would likely be sitting on the shelf, because I probably wouldn't be able to find anyone to play with. Essentially, they become board games, instead
of a living miniature game.

Dead Games: Warzone, Vor, Void, Crucible, Chronopia (my personal favorite game next to 40K. I still have 6 armies for it), Mage Knight, Silent Death,
Plastic Battletech, Confrontation, AT-43, Star Wars Miniatures, D&D Miniatures, Dreamblade, Celtos, Leviathan. I am sure there are a lot more I have left out.

Now most of the above are great games, especially Chronopia, but trying to find other players is like finding a needle in a haystack. This list doesn't even touch on
all of the dead GW specialist games.

Current games that I expect to be dead within the next 5-10 years: Infinity, Anima Tactics, Flames of War, all of the Spartan Games, Dark Age, Monsterpocalypse,
Heroclix, Malifaux, and possibly Warmachine\Hordes. Warmachine\Hordes may be the only game that will survive, and that is not certain IMO.

so what everything? I really don't think GW, in its slipping popularity, is going to somehow toss all the other games, that are gaining a good foothold, aside
warhammer just isnt that good

" in its slipping popularity"
Can you site your source on this? I say Warhammer 40,000 has never been more popular.

"warhammer just isnt that good"
Warhammer Fantasy isnt good from a rules perspective. However, Warhammer 40,000 is. 5th edition is the best rules incarnation yet, though there are balance issues.
I would rate it the #1 wargame of all time, and the models are the best out there.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

12thRonin — GMT

NoArmorSave wrote:
I would rate it the #1 wargame of all time

In your opinion but in reality, Chess and Go would like to disagree with you.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

NoArmorSave — GMT

12thRonin wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:
I would rate it the #1 wargame of all time

In your opinion but in reality, Chess and Go would like to disagree with you.

I actually play Chess as well, as well as several Chess variants. I own 6 different Chess boards, and a variety of chessmen sets.

Chess is a lot of fun, and strategically very deep. However, for fun\entertainment,
Warhammer 40,000 > Chess.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

PhantomViper — GMT

NoArmorSave wrote:
" in its slipping popularity"
Can you site your source on this? I say Warhammer 40,000 has never been more popular.

He is talking about GW as a whole, not 40K specifically, hence the "GW, in its slipping popularity" sentence .

NoArmorSave wrote:
"warhammer just isnt that good"
Warhammer Fantasy isnt good from a rules perspective. However, Warhammer 40,000 is. 5th edition is the best rules incarnation yet, though there are balance issues.

Agreed.

NoArmorSave wrote:
I would rate it the #1 wargame of all time, and the models are the best out there.

You could rate it like that, you would be incredibly wrong, but you could rate it like that...

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Alienfood — GMT

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Milisim — GMT

I've played 40k since RT days....

5th Edition is the weakest and most boring version of 40k to date.... 2 game types and most armies playing to the extremes.. IE: Spamming stuff to win...

5E has zero balance and zero strategy...

This of course is MY opinion. One founded in 20 odd years of 40k,

WHFB rules for 8E are not the best but they are still in fact better than 5E 40k.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

PhantomViper — GMT

Alienfood wrote:I can't understand this ranting about their prices..
I might be a fool, but I believe that those that rant about it is bigger fools.

From my memory...
10 years ago, a box of orks costed 185 sek ~ $ 26
A loaf of bread, 14 sek ~ $ 2
2 litres of milk 10 sek ~ $ 1.5

Today it costs:
Box of orks 220 sek ~ $ 31
Bread 25 sek ~ $ 3,5
Milk 18 sek ~ $ 2.5

Increases in percent?
Orks +~19%
Bread +~75%
Milk +~66%

So I firmly defend GWs increasing prices, as they are NOTHING compared to what the prices in general has changed, unincluding the monetary value.

Ork boys boxes used to bring 20 models, they now bring 10, so those 31 are more like 62 which makes it a 138% increase? Yes, those are alot lower than inflation...

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Ghiest1 — GMT

I am curoius where you got 3.50$ for a loaf of bread, it hovers around a dollar for the last 10 years. An the above poster is correct, the boxes have alot less minature then they used to.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Milisim — GMT

The better units to look at would be a SM Tectical squad and a Rhino.

Neither has gone up or down in plastic content...

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

NoArmorSave — GMT

Milisim wrote:I've played 40k since RT days....

5th Edition is the weakest and most boring version of 40k to date.... 2 game types and most armies playing to the extremes.. IE: Spamming stuff to win...

5E has zero balance and zero strategy...

This of course is MY opinion. One founded in 20 odd years of 40k,

WHFB rules for 8E are not the best but they are still in fact better than 5E 40k.

I was hoping this was the case, until I saw a battle report of a single Dark Elf Dreadlord holding up a unit of 30 Daemons all game.

At that point, I knew that the rules were every bit as horrible as I thought. They are just bad, bad, rules.

Most (but not all) players feel that 5th Edition 40K is the best. It has more balance than you think, you just have to play a lot of games of 5th to see\understand it. But yes, there are balance issues, and in some cases they are severe.
Also, I will say that each Codex has at least one competitive build that can do well in actual competitive games. That is impressive, considering the amount of armies and complexity in the game.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Fafnir — GMT

But it really says something about the terrible internal balance of the game when you consider that a lot of codecies only have those one or two competitive builds. For example, the Chaos Marines codex is so absurdly one-dimensional that it's insulting to anyone who actually plays the army.

Furthermore, just because they may have a competitive build doesn't mean that such builds thrive in such an environment. Many of those builds are just barely hanging on, rather than actually competing.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

NoArmorSave — GMT

Fafnir wrote:But it really says something about the terrible internal balance of the game when you consider that a lot of codecies only have those one or two competitive builds. For example, the Chaos Marines codex is so absurdly one-dimensional that it's insulting to anyone who actually plays the army.

Furthermore, just because they may have a competitive build doesn't mean that such builds thrive in such an environment. Many of those builds are just barely hanging on, rather than actually competing.

"For example, the Chaos Marines codex is so absurdly one-dimensional that it's insulting to anyone who actually plays the army."

Yes, I don't like the current Chaos Space Marines book either. But I can beat Grey Knights with it 50% of the time.

The good news; GW is going to fix it. Chaos is one of their most popular armies, and if I had to speculate, I would say the upcoming Chaos Legions Codex is going to be very nasty.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Deadnight — GMT

NoArmorSave wrote:The thing is, when you are talking about playing other game systems, they will eventually die.

40ks life cycle seems to be linked to when Kirby retires. very much focused these days on short term profit over long term sustainability. are they "dying". No. certainly not. long term decline? there is more of an argument to be made for that.

NoArmorSave wrote:

In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K

just like i can use my Squats? And Chaos Dwarves? D'oh! A mate of mine had 3 whole 40k armies either invalidated or gimped by GWs policies of redefining the rules and updating editions. aye, you can use things from 10 years ago, but there is no guarantee that they will be either (a) legal, or (b) good/competitive.

NoArmorSave wrote:
If I was playing other games, they would likely be sitting on the shelf, because I probably wouldn't be able to find anyone to play with. Essentially, they become board games, instead
of a living miniature game.

my 1500pts of tau have been sitting in a box since the Warmachine Mk2 fieldtiest. Can i find players? Sure, but its getting harder. the scene in ireland is very much one with warmachine on the upswing and only the hardcore sticking with 40k, and here in edinburgh scotland where i live now, its very much a case of 50/50 GW/warmachine + other games. heck, one of the LGSs i go to doesnt even bother with GW stuff any more- everyone either wants warmachine or (mainly) Flames of War. heck regarding the GW stuff played in edinburgh, ive seen more blood bowl and necromunda than 40k games.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Dead Games: Warzone, Vor, Void, Crucible, Chronopia (my personal favorite game next to 40K. I still have 6 armies for it), Mage Knight, Silent Death,
Plastic Battletech, Confrontation, AT-43, Star Wars Miniatures, D&D Miniatures, Dreamblade, Celtos, Leviathan. I am sure there are a lot more I have left out.

you can add starship troopers and battlefield evolution to the list too. again, those two were great games, but horribly horribly mishandled. i still maintain chamber's ST was one of the best rules sets written for wargaming. such a shame it died. battletech though is still alive and kicking.

NoArmorSave wrote:
Now most of the above are great games, especially Chronopia, but trying to find other players is like finding a needle in a haystack. This list doesn't even touch on
all of the dead GW specialist games.

they're dead. thats why. they never got the support they needed, never had the modes or the interest. things have changed. i talk to gamers in general here in scotland or ireland (and yes, ive done the rounds at gaming cons) about current "other" games, eg Malifaux (which ive no interest in playing myself. tried it, i dont like it btw), Infinity, MERCS, warmahordes, FOW etc and there is *HUGE* interest in these games.

NoArmorSave wrote:
Current games that I expect to be dead within the next 5-10 years: Infinity, Anima Tactics, Flames of War, all of the Spartan Games, Dark Age, Monsterpocalypse,
Heroclix, Malifaux, and possibly Warmachine\Hordes. Warmachine\Hordes may be the only game that will survive, and that is not certain IMO.

seems like a copy/paste here of "games that GW doesnt make". pardon me if i apply a bit of salt mate. in my experience in both ireland AND the UK, warmachine has all but EXPLODED in the last 2 years. to the extent that 50% of table space is geared towards it in any of the gaming clubs ive gone too in the last few years (and i'll qualifiy. im not talking about GWs. im talking about gaming clubs and societies). back home warmachine had taken off in a huge way. Like ive said, ive seen a huge amount of interest expressed in the various skirmish games (bar warmahordes, malifaux in particular rates highly, though infinity ranks a close second here)

NoArmorSave wrote:
Can you site your source on this? I say Warhammer 40,000 has never been more popular.

Warhammer Fantasy isnt good from a rules perspective. However, Warhammer 40,000 is. 5th edition is the best rules incarnation yet, though there are balance issues.
I would rate it the #1 wargame of all time, and the models are the best out there.

(1) my experience both in Ireland and the UK (specifically edinburgh, scotland) . warhammer 40k has suffered a lot lately, especially in the last 2 years. the international embargo, finecast, uneccessary price increases, the direction of codices (Draigo, "newcrons" etc). its annoyed a lot of people. 40k simpy isnt what it used to be. please also bear in mind what ive seen its not "in my opinion". ive seen more and more people literally driven away from 40k. Is it dying though? Hmm, no. I wouldnt say so. Not yet. But the state of play of gaming these days is radically different. 3-4 years ago, if i asked for "a game", id have all hands up offereing 40k. My "alternative" was Fantasy. If i mentioned "Warmachine" i would get funny looks. Aye, people had heard of it, but no one really played it. It was just GW games. Anything else? Nah, not a hope! Nowadays, if i ask for a game, its 50/50 between 40k and Warmahordes. And some guy in the back yelling "fantasy!". And if i mention Infinity, Malifaux, MERCS or other skirmish games, the lads might not play them, but they've heard of them and are interested. So, if i were the kind of guy who'd turn up with a few skirmish forces and run a few demos, id be booked in for the night.

Number one wargame of all time? Hmm, i dunno. Plenty historical games have huge followings too. bear in mind, GW is a niche within a niche, nothing more.

Model wise? Sure, GWs models are ace. well, some of them are. personally, i find a lot of their latest WFB monsters to be really "cartoony". beyonf that, most marines seem to stand legs splayed, with an angry roar on their face waving a sword. I dont like them.
I do think though that the guys who produce the Infinity miniatures and Privateer Press make amazingly good models. Infinity has, as far as im concerned the best sci-fi line up of models ive seen in a long, long time. PP? Yeah, their jacks and Infantry take a bit of getting used to (hunched over jacks, super shoulder padded infantry). But once you get out of the mntality of "GW is the hobby, and GW models are the defining models", you can start to appreciate them for their own merits. Nowadays, i dont even blink at the shoulder pads of iron fang pikemen. i think they look cool.

furthermore, if you factor in the fact that GWs sales remain fairly static year on year, and yet their prices increase by 10-20% each year, it seems volume of sales is dropping off constantly, year on year. its a drip-fed demise.hardly a symptom of a game thats "never been more popular", eh?

NoArmorSave wrote:
"warhammer just isnt that good"
Warhammer Fantasy isnt good from a rules perspective. However, Warhammer 40,000 is. 5th edition is the best rules incarnation yet, though there are balance issues.

5th is is a tweak, of a tweak of a rehash. How can it be the best incarbnation yet when every 40k forum has 100 threads about wished for changes, improvements or "what would you do's"? What you need to realise is GW is not interested in "improving" their game as much as "changing" it. Also, GW is very much interested in selling as much of the "new shiny!" as they can. que in point: dirt cheap valkyries, purifiers that are too good for their points etc. bear in mind 40k has never been a "good" game. 3rd ed was a broken game and sufferered hugely as a reuslt. 4th fixed some problems but created many of its own. fifth? same story. the fact that mech dominates is a bad thing. the fact that wound allocation, and LOS shenanigans exist is a bad thing. codex creep is rife. Close combat is too much.too many things are too "gamey". certain 5th ed codices are leagues superior to others. put up a thread on dakka/warseer and within 45minutes you;ll have all the evidence you need that the rules set is far from "the best yet" and is, in fact, deeply, deeply flawed.

compared to warmachine mark 2. mark 1 was a good, if severely flawed game. In designing mark2, they opened it up to thr *entire* community. free codices and rulesbooks. for 3 months. get as many games in as you can. send in your feedback. you had frequent revisions and rewrites. thanks to the player input, the balance is superb. many of the "borken" things of mk1 are gone, or severely reduced. many of the poor things are imnproved dramatically. overall, i am not constained to taking "that" list. i dont neeed khador to be competitive, i just need to be a damned good player., i dont "need" certain things to have a good khador list. it can all be made to work (bar zherkova ) Same with Hordes. Seriously, theyre not perfect. but theyre the most finely balanced wargames ive ever had the previlige of playing. aye, when they tried for the headshot at "balance", they missed the head, but tore out its throat instead.

NoArmorSave wrote:
Most (but not all) players feel that 5th Edition 40K is the best. It has more balance than you think, you just have to play a lot of games of 5th to see\understand it. But yes, there are balance issues, and in some cases they are severe.
Also, I will say that each Codex has at least one competitive build that can do well in actual competitive games. That is impressive, considering the amount of armies and complexity in the game.

Im glad you regard my tau;s complete lack of any resemblance of compettivie ability to be "some cases".
being contrained to "at least one competitive build" is the death of a codex, as far as im concerned. all builds should be viable. seriously, before you talk about game balancein the same sentence as 40k, please go and get some perspective: go play warmachine. go play other games! 1 build is not "impressive". Neither is the "complexity. Im sorry, but 40k is not complex. you spam the uber unit, ignore the chaff, and maximise your dice rolls. followed by profit. warmachine has 11 factions* (15 if you count the minion/merc factions as true factions), with over a hundred warnouns. the sheer amount of combos, and synnergies involved is staggering. and yet despite this, no warnoun/faction has ever dominated the game. everything has a counter.

*Warmachine:Cygnar, Khador, Protectorate, Cryx, Retribution, mercenaries (Searforge, highborn, talion, 4star)
Horde: Circle, Skorne, Trollbloods, Everblight, minions (Blindwater. thornfall)

in 40k, there are *huge* balance issues, and *glaring* inconsistencies, and issues.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

NoArmorSave — GMT

PhantomViper wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:
In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K.

Not if you wanted to play them in any of their stores you can't.

Also, funnily enough, I can still use my Cygnar and Fallschirmjager armies from 10 years ago in the current editions of their respective games... Go figure...

"Not if you wanted to play them in any of their stores you can't. "

No, this is incorrect. People do it all the time. GW advertises the fact that you can use all of your older models, and has encouraged it multiple times.

The only exception would be if you are in an official WYSIWYG enforced tournament, and even then, if the old models had the appropriate wargear\options, you could still use them.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

NoArmorSave — GMT

Deadnight wrote:
NoArmorSave wrote:The thing is, when you are talking about playing other game systems, they will eventually die.

40ks life cycle seems to be linked to when Kirby retires. very much focused these days on short term profit over long term sustainability. are they "dying". No. certainly not. long term decline? there is more of an argument to be made for that.

NoArmorSave wrote:

In the end, GW core products have more longevity. I can still use my Chaos Space Marines from 10 years ago in the current edition of 40K

just like i can use my Squats? And Chaos Dwarves? D'oh! A mate of mine had 3 whole 40k armies either invalidated or gimped by GWs policies of redefining the rules and updating editions. aye, you can use things from 10 years ago, but there is no guarantee that they will be either (a) legal, or (b) good/competitive.

NoArmorSave wrote:
If I was playing other games, they would likely be sitting on the shelf, because I probably wouldn't be able to find anyone to play with. Essentially, they become board games, instead
of a living miniature game.

my 1500pts of tau have been sitting in a box since the Warmachine Mk2 fieldtiest. Can i find players? Sure, but its getting harder. the scene in ireland is very much one with warmachine on the upswing and only the hardcore sticking with 40k, and here in edinburgh scotland where i live now, its very much a case of 50/50 GW/warmachine + other games. heck, one of the LGSs i go to doesnt even bother with GW stuff any more- everyone either wants warmachine or (mainly) Flames of War. heck regarding the GW stuff played in edinburgh, ive seen more blood bowl and necromunda than 40k games.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Dead Games: Warzone, Vor, Void, Crucible, Chronopia (my personal favorite game next to 40K. I still have 6 armies for it), Mage Knight, Silent Death,
Plastic Battletech, Confrontation, AT-43, Star Wars Miniatures, D&D Miniatures, Dreamblade, Celtos, Leviathan. I am sure there are a lot more I have left out.

you can add starship troopers and battlefield evolution to the list too. again, those two were great games, but horribly horribly mishandled. i still maintain chamber's ST was one of the best rules sets written for wargaming. such a shame it died. battletech though is still alive and kicking.

NoArmorSave wrote:
Now most of the above are great games, especially Chronopia, but trying to find other players is like finding a needle in a haystack. This list doesn't even touch on
all of the dead GW specialist games.

they're dead. thats why. they never got the support they needed, never had the modes or the interest. things have changed. i talk to gamers in general here in scotland or ireland (and yes, ive done the rounds at gaming cons) about current "other" games, eg Malifaux (which ive no interest in playing myself. tried it, i dont like it btw), Infinity, MERCS, warmahordes, FOW etc and there is *HUGE* interest in these games.

NoArmorSave wrote:
Current games that I expect to be dead within the next 5-10 years: Infinity, Anima Tactics, Flames of War, all of the Spartan Games, Dark Age, Monsterpocalypse,
Heroclix, Malifaux, and possibly Warmachine\Hordes. Warmachine\Hordes may be the only game that will survive, and that is not certain IMO.

seems like a copy/paste here of "games that GW doesnt make". pardon me if i apply a bit of salt mate. in my experience in both ireland AND the UK, warmachine has all but EXPLODED in the last 2 years. to the extent that 50% of table space is geared towards it in any of the gaming clubs ive gone too in the last few years (and i'll qualifiy. im not talking about GWs. im talking about gaming clubs and societies). back home warmachine had taken off in a huge way. Like ive said, ive seen a huge amount of interest expressed in the various skirmish games (bar warmahordes, malifaux in particular rates highly, though infinity ranks a close second here)

NoArmorSave wrote:
Can you site your source on this? I say Warhammer 40,000 has never been more popular.

Warhammer Fantasy isnt good from a rules perspective. However, Warhammer 40,000 is. 5th edition is the best rules incarnation yet, though there are balance issues.
I would rate it the #1 wargame of all time, and the models are the best out there.

(1) my experience both in Ireland and the UK (specifically edinburgh, scotland) . warhammer 40k has suffered a lot lately, especially in the last 2 years. the international embargo, finecast, uneccessary price increases, the direction of codices (Draigo, "newcrons" etc). its annoyed a lot of people. 40k simpy isnt what it used to be. please also bear in mind what ive seen its not "in my opinion". ive seen more and more people literally driven away from 40k. Is it dying though? Hmm, no. I wouldnt say so. Not yet. But the state of play of gaming these days is radically different. 3-4 years ago, if i asked for "a game", id have all hands up offereing 40k. My "alternative" was Fantasy. If i mentioned "Warmachine" i would get funny looks. Aye, people had heard of it, but no one really played it. It was just GW games. Anything else? Nah, not a hope! Nowadays, if i ask for a game, its 50/50 between 40k and Warmahordes. And some guy in the back yelling "fantasy!". And if i mention Infinity, Malifaux, MERCS or other skirmish games, the lads might not play them, but they've heard of them and are interested. So, if i were the kind of guy who'd turn up with a few skirmish forces and run a few demos, id be booked in for the night.

Number one wargame of all time? Hmm, i dunno. Plenty historical games have huge followings too. bear in mind, GW is a niche within a niche, nothing more.

Model wise? Sure, GWs models are ace. well, some of them are. personally, i find a lot of their latest WFB monsters to be really "cartoony". beyonf that, most marines seem to stand legs splayed, with an angry roar on their face waving a sword. I dont like them.
I do think though that the guys who produce the Infinity miniatures and Privateer Press make amazingly good models. Infinity has, as far as im concerned the best sci-fi line up of models ive seen in a long, long time. PP? Yeah, their jacks and Infantry take a bit of getting used to (hunched over jacks, super shoulder padded infantry). But once you get out of the mntality of "GW is the hobby, and GW models are the defining models", you can start to appreciate them for their own merits. Nowadays, i dont even blink at the shoulder pads of iron fang pikemen. i think they look cool.

furthermore, if you factor in the fact that GWs sales remain fairly static year on year, and yet their prices increase by 10-20% each year, it seems volume of sales is dropping off constantly, year on year. its a drip-fed demise.hardly a symptom of a game thats "never been more popular", eh?

NoArmorSave wrote:
"warhammer just isnt that good"
Warhammer Fantasy isnt good from a rules perspective. However, Warhammer 40,000 is. 5th edition is the best rules incarnation yet, though there are balance issues.

5th is is a tweak, of a tweak of a rehash. How can it be the best incarbnation yet when every 40k forum has 100 threads about wished for changes, improvements or "what would you do's"? What you need to realise is GW is not interested in "improving" their game as much as "changing" it. Also, GW is very much interested in selling as much of the "new shiny!" as they can. que in point: dirt cheap valkyries, purifiers that are too good for their points etc. bear in mind 40k has never been a "good" game. 3rd ed was a broken game and sufferered hugely as a reuslt. 4th fixed some problems but created many of its own. fifth? same story. the fact that mech dominates is a bad thing. the fact that wound allocation, and LOS shenanigans exist is a bad thing. codex creep is rife. Close combat is too much.too many things are too "gamey". certain 5th ed codices are leagues superior to others. put up a thread on dakka/warseer and within 45minutes you;ll have all the evidence you need that the rules set is far from "the best yet" and is, in fact, deeply, deeply flawed.

compared to warmachine mark 2. mark 1 was a good, if severely flawed game. In designing mark2, they opened it up to thr *entire* community. free codices and rulesbooks. for 3 months. get as many games in as you can. send in your feedback. you had frequent revisions and rewrites. thanks to the player input, the balance is superb. many of the "borken" things of mk1 are gone, or severely reduced. many of the poor things are imnproved dramatically. overall, i am not constained to taking "that" list. i dont neeed khador to be competitive, i just need to be a damned good player., i dont "need" certain things to have a good khador list. it can all be made to work (bar zherkova ) Same with Hordes. Seriously, theyre not perfect. but theyre the most finely balanced wargames ive ever had the previlige of playing. aye, when they tried for the headshot at "balance", they missed the head, but tore out its throat instead.

NoArmorSave wrote:
Most (but not all) players feel that 5th Edition 40K is the best. It has more balance than you think, you just have to play a lot of games of 5th to see\understand it. But yes, there are balance issues, and in some cases they are severe.
Also, I will say that each Codex has at least one competitive build that can do well in actual competitive games. That is impressive, considering the amount of armies and complexity in the game.

Im glad you regard my tau;s complete lack of any resemblance of compettivie ability to be "some cases".
being contrained to "at least one competitive build" is the death of a codex, as far as im concerned. all builds should be viable. seriously, before you talk about game balancein the same sentence as 40k, please go and get some perspective: go play warmachine. go play other games! 1 build is not "impressive". Neither is the "complexity. Im sorry, but 40k is not complex. you spam the uber unit, ignore the chaff, and maximise your dice rolls. followed by profit. warmachine has 11 factions* (15 if you count the minion/merc factions as true factions), with over a hundred warnouns. the sheer amount of combos, and synnergies involved is staggering. and yet despite this, no warnoun/faction has ever dominated the game. everything has a counter.

*Warmachine:Cygnar, Khador, Protectorate, Cryx, Retribution, mercenaries (Searforge, highborn, talion, 4star)
Horde: Circle, Skorne, Trollbloods, Everblight, minions (Blindwater. thornfall)

in 40k, there are *huge* balance issues, and *glaring* inconsistencies, and issues.

"just like i can use my Squats? And Chaos Dwarves? D'oh! A mate of mine had 3 whole 40k armies either invalidated or gimped by GWs policies of redefining the rules and updating editions. aye, you can use things from 10 years ago, but there is no guarantee that they will be either (a) legal, or (b) good/competitive. "

Squats = That was your own fault for picking them in the first place. You could still use them for counts as games if you want, I would probably use Codex: Space Marines for them.

Chaos Dwarves = Just got rereleased in the new Warhammer Forge Tamurkhan Book. The new model range to go along with it are some of the very best in fantasy IMO, I just absolutely love them, and I don't even play fantasy.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/CHAOS_DWARFS The old models are 100% compatible with the new book. Even the old bull centaurs. In fact, the bull centaurs don't even have new models yet, the old ones (or a conversion) are the only options. Needless to say, they are
going for big bucks on Ebay.

You can always use your models for counts as. Matter of fact, I game at one of GW's biggest independant stockist and they encourage the use of counts as in all of their official tournaments they hold. The only exception to this is Ard Boyz, as GW dictactes that this tournament has to have 100% WYSIWYG enforced.

"the scene in ireland is very much one with warmachine on the upswing and only the hardcore sticking with 40k"
I have played a couple of games of Warmachine, and I really didn't care for it. I don't think the rules are good, and didn't find the game particularly good. It is not even in the same league as 40K IMO.

"you can add starship troopers and battlefield evolution to the list too. again, those two were great games, but horribly horribly mishandled. i still maintain chamber's ST was one of the best rules sets written for wargaming. such a shame it died. battletech though is still alive and kicking. "

Yep, I forgot about this. My local store had a bunch of Starship Trooper stuff on clearance 1-2 years ago. I have periodically been interested in Battletech, but the system is massive, it is hard to know where to start. There are so many sourcebooks, and a lot of the models are no longer being produced. But yes, there are still people playing it.

"(1) my experience both in Ireland and the UK (specifically edinburgh, scotland) . warhammer 40k has suffered a lot lately, especially in the last 2 years. the international embargo, finecast, uneccessary price increases, the direction of codices (Draigo, "newcrons" etc). its annoyed a lot of people. 40k simpy isnt what it used to be. "

I would say this situation isn't echoed in the U.S. 40K is still the largest and most popular wargame by a large margin. On 2-3 nights of the week around here, I can easily get a game of 40K going on.
international embargo = agreed, it is bull s hit
finecast = crapcast
Draigo = Yeah, the GK are unbalanced and suffer from terrible cheese. I have never seen anything like it in my 15 years of wargaming. GW and Matt (the shi t head) Ward did a lot of damage to the game with that book. That is a discussion beyond the scope of this thread.
Newcrons = I actually like the new Necron Codex, and have found it to be relatively balanced.

"5th is is a tweak, of a tweak of a rehash. How can it be the best incarbnation yet when every 40k forum has 100 threads about wished for changes, improvements or "what would you do's"?"

I have been playing since 3rd, I would say 5th is the best. It is loads of fun, even though it is not balanced. There will always be 100's of pages of threads of changes and improvements people want. It is just the nature of the beast. The only game that is perfectly
balanced is Chess (and maybe Go), but even then, it is not. White has a slight advantage because it goes first. It is virtually impossible for GW to balance 40K, and it will never happen.

"Im glad you regard my tau;s complete lack of any resemblance of compettivie ability to be "some cases".

In the last tournament I was in, a Tau player wiped out a Draigo Wing player. I also got beat up by a Tau Player using my Daemons at the 1,000 point level. I don't loose often, and was very impressed with the army as a whole.
Once the new book comes in, my sense is they will have several good builds.

" Im sorry, but 40k is not complex. you spam the uber unit, ignore the chaff, and maximise your dice rolls."
There is much more to it than that in high level play. You not only have to know your codex inside and out, but if you want to be really good, you have to know all of the other armies codexes. It is very chess like, in that it is critical that the appropriate threat
and counter is adopted. Timing and deployment are also key factors. Sure you can just throw all of your shi t out there, and it will work sometimes. However, you are not going to consistently beat a good player by doing that.

"in 40k, there are *huge* balance issues, and *glaring* inconsistencies, and issues. "

Yes there are. But it sure is a lot of fun.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

studderingdave — GMT

this dead horse again?

GW profits because most people who play their games are too far into the game to justify leaving it. they make nice kits, but they are overpriced and their rules blow. as stated by their own people, they are a mini company first and their games were never meant for competition. 10 years ago they had the monopoly, now they have a decent number of competitors. those brave enough to try another game system usually like what they see, and leave GW behind, others stay wired into the matrix.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

infinite_array — GMT

studderingdave wrote:
GW profits because most people who play their games are too far into the game to justify leaving it. they make nice kits, but they are overpriced and their rules blow. as stated by their own people, they are a mini company first and their games were never meant for competition. 10 years ago they had the monopoly, now they have a decent number of competitors. those brave enough to try another game system usually like what they see, and leave GW behind, others stay wired into the matrix.

I was thinking about contributing, but I think studderingdave summed up what I was going to say.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

studderingdave — GMT

infinite_array wrote:I was thinking about contributing, but I think studderingdave summed up what I was going to say.

thanks. i like short answers that get to the point. i am still opening myself up to a flame war or trolling, but i feel that getting the point across is important. most people who complain about GW still support them, its the way its gonna be. people fear change.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

infinite_array — GMT

I agree. I can't stand people who say, "GW is the worst! They charge soooo much and they have bad rules and th- Ooooh, look at the new shinies! GW rocks!"

I looked at other wargames. I found others that I thought to be better than GW games. I sold off my GW stuff (except for the paints, and even those are slowly being phased out for P3 and Vallejo). I've also essentially stopped complaining, except for the odd comment here and there.

I'm a wargamer, not a Warhammer-er.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Adam LongWalker — GMT

@ Deadnight.

Thank you for your long posting on what you have seen in your region and your perspective on what is going on with gaming in general.

I have seen similar actions in my gaming region. People (in my area) are not happy with GW's Games and the yearly costs to play that game and they are leaving the game and/or leaving the hobby in general. Skirmish games are in. Board Games are in and continue to grow.

Again thank you for your input.

Adam

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

NoArmorSave — GMT

studderingdave wrote:this dead horse again?

GW profits because most people who play their games are too far into the game to justify leaving it. they make nice kits, but they are overpriced and their rules blow. as stated by their own people, they are a mini company first and their games were never meant for competition. 10 years ago they had the monopoly, now they have a decent number of competitors. those brave enough to try another game system usually like what they see, and leave GW behind, others stay wired into the matrix.

I don't want to leave the Matrix dude. I love it here.

If you want to know what the very best rule set ever published for a miniature wargame is, you need to look no further than here:

It has the most elegant mechanics and the best game balance of any system I have ever played. It is a true joy to play, but alas, is mostly dead. There are still some die hard fans out there though.

If I want to play a wargame where there are actual other players, and where there always most likely will be other players, I will go play a game of 40K. And contrary to what a lot of the naysayers would have you believe, it is a hell of a lot of fun.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

studderingdave — GMT

I played 40k for 15+ years, stretching from 2nd edition to 5th edition. lots of good memories, i have also dabbled in chronopia years ago, but nothing recently. I have no doubt you enjoy 40k, but that really wasn't the point of my post. i was just making the general observation that die hard GW players tend to stay with GW out of a loyalty to their armies and disinterest in abandoning all the work they put into them, and at least in my meta those who were not open to looking at other games left our scene.

NoArmorSave wrote:If you want to know what the very best rule set ever published for a miniature war game is, you need to look no further than here:.

like anything else on the internet, this is open for debate. while your entitled to your opinion, your not being objective. but then again, that is the point of forums, to back opinions.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

NoArmorSave — GMT

studderingdave wrote:I played 40k for 15+ years, stretching from 2nd edition to 5th edition. lots of good memories, i have also dabbled in chronopia years ago, but nothing recently. I have no doubt you enjoy 40k, but that really wasn't the point of my post. i was just making the general observation that die hard GW players tend to stay with GW out of a loyalty to their armies and disinterest in abandoning all the work they put into them, and at least in my meta those who were not open to looking at other games left our scene.

NoArmorSave wrote:If you want to know what the very best rule set ever published for a miniature war game is, you need to look no further than here:.

like anything else on the internet, this is open for debate. while your entitled to your opinion, your not being objective. but then again, that is the point of forums, to back opinions.

The following review from boardgamegeek pretty much sums up why I believe the game is the best miniature wargame ever published. The only other thing I would add is, there is an element of reacting on the opponents turn in Chronopia.
Chronopia uses a superior alternating unit activation system. What this means is that I move a unit (and each figure in that unit has a certain # of individual actions) and than the opponent moves a unit, and this keeps going back and fourth until
the turn is over. Whereas in 40K I move my whole army, and then you move your whole army; whoever goes first can have a huge advantage. Chronopia also allows you to spend an action to place a model on wait, which allows you to react during the opponents activation.
If a model is on wait, it can shoot outside of your turn when an enemy moves in range, or can even charge into close combat out of turn if an enemy moves into it's threat range.

Chronopia is a true gem that stands out as the ultimate fantasy table top wargame.

When I played Chronopia for the first time, it was like learning to play D&D for the first time all over again. The system is simply amazing. A typical game involves a conflict of two opposing forces in a dark-fantasy setting. The races are not your generic; Human - Elf - Dwarf - Orc. The Elves are heavily armored, and their Wizards get power from a mystical Lotus plant. The Dwarves worship their ancestors as huge beast totems they take into battle, and the Orc's are civilized and elegant in an Arabic theme. The story and atmosphere of the game is outstanding.

Now you might be thinking, "a miniatures game, I don't play miniatures games" - well my friend, I would beg you to consider trying Chronopia.

Chronopia is inexpensive to get into. A typical army has about 20 figures per side. You can buy a nice army for about $75.00. The figures are unique and extremely cool. The rulebook is amazing at over 350 pages. It is the only book you need, as it has all of the army lists and all of the options within its pages.

Now to the meet of the game; The Rules. This is the part about Chronopia that makes it always a delight to play. I tell you, after you play Chronopia other games just won’t give you the "same fix".

The Chronopia engine uses an alternate turn activation system. This really boils down to 1 player moving 1 unit in his army, and than his opponent moves 1 unit in his army. This continues back and fourth until the turn is over.

This creates such of a balance and elegance in the game, that it is a delight to play. Initiative does not hold major importance in the game. You can loose initiative every turn, and still easily win.

Each figure within a unit has a certain amount of actions. A typical figure has two actions, although some powerful or specialized figures get more than two. A figure expends an action to move, attack, shoot, use a special ability, cast a spell, etc. One the figure has expended all of it's actions, the next figure in the unit expends it's actions. This continues until each figure in the unit has gone, at which point your opponent than activates one of his units and continues the process.

There are many "special" moves a figure can do (i.e. aim, concentrate, run, hide, etc) but they are beyond the scope of this article.

The combat system is simply the best I have ever seen anywhere. Chronopia is the closest "re-creation" I have ever seen to true combat in a real battle situation. At least as "real" as a game with little figures can get. ;-)

Chronopia uses a twenty-sided die (D20) for everything; including combat. A figure typically has a close combat and ranged combat rating. A figure expends an action and needs to roll its combat rating OR LESS on a twenty-sided die to hit. If it is successful the attack causes a certain amount of damage. The figure taking the damage must subtract it from it's armor rating. The figure taking the damage must then roll a twenty-sided die and reach the adjusted number OR LESS to prevent the damage. IF the roll fails, the figure takes a wound. Most figures only have a single wound, so combat can be fast and very, very bloody.

It is worth mentioning that a roll of "1" on an attack roll, is an automatic wound with no chance for an armor roll. This makes it possible for the smallest goblin to fell a noble Knight or put a wound on a raging demon.

Heroes and powerful monsters are strong in Chronopia, but woe to them that are surrounded by a standard unit of grunts. The hero or monster is likely to be over-run and taken down in a shower of blood. Chronopia has several modifiers for combat, and let's just say there is strength in numbers.

Magic in Chronopia can be powerful. But it is not guaranteed. A spellcaster has a power rating, and like everything in the game he has two roll using his power rating as a baseline (modified by the power of the spell). A failure on the power roll indicates that spell has failed.

I could really keep going on and on about this wonderful game. Just to set the record straight, I am in no way affiliated or in any contact with the manufacturer. I am just a die hard gamer that is truly "lucky" to have found Chronopia in all of it's elegance, grace, and beauty. I hope that you may be able to experience this wonderful game as well.

May you serve the Oneking Well!!

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

studderingdave — GMT

its a good review, but unnecessary. i already said i have played the game.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Deadnight — GMT

NoArmorSave wrote:
Squats = That was your own fault for picking them in the first place. You could still use them for counts as games if you want, I would probably use Codex: Space Marines for them.

Chaos Dwarves = Just got rereleased in the new Warhammer Forge Tamurkhan Book. The new model range to go along with it are some of the very best in fantasy IMO, I just absolutely love them, and I don't even play fantasy.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/CHAOS_DWARFS The old models are 100% compatible with the new book. Even the old bull centaurs. In fact, the bull centaurs don't even have new models yet, the old ones (or a conversion) are the only options. Needless to say, they are
going for big bucks on Ebay.

You can always use your models for counts as. Matter of fact, I game at one of GW's biggest independant stockist and they encourage the use of counts as in all of their official tournaments they hold. The only exception to this is Ard Boyz, as GW dictactes that this tournament has to have 100% WYSIWYG enforced.

"that was my own fault for picking them"? Wow, that is a terrible attitude to have. Its not anyone's "fault" by any stretch of the imagination. regardless, they're not a legal army.

"you can still use them as counts as"? Surely thats a cop out. if thats the argument that my unuseable 40k minis are indeed useable, then the same can be said for unuseable minis from other systems. directly refuting your statement. fact remains, squats are illegal. the codex was dumped. i cannot play a "squats" army. Im playing marines with dodgy models. big difference. same with CD. until they're no longer the purview of Foregeworld, and have an actual codex, then i feel that i cant properly field them in a game or tournament.

NoArmorSave wrote:
the scene in ireland is very much one with warmachine on the upswing and only the hardcore sticking with 40k"
I have played a couple of games of Warmachine, and I really didn't care for it. I don't think the rules are good, and didn't find the game particularly good. It is not even in the same league as 40K IMO.

maybe you just got a few bad demos? I dunno. I *love* warmachine. its the game i always dreamt 40k could be. Good models, extremely tight and well written rules set. extremely fine balance.

NoArmorSave wrote:
Yep, I forgot about this. My local store had a bunch of Starship Trooper stuff on clearance 1-2 years ago. I have periodically been interested in Battletech, but the system is massive, it is hard to know where to start. There are so many sourcebooks, and a lot of the models are no longer being produced. But yes, there are still people playing it.

if there are people playing it, then please take it off youe "dead game" list.

NoArmorSave wrote:
I would say this situation isn't echoed in the U.S. 40K is still the largest and most popular wargame by a large margin. On 2-3 nights of the week around here, I can easily get a game of 40K going on.
international embargo = agreed, it is bull s hit
finecast = crapcast
Draigo = Yeah, the GK are unbalanced and suffer from terrible cheese. I have never seen anything like it in my 15 years of wargaming. GW and Matt (the shi t head) Ward did a lot of damage to the game with that book. That is a discussion beyond the scope of this thread.
Newcrons = I actually like the new Necron Codex, and have found it to be relatively balanced

aye, im not saying 40k is dead or gone. I can easily get a game of 40k in, if i wanted that. most gamers have a GW army. But if i wanted, i can also get in 3-4 games of warmahordes if i wanted. (edinburgh wargaming scene - worlds at war on tuesday, ELG on wednesday, battleground on friday/saturday if you wanted. not soley warmachine btw. some people play 40k. some play warmahordes. some play flames of war) that said, my point was that more and more people are switching over, especially to skirmish games. Please read my reviously written oint regarding the difference ive seen in the gaming scene between now and 4 years ago. Warmachine Mk2 has exploded. Nowadays i can get my game of 40k in, and ALSO get in other games too. that simply was not the case a while back. my local meta isnt unique, anecdotal evidence, i know but ive come across quite a few posts from US gamers saying, and seeing exactly the same thing as i have.

Regarding the newcros... I wanted to like them. I really did. the idea of giving them character and personality really gelled with me. I thought it could have been excellent. and just the thing to save my malaise regarding 40k. and then i read the codex. What i got wasnt an army lost in time. I wanted to see ancient tragedy - a race that had given up their bodies and souls to continue their wars into forever. I wanted to see their woe, and their loss. I wanted to see a race of long dead beings struggling in a galaxy that is beyond them, that has changed beyond all recognition, and they themselves feeling their own loss. In the end though, thats not what i got. I didnt get tragedy. i got bad comedy. I got necrons sending emails to inquisitors. I got egocentric lords that like the sounds of their own voices more than anything else. I got characters that are not so much tragic as quaint, odd academics, some with a flair for the dramatic. the only bit of fluff that i liked was the flayed ones: vampiric robots, glutting themselves on blood, seeking what they can never have themselves and even the sustainance they seek is a lie. they're tragic. the rest? for me, it failed. And it was the final nail in the coffin for me.

NoArmorSave wrote:
I have been playing since 3rd, I would say 5th is the best. It is loads of fun, even though it is not balanced. There will always be 100's of pages of threads of changes and improvements people want. It is just the nature of the beast. The only game that is perfectly
balanced is Chess (and maybe Go), but even then, it is not. White has a slight advantage because it goes first. It is virtually impossible for GW to balance 40K, and it will never happen.

"best" and "fun" are relative. I dont see 5th as "better" to 3rd, or 4th. Its "different". GW dont improve their games. they change them by moving the goalposts around. Third was dominated by rhino rush, shoot the rhino-rush and screening. 4th was dominated my 6man las/plas and skimmer spam. dont think i ever saw a rhino being fielded. 5th is mechhammer.

regarding the hundreds of pages of suggested improvements, that is proof, if anything that the game is deeply flawed and is simply not giving people what they wanted. heres the thing. perspective. Check out warmachine/hordes forums. Not here, on dakka theyre almost an afterthought. Check out PPs forums. have a look for those 100s of pages of threads of changes and improvements that people wanted. you wont find them. Not even dozens of them. the "focus is better than fury" debate pops up, as well as "can we improve jack marshals". Beyond that though, there is no desire for new rules, a new edition or anything of the sort. maybe down the line, a re-released card deck with some points tweaks for some solos and that. but really, thats it. One of the reasons i prefer Warmachine is the community: i find 40k boards to be loaded with negative energy and whining (some justified btw) there is just a lot less BS to wade through at times.

Perfect balance is indeed impossible. But look at the job PP did. 11(15) factions. hundreds of warnouns. thousands of combos. heck, if they can do it, so can GW. they choose not to, because its not in their interest to make a better game. If a game is perfect, you cant release a new edition, can you?

NoArmorSave wrote:
In the last tournament I was in, a Tau player wiped out a Draigo Wing player. I also got beat up by a Tau Player using my Daemons at the 1,000 point level. I don't loose often, and was very impressed with the army as a whole.
Once the new book comes in, my sense is they will have several good builds.

absolutely. but for all of 5th, my tau were on the shelf. ive seen tau win in 5th. ive won with them. but by god it was a tough slog. tau in 4th were a beast on a completely different playing field, especially at 1000pts. the problem with tau really is (1) old codex and (2) they dont scale well. all the tough stuff is in the first 1000pts. going beyiond that, youre spending points on sub-optimal choices.

NoArmorSave wrote:
There is much more to it than that in high level play. You not only have to know your codex inside and out, but if you want to be really good, you have to know all of the other armies codexes. It is very chess like, in that it is critical that the appropriate threat
and counter is adopted. Timing and deployment are also key factors. Sure you can just throw all of your shi t out there, and it will work sometimes. However, you are not going to consistently beat a good player by doing that.

downloading the latest netlist from the net certainly helps too! i find "strategy" and "tactics" in 40k revolve around list building, rather than on the 6 by 4. there are a handful of good builds per codex. razorfang spam. vendetta spam. grey knight spam. etc. its not hard to find the lists and its not hard to play them. deplyoment is important to an extend, but with the sheer speed of some armies, redeployment is not an issue. on the table top, what i found was its merely a case of target selection. the army did my thinking for me.

I read a very interesting interview of some of the older GW designers. What was interesting was how thats how they wanted it. they went into great depth on the design philosophy behind their games.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Yes there are. But it sure is a lot of fun.

fun is in the eye of the beholder. you like 40k? fair play. Some of my mates back home will never give it up. Me? As things are, i cant see myself going back. I have not had "fun" playing 40k in a long, long time. truth be told, going back to 4th ed. it simply wasnt giving me what i wanted from a wargame. Warmahordes? yup, ive played it heavily since the Mk2 field test. No looking back. Here is me having fun!

cheers

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

gunslingerpro — GMT

Deadnight has impressed me in this thread.

As for NoArmorSave, you're preaching to the converted.

To the OP, alternatives are out there. But pressuring GW seems to have a reverse effect, rather than making the game more user friendly or interesting, they limit creativity.

I honestly thought that the new 'LeakHammer' rules were interesting and fresh enough to make me dive back into Grim Dark. If it turns out that they are not true and that there will only be a re-hash of prior ground, I doubt i'll even bother reading them.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

ReturningPlayer — GMT

I've been browsing the warmachine website and while I can't comment on the rules I think the minis are really ugly I don't think they are badly made, just the style of each army looks horrible, and kind of weird in a funny way, to me.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

malfred — GMT

ReturningPlayer wrote:I was wondering if there is any alternative to White Dwarf? I'm pretty sure GW stopped their other agazines ages ago but are ehre any that deal with multiple games or an online magazine?

Also if I started a blog/online magazine type thing would people be interested in writing and submitting articles for it? And would people be interested in reading it. And would anyone have any idea if there would be any legal complications? Like could I use pictures of GW products without their permission, or only if I own them myself? Would it not be allowed to have adverts to other games, etc? I am no expert in this kind of thing so it would start out as a basic project which would hopefully improve with time. And final question, on this front, would people want it to focus on just GW games, or other miniature games or a wide variety of (and I hate using this word) "geeky" stuff, focusing mainly on war gaming and miniatures but with other stuff that people might find interesting?

I was also wondering how much do people contact and pressure GW about their rules? I know they are known to be stubbourn but companys tend to bow to overwhelming pressure from fans (especially when it cna be seen to correlate with a drop in revenue).

There are plenty of user submitted online resources out there. Whether
or not you can get anyone interested in anything other than painting/modeling
and campaign rules is another story. For instance, there are fan made
codexes and warhammer army books. Heck, I have a home grown Ork
Warphead rules for myself, but I think communities will want to be able to
interface with other communities with the least amount of friction as
possible, so they'll try to stick to the same core rules set as much as
possible. Think of it like currency, if everyone sticks to the same set of
rules/currency, there's never going to be hard feelings about someone
overvaluing their own over someone else's.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Dr. Delorean — GMT

Results on Google :
Games Workshop
31300000 results

Privateer Press
517000 results

Games Workshop
31300000 results
Malifaux
139000 results

GoogleFight any other miniature game producer, GW wins every time. I'm not saying this makes them better, but they're certainly more widespread.

Once again, we must rely on our own personal experiences in regards to the issue of popularity and game balance. From my perspective, I have a horrible opinion of Warmahordes, simply because 99.9% of the players I know are WAAC troglodytes who do -not- appreciate the importance of "a fun game", this isn't necessarily the fault of the system, but I haven't had the same problem in 40k.

Similarly, it is -my opinion- (making sure people don't think I'm stating this as fact), that 8th edition fantasy was exactly what the game needed. More randomness is a good thing, because it takes the focus off optimisation and winning, takes a lot of the seriousness away, and puts the focus back onto having a laugh and fun with your army.

The games I've had with 8th (particularly Storm of Magic) have been a lot more entertaining, simply because there's many things you -can't- control, and as soon as you just let go of your pride in your win record and refocus on what's really important, having fun, the happier you'll be. It's why I don't put my W/D/L as my sig, because I think it creates the wrong atmosphere.

But, it's just my opinion, and, as always, I am entitled to mine as you are to yours.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

malfred — GMT

Guys, stay on topic. He's asking about articles and how to
get GW to change their rules. He's not asking about comparisons
to other game companies.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Milisim — GMT

<---- 20 years of 40k....

I have a commitment to my armies as I have put so much effort in them, however that isnt enough of a reason for me to stay with 40k anymore. The rules of 5E are the most boring and unimaginative I've seen since I started playing. 2 Game Types and OP Codexes getting pumped out.... = Losing interest FAST.

I have begun building a WHFB army because I think those rules are more solid than 5E and I have begun a Fallschirmjager Flames of War army as I believe that system to be superior to 40k. I go where the game is not the loyalty is....

I would rather play 1x a month than 3x a week if the game im playing gives me that much more happiness. I play games because they are fun and bring joy to my nerdy self. 40k is like pulling teeth for me.... No joy and I can think of many things id rather be doing then struggling to make sense of the borked 5E rules.

On a side note Warmachine in my area is growing rapidly... Maybe in part because my LGS has put 40k on the "special order" only list and is stocking FoW and warmachine as their main products.... 40k is dying in my area. But who can blame it? 6E better be damn good or 40k will start to wane alot.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

warmasterhorus — GMT

the best site for GW products and wargameing products as a whole at a low price is giftsforgeeks.org.uk. i've brought loads of stuff from them and it's always cheaper than everyone else. check it out you wont be disapointed.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Dr. Delorean — GMT

I'd be interested in contributing to a periodical, a lot of the stuff out there is pretty focussed on one specific thing, maybe something more general would be interesting? Having a positive team would be important too, a lot of the stuff I've read gets very snarky about game systems the writers clearly don't think well of.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

ReturningPlayer — GMT

I've just placed an order from Weyland games yesterday so I'll see how quick they are, etc. I've read some people saying they are really good and others saying they are quite slow.

And thankyou Malfred, I gave up all hope of the thread getting back on topic lol.

Delorean I think it is very hard to write something unbiast when you are writing about something you feel strongly about, like your hobby. In my hypothetical magazine I would try to get people who are interested in whatever game to write the articles for that game, this would only be a problem when it came to reviews because people wouldn't want to write bad things about their favourite game, however some people are better than others at looking at things rationally and ignoring their personal feeligns when writing reviews of things.I wouldn't be an insumountable obstacle.

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

Dr. Delorean — GMT

No, not insurmountable at all. I'd be keen to contribute LotR articles (I could contribute WHFB or 40k too, but I think LotR would be less likely to have willing contributors), if you're still keen, throw me a PM ^^

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

candy.man — GMT

I remember when I first started out with 40k in third edition, WD was a great magazine. It had well written articles (tactical, modelling, errata, bat reps) as well as covered a variety of game systems (40K, Fantasy, LOR, Mordheim, Inquisitor, Necromunda). It’s a pity that the ‘current’ WD is pretty much a catalogue that lacks the depth of the WD of old.

I’ve personally looked around for a good wargaming magazine as a replacement to WD. I’ve checked out Wargames Illustrated (as well another popular one that I can’t remember the name of) and I’ve found that they primarily focus on historicals (with 2-3 pages of cult Sci-Fi).

So far the only one that has really stood out to me is PP’s magazine No Quarter. Structure wise, the magazine is identical to how WD used to be like in third edition (i.e. good articles, errata, bat reps, fluff pieces). It’s a pity that NQ is only bi monthly and not stocked by any of my local News Agents or FLGSs (not interested in getting a subscription).

I’d love to see more hobby magazines that didn’t focus on historicals. I’d be really interested in a good independent Sci-Fi one.

Re:I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

marielle — GMT

Ghiest1 wrote:I am curoius where you got 3.50$ for a loaf of bread, it hovers around a dollar for the last 10 years. An the above poster is correct, the boxes have alot less minature then they used to.

The little flag says Sweden... you know the outside world....

I see a lot of dissapointment in White Dwarf and Warhammer rules.

ParatrooperSimon — GMT

Kilkrazy wrote:Wargames Illustrated is a good general wargames magazine.

IMO, its the best wargames magazine there is