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				<title>Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I'm starting with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(146);'>wh40k</span>, decided to go with imperial gaurd. I have borrowed it's codex and the main codex from a friend. Before i start buying, i figured i might as well ask more experienced people if the list i have in mind has any chance of success. This should maybe go in <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(3);'>40k</span> Army lists but i dont know yet for how much points i'll go so this topic is just to throw the general idea out there and see if it is viable. I've only played the Assault on Black Reach twice and i've discovered that we did a few things wrong when we did that so i have no real experience with w40k at all.<br /> <br /> The general idea is that i'd like to go with is lots of cheap <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(69);'>IG</span> mechanised. I've seen a few mechanised lists and there are some key things i'd like to do different. Most notably, i dont like the Leman Russes. They're good tanks but most of them still have armor 10 in the rear, making them as vulnerable to melee as anything else in the codex and i think they'll simply attract too much attention. Most armies will have a way to deal with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(9);'>AV</span> 14. I want to field lots and lots of chimera's. For the price of two Leman Russes i can field three chims with troops in. Ideally i'd want to field lots of cheap units and overwhelm the enemy with targets. They will have units that can easily blow up a chimera, but they are limited in how many they can blow up each turn. I'm not sure about taking scout sentinel squadrons. They're cheap and might draw some fire away from the chimera's. I could take three seperate scout sentinels or i could maybe go for three squadrons of three. I'm not entirely sure if i should go mobile with the chim's, the units in them could rapid fire then but lasguns dont do that much and rapid fire with five or normal shooting with the entire squad is pretty much the same. I think i'd get more wounds in if i go up close and use the chim's heavvy flamer and the squads flamer. I dont know if chim's move fast enough to close the distance though.<br /> <br /> I'm thinking of fielding at least one chim in every 150 points in my army. Will it be possible to do enough damage with that? Or will they get vaporized? I'm expecting to lose at least half by the end of the second turn but i'm unsure about how much damage i can get in with them. If they're destroyed there is a good chance of them exploding for <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(123);'>str</span> 3 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(6);'>AP</span> - <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(24);'>D6</span>". Given that the standard lasgun has the same <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(123);'>str</span> and <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(6);'>AP</span> a few good explosions close enough to the enemy might have more or equal effect as the lasguns i lose by dragging my troops around in the chim's. And if i'm lucky enough the passengers survive the explosion to avoid the squad breaking allowing them to shoot one more turn before they get ripped apart. If they wreck they still provide cover to the other chims.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 15 Feb 2012 18:54:12]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ botobeno]]></author>
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				<title>Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ so, do a search for "leafblower" lists. They were really popular on the tournament scene a few years ago, and they bring tons of vehicles that are either chimeras, or are on chimera chassis (like hydras, manticores, artillery, etc.). They were tailored specifically to be good on the tournament scene (which has its own meta affected by the mission types, time limits, and lack of terrain found in most tournaments), but it's still pretty solid in general.<br /> <br /> Of course, if you want, you can probably field a list of JUST infantry models in chimeras, as practically every infantry unit has access to them, but it's probably not the most popular way to go, lacking in support units.<br /> <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 15 Feb 2012 19:04:39]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ailaros]]></author>
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				<title>Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ It would be possible, provided you had artillery as well in the list. Just make sure you have upgraded weaponry on your infantry squads. <br /> <br /> Please keep in mind the army you are planning to create is the most expensive army list in the game. This will take you a long time, and/or a lot of cash. <br /> <br /> What you are purposing is saturating the field with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(9);'>av</span> 12, which makes it tough for anyone to get at the soft, pink, juicy contents of your army <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0">]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 15 Feb 2012 19:04:49]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ juraigamer]]></author>
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				<title>Re:Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Here is a good list.  You can always sub some things out.  More to give you some ideas.<br /> <br /> <a href="http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2012/02/running-guard-without-a-counterattack-unit/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://yesthetruthhurts.com/2012/02/running-guard-without-a-counterattack-unit/</a>]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 15 Feb 2012 20:28:43]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Nungunz]]></author>
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				<title>Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Follow Nungunz link--I play a similar army, and the key to getting tons of firepower into guard mobile infantry platoons is maxing out your 3X melta special weapons squads, then having them jack somebody else's chimera in turn 1.  It gets you the firepower of a meltavet squad  from the hatches (though at BS3) for about a 35-point discount per unit.<br /> <br /> I recently tweaked an army I'm playing in a campaign by swapping in special weapons squads in a platoon over melta vets, and I boosted my army to 17 meltaguns (from 11) for the same points.<br /> <br /> Also pay attention to the tactics in the comments below the army list post.  Chimeras win by advancing to midfield, so the heavy flamers are there because you're moving every turn anyway, and it keeps the hordes away from your hulls.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 15 Feb 2012 20:38:33]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>Re:Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Thanks for the response.<br /> <br /> So in summary, nobody seems to like the walkers, chim spam is viable and if i do it properly it's competitive. The shotguns on the veteran squads is a nice idea. They're free and if the transport gets popped with a melee attack the vet's can shoot and charge in on their next turn instead. Melta's are assault too. Hadnt thought of that yet.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 15 Feb 2012 21:09:26]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ botobeno]]></author>
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				<title>Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Walkers are okay.<br /> <br /> I've used armored sentinels with plasma cannons--single ones--walking behind chimeras.  It increases your midrange marine-killing power & your AR12 spam, the sentinel gets a cover save from the chimera most of the time, and if you run into particular assault units like bloodcrushers or wyches, the sentinel can assault and tarpit the unit indefinitely.<br /> <br /> I've seen some good mech lists that use 3 individual armored sentinels with plasma cannons, with the idea that each one walks behind a chimera for cover.  3 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(331);'>PC</span> sentinels is enough to be annoying where 1 or 2 not so much.  I haven't done that list myself because I only have the one sentinel built, and because I prefer devil dogs in my fast slots.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 16 Feb 2012 13:34:59]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>Re:Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I was thinking it's melee capacities were a downside but seems like the armored walker can indeed be used to lock down enemy squads you dont want to have running around or firing. They can run in the shooting phase so the scout walker could hold squads that are very poor in melee in my first turn (for example imperial guard heavvy weapon squads). But only if i go first, if the enemy goes first it problably wont survive till my movement phase. And the enemy will most likely deploy weak units like with some protection near them. The armoured walker has a much better chance of survival,  good for getting into the melee and tieing them up longer. The armoured walker seems like the better choice but also costs more, certainly with a weapon improvement.<br /> <br /> The Vendetta seems like the best fast attack choice with it's twinlinked lascannons, but it can only move 6" if it wants to fire everything.  The armoured walker is about half the cost and is the only thing i can field with AV12 against melee, even the Leman Russ has at best AV11 against melee. With the extra armour that's standard on both the vendetta and the armoured sentinel the only bonus you get from squadrons is already on the units. The squadron rules dont really seem to make sense from a fluff point of view, certainly with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(69);'>IG</span> being able to make squadrons of ordnance artillery that isnt going to move much. <br /> <br /> I think i'll give armoured sentinels with the intent to tie them up in melee a try. Mostly because when a hellhound or vendetta blows up, it's 130+ points that i lose. The armoured sentinel without upgrades is the same price as the chimera. It fits better in my 'field lots of individually cheap units' general strategy. <br /> <br /> For elites, i'm thinking of using chims with psyker battle squads (165 points, but the psykers have a good chance of surviving the chim being destroyed) which seems to be the best elite choice if there isnt too much anti-psyker going on. If everyone i happen to play against fields anti-psyker stuff, i'll problably change to storm troopers in chims. They're worse in terms of points-firepower ratio compared to veterans but they got BS4 and can have scout so it's still better then an infantry platoon.<br /> <br /> For heavvy support i'm thinking medusa's with bastion breacher shell. In terms of damage of it's main gun it can compete with most of the leman russes variants and it gives me a way to reliable deal with enemy heavvy amour without having to rely on my melta's getting close. Besides Leman Russes it's the only heavvy support i see that doesnt lose much firepower when it moves.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 16 Feb 2012 15:42:18]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ botobeno]]></author>
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				<title>Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ 6 and 8 are popular numbers for the # of psykers in a battle squad if you need to shave points.  8 gives you reasonable antitank if you need it and instakilling on T4 models, 6 gives you the ability to wound marines and still reduces Ld10 to 4.<br /> <br /> Don't forget that in addition to scouting stormtroopers for a turn 1 cheap shot, you can also outflank them, or deploy their chimera empty on the table and deepstrike them with a scatter reroll.  I usually deepstrike my stormtroopers to get rear, short-range melta shots on backfield threats like riflemen, predators, annihilation barges etc.  A <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(695);'>SWS</span> with meltas rides in their chimera when they're not using it.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 16 Feb 2012 16:07:43]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Massive Chimera armies get boring to play quickly...so if this is an army you plan on investing in for the long term...I'd consider other units as well. I played a chim wall list for a while and I had to switch to something else as the games literally became an exercise dice rolling...and little else. These armies are also very expensive as 6-8 chimeras is usually the base number you'll have.<br /> <br /> Just my .02]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 16 Feb 2012 16:18:53]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ CaptKaruthors]]></author>
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				<title>Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Consider hydras and manticores for your heavy support. Hydras are cheap and Nast at 75pts apiece, and manticores can seriously ruin some people's days. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 16 Feb 2012 16:23:42]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ stewy37]]></author>
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				<title>Re:Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I'm thinking of giving an infantry squad krak grenades and the sergeant a melta bomb. Against vehicles that makes 9*(6+<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(24);'>D6</span>) and 1*(8+<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(1);'>2D6</span>) (if the entire squad is still alive at that point). That should hurt any vehicle with rear AV12 or less. At 65 points it's the same cost as a special weapons squad with melta's and is cheaper and less valuable then a veteran squad or command squad.  I could take dedicated chim and deploy in valk or vendetta. The empty chim could be loaded up with a unit that doesnt come with a transport and be it's taxi for the rest of the game, special weapons squad with flamers for example. With the valk & vendetta's scout move, fast and skimmer, that makes 24" pregame movement and then disembark in my next turn if the valk or vendetta is still alive, followed by move, run, assault for 12+<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(24);'>D6</span>". The main risk is that they have to survive one enemy turn but a transported CSS or vet squad has the same risk. They have the same defensive stats as a veteran squad so if the skimmer gets popped they have the same chance of staying alive as vets. The enemy can move it's vehicles if i dont have the first turn, but forcing artillery to move and not shoot or to shoot once and be destroyed is still nice. Ofcourse that would only matter if i encounter enemy armour that prefers to stand still. But unless the enemy has no vehicles or doesnt really need them it would still be a unit they have deal with.<br /> <br /> Compared to a veteran squad with meltabombs, they would be weaker against enemy rear AV12+ but equal against enemy vehicles with rear AV11 or less. As long as they manage to stay alive they can move run assault 12+<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(24);'>D6</span>" every turn. I could replace a veteran squad with an infantry platoon and make three krak-melta bomb infantry squads. With the platoon command squad and up to two special weapons squads, i'd have five more meltaguns (or flamers, or plasma) then i'd have on the vetsquad if it werent a meltabombsquad, spread over three chims (the specials embarking in my first turn) and one empty chim while my skimmers are carrying tankbusters. Giving me three loaded skimmers while still having five vet squads to drive around in chims. The <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(14);'>BS</span> is lower but the higher numbers compensate. In total, it would ofcourse cost alot more then just meltabomb vets with a dedicated chim, meaning i'd have to leave something else out. Could take two elites and/or two heavvy support instead of three. I could have two more of them fielded in a chim for five armourbuster squads total. There is no armour in the mechanised <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(69);'>IG</span> list that can confidently face 9*(6+<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(24);'>D6</span>) and 1*(8+<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(1);'>2D6</span>) melee attacks and depending on how the opponent deploys i might be able to eat away at their armour for one or two turns. In summary, they should mostly do the same as a meltabomb vetsquad but can fit five in one slot and each one is individually cheaper.<br /> <br /> ----<br /> There might be some errors left, i started confusing meltaguns and meltabombs at some point in my thinking proces.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 17 Feb 2012 02:52:51]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ botobeno]]></author>
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				<title>Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Krak grenades need a 4 to glance AR10 (50%) and can't hurt a landraider at all.<br /> <br /> Meltabombs need a 3 on <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(1);'>2d6</span> to glance AR10 (about 93%) and pen a landraider more than half the time.<br /> <br /> Meltabombs are way better against everything.<br /> <br /> The reason why people use vets with meltabombs in their valks is not just because meltabombs are better, but also because if the vehicle you're assaulting moved more than 6", you need 6's to hit it in assault.  So if a unit of 10 guys assaulting a vehicle only gets maybe 1 or 2 hits, you want those hits to count.<br /> <br /> Plus the vets get a demo charge.<br /> <br /> It sounds like you're saying that guardsmen get to move-run-assault in the same turn? You can't run & assault in the same turn unless you have the "fleet" rule.  Nothing in the guard army except rough riders can run + assault.<br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal;">Automatically Appended Next Post:</span><br /> Oh, and I should add that I personally don't use the demo vets in a valk unit.  It's too easy for somebody who knows what he's doing to counter it with a screening unit, and it's kind of expensive for a one-shot, suicidal unit that generally gives away 2 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(316);'>KPs</span> in exchange for 1.<br /> <br /> Give it a try and see if you like the unit.  When the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(69);'>IG</span> codex first came out, it was a pretty common unit, but I haven't seen one in a long time since people have figured out better options.<br /> <br /> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(72);'>IMO</span> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(69);'>IG</span> have a lot of ways to kill tanks at long range. Or use dropping stormtroopers, who are cheap, don't need a 120 point transport to get them there, and only give up 1 <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(316);'>KP</span> when they do a suicide run.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 17 Feb 2012 12:51:52]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>Re:Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I forgot about fleet, that cuts down their range, but still same as vets.<br /> <br /> I like the idea behind the demo-vets but as you say, they're too expensive and too good at other stuff to use them for that. They're very good at it if it works, but for relativly less cost the infantry squad can fulfill the suicide role while still giving the option to bring a bundle of meltaguns to the fight. Elites are 85 points and dont have the melta bomb and bring only 5 krak grenades. Where the infantry squad has a good chance to destroy a vehicle in melee, the elites are fairly poor at it. And they got only two melta guns. Not needing a transport is quite handy though.<br /> <br /> edit: how is the melee combat calculated? Is it the kraks first and then the melta bomb or all at the same time? They dont need to actually blow up the vehicle, weapon destroyed and immobilized is enough.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:36:25]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ botobeno]]></author>
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				<title>Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Assaulting vehicles happens according to initiative, just like assaulting non-vehicles.  So all your krak grenades and meltabombs go simultaneously at I3 for guardsmen.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:24:31]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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				<title>Re:Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ You do realize that melee is a horrible, horrible way to try and kill vehicles, right?  It's nice to have the option, but shooting them is much more reliable.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:40:52]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Nungunz]]></author>
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				<title>Re:Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>botobeno wrote:</cite>I was thinking it's melee capacities were a downside but seems like the armored walker can indeed be used to lock down enemy squads you dont want to have running around or firing. They can run in the shooting phase so the scout walker could hold squads that are very poor in melee in my first turn (for example imperial guard heavvy weapon squads). But only if i go first, if the enemy goes first it problably wont survive till my movement phase. And the enemy will most likely deploy weak units like with some protection near them. The armoured walker has a much better chance of survival,  good for getting into the melee and tieing them up longer. The armoured walker seems like the better choice but also costs more, certainly with a weapon improvement.<br /> <br /> The Vendetta seems like the best fast attack choice with it's twinlinked lascannons, but it can only move 6" if it wants to fire everything.  The armoured walker is about half the cost and is the only thing i can field with AV12 against melee, even the Leman Russ has at best AV11 against melee. With the extra armour that's standard on both the vendetta and the armoured sentinel the only bonus you get from squadrons is already on the units. The squadron rules dont really seem to make sense from a fluff point of view, certainly with <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(69);'>IG</span> being able to make squadrons of ordnance artillery that isnt going to move much. <br /> <br /> I think i'll give armoured sentinels with the intent to tie them up in melee a try. Mostly because when a hellhound or vendetta blows up, it's 130+ points that i lose. The armoured sentinel without upgrades is the same price as the chimera. It fits better in my 'field lots of individually cheap units' general strategy. <br /> <br /> For elites, i'm thinking of using chims with psyker battle squads (165 points, but the psykers have a good chance of surviving the chim being destroyed) which seems to be the best elite choice if there isnt too much anti-psyker going on. If everyone i happen to play against fields anti-psyker stuff, i'll problably change to storm troopers in chims. They're worse in terms of points-firepower ratio compared to veterans but they got BS4 and can have scout so it's still better then an infantry platoon.<br /> <br /> For heavvy support i'm thinking medusa's with bastion breacher shell. In terms of damage of it's main gun it can compete with most of the leman russes variants and it gives me a way to reliable deal with enemy heavvy amour without having to rely on my melta's getting close. Besides Leman Russes it's the only heavvy support i see that doesnt lose much firepower when it moves.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Actually I thought Valks/Dettas could move 12 inch and fire? Since they're fast and skimmers.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sat, 18 Feb 2012 20:33:10]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ TheLordOfSins]]></author>
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				<title>Starting IG, thinking about fielding lots of chim's.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Fast vehicles can move 12" and fire one weapon, or 6" and fire everything.<br /> <br /> Skimmer or non-skimmer doesn't affect the number of weapons it can fire when moving.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 19 Feb 2012 01:13:07]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Flavius Infernus]]></author>
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