Deadshot wrote:What about Rending? An assault cannon gets it yet a minigun Fething Cannon diosn't?

chrisrawr wrote:I've always simply played it TL'd. Even with pask, it's not that bad. (18 hits).

chrisrawr wrote:TL'd is 15 hits, 10 wounds, 3.3r unsaved vs meq and 8.83 unsaved vs orks.

For almost 200 points.

Conversely, that's 27 orks and a power klaw.

You be the judge.

Iranna wrote:

chrisrawr wrote:TL'd is 15 hits, 10 wounds, 3.3r unsaved vs meq and 8.83 unsaved vs orks.

For almost 200 points.

Conversely, that's 27 orks and a power klaw.

You be the judge.

You can't exactly justify or denounce a unit by comparing to a unit of another codex, especially since it is a completely different unit type.

Granted, you're right in saying that it either needs a price drop or twin-linking but comparative evidence, when used outside of the context of the unit's codex, is about as useful as anecdotal evidence.

Iranna.

The Mad Tanker wrote:I ran the number though a combat calculator and rending gets 3 kills against MEQ opposed to 2 for regular Punisher. That doesn't seem too bad, and it would make the punished worth the price increase over the standard Leman Russ.

Normal:
Shots: 20
Hit Chance: 50%
Hits: 10
Wound Chance: 66.67%
Wounds: 6.667
Saved Wounds: 4.444
Unsaved Wounds: 2.222
Models Killed: 2.222

Rending:
Shots: 20
Hit Chance: 50%
Hits: 10
Wound Chance: 50%
Rend Wound Chance: 16.67%
Wounds: 5
Rend Wounds: 1.667
Saved Wounds: 3.333
Unsaved Wounds: 1.667
Unsaved Rending Wounds: 1.667
Models Killed: 3.333
Options: Rending

jgehunter wrote:Twin Linked, that is ok, but 20 rending shots I think is a bit OTT

Deadshot wrote:AC is heavy 4.

The Mad Tanker wrote:Very little theoretical increase. My main point is the Punisher will almost always be out performed by the the standard LRMBT, but it costs 30pts more! Keep in mind too that the range on the Punisher Cannon is the same as the Demolisher cannon, so it is just as threatening as a Demolisher at penetrating armor, and for more points.

Edit: Also, it is AP -, so it drops by one on the vehicle damage charts.

The Mad Tanker wrote:I ran that in an earlier post, against MEQ's, normal punisher got 2 kills, rending punisher got 3 kills.

The Mad Tanker wrote:With units at the the max 2 inch cohesion, you are still looking at four marines on average under the plate, with an average of 3.33 killed. That is more kills with a LRMBT over a Punisher that cost more. With rending, the two are now comparable, but the Punisher still cost more.

I think this may require some play testing...

chrisrawr wrote:@luna - 2 Termies are not an attractive shot for a demolisher round. If all you've got left is 2 termies on the board vs your various lrbt's, here's what we get

UMGuy wrote:Just a thought, what if it was str 6 ap - and either added 12 inches to the range or was heavy 25?

That would ID t3, a good porton of hordes, and make for a more useful tank.

LunaHound wrote:

The Mad Tanker wrote:I will concede that numbers say Punisher 1 Kill vs LRMBT 0 Kills in that scenario

But, The Punished has to be at 1/3 the range of the LRMBT, at that range, the Demolisher scores the same kills with a higher chance.

All I am saying is that considering the the Punisher is suppose to be this king of anti-infantry, it is matched or out done by more versatile, cheaper options.

I know, but adding rending is beyond anti infantry. Because even assault cannon volley can take out a Land Raider

Joey wrote:People over-estimate the vanilla Russ's ability to kill MEQ. Assuming 4+ cover and a ~50% chance of hitting, you're looking at 4 under the template for each kill, which is pretty rare. So the Punisher already beats it.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Joey wrote:People over-estimate the vanilla Russ's ability to kill MEQ. Assuming 4+ cover and a ~50% chance of hitting, you're looking at 4 under the template for each kill, which is pretty rare. So the Punisher already beats it.

The LRBT also has a 72" range, S8 and AP3, which threatens a much larger area than the Punisher ever could, turning it into a much more powerful area denial weapon that can also damage vehicles if there's nothing else to go for (and yes, I know the Punisher is S5, but between that and AP- it's not going to be killing vehicles anytime soon).

chrisrawr wrote:Using a 32-directional 'scatter' simulation and 10 marines placed in 4+ cover in standard formations (deepstruck, deployed, line, spread-out line, spread-out blob, disembarked), we manage a rounded average of: 3.5 Marines, 2.5 Marines, 1.5 Marines, 1 Marine, 2 Marines, 2.5 Marines. Obviously, out of cover we double that.