<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/54.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

A US soldier in Afghanistan has killed 10 civilians and wounded five in Kandahar province after suffering a breakdown, officials say.

He left his military base in the early hours of the morning and opened fire after entering local homes; women and children are said to be among the dead.

Nato said it was investigating the "deeply regrettable incident".

Anti-US sentiment is already high in Afghanistan after US soldiers burnt copies of the Koran last month.

US officials have apologised repeatedly for the incident at a Nato base in Kabul, but they failed to quell a series of protests and attacks that killed at least 30 people and six US troops.

Local people have reportedly gathered near the base in Panjwai district to protest about Sunday's killings, and the US embassy is advising against travel to the area.

Investigation

The soldier has not been named, but is thought to be a staff sergeant.

He walked off his base at around 03:00 local time (22:30 GMT Saturday).

According to a resident quoted by Associated Press, he opened fire in three separate houses in the village of Alkozai.

"I heard gunshots and then silence and then gunshots again," Abdul Baqi said.

Local tribal leaders said women and children were among the dead.

The BBC's Quentin Somerville in Kabul says the death toll could rise as high as 17.

A delegation from the provincial governor's office has arrived in the village to determine what has happened, a spokesman said.

After carrying out the killings, the soldier reportedly handed himself over to the US military authorities.

The Nato-led International Security Assistance Force (Isaf) said in a statement that US officials in Afghanistan would work with their Afghan counterparts to investigate what happened.

"This is a deeply regrettable incident and we extend our thoughts and concerns to the families involved," Isaf added.

Meanwhile, in Kabul, Afghan President Hamid Karzai said his government still expects to sign a strategic partnership with the United States in the next couple of months.

In a televised speech, he said discussions would continue on the precise role the US will play in Afghanistan after Nato hands over security responsibility to Kabul at the end of 2014.

On Friday, Kabul and Washington reached a deal to transfer US-run prisons in the country to Afghan control.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017834.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017834.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
I hope that this doesn't start something ugly in the region...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017844.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017844.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
US soldier murdering civilians on a whim. How dare he, that the Talibans job.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017848.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017943.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
It's unlikely to come to a death penalty, and even if it does that would take years of legal wrangling and several different courtrooms. Both far too removed and delayed for the local populace to feel that any sort of justice has been dealt out.
And that's assuming this won't become another case of Lieutenant Calley.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017947.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what our politicians say....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017955.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4017955.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

WarOne wrote:Chances are the soldier is going to get life imprisonment in a military prison. The military would not think even twice of handing him over to the Afghan authorities over this matter.

On the other hand, it would be interesting to see what our politicians say....

Absolutely no chance at that, there's no real trust between the Afghan government and the US, certainly not in the public eye. It would be political suicide for whoever supported handing the soldier over.

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Thanks to the BBC for helping to spread news that disparages troops in the region.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018037.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:All the stuff that happens over there, and this is what gets reported.

Thanks to the BBC for helping to spread news that disparages troops in the region.

So some soldier goes nuts and guns down civilians and it should be swept under the rug? I'm pretty sure that it is being reported across the entire middle east regardless of whether western news companies are running the story...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018048.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:All the stuff that happens over there, and this is what gets reported.

Thanks to the BBC for helping to spread news that disparages troops in the region.

Yeah becuase that's the bad thing here...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018063.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018063.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
But if you have a license the way the warring sectarian factions do, you can hurl a live grenade into a packed mosque and the locals won't even blink.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018085.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018085.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018090.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018090.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:All the stuff that happens over there, and this is what gets reported.

Thanks to the BBC for helping to spread news that disparages troops in the region.

Shock horror. BBC news reports news in an independant way about a horrific event rather than covering stuff up.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018155.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018155.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:
Thanks to the BBC for helping to spread news that disparages troops in the region.

It seems they simply said a particular soldier did a particular thing.

I didn't see many plural nouns, relevant to soldiers, in that article.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018160.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018160.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018181.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018181.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

hotsauceman1 wrote:When our soldiers start acting like i think it means we may have spent to much on this war.

We don't yet know why. He may have just gone postal in the US instead, most issues like this are personal at heart.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018387.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018387.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:All the stuff that happens over there, and this is what gets reported.

Thanks to the BBC for helping to spread news that disparages troops in the region.

Yes, the news should only report on things that make America look good. Why, it's unpatriotic to do otherwise!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018409.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018409.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018424.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018424.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018433.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018450.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018450.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Electro wrote:

biccat wrote:All the stuff that happens over there, and this is what gets reported.

Thanks to the BBC for helping to spread news that disparages troops in the region.

Shock horror. BBC news reports news in an independant way about a horrific event rather than covering stuff up.

Actually that would be hard to cover up without making things a lot worse by leaning very heavily on the local populace.

The BBC has a bad record of giving away too much though.

In the Falklands War the BBC decided to be 'fearless pursuers of truth' and revealed to the public why tghe Argentine bombs were not detonating. This told the public nothing of real importance, but was invaluable info for the Argentines who fixed the problem decreasing the percentage of unexploded ordnance from 75% to near nothing.
Thanks BBC.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018548.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018548.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018582.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018582.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:All the stuff that happens over there, and this is what gets reported.

Thanks to the BBC for helping to spread news that disparages troops in the region.

Ah come on Bic, I mean, feth me, I'm all for keeping an eye out for the troops, but some bloke going ape gak and slotting a load of civvies is hardly the BBCs fault is it?!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018639.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

feeder wrote:Is it bad/racist/otherwise that I thought "At least he lost his gak over there instead of coming home and doing it here" ?

No. That's entirely sane. If someone must die, better them than us, correct? That's just logical selfishness.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018708.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018708.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Albatross wrote:It's called 'news', Orlanth. This 'news' is often 'reported' by 'journalists' via the 'media'. It's not a conspiracy to make your heroes look bad/get killed.

You miss the point Albatross, it would make sense not to report sometimes. It also makes sense to censor. This one came out before the government could slab a D-Notice down, or overlooked. The why's of the unexploded ordnance dont mean anything to the public.
This alongside 'yellow press' is one of the reasons why we now have 'embedded journalists' in major operations. Its effectively a synonym for media control.

Why do you insist on assuming I think its a conspiracy? It would help if you read the text as opposed to glancing at it and making unrelated assumptions on the content.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018730.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018730.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
As for the story. It just goes to show for all the bad guys who the military are out there getting rid of we still have witches on our side too.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018772.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018772.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Orlanth wrote:
This alongside 'yellow press' is one of the reasons why we now have 'embedded journalists' in major operations. Its effectively a synonym for media control.

No, it isn't.

The influence of the media on military operations predates the embedded journalist by a long, long time.

William Randolph Hearst was a person, you see.

Orlanth wrote:
Why do you insist on assuming I think its a conspiracy?

Probably because you say things that make it appear as though you do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018860.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018860.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
It really is time to get the heck out of there.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018916.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Albatross wrote:It's called 'news', Orlanth. This 'news' is often 'reported' by 'journalists' via the 'media'. It's not a conspiracy to make your heroes look bad/get killed.

I think you should read his post more closely.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018928.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018928.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Seriously though, you have to wonder why no-one noticed any warning signs, not that there necessarily were any, but...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4018996.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

dogma wrote:
The influence of the media on military operations predates the embedded journalist by a long, long time..

Yawn, that is the point of introducing embedded journalists, to limit the influence of independent media.

You are perhaps inadvertently posting to agree with me here actually but cannot for the life of you write it up that way.

dogma wrote:
Probably because you say things that make it appear as though you do.

From one deliberate misreader of my posts to be supported by another isn't going to shock.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jakka wrote:
Albatross wrote:It's called 'news', Orlanth. This 'news' is often 'reported' by 'journalists' via the 'media'. It's not a conspiracy to make your heroes look bad/get killed.

I think you should read his post more closely.

Thankyou.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019031.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019031.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Orlanth wrote:
Yawn, that is the point of introducing embedded journalists, to limit the influence of independent media.

You are perhaps inadvertently posting to agree with me here actually but cannot for the life of you write it up that way.

No, not really. Media control exists external to any particular journalist, or information outlet.

The point of the embedded journalist isn't media control any more than the point of any journalist given access to the state is media control, because there is no such thing as "independent media".

Orlanth wrote:
From one deliberate misreader of my posts to be supported by another isn't going to shock.

Confirmation bias is a thing you have a particular talent fort exhibiting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019146.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019167.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019167.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:All the stuff that happens over there, and this is what gets reported.

Thanks to the BBC for helping to spread news that disparages troops in the region.

Yes, clearly it's the people reporting a murder who are the culprits here, and not the murderer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019170.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019170.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

lord_blackfang wrote:

biccat wrote:All the stuff that happens over there, and this is what gets reported.

Thanks to the BBC for helping to spread news that disparages troops in the region.

Yes, clearly it's the people reporting a murder who are the culprits here, and not the murderer.

Well, clearly censoring the reporting of a murder rampage is more important than preventing murder rampages to begin with. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019187.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019187.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
They should have had a Sanctioned Pysker attached to their squad, he would have for seen it.
but on a serious note this sort of thing happens all the time but the world just either ignores it (Veitnam) or they make it big news (Afganistan event). Either way the should be things put in place to ensure the health and safety of the Soldiers and civies.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019215.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019215.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

LORD_PANTERA wrote:I may get banned for this but I will voice my concern:

They should have had a Sanctioned Pysker attached to their squad, he would have for seen it.

You won't get banned from the site, but you may have just banned yourself from ever having a girlfriend with that statement, bro...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019317.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019317.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan UK, or Aussie armed forces do not just go rogue and start randomly shooting civilians 'all the time'.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019331.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019331.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Ahtman wrote:Soldiers in the US, UK, or Aussie armed forces do not just go rogue and start randomly shooting civilians 'all the time'.

I agree with this...
AFAIK this tends to be a rarity...
I mean, i don't know everything that happens but AFAIK it is rare for this kind of stuff to happen...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019340.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019340.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Terrible event. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019356.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019356.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

purplefood wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Soldiers in the US, UK, or Aussie armed forces do not just go rogue and start randomly shooting civilians 'all the time'.

I agree with this...
AFAIK this tends to be a rarity...
I mean, i don't know everything that happens but AFAIK it is rare for this kind of stuff to happen...

Agreed. That's why it makes news.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019360.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019360.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

MrDwhitey wrote:It happens every time you buy a kitkat for £1.70.

Terrible event.

Damnit...
Now i'm gonna have to burn that place down...
Them and their horribly over-priced Kitkats...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019372.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019372.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
I'm not sure why Oralnth's post caused such an issue, and I can hardly see any conspiracy theory in the first post. How can anybody not agree that reporting the artillery thing wasn't completely irresponsible?

It's like that Quran burning preacher thing. If that hadn't been reported nobody would know or care. Countless holy texts are probably burned daily as are other symbols precious to certain peoples. One mental preacher isn't going to make a difference, it just pushes up tensions in the relationships between religious groups and society in general when it's reported. It completely skews the picture into a X group in society hates Y group because random person A went through with offensive action B to provoke group Y. MADNESS!

I can't argue that this shouldn't have been reported and I'm not going to, but implying that the media is never irresponsible in it's reporting choices is a complete joke. If people weren't doing that, then why are you arguing?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019493.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019493.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:All the stuff that happens over there, and this is what gets reported.

Thanks to the BBC for helping to spread news that disparages troops in the region.

How dare they not whitewash killing sprees like our own fair and balanced news sources. I mean, they didn't pry into the last few times this happened, why the stink about it now? Where is their journalistic integrity?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019587.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Ahtman wrote:I love that a man can gun people down in cold blood and the real tragedy for some is that it is reported.

Except, by and large, most of the stuff happening over in Afghanistan is positive. Does the BBC front page regularly feature positive stories in Afghanistan, or do they just feature negative stories, appeasing the anti-war left?

Yes, this is bad. No, it's not as bad as what the terrorists are doing over there. Yes, Afghanistan is moving in the right direction.

The US (and UK, fwiw) is being held to an different and higher standard in Afghanistan. Whether this is appropriate or not remains a legitimate question.

ShumaGorath wrote:How dare they not whitewash killing sprees like our own fair and balanced news sources. I mean, they didn't pry into the last few times this happened, why the stink about it now? Where is their journalistic integrity?

Damn right. They do it all the time for the "insurgents" (read: foreign mercenaries). Journalistic integrity would suggest the US gets one or two free.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019869.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019869.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:

Ahtman wrote:I love that a man can gun people down in cold blood and the real tragedy for some is that it is reported.

ShumaGorath wrote:How dare they not whitewash killing sprees like our own fair and balanced news sources. I mean, they didn't pry into the last few times this happened, why the stink about it now? Where is their journalistic integrity?

Damn right. They do it all the time for the "insurgents" (read: foreign mercenaries). Journalistic integrity would suggest the US gets one or two free.

Positive things often don't get reported because that is what people expect to happen and is what should happen.

If you get your oil changed and your car doesn't fall apart afterwards, do you call the manager?
If you get the right meal at McD's, do you make sure people know about it?
If your pothole gets filled in a timely manner, do you call the major and thank him?

People are expected not to screw up, so why should the news spend time reporting on that?

I don't expect to turn in MSCNNBCFOX and find lots of stories of our military not screwing up. I expect our military not to screw up.

Sorry of that is a horrible concept. I will petition the news to have a nightly "Days since last screwup counter".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019933.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019933.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:
Except, by and large, most of the stuff happening over in Afghanistan is positive.

The status quo isn't news.

There's also more than a few people who would challenge the idea that what happens in Afghanistan is mostly positive. Whatever "positive*" means in this context.

*I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt by not assuming its simply "what generic conservatives like."

biccat wrote:
No, it's not as bad as what the terrorists are doing over there.

There are terrorists over there?

The Taliban, or at least what approximates the Taliban, is not a terrorist organization. At least not unless any non-national armed force is a terrorist organization.

Not a good definition, but one which would make all the Blackwater haters happy.

biccat wrote:
Yes, Afghanistan is moving in the right direction.

Hard to say. Its a question of significant debate.

We're certainly engaged in conflict there, but whether or not its productive is a separate matter.

biccat wrote:
Damn right. They do it all the time for the "insurgents" (read: foreign mercenaries). Journalistic integrity would suggest the US gets one or two free.

You're assuming there was sufficient information to make a report as regards the insurgents.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019946.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019946.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

You realllllly haven't been paying attention to whats been happening in Afghanistan in the last five years have you? The place is falling apart and we're getting ready to abandon it to civil war and a resumption of the Taliban state. Any positive news is an attempt to swim the public image of the conflict positively to make it easier to pull out.

The mission in Afghanistan has been an unqualified failure from the moment we left it for Iraq. It's government is ludicrously corrupt, it's security forces are utterly incapable (and corrupt), it's police forces are basically militaristic mafias, and almost every governmental institution is paralyzed to the point of uselessness. About the only thing that's gotten better in the last decade is education rates, and even those likely won't last long once we leave.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019961.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019961.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

dogma wrote:

biccat wrote:No, it's not as bad as what the terrorists are doing over there.

There are terrorists over there?

Yup. Generally anyone who intentionally targets civilians in order to attain political change is a terrorist.

I didn't say Taliban.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019973.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019973.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:

dogma wrote:
biccat wrote:No, it's not as bad as what the terrorists are doing over there.

There are terrorists over there?

Yup. Generally anyone who intentionally targets civilians in order to attain political change is a terrorist.

I didn't say Taliban.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

Whelp, glad that we've got that settled. Everyone's terrorists.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019975.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019975.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:
Yup. Generally anyone who intentionally targets civilians in order to attain political change is a terrorist.

So, dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was terrorism?

biccat wrote:
I didn't say Taliban.

No, you didn't, but that is the standard moniker for the forces opposing the US.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4019989.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Apparently, that's not that uncommon. It also appears to be somewhat of an open secret that the Afghan intelligence service is torturing people.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020009.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020009.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

dogma wrote:

biccat wrote:
Yup. Generally anyone who intentionally targets civilians in order to attain political change is a terrorist.

So, dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was terrorism?

Nope, we weren't doing it to effect political change, we were doing it because it was war.

Why do you and Shuma insist on trying to classify the US military as a terrorist organization?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020061.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Nope, we weren't doing it to effect political change, we were doing it because it was war.

And what, praytell, was the point of the bombing campaign if not to effect political change, namely the surrender of the Japanese military? How exactly is that not a political change?

Why do you and Shuma insist on trying to classify the US military as a terrorist organization?

You're the one with a hilariously open ended classification for what constitutes a terrorist organization and act. We don't have your mile long list of exemptions*, so we're just going by what you say.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020112.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020112.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020123.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020123.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:
Nope, we weren't doing it to effect political change, we were doing it because it was war.

Wait, what?

War is a political tool. It is, by its nature, about effecting a political change.

biccat wrote:
Why do you and Shuma insist on trying to classify the US military as a terrorist organization?

I don't really care if it is, or if it isn't. I consider the civilian/soldier distinction ephemeral at best, and further think targeting civilians is prudent in certain circumstances.

I also think that the word "terrorist" is as close to meaningless as any word in the modern English language.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020131.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020131.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan There were some angry guys in the Afghan thread]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020133.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020133.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020223.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020483.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4020483.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4021589.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4021589.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

biccat wrote:

dogma wrote:
biccat wrote:
Yup. Generally anyone who intentionally targets civilians in order to attain political change is a terrorist.

So, dropping nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was terrorism?

Nope, we weren't doing it to effect political change, we were doing it because it was war.

Why do you and Shuma insist on trying to classify the US military as a terrorist organization?

In Dogma's defense, he doesn't. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4021621.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4021621.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Melissia wrote:I'm fairly certain the locals hate that too, it just doesn't get press because the US is more important than the local sectarian violence dealers.

They do (as long as it's not their people who get bombed. Then they love it)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4021979.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4021979.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Sort of a Jihad version of The Running Man...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023229.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023229.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023236.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023249.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023249.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

CT GAMER wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

Key words "everyone else" and "go without him"

although it turns out I had to add the "out" and now I'm assuming that's what Frazz meant.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023259.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023259.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

AustonT wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

Key words "everyone else" and "go without him"

although it turns out I had to add the "out" and now I'm assuming that's what Frazz meant.

Given Frazz's posting history, I would have never assumed that...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023266.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023266.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

CT GAMER wrote:

AustonT wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

Key words "everyone else" and "go without him"

although it turns out I had to add the "out" and now I'm assuming that's what Frazz meant.

Given Frazz's posting history, I would have never assumed that...

Thats because NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023280.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023280.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Sorry, but the Army should send you out if you take a brain injury. There is no telling what may happen once the brain is damaged, no matter how well he seemed to have recovered.

Time for the Army to update their other thinking to the 21st century, not just their weapons/equipment/tactics. Soldiers are treated as property, how 18th century of them!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://gma.yahoo.com/soldier-held-afghan-massacre-had-brain-injury-marital-061722796--abc-news.html]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023325.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

CT GAMER wrote:Why not give him full kit, wish him well and escort him off the base?

Sort of a Jihad version of The Running Man...

This is a fething quality idea.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023367.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023367.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
But, sadly you can't start dictating to the press what they can and can't print, that's the beginning of a dangerous road.

The root of the problem is having the kind of civil unrest, and soldiers with guns, in that kind of situation next to a civilian population. Similar things used to happen in Northern Ireland all the time (not in terms of soldiers going 'postal', but civilians being shot by accident). ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023474.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023474.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

mattyrm wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:Why not give him full kit, wish him well and escort him off the base?

Sort of a Jihad version of The Running Man...

This is a fething quality idea.

Why can I see this is a new reality show with you as the host?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023538.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023538.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

SilverMK2 wrote:
I hope that this doesn't start something ugly in the region...

Something ugly in the region... is it really possible for the situation in the region to get worse?

Speaking as an american, I gotta say I just don't care anymore. I know I sound cold or evil, but after having troops there for SO GODDAM LONG and sending so much goddam money to pay to help people that nobody in this country even seems to like... I just gotta wonder, are we suppose to care? Are we suppose to really feel for these people? Because I just cant anymore, maybe if this happened like 5 or 6 years ago I might have gotten mad, but I'm sorry I just cannot make myself care about something bad happening in that region anymore. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023553.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

CT GAMER wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

I don't see what he did wrong. It wasn't in cold blood, his mind snapped.

Now...the Taliban/Afghans on the other hand...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023753.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023753.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

I don't see what he did wrong. It wasn't in cold blood, his mind snapped.

Now...the Taliban/Afghans on the other hand...

That hasn't been asserted yet. It certainly seems pre-planned, sneaking out of the base at 3AM and then calmly handing himself to the US authorities after the deed, rather than cracking under the intense pressure of the moment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023914.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Pacific wrote:I can kind of understand Biccat's point in the grander scheme of things. Because this story has been reported, no doubt more soldiers will die because of the reaction.

But, sadly you can't start dictating to the press what they can and can't print, that's the beginning of a dangerous road.

The root of the problem is having the kind of civil unrest, and soldiers with guns, in that kind of situation next to a civilian population. Similar things used to happen in Northern Ireland all the time (not in terms of soldiers going 'postal', but civilians being shot by accident).

Even if the press did shut up, which is a big if, the local communities would have to be forcibly silenced. This could only end in a total fethstorm.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023932.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023932.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://gma.yahoo.com/soldier-held-afghan-massacre-had-brain-injury-marital-061722796--abc-news.html

Insanity comes in many forms, some of it looks more reasonable than the more blatantly obvious forms.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023935.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:

I don't see what he did wrong. It wasn't in cold blood, his mind snapped.

Now...the Taliban/Afghans on the other hand...

When someones mind snaps, they don't always go bananas instantly. That gives time for pre-planning. Some of the more fearful lunatics were ones who carefully and meticulously planned out their murders.

He requires proper medical evaluation since the military seems to have half-assed the care of their soldiers unsurprisingly.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023940.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

When someones mind snaps, they don't always go bananas instantly that gives time for pre-planning. He requires proper medical evaluation since the military seems to have half-assed the care of their soldiers unsurprisingly.

That actually happens more often than not.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023943.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023949.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023949.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

I don't see what he did wrong. It wasn't in cold blood, his mind snapped.

Now...the Taliban/Afghans on the other hand...

You don't see what he did wrong? Here, I'll help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17336587]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023953.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023953.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

ShumaGorath wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

I don't see what he did wrong. It wasn't in cold blood, his mind snapped.

Now...the Taliban/Afghans on the other hand...

You don't see what he did wrong? Here, I'll help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17336587

I'm waiting for proof that he wasn't insane. Which is a far cry different from the Taliban (who are perfectly sane and more murderous)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023959.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023959.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan UK forces in Afghanistan...

...but then, I'm not a conspiracy-minded chap.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023967.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023967.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:

I don't see what he did wrong. It wasn't in cold blood, his mind snapped.

Now...the Taliban/Afghans on the other hand...

That hasn't been asserted yet. It certainly seems pre-planned, sneaking out of the base at 3AM and then calmly handing himself to the US authorities after the deed, rather than cracking under the intense pressure of the moment.

He was cleared for combat, passed the health screening to become a sniper and received advanced treatment for his mild brain injury.

What then appears to be for all intents and purposes a healthy individual walks out of a US Base, breaks into three seperate homes and kills the families inside. 8 of which were children. What is there, apart from the horrid nature of the crime, to suggest he has a defence of insanity?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Hyena wrote:
I'm waiting for proof that he wasn't insane. Which is a far cry different from the Taliban (who are perfectly sane and more murderous)

Funny, I had the impression that it was supposed to be the other way around.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023968.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

bibblles wrote:

SilverMK2 wrote:
I hope that this doesn't start something ugly in the region...

I kind of agree, but for different reasons. I want the troops to come home not because of a lack of care for the local populace, but for simple political and practical reasons: you can't police the world.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023975.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023975.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

He was cleared for combat, passed the health screening to become a sniper and received advanced treatment for his mild brain injury.

Was the treatment good? Did they fail to evaluate his mental state correctly? What about the person who evaluated them? Have they been examined to see if they were incorrect?

What then appears to be for all intents and purposes a healthy individual walks out of a US Base, breaks into three seperate homes and kills the families inside. 8 of which were children. What is there, apart from the horrid nature of the crime, to suggest he has a defence of insanity?

A man that has been deployed more times than he should, who is having, what appears, to be a terrible home life due to the army and who also has a brain injury...

That would send off alarm bells for most behavioural psychologists. This is a person who should have been asked to take a break.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023982.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023982.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023987.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4023987.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

He was cleared for combat, passed the health screening to become a sniper and received advanced treatment for his mild brain injury.

Was the treatment good? Did they fail to evaluate him correctly? What about the person who evaluated them? Have they been examined to see if they were incorrect?

What then appears to be for all intents and purposes a healthy individual walks out of a US Base, breaks into three seperate homes and kills the families inside. 8 of which were children. What is there, apart from the horrid nature of the crime, to suggest he has a defence of insanity?

It did send off alarm bells, which is why he went through not one, but two mental health screenings. That they both deemed him fit for combat strongly suggests that this act was pre-meditated and done in cold blood.

Is it really so hard to admit that a US soldier is capable of committing these crimes without being protected by claims of insanity?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024000.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:

He was cleared for combat, passed the health screening to become a sniper and received advanced treatment for his mild brain injury.

Was the treatment good? Did they fail to evaluate him correctly? What about the person who evaluated them? Have they been examined to see if they were incorrect?

What then appears to be for all intents and purposes a healthy individual walks out of a US Base, breaks into three seperate homes and kills the families inside. 8 of which were children. What is there, apart from the horrid nature of the crime, to suggest he has a defence of insanity?

A man that has been deployed more times than he should, who is having, what appears, to be a terrible home life due to the army and who also has a brain injury...

That would send off alarm bells for most behavioural psychologists.

Only 2? Are Health Screens infalible? How deep were the examinations?

It's not hard to admit that anyone is capable of these crimes, but the quality of care the US military has for its soldiers...is pretty low.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024010.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024010.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024017.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:

He was cleared for combat, passed the health screening to become a sniper and received advanced treatment for his mild brain injury.

Was the treatment good? Did they fail to evaluate him correctly? What about the person who evaluated them? Have they been examined to see if they were incorrect?

What then appears to be for all intents and purposes a healthy individual walks out of a US Base, breaks into three seperate homes and kills the families inside. 8 of which were children. What is there, apart from the horrid nature of the crime, to suggest he has a defence of insanity?

A man that has been deployed more times than he should, who is having, what appears, to be a terrible home life due to the army and who also has a brain injury...

That would send off alarm bells for most behavioural psychologists.

It did send off alarm bells, which is why he went through not one, but two mental health screenings. That they both deemed him fit for combat strongly suggests that this act was pre-meditated and done in cold blood.

Is it really so hard to admit that a US soldier is capable of committing these crimes without being protected by claims of insanity?

Only 2? Are Health Screens infalible? How deep were the examinations?

If the soldier responsible even uses insanity as a defence, the onus would be on him to somehow prove that the psychologists (of which there'd be more than one) were negligent in providing the diagnosis that he was combat ready. All the evidence as it stands points to him being an individual of healthy mind. People with healthy minds commit heinous murders all the time.

It's not hard to admit that anyone is capable of these crimes, but the quality of care the US military has for its soldiers...is pretty low.

Given that I'm pretty sure the Taliban doesn't have health screens at all, we might be using the same argument for them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024027.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024027.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:

He was cleared for combat, passed the health screening to become a sniper and received advanced treatment for his mild brain injury.

Was the treatment good? Did they fail to evaluate him correctly? What about the person who evaluated them? Have they been examined to see if they were incorrect?

What then appears to be for all intents and purposes a healthy individual walks out of a US Base, breaks into three seperate homes and kills the families inside. 8 of which were children. What is there, apart from the horrid nature of the crime, to suggest he has a defence of insanity?

A man that has been deployed more times than he should, who is having, what appears, to be a terrible home life due to the army and who also has a brain injury...

That would send off alarm bells for most behavioural psychologists.

It did send off alarm bells, which is why he went through not one, but two mental health screenings. That they both deemed him fit for combat strongly suggests that this act was pre-meditated and done in cold blood.

Is it really so hard to admit that a US soldier is capable of committing these crimes without being protected by claims of insanity?

Only 2? Are Health Screens infalible? How deep were the examinations?

It's not hard to admit that anyone is capable of these crimes, but the quality of care the US military has for its soldiers...is pretty low.

Given that I'm pretty sure the Taliban doesn't have health screens at all, we might be using the same argument for them.

Then the conclusion is that more information is needed to confirm either way. Well, then first he would need to be evaluated with a proper clinician and his brain re-examined without using military people. The dangers with psychosis is the possibility of resurgence. The newspaper article mentions that he has worked through some of his home life problems, but combat stress can invoke a resurgence.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024037.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024037.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024040.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024040.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

Then the conclusion is that more information is needed to confirm either way. Well, then first he would need to be evaluated with a proper clinician and his brain re-examined without using military people. The dangers with psychosis is the possibility of resurgence. The newspaper article mentions that he has worked through some of his home life problems, but combat stress can invoke a resurgence.

Fair enough, though as it is the evidence points to him being a sane individual. Whether what comes up in the trial disputes this is something that we'll have to wait for.

shasolenzabi wrote:When I was having some depressive issues the Army deemed me after screening to simply be emotionally upset and had a "bad attitude" and sent me out to my unit as was. no meds prescribed, no sessions of therapy. Just get back to work ya lazy SOB. They would be screening to check for his retention of intellect and attitude to do his job as a sniper, which is of course killing folks. So yeah, he likely passed under those criteria.

As far as I know you didn't crack and kill anyone, so it may have been the appropriate diagnosis.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024055.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

I don't see what he did wrong. It wasn't in cold blood, his mind snapped.

Now...the Taliban/Afghans on the other hand...

You don't see what he did wrong? Here, I'll help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17336587

I'm waiting for proof that he wasn't insane. Which is a far cry different from the Taliban (who are perfectly sane and more murderous)

Ahh, yes, I'm sure that being tortured by the Afghani (or previously Egyptian) military after being captured by U.S. forces has never driven anyone insane enough to join a violent extremist movement. Clearly they're all just mean ol' killers, nothing in that conflict bound region could ever cause mental distress

. Come on, try harder then that. If that's really your defense for the massacre of 16 people, mostly children, then you might as well stay silent.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024056.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024056.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

ShumaGorath wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

I don't see what he did wrong. It wasn't in cold blood, his mind snapped.

Now...the Taliban/Afghans on the other hand...

You don't see what he did wrong? Here, I'll help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17336587

I'm waiting for proof that he wasn't insane. Which is a far cry different from the Taliban (who are perfectly sane and more murderous)

. Come on, try harder then that. If that's really your defense for the massacre of 16 people, mostly children, then you might as well stay silent.

Aaaah...the good-old whats good for one group is not good for another. So your a taliban supporter?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024061.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

As far as I know you didn't crack and kill anyone, so it may have been the appropriate diagnosis.

Well, I agree that he should be checked and evaluated and he likely passed because the Military is not really that interested if you are all puppies and bunnies, his job was killing, so if he slipped, they may have assumed he was just wanting to get back to sniping.

My job was working with Nukes, so with two man control, it would have been harder, and i was merely dealing with depression, no head trauma/brain damage]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024068.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024068.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:
Aaaah...the good-old whats good for one group is not good for another. So your a taliban supporter?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024084.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024084.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:
Aaaah...the good-old whats good for one group is not good for another. So your a taliban supporter?

He's great fun at parties, though. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024086.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

shasolenzabi wrote:

As far as I know you didn't crack and kill anyone, so it may have been the appropriate diagnosis.

Is this a saying or a spell-check fail?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024087.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:
Aaaah...the good-old whats good for one group is not good for another. So your a taliban supporter?

You're right HH...
That should have been 'So you're a Taliban supporter?']]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024090.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024090.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

I don't see what he did wrong. It wasn't in cold blood, his mind snapped.

Now...the Taliban/Afghans on the other hand...

You don't see what he did wrong? Here, I'll help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17336587

I'm waiting for proof that he wasn't insane. Which is a far cry different from the Taliban (who are perfectly sane and more murderous)

Ahh, yes, I'm sure that being tortured by the Afghani (or previously Egyptian) military after being captured by U.S. forces has never driven anyone insane enough to join a violent extremist movement. Clearly they're all just mean ol' killers, nothing in that conflict bound region could ever cause mental distress . Come on, try harder then that. If that's really your defense for the massacre of 16 people, mostly children, then you might as well stay silent.

Aaaah...the good-old whats good for one group is not good for another. So your a taliban supporter?

I think you're missing something here.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024102.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024102.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

ShumaGorath wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

I don't see what he did wrong. It wasn't in cold blood, his mind snapped.

Now...the Taliban/Afghans on the other hand...

You don't see what he did wrong? Here, I'll help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17336587

I'm waiting for proof that he wasn't insane. Which is a far cry different from the Taliban (who are perfectly sane and more murderous)

Ahh, yes, I'm sure that being tortured by the Afghani (or previously Egyptian) military after being captured by U.S. forces has never driven anyone insane enough to join a violent extremist movement. Clearly they're all just mean ol' killers, nothing in that conflict bound region could ever cause mental distress . Come on, try harder then that. If that's really your defense for the massacre of 16 people, mostly children, then you might as well stay silent.

Aaaah...the good-old whats good for one group is not good for another. So your a taliban supporter?

I think you're missing something here.

I'm not the one who is trying to get sympathy for the Taliban here.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024107.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024107.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
CT GAMER wrote:
Frazzled wrote:Better idea. Everyone else, pack up and go with him, burning everything as they leave.

Leave Afghanistan to the Afghanis.

I'd prefer a mass murderer be denied reentry into the country tbh.

Leave him there and see how long he can live out his Rambo fantasies...

I don't see what he did wrong. It wasn't in cold blood, his mind snapped.

Now...the Taliban/Afghans on the other hand...

You don't see what he did wrong? Here, I'll help.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17336587

I'm waiting for proof that he wasn't insane. Which is a far cry different from the Taliban (who are perfectly sane and more murderous)

Ahh, yes, I'm sure that being tortured by the Afghani (or previously Egyptian) military after being captured by U.S. forces has never driven anyone insane enough to join a violent extremist movement. Clearly they're all just mean ol' killers, nothing in that conflict bound region could ever cause mental distress . Come on, try harder then that. If that's really your defense for the massacre of 16 people, mostly children, then you might as well stay silent.

Aaaah...the good-old whats good for one group is not good for another. So your a taliban supporter?

I think you're missing something here.

I'm not the one who is trying to get sympathy for the Taliban here.

No, just a mass child murderer.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024113.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024136.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024136.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:A man who went insane due to combat stress, yes.

Ahh, so now you're admitting to knowing the mental state of every member of the Al Queda and the Taliban as well (how else could you make such remarks?). Are you on any travel bans? Should we be concerned?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024138.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024138.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
If he is under the loss of some control due to the damage and stress, then he needs help, and then he can face the crimes better, and deal with his guilt once he realized and can recognize how wrong it was.

In the case of the 1st, he will never be safe amongst people.

as for the second case, they may be able to salvage him.

As for the culture of the Taliban, that is another matter, and we know Al-Q are a terror org.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024157.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024157.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

ShumaGorath wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:A man who went insane due to combat stress, yes.

Nope, But I know pigs like Al Queda and the Taliban ARE murderers and its a massive leap to compare one of our soldiers to them when the evidence flies in the face of it. That much is obvious.

Or do you have proof that every Al Queda and the Taliban is in a constant state of Psychosis?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024158.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024158.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

ShumaGorath wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:A man who went insane due to combat stress, yes.

He will be in jail a very long time. Equating him to Al Qaeda murderers who have no problem cutting off heads of people on tv and setting off bombs in marketplaces and kill girls going to school is...misplaced and beneath the seriousness of the topic. If you really believe there is an equivolency than wow, just wow.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024166.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Frazzled wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:A man who went insane due to combat stress, yes.

Ahh, so now you're admitting to knowing the mental state of every member of the Al Queda and the Taliban as well (how else could you make such remarks?). Are you on any travel bans? Should we be concerned?

Do I think there's equivalency between a dude walking out of his base and killing eight children and eight adults in cold blood than casually returning to it and someone going out and killing reporters or civilians in cold blood then returning to his compound? Yeah. Because there is. You can wave your little flag all you want, but in the end all you've done is proven that you picked a side. That you don't really give a gak so long as your side is the one that's winning. Whether that conflict is moral or militaristic there's just no way that your boys could ever be "bad". Just "misguided" or "disturbed". Hell, they may even be "crazy". "Evil" and "murderous" are only things you can let the enemy be though.

Edit - MT11]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024176.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024176.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

"Evil" and "murderous" are only things you can let the enemy be though.

Then what do you believe? You must hate life then. What is there to gain by supporting the people who kill your countrymen (and not just soldiers)?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024188.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024188.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan Incidentally can US soldiers face the death penalty?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024197.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024197.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

"Evil" and "murderous" are only things you can let the enemy be though.

Then what do you believe? You must hate life then. What is there to gain by supporting the people who kill your countrymen (and not just soldiers)?

Rule #1 Violation]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024200.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
I don't think he can face the death penalty without his mental state being cleared again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024203.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:Obviously it was a bad thing. The difficulty arises when you bring insanity into it, as soldiers do not just go out and randomly shoot everyone up.

I don't think he can face the death penalty without his mental state being cleared again.

They do just go out and shoot people up sometimes. This is far from the first event of this kind to occur in this or any war. Part of the conditioning of soldiers and the stressful environments they're in can give them the ability to justify killing innocents, sometimes en masse. Most militaries are guilty of it at some point, it's hard to really say that the entire Japanese or German militaries were evil in world war two, but they both committed horrific atrocities. The united states and the UK engaged in protracted campaigns targeting purely civilian locations. The nature of conflict isn't cut and dry and easy. Sometimes plainly bad people are wearing the uniform and do it for the same reason as they might have done in in a gang or by themselves as civilians.

Does military justice recognize mental issues like civilian courts do?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024219.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024219.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

They do just go out and shoot people up sometimes.

How often though in recent times? I'm not willing to dump one of our soldiers in the middle of a rabble without at least doing proper checks.

Does military justice recognize mental issues like civilian courts do?

No idea. But they probably should, considering how its much more likely to develop something like that in a combat zone. Shellshock was a terrible thing a long time ago.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024227.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024227.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024233.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024233.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

How often though in recent times? I'm not willing to dump one of our soldiers in the middle of a rabble without at least doing proper checks.

Fairly often. We've been pushing pretty hard to keep troop levels high in the theater. Nothing recently of this calibur that's been reported on, but in the last 365 days there have been a couple of incidents similar to this.

No idea. But they probably should, considering how its much more likely to develop something like that in a combat zone. Shellshock was a terrible thing a long time ago.

The military has been historically much slower than civilian courts to recognize things like mental illness.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024234.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024234.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:
I don't think he can face the death penalty without his mental state being cleared again.

And even then it's doubtful he'll be executed.

I believe the most recent execution actually carried out from a court martial (in the US at least) was in 1964.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024238.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024238.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan UK. That to me looks like a prime case of a front where mental illness could take hold. Especially with the Japanese-controlled camps.

The military has been historically much slower than civilian courts to recognize things like mental illness.

Part of the reason why the military needs to step up its care for its troops.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024243.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024243.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

shasolenzabi wrote:Now, why not wait until the man is screened and evaluated for his actual mental status, then we can proceed from there. No one is disputing his crime. Just his state of mental health to see why he did it. IF he is sane, and there is no result from his brain damage, then we do have a cold blooded killer, possibly a psychotic, cold, calculating and dangerous.

If he is under the loss of some control due to the damage and stress, then he needs help, and then he can face the crimes better, and deal with his guilt once he realized and can recognize how wrong it was.

In the case of the 1st, he will never be safe amongst people.

as for the second case, they may be able to salvage him.

Even if it is the second case, I can in no way see how someone who has committed an atrocity such as this can possibly be let back into society.

He shot a three-year-old girl in the head and set her body on fire. How can you possibly discuss ever letting him out of either jail or a mental insititute?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024248.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024248.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
1) Life in prison
2) Life in a mental institution (most likely tbh)
3) Execution (least likely)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024254.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024254.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:Hes not getting out. That much is clear. He is either getting:

1) Life in prison
2) Life in a mental institution (most likely tbh)
3) Execution (least likely)

Or a couple of years house arrest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024260.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024260.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:
Nope, But I know pigs like Al Queda and the Taliban ARE murderers and its a massive leap to compare one of our soldiers to them when the evidence flies in the face of it. That much is obvious.

Or do you have proof that every Al Queda and the Taliban is in a constant state of Psychosis?

Suffering from psychosis now justifies killing?

That's a new one.

I guess you could claim the soldier in question was guilty only of manslaughter because psychosis prevented him from establishing any sort of intention, but that's a really, really difficult argument to make.

Honestly, this whole thread seems an awful lot like a thinly veiled attempt at solidifying an "us" versus "them" mentality. If you believe the soldier committed murder, then he is comparable to others who have committed murder; whose side any given murderer happens to be on is irrelevant.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024404.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024862.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4024862.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Surely they are equal. One life is one life?

Why is there such a distinction? Perhaps it's just me, but I cannot see where and how they are different.

I've worked with people who can deal with dead adults all day long, but dead children just feth them over. And it's NOT just those who have children. Why? I don't see a difference. Dead is dead. No matter the age.

I doubt he'll be executed, and even less that he would be handed over to the local (lack of) authority. It's yet another clusterfeth in a cluster of clusterfeths.

As for the issue of "embedded" journalists ...

I prefer them embedded into concrete and then inhumed deep down. Perhaps then, they can be proper foundations for society (no, I don't have any particular liking for the reptiles of the press) - and deep, deep down they really are nice people.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4025267.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4025267.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Amaya wrote:The soldier should be summarily executed. Preferably by hanging in view of American soldiers and/or Afghanis. Anything short of execution will be seen as tolerance for his actions by Arab nations.

He's an American soldier, and he should stand trial for his crimes, assuming he is deemed fit to do so. We are a nation of laws and we don't throw our citizens under the bus to appease foreign countries. We trained and sent him to that country to wage war on our behalf and it's our duty to take care of him, whether it be mentally or judicially. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4025291.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4025291.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

No. That may work in comic book land but not in the real world. This isn't the Romans. If it were this wouldn't be an issue in the first place, the entire country would have been razed and salted by now.

Romans...putting the 'H' in Hardcore. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4025353.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4025353.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

chromedog wrote:Precisely how is killing a child WORSE than killing an adult?

Surely they are equal. One life is one life?

Why is there such a distinction? Perhaps it's just me, but I cannot see where and how they are different.

I've worked with people who can deal with dead adults all day long, but dead children just feth them over. And it's NOT just those who have children. Why? I don't see a difference. Dead is dead. No matter the age.

I doubt he'll be executed, and even less that he would be handed over to the local (lack of) authority. It's yet another clusterfeth in a cluster of clusterfeths.

As for the issue of "embedded" journalists ...

I prefer them embedded into concrete and then inhumed deep down. Perhaps then, they can be proper foundations for society (no, I don't have any particular liking for the reptiles of the press) - and deep, deep down they really are nice people.

You see no difference between those who can fight back and those who cant? Straining your words a bit here but by this logic theres no difference between sex with a child and sex with an adult right? They're all human. Honestly I've never met someone that can't see a distinction between killing a child and killing an adult. Just bizarre]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4025440.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4025440.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Ouze wrote:

Amaya wrote:The soldier should be summarily executed. Preferably by hanging in view of American soldiers and/or Afghanis. Anything short of execution will be seen as tolerance for his actions by Arab nations.

Firing squad WOULD take care of him.

Child serial killer is sort of the tipping point for me...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027404.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027404.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Hes not getting out. That much is clear. He is either getting:

1) Life in prison
2) Life in a mental institution (most likely tbh)
3) Execution (least likely)

Or a couple of years house arrest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley

Thinks were different then. Also My Lai was a different scale of atrocity in a different scale of conflict. This isn't an endorsement of the light treatment, just an understanding of it. The same sort of whitewash is impossible now. In vietnam the annihilation of a village was seen as 'everyday' and there wasnt the provision for a story to go 'viral' in quite the same way.
Also Calley led a platoon scaled atrocity, so it was the US forces who committed the act, hence the whitewash. This recent incident was clearly one soldier going postal, so the easiest way for the US to doistance itself from the massacre is not by a cover up but by disowning the actions and seeing this soldier visibly punished after an open trial.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027499.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027499.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
The similar forum topic that I had stated above was shut down yesterday for being turned into a full blown war over race and religion , I hope the topic does not follow down the same path.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027503.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027503.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Frazzled wrote:

No. That may work in comic book land but not in the real world. This isn't the Romans. If it were this wouldn't be an issue in the first place, the entire country would have been razed and salted by now.

Romans...putting the 'H' in Hardcore.

I would put it as: Romans.....getting to the crux of the matter.

After the locals see their buddies screaming themselves to death over four days while strung up, most will see the advantage behind getting in with the Pax Romana.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027519.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027519.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Orlanth wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

No. That may work in comic book land but not in the real world. This isn't the Romans. If it were this wouldn't be an issue in the first place, the entire country would have been razed and salted by now.

Romans...putting the 'H' in Hardcore.

I bow to your wisdom.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027526.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027526.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

You're right in a sense, both are equally bad in that they equate to the loss of a human life.

But, I think it is somewhat worse for children as they haven't had the opportunity to live any kind of life or had any kind of experiences that make life worth living. So, why people are generally more perturbed that a young child dies rather than an old man on his deathbed. And, of course as someone mentioned above it is the fact that they are defenceless and society should protect them. Perhaps also, it is a natural instinct, it wouldn't be a very good evolutionary method if a parent did not hold the life of its child in the highest possible regard. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027537.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027634.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027634.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Kilkrazy wrote:Adults are supposed to protect children, not kill them.

Or Tase them?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027782.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027782.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

AustonT wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Adults are supposed to protect children, not kill them.

Or Tase them?

Don't tase them, bro. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027829.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4027829.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Orlanth wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:Hes not getting out. That much is clear. He is either getting:

1) Life in prison
2) Life in a mental institution (most likely tbh)
3) Execution (least likely)

Or a couple of years house arrest.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Calley

Good point, and I accept it. Though in this case the chance of him receiving the death penalty is slim to none.

EDIT: And given that anything short of a death sentence would be seen as lenient by the Afghani populace (and personally myself) this is still going to impact relations deeply.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4028048.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4028048.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
As for the poster who said this made the soldier a serial killer? Serial Killers stalk their victims, and they do their killings one at a time.

This soldier on a spree was a what is labelled a Mas Murder as he slaughtered 16 or 17 people? More akin to the nutters who went nuts at colleges or that famous McDonald's Mass killer back in the 1980's or was it the 1990's. But more along those examples.

In the end, not good or cool.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4028296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4028296.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Kilkrazy wrote:Adults are supposed to protect children, not kill them.

BINGO

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AustonT wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Adults are supposed to protect children, not kill them.

Or Tase them?

wo I draw the line at tasing. How else are you going to get the buggers to pull the coal carts? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4028568.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4028568.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Tasing the youth is better than killing them, admittedly - but you could at least put them DOWN the mines, instead of just pulling the carts (we're not allowed to subject animals to those gas levels anymore - so kids will have to do).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4029597.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4029597.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4029689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4029689.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

So I'm a bad adult if I wish to see the local offspring as fertiliser?

What age group are you talking about when you say offspring?

Some weird stuff going on at the killers base, Fort Lewis-McCord.

A Col. from there was arrested Tuesday for felony threats and harassment against his estranged wife, girlfriend, and boss.

One soldier murdered his wife and stuffed her body into a storage crate after his return from a third deployment in Iraq.

Another allegedly set his wife on fire.

Another was convicted of waterboarding his own young daughter for failing to know her ABCs. Another waterboarded his son because he wet the bed.

The Afghan kill team that perpetrated a three-month murder spree against innocent Afghan civilians came from Lewis-McChord.

The former Army private who shot and killed a National Park Service ranger at Mount Rainier National Park on New Year’s Day was from Lewis-McChord.

Suicides of soldiers from that base totaled 12 in 2011—a base record.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4029702.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4029702.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
We have to understand that combat operations can severly traumatize people and produce various bad reactions.

It does not mean they should be let off. It means we have to help them deal with the stress before it boils over.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4029765.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4029765.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

AustonT wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Adults are supposed to protect children, not kill them.

Or Tase them?

wo I draw the line at tasing. How else are you going to get the buggers to pull the coal carts?
was referencing this...which I'm pretty sure I would Taser a 5'5" 200 lbs 9 year old too...thats a baby steer.
http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2012/03/12/9-year-old-tasered.html]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4030245.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4030245.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

And while a public hanging is overly dramatic, this soldier should be executed. Anything less is lenient.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4030756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4030756.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

DutchKillsRambo wrote:
You see no difference between those who can fight back and those who cant? Straining your words a bit here but by this logic theres no difference between sex with a child and sex with an adult right? They're all human. Honestly I've never met someone that can't see a distinction between killing a child and killing an adult. Just bizarre

I don't think there is a meaningful distinction either.

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Amaya wrote:I've heard a lot of 200+lbers younger than 10, but 5'5" to 5'8" as well? That kid is a monster for his age.

Yeah, that means he's only slightly shorter than me, and noticeably heavier.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4030806.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4030806.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Lone Cat wrote:are those rogue soldiers mercs?

It's 1 rogue soldier.
He is clearly stated as a US soldier...
It even says in the title...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4032112.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4032112.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Amaya wrote:I've heard a lot of 200+lbers younger than 10, but 5'5" to 5'8" as well? That kid is a monster for his age.
And while a public hanging is overly dramatic, this soldier should be executed. Anything less is lenient.

And why exactly are you just deciding he should be executed without trial or mental evaluation? As was said above, WE (as a part of this country you must also take responsibility here) WE sent him in to that country, into harms way, and into combat the likes of which you and I are not prepared for. We maintain the responsibility for the consicuences of our actions and his. If his mind has been destroyed because of our actions we are at no less fault than he for we elected the government that sent him there, we paid the taxes for his training weapons and equipment, and we told him to go into a combat situation to shoot kill and die on our behalf. We therefor have a duty to him as he had a duty to us, if by our actions he is no longer mentally functional then we have a responsibility to set things right for his sake and his family's. As an american I see no reason to value the lives of foreign nationals (and in all likely-hood hostile combatants) over the lives and lively-hoods of my countrymen.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4033689.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4033689.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Amaya wrote:I've heard a lot of 200+lbers younger than 10, but 5'5" to 5'8" as well? That kid is a monster for his age.

And while a public hanging is overly dramatic, this soldier should be executed. Anything less is lenient.

Put him through *debriefing* (basically interrogation), get the shrinks to look at him and then make a decision based on that. Also the fact this guy actually did go through iraq, AND had a documented BREAKDOWN, which SENIOR OFFICERS DISCOUNTED prior to the incident.

First of all, military inquiry. look at why the incident happened. Give the families affected a pension, or adequate compensation. boot the soldier out of the military and keep an eye on him (preferably a no-gun order, and check-in to police every 3 days).

Execution for someone giving into stress or PTSD would be pretty much like shooting vietnam veterans, and I can pretty much guarentee that the soldier, whilst not getting off scot-free would most definately not be executed. It's inappropriate, and quite simply as heck barbaric almost as the taliban.

Yes, the soldier should be punished, but a lethal punishment would actually be counter-productive, both lowering morale even more for the soldiers in the area, and making them even more stressed about this situation occurring which may lead to more incidents of *pychological rampages*.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4033706.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4033706.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

bibblles wrote: As an american I see no reason to value the lives of foreign nationals (and in all likely-hood hostile combatants) over the lives and lively-hoods of my countrymen.

And that is why everyone loves the good old USA. I can practically smell the xenophobia in your post... ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4033983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4033983.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
All in all it is just a very very bad situation that needs to be handled very delicately. It still may not help even than, but we have to do what we can to maintain both vigilance and peace at the same time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034138.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034138.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Ahtman wrote:Apparently they flew the soldier out in the middle of the night to a detention center in Kuwait and people of Afghanistan are none to pleased. It was probably the right thing to do, but it still won't sit well. At this point I'm more concerned with the guys still in country becuase the likelihood of some kind of attack has increased exponentially. The people have a right to be outraged and I worry that ones that wouldn't normally have gone after our guys might end up casualties as well becuase they get swept up in hysteria and grief.

All in all it is just a very very bad situation that needs to be handled very delicately. It still may not help even than, but we have to do what we can to maintain both vigilance and peace at the same time.

Afghanistan is now saying troops should stay at major bases. I have a better idea. Bugout!
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034147.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034147.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
It's pretty clear that Afghanistan is a lost cause. Recent events like this and the Koran burning have made it all a lot worse.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034196.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034196.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034199.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034199.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Kilkrazy wrote:I agree.

It's pretty clear that Afghanistan is a lost cause. Recent events like this and the Koran burning have made it all a lot worse.

Not lost. We wacked Bin Laden and wrecked Al Qaeda. Thats what we went threre to do. Nation building wasn't in the cards and thats where we went wrong. Time to go. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034200.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan IMO.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034207.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034207.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Kilkrazy wrote:Should have gone eight years ago IMO.

Should never had set foot in it in the first place, at least in the way that you did.

You should have gone in, whack the Taliban like you did at first, with SF soldiers and air power and leave as soon at it was clear the Al Quaeda (and Bin Laden) had left the country.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034563.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034563.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

PhantomViper wrote:

bibblles wrote: As an american I see no reason to value the lives of foreign nationals (and in all likely-hood hostile combatants) over the lives and lively-hoods of my countrymen.

And that is why everyone loves the good old USA. I can practically smell the xenophobia in your post...

Your using one post and throwing that as an insult at the whole of the "good old USA"... isnt that pretty much pot calling kettle black on a laughably obvious scale?

Also, I dont think its xenophobic. Its normal human behaviour surely? If someone has to die, better someone you dont know, someone from another nation/tribe/religion/street/family than somebody you actually do have a common link to.

So, wasnt your post actually the xenophobic one?!

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PhantomViper wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Should have gone eight years ago IMO.

Should never had set foot in it in the first place, at least in the way that you did.

You should have gone in, whack the Taliban like you did at first, with SF soldiers and air power and leave as soon at it was clear the Al Quaeda (and Bin Laden) had left the country.

Kilkrazy went to Afghanistan?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034604.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4034604.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

PhantomViper wrote:

bibblles wrote: As an american I see no reason to value the lives of foreign nationals (and in all likely-hood hostile combatants) over the lives and lively-hoods of my countrymen.

And that is why everyone loves the good old USA. I can practically smell the xenophobia in your post...

When it comes down to me and my mates and everyone else. Everyone else dies first. That's not to say that every non allied person's life is forfeit, but where the rubber meets the road the decision is simple. My battle buddy comes first, then my squad, then my platoon, then my company, then the rest of the maneuver unit, then everyone else, then the LT. If the fecal matter hits the rotary impeller shoot in ascending order. I doubt that anyone who has not been shot at really understands how simple decision making becomes, it's not racial, it's not xenophobic, it's primal. If you get stuck there I'd imagine it would be very easy to devalue human life.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4035990.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4035990.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Taliban Solider kills US Soliders = Terrorist.

Enough said really. When the US is involved, its reported as an 'accident' (A-10 Killing UK Troops) or a Tragic event (like urinating on Qu'oran or this). But when someone else does it to the US its reported as a Terrorist attack.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4036046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4036046.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Doctadeth wrote:The thing is, that afganistan is still buggered if the USA leave. The security forces are a laugh, and pretty much as soon as the US forces go, corruption and apathy will pretty much reign supreme and the Taliban occupation will reoccur pretty much as a given.

The problem with Afghanistan is the people themselves. Even Churchill himself was utterly repulsed when he served there near the turn of the 20th century, describing their society as inanely backwards and insular and devaluing the lives of women to the point that animals like cattle were treated with more respect.
Their society is happy to remain ignorant of change and stuck in a barbaric culture of oppression & violence, so I say round-up every young girl who wants out, pull out all our troops and then glass the whole place!

I have no respect or sympathy for a society that treats women like they're less than worthless baby-boy-pooping machines. But then being a girl myself, my opinions might be a wee bit biased!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4036355.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4036355.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4036375.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4036375.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Experiment 626 wrote: Even Churchill himself was utterly repulsed when he served there near the turn of the 20th century, describing their society as inanely backwards and insular and devaluing the lives of women to the point that animals like cattle were treated with more respect.

Churchill wasn't exactly noted for his starry eyed acceptance of foreign culture.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4036496.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4036496.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:
bibblles wrote: As an american I see no reason to value the lives of foreign nationals (and in all likely-hood hostile combatants) over the lives and lively-hoods of my countrymen.

And that is why everyone loves the good old USA. I can practically smell the xenophobia in your post...

More like Jingoism...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4036731.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4036731.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Amaya wrote:You realize that you just described nearly every non Western nation and pretty much the entire world prior to the 19th century?

Ya know what non western countries do? and pretty much the entire world prior to the 19th century?

They would publicly EXECUTE people without TRIALS or psych evaluations without understanding.

Ya know, like what you've been saying we should do to this soldier.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4037770.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4037770.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

AustonT wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
bibblles wrote: As an american I see no reason to value the lives of foreign nationals (and in all likely-hood hostile combatants) over the lives and lively-hoods of my countrymen.

And that is why everyone loves the good old USA. I can practically smell the xenophobia in your post...

Exactly, that is just normal human nature at work.

The problem is that the USA spouts out this "freedom and democracy for all, every person is created equal" nonsense and when these types of situations happen and they naturally treat their own people like 1st class humans and the rest of the world like less valued human beings, it kind of pisses of the rest of the world and ends up creating more ill will towards you (you as a nation, not you as a person).

I'm not saying that the USA are better or worst than every other nation in the world, they are worst than some but better than the vast majority, but they really should get of their moral high horse if they are to keep doing stuff like this.

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bibblles wrote:
Amaya wrote:You realize that you just described nearly every non Western nation and pretty much the entire world prior to the 19th century?

Ya know what non western countries do? and pretty much the entire world prior to the 19th century?

They would publicly EXECUTE people without TRIALS or psych evaluations without understanding.

Ya know, like what you've been saying we should do to this soldier.

If he had done this in the USA to american citizens, what would happen to him?

I'm guessing that since this was a crime done by someone wearing a uniform it would be a Federal crime? You don't have the death penalty at the federal level any more do you?

So at the very least he would be sentenced to several life sentences without parole. I highly doubt that this will be the case.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4037978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4037978.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

The soldier was one of 4,000 soldiers in the 3rd (Stryker) Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division stationed at Lewis-McChord in Washington state. The base's medical center is being investigated for allegedly down-grading post traumatic stress diagnoses to other mental illnesses that do not prevent deployment or qualify soldiers for disability payments.

Shaving money and making false reports/depositions and this case may just blow the doors off of this related issue. Government malfeasance I smell.

From: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/military-sources-name-army-sergeant-suspected-afghanistan-massacre-224453357.html]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4040429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4040429.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4041208.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4041208.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Melissia wrote:Atually... that's nothing new under the sun for veteran's care.

Exactly, I went 26yrs w/o knowing what my med records were like, and did more damage to myself than what the records showed, but the records indicated to me that I could have avoided it all if I had known in advance. Now I am waiting to hear a good result for my own compensation case. It may be a pretty hefty back-log lump sum and then monthlies, but it just goes to show how they attempt to skimp on the soldiers, but lo and behold how much is lavished upon the politicians that send soldiers abroad!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4041221.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4041221.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
"Prior to his deployment to Afghanistan, the soldier had lost part of a foot in Iraq and suffered a traumatic brain injury, according to his lawyer, John Henry Browne. "

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/16/world/asia/afghanistan-shooting-soldier/index.html?hpt=wo_c2

Definitely seems to be a failure of the military to diagnose the soldier... this kind of thing can drastically change someone's personality.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042074.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

People calling for this soldier to be executed just to satisfy the Afghan public disgust me. What if this guy had a serious mental condition that led him to do this? And let's face it, it seems fairly likely that he wasn't in his right mind.

To execute this soldier would be no better than the execution of deserters in the Great War because they were branded cowards due to the the fact that PTSD was not understood. No, actually it would be worse than that, because even in the modern light of knowing people can have PTSD and other mental breakdowns there are those still happy to execute him.

The situation is a fething great mess. But executing a sick man to placate the mob does not sit well with me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042156.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042156.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Howard A Treesong wrote:What if this guy had a serious mental condition that led him to do this?

He suffered a brain injury.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042162.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042162.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Melissia wrote:

Howard A Treesong wrote:What if this guy had a serious mental condition that led him to do this?

He suffered a brain injury.

Yes, but you don't know if that is related to what he did until there's a full assessment. Obviously it's likely but you have to wait for the facts to come out.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042179.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042179.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042195.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042195.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042203.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042250.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042250.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042325.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4042325.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Meanwhile we have senators with paychecks and pensions most folks would droll over with great medial benefits, and it is all on the taxpayers backs that this form of reversed socialism is foisted upon.

Soldiers get scraps and ditched

Senators get Fat checks, fat pensions, awesome medical for virtually free, and retire in luxury??? WTF is wrong with this picture?

And I agree, he never should have been redeployed and does need an evaluation as to the state of his mental health.

I prefer to not feed the mob over there with a killing. The impression I get is that they are a very kill krazy society after all of the other things in their history.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4043723.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4043723.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

P.S

Do not harshly criticize if i'm mistaken, I don't pay too much attention to American politics. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4049061.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4049061.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Shadowbrand wrote:This story makes me feel very depressed, I didn't know the soldier, or better yet the people he guns down but it makes me sad. And it makes me have to ask. "Why the hell are we in Afghanistan still?" Wasn't one of Obama's biggest promises when he entered office to pull out?

P.S

Do not harshly criticize if i'm mistaken, I don't pay too much attention to American politics.

He wanted to pull out of Iraq, but still supported a presence in Afghanistan.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4049087.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4049087.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
When convincted capital punishment is surely not too harsh for this world. His eternity in hell seems much more fitting, however. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051255.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051255.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
If found to have snapped and is messed up due to that head injury, he will be locked away where he will be under observation and given medicine to deal with it.

Read about Afghan history more, Peace has not been there for a very long, long time.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051268.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051268.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

shasolenzabi wrote: Man is entitled to a Court Martial and a chance for defense in said court as the US is a land of laws, not Mob Rule.

Good one. Ever heard of guantanamo bay detainment camp?

shasolenzabi wrote: Read about Afghan history more, Peace has not been there for a very long, long time.

What does this have to do with handing him over to the Afghan authorities for trial? He already confessed anyway.
Maybe you should try reading about US run prisons that are illegal under international law.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051338.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051338.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Barksdale wrote:. It may have even helped to restart the peacetalks.

Barksdale, those are your words. Peacetalks may or may have not been affected by his crime.

Ah, as for Gauntanamo, he was taken to a base in Kansas for holding. Gauntanamo was a place to hold hostiles as they were classed off actual US soil. Should they have sat about with no legal counsel for as long as they had? No, even a "enemy combatant" is supposed to have been granted some sort of rights. I am well aware that our Gov't has not been angelic and has even violated our own Constitution, but that does not mean we should continue sliding into that abyss, folks do speak out and do let them know they will not get their jobs back if they keep screwing around.

But now I ask, what do you think would happen to him if handed over to the mob? He would never even make it to the gallows, likely torn to little pieces by the mob, a very harsh and scary animal a mob is, No Justice involved in the mob rule, just vengeance and further blood shed for it's own sake. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051354.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051354.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
The crime was committed on Afghan soil and so Afghan justice should apply.

I guess we can agree to disagree.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051398.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051398.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan articlehttp://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/20/us/bales-court-martial-could-be-lengthy.html?_r=1

He is in Ft. Leavenworth,,,aka Army Prison. When not speaking with lawyers, he will be helping turn boulders in pebbles with a hammer like most of the detained at Leavenworth.

Yes, if they could have found a place to try him in Afghanistan where he would get a fair trial then yes, but even here, some killers have to be tried in other states as the state they committed the crime in the folks are too emotionally charged up to allow for a fair trial.

We likely are to disagree with so much

I did find a conession online from another year, another soldier regarding a thrill kill over there.

And the news has a totally different situation from Afghanistan on top of the massacre.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051439.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051439.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Barksdale wrote:This nutjob should just be handed over to the Afghan authorities. Afterall, the murders did take place on Afghan soil. The gesture would probably go a long way. It may have even helped to restart the peacetalks.

When convincted capital punishment is surely not too harsh for this world. His eternity in hell seems much more fitting, however.

No way. Crazy or not, he's our crazy. I don't know what brand of kangaroo court justice you serve up in your country, but here we have something called the rule of law.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Barksdale wrote:Again, he already confessed...

The crime was committed on Afghan soil and so Afghan justice should apply.

I guess we can agree to disagree.

No. You're wrong and have no conception of due process. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051767.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051767.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051821.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051821.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Albatross wrote:Frazzled, do you have to be so xenophobic? It's really unbecoming.

I didn't start it. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051828.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051828.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Frazzled wrote:
No way. Crazy or not, he's our crazy. I don't know what brand of kangaroo court justice you serve up in your country, but here we have something called the rule of law.

Hey I take offence to that.

Though if you could ensure that there would be a fair trial (and this is enough of a high profile case where it might be possible) then a trial inside Afghanistan shouldn't have been out of the question. If a US citizen commits a crime in a foreign country, why shouldn't they be held accountable to the law of that land?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051864.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

You do know the military knew he was unstable due to his brain injury/homelife and that they did not provide the proper care and treatment right? If you've done any Psychology...thats a very bad sign.

then a trial inside Afghanistan shouldn't have been out of the question.

Would it be a fair trial though?...I don't think so. I'd rather he get tried in the UK, Germany or France rather than Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan.

Frazzled, do you have to be so xenophobic? It's really unbecoming.

He is right though. Until the Afghans prove they can run a fair trial they shouldn't be allowed to.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051877.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051877.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan Ft. Leavenworth. If found guilty, unless he can get across the idea of diminished capacity or similar he faces the Death Penalty for his crimes based on UCMJ.

Other news seems to have it flt that those in Afghanistan don't think he was alone in his crime. I do wonder if they will have any witnesses from the local area flown in to give testimony?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051888.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

shasolenzabi wrote:While that may be true for civilians, he is US property based on the documents you sign when you join up. That also makes him subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Hence why he is now locked away at Ft. Leavenworth.

And that means he is only accountable to US law? Bollocks. If a US soldier snuck out of a base in Australia and shot up men, women and children in the dead of night you can be damn sure Australians would be up in arms if he wasn't being tried by an Australian court, and to hell with whether the US thinks out court system might be unfair.

If found guilty, unless he can get across the idea of diminished capacity or similar he faces the Death Penalty for his crimes based on UCMJ.

The death penalty hasn't been inflicted since the 1960's.

Other news seems to have it flt that those in Afghanistan don't think he was alone in his crime. I do wonder if they will have any witnesses from the local area flown in to give testimony?

The threat (perceived or not) of reprisal is probably far too high for most villagers to consider testifying. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051906.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051906.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
No way. Crazy or not, he's our crazy. I don't know what brand of kangaroo court justice you serve up in your country, but here we have something called the rule of law.

On its face it would not have been a fair trial.
We bailed from Iraq when Iraq wouldn't sign the status of forces agreement keepoing US troops out of Iraqi courts. We should take the opportunity and do the same here.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

And that means he is only accountable to US law?

Yes. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051915.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051915.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan HH, I have seen US Troops taken back to the US for Military Trial, from our ally of Germany! It is not US law he faces but Military Law, and yes, they do still have the Death Penalty in the Military.

UCMJ is far harsher than US Civilian Law.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051932.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051932.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Frazzled wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
No way. Crazy or not, he's our crazy. I don't know what brand of kangaroo court justice you serve up in your country, but here we have something called the rule of law.

Hey I take offence to that.

Though if you could ensure that there would be a fair trial (and this is enough of a high profile case where it might be possible) then a trial inside Afghanistan shouldn't have been out of the question. If a US citizen commits a crime in a foreign country, why shouldn't they be held accountable to the law of that land?

If a US citizen commits a crime in a foreign country, why shouldn't they be held accountable to the law of that land?

And that means he is only accountable to US law?

Yes.

No, it does not. This was a rhetorical question. Exactly what planet are you on?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

shasolenzabi wrote:HH, I have seen US Troops taken back to the US for Military Trial, from our ally of Germany!

I would assume that he was not being put on trial for killing dozens of German civilians.

It is not US law he faces but Military Law, and yes, they do still have the Death Penalty in the Military.

UCMJ is far harsher than US Civilian Law.

I don't doubt it. But the fact is that the death penalty hasn't been inflicted for over 50 years.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051947.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4051947.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Hazardous Harry wrote:

The death penalty hasn't been inflicted since the 1960's.

There are however 6 guys currently on death row, and one of them was authorized to be executed by Bush in 2008 although the court issued a stay for further appeals. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4052049.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4052049.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4052100.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4052100.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054146.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054146.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Yes, the man who killed those people admitted to killing those civilians but he does deserve a fair trial. I am not saying let him walk. I would like to see him be put on trial and spend 20 or so years at a mental clinic that can accommodate him.

I have seen PTSD first hand (my mother who broke her back in Afghanistan from enemy arty, a cousin with a severe case and arguably a minor case with me). It does take its toll and like it says in the title is traumatic.

Also a side note... I know he admitted to doing it but there were witnesses stating there were more than shooter. One not wearing a uniform... If I heard that correctly on CNN. It seems the Afghans just threw out that piece of information... Also a AFGHAN village with no weapons? I have never been but I would bet someone did have a weapon close by. Maybe with ties to the Taliban who have killed civilians before?

I am in no way stating what happened but in a FAIR trial things like this may come up. In a Afghan trial being judged by a country who have a history of hating foreigners no matter what comes up I feel he will not have a fair trial. It was a horrible thing regardless what happens and all I want to see is justice done right. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054430.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054430.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

usmcmidn wrote:Handed over to Afghan authorities? So they can torture him and eventually murder him with out even putting him on trial? And when this happens they blame it on the militants? Pass on that one...

I see no problem with that. Join the military, and do something stupid, you should be treated as though you joined the military and did something stupid.

Which is to say, do something that makes its politically expedient to hand you over to foreign authorities, then you run that risk.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054505.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054505.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

dogma wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:Handed over to Afghan authorities? So they can torture him and eventually murder him with out even putting him on trial? And when this happens they blame it on the militants? Pass on that one...

Respectfully I no longer want to be a part of this thread. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054629.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

dogma wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:Handed over to Afghan authorities? So they can torture him and eventually murder him with out even putting him on trial? And when this happens they blame it on the militants? Pass on that one...

He's in Leavenworth which is exactly what happens when you join the military and do something stupid. So: check.
Remember those guys that got tried in absentia by Italy? If we wouldn't turn our troops over to a much more stable long term ally like Italy in what world would it be politically expedient to hand them over to the Afgans? The damage is done in country the only harm politically that could be had would be here in the states to the detriment of whoever decoded to hand over US troops to the Afgan "legal" system.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054639.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054639.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054663.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054663.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Albatross wrote:So... The next time an ANA or ANP guy flips and kills a bunch of Americans (or other ISAF troops) he should plead PTSD and the Afghans should refuse to hand him over, correct? Just want to clear that up.

No they get gunned down in the streets, what part of this aren't we getting?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054669.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054669.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Unstable my a

. This guy is just a cold blooded murderer. Professional trained soldiers do not go and massacre 16 civilians. There was much more going on in this losers life. He wasn't unstable at all. Just upset at being 0 for life. I guess this says alot about the training and screening process in the United States military...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-soldier-alleged-to-have-massacred-afghans-had-previous-clashes-with-the-law/article2375858/]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054885.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054885.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

AustonT wrote:

Albatross wrote:So... The next time an ANA or ANP guy flips and kills a bunch of Americans (or other ISAF troops) he should plead PTSD and the Afghans should refuse to hand him over, correct? Just want to clear that up.

No they get gunned down in the streets, what part of this aren't we getting?

The part where 'The Land of the Free (tm)' feels it can behave like a colonial power on the one hand, whilst still having a hope in hell of stemming the tide of extremism on the other.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054931.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4054931.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

AustonT wrote:
Remember those guys that got tried in absentia by Italy? If we wouldn't turn our troops over to a much more stable long term ally like Italy in what world would it be politically expedient to hand them over to the Afgans? The damage is done in country the only harm politically that could be had would be here in the states to the detriment of whoever decoded to hand over US troops to the Afgan "legal" system.

The circumstances were very different. Lozano was tried for actions taken in a theater of war against a friendly non-combatant while acting in accordance with the rules of engagement, under mitigating circumstances. Bales basically just went on a shooting spree where the only thing that likely saved him from extradition was the fact that it happened in Afghanistan.

Also, unrelated, but he was apparently convicted of securities fraud prior to enlisting.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4055345.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4055345.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Barksdale wrote:Apparently the guy was pissed for not receiving a promotion to Sergeant first class, was behind on payments for his two houses, had a wife banging someone else in Tacoma, had defrauded a number of people at his former job, was too stupid to finish college, AND had a previous charge for assaulting a former girlfriend.

Unstable my a

And how do you know he wasn't unstable? Are you a professional psychologist? Cause all that looks like is stuff that could add up and cause him to 'crack' mentally with combat stress. What it does say about the military is there laughable health care protocol.

Then again...your forgettable country probably isn't much better.

Albatross wrote:So... The next time an ANA or ANP guy flips and kills a bunch of Americans (or other ISAF troops) he should plead PTSD and the Afghans should refuse to hand him over, correct? Just want to clear that up.

They shouldn't get a say in this...until they prove they will stop their barbarian justice system.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4055660.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4055660.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4055878.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4055878.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
There is a reasonable argument that the US's own system of justice is well equipped to deal with the case fairly and impartially.

I think we can be fairly suspicious of the chance of his getting a fair trial by "western" standards under the Afghan system.

Handing him over would be a matter of political expediency if we hope to remain in Afghanistan and get the population on our side. But I think it has been decided a long time since that the war is a lost cause. This case is just the most recent in a series of "disastrous PR" events. Probably the tide has already set against us and cannot be reversed by handing over one guy.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4055916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4055916.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Albatross wrote:A racist Scotsman? Well, now I've seen everything...

Race has nothing to do with it. Beheading without trial is not Justice. Or are you quite happy to hand him over to such a system?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056035.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056035.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

Albatross wrote:A racist Scotsman? Well, now I've seen everything...

Race has nothing to do with it. Beheading without trial is not Justice. Or are you quite happy to hand him over to such a system?

Dogma apparently is.

It is generally against US policy to subject US soldiers to foreign law. Usually this is settled prior to US forces being there, or alternatively US forces have "settled" the foreign government already.

Now others may criticize - "how would you like it if our troops were not subject to US law in the USA?" an easy answer is:
1. We already have similar via the UN and foreign nationals haveing diplomatic immunity (unless you're PC and in a Mel Gibson movie, i which case it will be revoked after much 1980s style gunplay)

2. Thats why we have the US Navy, to insure foreign soldiers AREN'T on US soil without our permission.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056086.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056086.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
I have never had much sympathy for the PTSD crowd, whenever I read about a soldier who was a fething douchebag its always "wah wah wah Ive got PTSD" and they were always in some chicken gak outfit anyway.

Im basically very very sceptical of it, in that I see PTSD as an easy escape clause, a card to be flashed by all and sundry. You leave the armed forces and get caught doing a bank job or dealing drugs? "Sorry guv, its PTSD" and I'm willing to wager that only about 1/5 of the claims of it are genuine. Whenever I read about a guy with PTSD who kicked the feth out of his wife, he was almost always an arsehole to begin with! And this guy has a long career of basically being a feth up and a loser. He is a classic user of the "PTSD card" and it's a crock of gak.

If you have PTSD you get serious problems, depression, nightmares, insomnia, sometimes you get violent granted, but this bloke went and killed a whole gak load of innocent people for nothing other than a simplistic notion of revenge. He was a dick before he carried this attack out, he was a dick the other few times got arrested, and he remains a dick today.

You have to look at the big picture. Smart soldiers do it all the time. Your just a tool, your just the little guy, and if it makes more sense for the big picture to take some hits yourself, well then thats what you do. I wanted to feth all the "hearts and minds" gak off last tour I did, but you get told that its all about the bigger picture, so you smile and shake hands with the fethers you might well secretly loathe. I didnt even break the local elders jaw when he put his hand on my leg and said I was "young and handsome"

If this guy getting hauled over the coals will mitigate the inevitable gak storm that is heading our troops way over this issue, then feth him. Hand him over and let them do what they will. Its a bigger deterant to psychotic dick heads in the military with no backbone, and it's going to help our cause dragging the Afghans on-side. Thats two wins. Less chance of our soldiers doing stupid gak when they are on tour, and less chance of pissing our Afghan allies off. There is only one loser, and that's Sgt Robert Bales, and I dont much give a feth about him.

So in a nutshell, feth it, this soldier sides with the Afghans.

Oh and while Im on, Frazz and Hyena, you two should grow up a bit. Slagging off the guy who disagree's with you by calling his country names?

I dont agree with everything the bloke has said, but its fething infantile when you reply with basically "I'm from US/UK so I'm better"
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056516.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056516.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

mattyrm wrote:
Oh and while Im on, Frazz and Hyena, you two should grow up a bit. Slagging off the guy who disagree's with you by calling his country names?

I dont agree with everything the bloke has said, but its fething infantile when you reply with basically "I'm from US/UK so I'm better"

What the hell are you talking about. I didn't call his (whoever "his" is) country names, unless its France of course. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056602.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

mattyrm wrote:

I have never had much sympathy for the PTSD crowd, whenever I read about a soldier who was a fething douchebag its always "wah wah wah Ive got PTSD" and they were always in some chicken gak outfit anyway.

Im basically very very sceptical of it, in that I see PTSD as an easy escape clause, a card to be flashed by all and sundry. You leave the armed forces and get caught doing a bank job or dealing drugs? "Sorry guv, its PTSD" and I'm willing to wager that only about 1/5 of the claims of it are genuine. Whenever I read about a guy with PTSD who kicked the feth out of his wife, he was almost always an arsehole to begin with! And this guy has a long career of basically being a feth up and a loser. He is a classic user of the "PTSD card" and it's a crock of gak.

If you have PTSD you get serious problems, depression, nightmares, insomnia, sometimes you get violent granted, but this bloke went and killed a whole gak load of innocent people for nothing other than a simplistic notion of revenge. He was a dick before he carried this attack out, he was a dick the other few times got arrested, and he remains a dick today.

Agree emphatically.

If this guy getting hauled over the coals will mitigate the inevitable gak storm that is heading our troops way over this issue, then feth him. Hand him over and let them do what they will. Its a bigger deterant to psychotic dick heads in the military with no backbone, and it's going to help our cause dragging the Afghans on-side. Thats two wins. Less chance of our soldiers doing stupid gak when they are on tour, and less chance of pissing our Afghan allies off. There is only one loser, and that's Sgt Robert Bales, and I dont much give a feth about him.

So in a nutshell, feth it, this soldier sides with the Afghans.

Disagree, although less emphatically.

I simply can't see throwing any of the occupying troops to the wolves. Perhaps it's rooted in a tit bit of racism or inherent distrust for what passes for justice in that country, but by and large I feel that troops that commit crimes in the region should be tried in their own countries. I have little doubt that SSG fethnozzle will be given the death penalty, if he doesn't I will be vastly disappointed. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers the wild goat feth that was the Saddam Hussein trial, or the execution itself. That occurred in a country with a vastly better developed justice system than Afghanistan. The truth is an occupied country doesn't get to demand justice from its occupiers, that's just how armed conflict works. It's not fair, boo bloody hoo. I'm sure someone here will claim Afghanistan was better off before the unfeeling butchers that occupy the country now showed up. We would have all been better off if the troops that found him shot him in the face, but alas now there has to be a trial. How unfair for Afghanistan that their tragedy cannot be swiftly slaked by blood. I'm sure the right thinking resistance to the unjust and evil occupiers will find some way to seek a resolution.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056654.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Frazzled wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
Oh and while Im on, Frazz and Hyena, you two should grow up a bit. Slagging off the guy who disagree's with you by calling his country names?

I dont agree with everything the bloke has said, but its fething infantile when you reply with basically "I'm from US/UK so I'm better"

What the hell are you talking about. I didn't call his (whoever "his" is) country names, unless its France of course.

Well that was more H for his "your forgettable country probably isn't much better" thing, but you have both been pretty xenophobic.

I mean, I dont give that much of a gak obviously, im pretty robust in a debate myself, I'm just saying.. It hardly adds much to your argument does it? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056657.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056657.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

mattyrm wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
mattyrm wrote:
Oh and while Im on, Frazz and Hyena, you two should grow up a bit. Slagging off the guy who disagree's with you by calling his country names?

I dont agree with everything the bloke has said, but its fething infantile when you reply with basically "I'm from US/UK so I'm better"

What the hell are you talking about. I didn't call his (whoever "his" is) country names, unless its France of course.

I still didn't call anyone's country names. I may think their justice system is counsel of inbred swine motivated only by personal or political interest, but I haven't said that about anyone's country.

OK thats a lie, I've probably said that about the US or maybe Louisiana. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056676.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056676.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

AustonT wrote:
I simply can't see throwing any of the occupying troops to the wolves. Perhaps it's rooted in a tit bit of racism or inherent distrust for what passes for justice in that country, but by and large I feel that troops that commit crimes in the region should be tried in their own countries. I have little doubt that SSG fethnozzle will be given the death penalty, if he doesn't I will be vastly disappointed. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers the wild goat feth that was the Saddam Hussein trial, or the execution itself. That occurred in a country with a vastly better developed justice system than Afghanistan. The truth is an occupied country doesn't get to demand justice from its occupiers, that's just how armed conflict works. It's not fair, boo bloody hoo. I'm sure someone here will claim Afghanistan was better off before the unfeeling butchers that occupy the country now showed up. We would have all been better off if the troops that found him shot him in the face, but alas now there has to be a trial. How unfair for Afghanistan that their tragedy cannot be swiftly slaked by blood. I'm sure the right thinking resistance to the unjust and evil occupiers will find some way to seek a resolution.

I thought you guys were there as "allies" to the current regime and not as an occupying force?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056765.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056765.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

PhantomViper wrote:

AustonT wrote:
I simply can't see throwing any of the occupying troops to the wolves. Perhaps it's rooted in a tit bit of racism or inherent distrust for what passes for justice in that country, but by and large I feel that troops that commit crimes in the region should be tried in their own countries. I have little doubt that SSG fethnozzle will be given the death penalty, if he doesn't I will be vastly disappointed. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers the wild goat feth that was the Saddam Hussein trial, or the execution itself. That occurred in a country with a vastly better developed justice system than Afghanistan. The truth is an occupied country doesn't get to demand justice from its occupiers, that's just how armed conflict works. It's not fair, boo bloody hoo. I'm sure someone here will claim Afghanistan was better off before the unfeeling butchers that occupy the country now showed up. We would have all been better off if the troops that found him shot him in the face, but alas now there has to be a trial. How unfair for Afghanistan that their tragedy cannot be swiftly slaked by blood. I'm sure the right thinking resistance to the unjust and evil occupiers will find some way to seek a resolution.

I thought you guys were there as "allies" to the current regime and not as an occupying force?

It doesn't matter for purposes of this. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056779.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056779.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

PhantomViper wrote:

AustonT wrote:
I simply can't see throwing any of the occupying troops to the wolves. Perhaps it's rooted in a tit bit of racism or inherent distrust for what passes for justice in that country, but by and large I feel that troops that commit crimes in the region should be tried in their own countries. I have little doubt that SSG fethnozzle will be given the death penalty, if he doesn't I will be vastly disappointed. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers the wild goat feth that was the Saddam Hussein trial, or the execution itself. That occurred in a country with a vastly better developed justice system than Afghanistan. The truth is an occupied country doesn't get to demand justice from its occupiers, that's just how armed conflict works. It's not fair, boo bloody hoo. I'm sure someone here will claim Afghanistan was better off before the unfeeling butchers that occupy the country now showed up. We would have all been better off if the troops that found him shot him in the face, but alas now there has to be a trial. How unfair for Afghanistan that their tragedy cannot be swiftly slaked by blood. I'm sure the right thinking resistance to the unjust and evil occupiers will find some way to seek a resolution.

I thought you guys were there as "allies" to the current regime and not as an occupying force?

It's an occupation as clearly defined by international law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations
If you wander your way down to "Nato-led missions" you will find ISAF. "Peacekeeping" is the modern way of saying "Occupation" political correctness at it's zenith.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056848.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056848.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Frazzled wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:
AustonT wrote:
I simply can't see throwing any of the occupying troops to the wolves. Perhaps it's rooted in a tit bit of racism or inherent distrust for what passes for justice in that country, but by and large I feel that troops that commit crimes in the region should be tried in their own countries. I have little doubt that SSG fethnozzle will be given the death penalty, if he doesn't I will be vastly disappointed. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers the wild goat feth that was the Saddam Hussein trial, or the execution itself. That occurred in a country with a vastly better developed justice system than Afghanistan. The truth is an occupied country doesn't get to demand justice from its occupiers, that's just how armed conflict works. It's not fair, boo bloody hoo. I'm sure someone here will claim Afghanistan was better off before the unfeeling butchers that occupy the country now showed up. We would have all been better off if the troops that found him shot him in the face, but alas now there has to be a trial. How unfair for Afghanistan that their tragedy cannot be swiftly slaked by blood. I'm sure the right thinking resistance to the unjust and evil occupiers will find some way to seek a resolution.

I thought you guys were there as "allies" to the current regime and not as an occupying force?

It doesn't matter for purposes of this.

Not from a legal stand point or even from a practical standpoint for that matter, but I think it does from a moral one.

An occupying force will do whatever the hell it wants and the "host" nation is completely disregarded.
A force that is in a country invited by the rulers of that country would have to pay closer attention to the wishes of said rulers.

In other words, if this had happened in Saudi Arabia for example, or even here in PIGS country I pretty much doubt that this would have been handled in the same cavalier way... At least I hope it wouldn't.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056887.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056887.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

AustonT wrote:
It's an occupation as clearly defined by international law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations
If you wander your way down to "Nato-led missions" you will find ISAF. "Peacekeeping" is the modern way of saying "Occupation" political correctness at it's zenith.

Yeah its all just semantics, for example, I like to "invade" everywhere. Pubs, restaurants, parks and open spaces.. Its all an invasion in my book. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056891.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056891.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

PhantomViper wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
PhantomViper wrote:
AustonT wrote:
I simply can't see throwing any of the occupying troops to the wolves. Perhaps it's rooted in a tit bit of racism or inherent distrust for what passes for justice in that country, but by and large I feel that troops that commit crimes in the region should be tried in their own countries. I have little doubt that SSG fethnozzle will be given the death penalty, if he doesn't I will be vastly disappointed. I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers the wild goat feth that was the Saddam Hussein trial, or the execution itself. That occurred in a country with a vastly better developed justice system than Afghanistan. The truth is an occupied country doesn't get to demand justice from its occupiers, that's just how armed conflict works. It's not fair, boo bloody hoo. I'm sure someone here will claim Afghanistan was better off before the unfeeling butchers that occupy the country now showed up. We would have all been better off if the troops that found him shot him in the face, but alas now there has to be a trial. How unfair for Afghanistan that their tragedy cannot be swiftly slaked by blood. I'm sure the right thinking resistance to the unjust and evil occupiers will find some way to seek a resolution.

I thought you guys were there as "allies" to the current regime and not as an occupying force?

It doesn't matter for purposes of this.

Well for the record, they didn't invite us, nor did we go there willingly. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056899.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056899.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

mattyrm wrote:

AustonT wrote:
It's an occupation as clearly defined by international law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_military_occupations
If you wander your way down to "Nato-led missions" you will find ISAF. "Peacekeeping" is the modern way of saying "Occupation" political correctness at it's zenith.

Yeah its all just semantics, for example, I like to "invade" everywhere. Pubs, restaurants, parks and open spaces.. Its all an invasion in my book.

My family accuses me of "occupying" whatever room I'm in, and I do prefer to make a dynamic entry into bars, restaurants, and women undergarments.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056919.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4056919.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057262.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057262.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
No offence to anyone here, but it's things like this that make the Americans terrible at policing actions. They always seem to do an incredibly convincing impression of being completely self-interested and indifferent to the people they're occupying. The fact of the matter is, you can't do that and expect to be successful. Hell, take it from us - we learnt that from fighting YOU!

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057361.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057361.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Albatross wrote:Please note that I'm not saying this idiot should be thrown to the Afghans so they can rip him apart, I'm saying that if he's going to be tried by a military court, then perhaps it would have been more politically expedient to try him in-country, so that it doesn't look quite as much like the Great White Satan is protecting a mass-murderer at the cost of the Afghan people. He murdered children, for feth's sake. Justice must be seen to be done by the people ISAF are occupying, if there is to be any hope of retaining the trust of the Afghans - we all know what happens if they turn away from the Allies en masse: Buildings start going KA-BOOM in western cities again.

No offence to anyone here, but it's things like this that make the Americans terrible at policing actions. They always seem to do an incredibly convincing impression of being completely self-interested and indifferent to the people they're occupying. The fact of the matter is, you can't do that and expect to be successful. Hell, take it from us - we learnt that from fighting YOU!

What democracy is good at "policing" actions? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057371.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057371.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Albatross wrote: They always seem to do an incredibly convincing impression of being completely self-interested and indifferent to the people they're occupying. The fact of the matter is, you can't do that and expect to be successful. Hell, take it from us - we learnt that from fighting YOU!

or rather from fighting the Irish. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057379.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057379.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
EDITED FOR CLARITY

Automatically Appended Next Post:

AustonT wrote:
Albatross wrote: They always seem to do an incredibly convincing impression of being completely self-interested and indifferent to the people they're occupying. The fact of the matter is, you can't do that and expect to be successful. Hell, take it from us - we learnt that from fighting YOU!
or rather from fighting the Irish.

'Pacify' is the correct term.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057399.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Albatross wrote:You're speaking to someone who comes from one. Say what you like about the British record, but it's pretty much standard knowledge that the Brits are good occupiers, comparitively. Just look at the Malaya Emergency - very similar to Vietnam, won. Northern Ireland, ended without a full-blown civil war. The Empire kept the lid on Indian mutinies and managed to control the country right up until the middle of the 20th century. Canada, Australia, the Africans were better-off under British rule than they are now... the list goes on and on. It can be done, the American political establishment and public just don't have the stomach for it.

Ireland disagrees
India disagrees
Pakistan disagrees
The United States disagrees
South Africa disagrees
Egypt disagress
Jordan disagrees
Israel disagrees
Syria disagrees
etc. etc. etc.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057408.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057408.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Frazzled wrote:
What democracy is good at "policing" actions?

Most of them, really. Democracies have as a good a success rate regarding policing actions as any other form of government.

The problem with America getting involved in anything is that many outsiders have a justified aversion to our standard nationalism, and many insiders seem to consider anything that isn't adulation to be tacit to treason.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057432.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057432.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Albatross wrote:You're speaking to someone who comes from one. Say what you like about the British record, but it's pretty much standard knowledge that the Brits are good occupiers, comparatively. Just look at the Malaya Emergency - very similar to Vietnam, won. Northern Ireland, ended without a full-blown civil war. The Empire kept the lid on Indian mutinies and managed to control the country right up until the middle of the 20th century. Canada, Australia... the Africans were better-off under British rule than they are now... the list goes on and on. It can be done, the American political establishment and public just don't have the stomach for it.

What a bunch of baloney.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

dogma wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
What democracy is good at "policing" actions?

Most of them, really. Democracies have as a good a success rate regarding policing actions as any other form of government.

The problem with America getting involved in anything is that many outsiders have a justified aversion to our standard nationalism, and many insiders seem to consider anything that isn't adulation to be tacit to treason.

Isn't it Dogma? Isn't it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057499.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057499.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Genocides off the table this day and age, so its two options, get them to like us or eventually lose. Ive seen how those tribal "honourable" mother fethers act. Frag some innocent kid and every single member of his (ridiculously oversized) bastard family picks an AK up and joins the Taliban.

Edit - I should have added a third option, which is "pack up and feth off home" obviously, but that's a loss and I don't think we want to do that one.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057578.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Please note that I'm not saying this idiot should be thrown to the Afghans so they can rip him apart, I'm saying that if he's going to be tried by a military court, then perhaps it would have been more politically expedient to try him in-country, so that it doesn't look quite as much like the Great White Satan is protecting a mass-murderer at the cost of the Afghan people. He murdered children, for feth's sake. Justice must be seen to be done by the people ISAF are occupying, if there is to be any hope of retaining the trust of the Afghans - we all know what happens if they turn away from the Allies en masse: Buildings start going KA-BOOM in western cities again.

Getting tried in Afghanistan is a pretty good sign that you won't get a fair trial and goes against everything the West stands for.

but you have both been pretty xenophobic.

The guy I referred to is continuously anti-america. I'm not an American, but his views can be turned on himself.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057986.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4057986.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

Please note that I'm not saying this idiot should be thrown to the Afghans so they can rip him apart, I'm saying that if he's going to be tried by a military court, then perhaps it would have been more politically expedient to try him in-country, so that it doesn't look quite as much like the Great White Satan is protecting a mass-murderer at the cost of the Afghan people. He murdered children, for feth's sake. Justice must be seen to be done by the people ISAF are occupying, if there is to be any hope of retaining the trust of the Afghans - we all know what happens if they turn away from the Allies en masse: Buildings start going KA-BOOM in western cities again.

Getting tried in Afghanistan is a pretty good sign that you won't get a fair trial and goes against everything the West stands for.

How would the Americans subjecting the guy to a military tribunal inside Afghanistan go against 'everything the west stands for' (which is what, exactly)?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058216.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058216.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Albatross wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:
Please note that I'm not saying this idiot should be thrown to the Afghans so they can rip him apart, I'm saying that if he's going to be tried by a military court, then perhaps it would have been more politically expedient to try him in-country, so that it doesn't look quite as much like the Great White Satan is protecting a mass-murderer at the cost of the Afghan people. He murdered children, for feth's sake. Justice must be seen to be done by the people ISAF are occupying, if there is to be any hope of retaining the trust of the Afghans - we all know what happens if they turn away from the Allies en masse: Buildings start going KA-BOOM in western cities again.

Getting tried in Afghanistan is a pretty good sign that you won't get a fair trial and goes against everything the West stands for.

How would the Americans subjecting the guy to a military tribunal inside Afghanistan go against 'everything the west stands for' (which is what, exactly)?

Freedom and the right to a fair trial. Try him in his home country. Afgahistan isn't known as a bastion of good Law process.

This goes double if people are going after capital punishment.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058230.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058230.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

Albatross wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
Please note that I'm not saying this idiot should be thrown to the Afghans so they can rip him apart, I'm saying that if he's going to be tried by a military court, then perhaps it would have been more politically expedient to try him in-country, so that it doesn't look quite as much like the Great White Satan is protecting a mass-murderer at the cost of the Afghan people. He murdered children, for feth's sake. Justice must be seen to be done by the people ISAF are occupying, if there is to be any hope of retaining the trust of the Afghans - we all know what happens if they turn away from the Allies en masse: Buildings start going KA-BOOM in western cities again.

Getting tried in Afghanistan is a pretty good sign that you won't get a fair trial and goes against everything the West stands for.

How would the Americans subjecting the guy to a military tribunal inside Afghanistan go against 'everything the west stands for' (which is what, exactly)?

Freedom and the right to a fair trial. Try him in his home country. Afgahistan isn't known as a bastion of good Law process.

This goes double if people are going after capital punishment.

1) Members of the Military answer to the UCMJ, not the traditional law of the US.
2) Try him on a military base in Afghanistan, that way he stays in US custody.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058263.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058263.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

d-usa wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:
Albatross wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
Please note that I'm not saying this idiot should be thrown to the Afghans so they can rip him apart, I'm saying that if he's going to be tried by a military court, then perhaps it would have been more politically expedient to try him in-country, so that it doesn't look quite as much like the Great White Satan is protecting a mass-murderer at the cost of the Afghan people. He murdered children, for feth's sake. Justice must be seen to be done by the people ISAF are occupying, if there is to be any hope of retaining the trust of the Afghans - we all know what happens if they turn away from the Allies en masse: Buildings start going KA-BOOM in western cities again.

Getting tried in Afghanistan is a pretty good sign that you won't get a fair trial and goes against everything the West stands for.

How would the Americans subjecting the guy to a military tribunal inside Afghanistan go against 'everything the west stands for' (which is what, exactly)?

Freedom and the right to a fair trial. Try him in his home country. Afgahistan isn't known as a bastion of good Law process.

This goes double if people are going after capital punishment.

1) Members of the Military answer to the UCMJ, not the traditional law of the US.
2) Try him on a military base in Afghanistan, that way he stays in US custody.

1) I never said use civillian law.
2) Seems a decent enough compromise as long as no afghans are present or interfere (barring witnesses or other trial-related people). Not perfect but workable.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058319.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058319.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Frazzled wrote:

Albatross wrote:You're speaking to someone who comes from one. Say what you like about the British record, but it's pretty much standard knowledge that the Brits are good occupiers, comparitively. Just look at the Malaya Emergency - very similar to Vietnam, won. Northern Ireland, ended without a full-blown civil war. The Empire kept the lid on Indian mutinies and managed to control the country right up until the middle of the 20th century. Canada, Australia, the Africans were better-off under British rule than they are now... the list goes on and on. It can be done, the American political establishment and public just don't have the stomach for it.

Ireland disagrees

They're one of our biggest trading partners and our closest bilateral relationship, as well a being a peaceful, stable nation with a very similar culture to ours. Our language is spoken by all Irish people. The north is part of the UK, and will remain so as long as the vast majority of people there remain protestant loyalists.

India disagrees

Their political system is very similar to ours, they're an active member of the commonwealth, plus they seem to like their Civil Service and rail networks, mainly because there would BE no India without them.

Pakistan disagrees

See above. Any problems they have now are not of our making. Blame Gandhi. Also, they're part of the Commonwealth too.

The United States disagrees

Presumably you are enjoying common law, Habeas Corpus... in fact most of the stuff in your constitution, not to mention the language you speak and many of your customs. Plus you're one of our biggest trading partners and we're one of yours. The fact that there are many business links between our two countries is frankly almost too obvious to mention to anyone with half a brain. The USA has undoubtedly benefited from being a former British colony, any suggestion to the contrary is just wilfully obtuse.

South Africa disagrees

Erm, they're still part of the Commonwealth. Plus, the Westminster system, the English language, culture etc. etc. Yes, there was a Boer rebellion - it was put down, and eventually the country managed a peaceful transition to independence.

Egypt disagress

They seem to enjoy their canal.

Jordan disagrees

They were a protectorate, not a colony (actually, this is true of Egypt too) - they also happen to be one of the most liberal and peaceful countries in the Middle East, and the UK maintains good relations with the Jordanians.

Israel disagrees

Actually, the Palestinians seemed to quite like us. It was 'the other guys' who were doing the bombings and murder back then... so, feth 'em. They've made their bed. Also not a colony.

Syria disagrees

Never been a British colony or protectorate, in fact Britain helped them gain independence, so feth knows what you're on about there...

Must Try Harder. D-

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:
2) Try him on a military base in Afghanistan, that way he stays in US custody.

Yep, this. It's really not complicated.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058412.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Our language is spoken by all Irish people.

They spoke English before you showed up?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058736.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058736.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Ahtman wrote:

Our language is spoken by all Irish people.

They spoke English before you showed up?

Well, they did before I personally showed up in around 1982. I think the language barrier would have otherwise been a problem for my parents...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058836.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058836.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Ahtman wrote:

Our language is spoken by all Irish people.

They spoke English before you showed up?

It was technically the Normans that invaded and occupied Ireland first...
English rules afterwards merely inherited it... and kept power through the increasingly bloody suppressions every time there was an uprising...
The English were not nice people back then...
Or rather, their rules weren't...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058890.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058890.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan UK) by a body of water. How is it not all the Welsh speak English?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058914.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

AustonT wrote:If all Irish people speak English, and Ireland is separated from England(UK) by a body of water. How is it not all the Welsh speak English?

The Welsh are really stubborn and teach their native langauge better than the Irish teach theirs. (Their system of education for Wealsh is arguably superior) They also have less people to teach...
The Welsh didn't have that many uprisings and so their culture was never relenlessly persued.
Most (Fairly sure practically all) the Welsh speak English but you get places that'll switch to Welsh and refuse to talking in English as soon as they hear you since they destest anyone speaking English.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058938.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058938.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058945.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058945.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan There are places in Wales where Welsh is taught as a first language but as far as i know almost everyone in Wales knows English to a decent degree...
You could also argue that the Welsh are doing it to mess with people...
Not sure how accurate that would be though...
MrDWhitey might know more...
He lives there, i'm just on the border...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058951.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4058951.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

purplefood wrote:It's a bit of a grey area...
There are places in Wales where Welsh is taught as a first language but as far as i know almost everyone in Wales knows English to a decent degree...
You could also argue that the Welsh are doing it to mess with people...
Not sure how accurate that would be though...
MrDWhitey might know more...
He lives there, i'm just on the border...

I was wildly out of bounds, assuming DM is correct there are only 600K Welsh speakers and scientifically speaking "some of them" don't speak English.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

purplefood wrote:
The Welsh didn't have that many uprisings and so their culture was never relenlessly persued.

And their Prince is a traitor to Welsh Nationalism!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4059118.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4059118.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Mr Hyena wrote:

Barksdale wrote:Apparently the guy was pissed for not receiving a promotion to Sergeant first class, was behind on payments for his two houses, had a wife banging someone else in Tacoma, had defrauded a number of people at his former job, was too stupid to finish college, AND had a previous charge for assaulting a former girlfriend.

This guy is just a cold blooded murderer. Professional trained soldiers do not go and massacre 16 civilians.

Easy there tiger. I think maybe you have some PTSD of your own. And you know where I'm from how? You would never guess...

mattyrm wrote:

I have never had much sympathy for the PTSD crowd, whenever I read about a soldier who was a fething douchebag its always "wah wah wah Ive got PTSD" and they were always in some chicken gak outfit anyway.

If this guy getting hauled over the coals will mitigate the inevitable gak storm that is heading our troops way over this issue, then feth him. Hand him over and let them do what they will. Its a bigger deterant to psychotic dick heads in the military with no backbone, and it's going to help our cause dragging the Afghans on-side. Thats two wins. Less chance of our soldiers doing stupid gak when they are on tour, and less chance of pissing our Afghan allies off. There is only one loser, and that's Sgt Robert Bales, and I dont much give a feth about him.

Yep this sums it up. I have no sympathy for these losers. Toss them to the Afghans who are trying to build a country. At least try them on our base in Afghanistan and when found guilty give the Afghans a part in the execution.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Getting tried in Afghanistan is a pretty good sign that you won't get a fair trial and goes against everything the West stands for.

but you have both been pretty xenophobic.

The guy I referred to is continuously anti-america. I'm not an American, but his views can be turned on himself.

How is arguing for justice, for SIXTEEN innocent women and children, on their own soil, anti-american? And again, you have no idea where I'm from or how patriotic I am. What I can gather about you, however, is that you suffer from a superiority complex about the western world. The world is a big place. I'm guessing that you haven't been exposed to much of it. You should loosen up, get out of your box, and be a bit more openminded. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4059299.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4059299.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan HH, that guy in my unit killed a Polizei Dog, not directly, but the spinal damage he inflicted forced them to have to euthanize the K-9 officer. The Germans do treat the dogs as full officers of the law, so though it was one, and a dog, he still killed a cop basically.

As for them rushing him to the states, I have given it some thought, and discussed this with others. They could have held the court martial on base, had some JAG's flown in, and been able to allow observers from the Afghani Gov't come in, as well as have any local witnesses testify.

Instead, I hear his lawyer is headed to Afghanistan to get testimonies and other evidence so as to work the case while Bales' sits in Leavenwoth under lock and key.

In the end, this all boils down to a political fiasco.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4059411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4059411.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

shasolenzabi wrote:For HH, that guy in my unit killed a Polizei Dog, not directly, but the spinal damage he inflicted forced them to have to euthanize the K-9 officer. The Germans do treat the dogs as full officers of the law, so though it was one, and a dog, he still killed a cop basically.

Sorry, was this in response to me? That doesn't nearly approach the same sort of crime we're talking about here.

Also, I would like to state for the record that I agree profusely with mattrym on the subject. I wanted to say that while I still had the chance.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4060056.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4060056.page GMT Re:Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Sorry, was this in response to me? That doesn't nearly approach the same sort of crime we're talking about here.

Also, I would like to state for the record that I agree profusely with mattrym on the subject. I wanted to say that while I still had the chance.

Oh most definitely. Now as for the severity, yes, I agree, 16 people of which 9 were kids is a much more severe level. (But you had asked about that guy and what his crime was).
Well, anyway, Since they decided to try him in Leavenworth instead of the base in Kandahar, one can only hope that Justice will be served, even though as is apparent by the heat this subject has garnered I wonder if the outcome will soothe the rift between the US and the Afghan allies unless he does become the first execution in 50yrs? With other news of his alleged stateside perfidy, it doesn't seem he can totally claim much of the defenses his lawyer may attempt, even though they are separate cases, they do show some shadow on his character.

If he is a nutter, lock him away and hit him with his meds on schedule.

If he is a cold blooded killer, well, Rabid Dogs need to be put down.

If he is a mess a life chipping gravel from boulders is his future. Unless they decide to extradite him to Kandahar for a trial there, which by now it simply does not seem to be the case.

Meanwhile stuff like this comes out as time goes by.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2118388/Robert-Bales-told-soldiers-killed-Afghan-men-women-children.html

Keeping in mind that the Koran burnings were not that long before this massacre, Those should have been shown to officials over there so that they could see the books were already defiled by the terrorist prisoners and had their folks burn them, or had us take them out of Afghanistan for destruction to avoid hostility. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4060093.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4060093.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan
Now if you had said that the soldier had committed homicide and was still made safe from German prosecution that would have been more persuasive.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4060110.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4060110.page GMT Rogue US soldier goes on rampage in Afghanistan

Hazardous Harry wrote:Exactly, killing a dog (as brave and admirable as police dogs are) is nowhere near the same level as murdering nearly a score of people, children amongst them. So I don't see how this helps your point at all.

Now if you had said that the soldier had committed homicide and was still made safe from German prosecution that would have been more persuasive.

I see where you are coming from. That was in case my poorly communicated point, even though the dog was alive, yet crippled, it was better for them to put it down as he had broken it's spine in three places when he slammed it to the ground off his back. (He was drunk, AND a brute in body build. Our own MP's couldn't even take him down. I just wonder if his "protection" from Germany would have been allowed had he committed such a crime as this Bales guy did?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4060142.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/435761/4060142.page GMT