<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Bayonet charge"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Bayonet charge http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4071387.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4071387.page GMT Bayonet charge http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4071587.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4071587.page GMT Bayonet charge Armour rating of 3 and below? What if it has high weapons skill? It could bayonet a break in the armour.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4071781.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4071781.page GMT Bayonet charge
For guard 1 point each
SOB 1 point each
SM/CSM 2 points each

Bayonet Charge:
A model may be given a bayonet if armed with a lasgun, shotgun, or bolter for 1 point. On the turn a model launching an assault armed with a bayonet makes it in base to base combat he may take a single attack at Initiative 10 in place of his normal attacks for that turn with armor saves allowed. A model launching a counter-attack may also use their bayonet utilizing the above conditions.


So no charging bonus, they have to get into B2B, it's always a single attack regardless of base attacks and other weapons, and it is only on the turn they launch and assault(or counter).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4072363.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4072363.page GMT Bayonet charge http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4072386.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4072386.page GMT Bayonet charge http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4072405.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4072405.page GMT Bayonet charge
That's a god +2pnts a bayonet that people may or not take. Doesn't give a huge advantage and is mostly a play style thing, most likely to help Guard Infantry try and fight orks, as long as they get the charge, in CC. Which they probably still won't do.

I like that all models in the unit must take the upgrade, but I'd say it should be codex specific. Not a USR. (Weapon Type Special Rule.) Some armies really don't need and shouldn't have CC boosts more than they have already. (SM) Guard basic infantry wouldn't mind some boosts. But everyone just runs meq anyways with the poor guys. Waste of a varied codex if you ask me.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4072498.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4072498.page GMT Bayonet charge ppm, every model in the squad must take it, just +2 attacks on the charge. Would help with making a CQB guard, which while it is very noncompetitive is quite fun.Could allow for some pretty sweet combos like Straken + Combined Squad w/ Bayonets = up to 150 strength 4 I 4 attacks on the charge.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4072950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4072950.page GMT Re:Bayonet charge http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4073143.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4073143.page GMT Bayonet charge
The Bayonet is a 2-Handed Close Combat Weapon that can only be wielded in Close Combat if the Model has a Non-Pistol Ranged Weapon. On the Charge, If the wielder is in Base Contact with an enemy model, it gains an additional attack (in addition to the attack from Charging). This attack is made at +1 Initiative and Strength, but always only hits on a roll of 4+ (unless it would be worse). If this attack misses, the remainder of the wielding model's attacks this turn are made at Initiative 1.

The Bayonet is a full-squad upgrade for units with Bolt variants, Las variants, Shoota variants, Shuriken variants, and Splinter variants. To determine points cost, total the squad's Weapons Skill, Strength, and Initiative, and divide that number by 20 (rounding up).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4073608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4073608.page GMT Bayonet charge OP, furious charge and +2 attacks on the charge? Also, the way to calculate the cost is too complicated and unbalance (honestly, guard get them for five points, and marines get them for one more?). Just have it be +2 attacks and set a price depending on the army, perhaps 2 ppm for guard, 4ppm for marines etc.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4073717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4073717.page GMT Bayonet charge
No?

I thought not.

So, say we're going with the 50-man blob against MEQ, using an absolutely 100% ideal situation.

20 Points, we get on the charge (assuming, magically, that everyone in base actually gets their charge attack)

Since we have 16 Marines for roughly equivalent cost, we'll say that somehow 20 guard get their bayonet attacks.

So you've paid 20 points for: 10 Attacks, 5 Wounds, and 1.6r unsaved wounds. At the same time, the Marines (who have CCW and Bolt Pistol because their current loadout is stupid) get 34 attacks back (assuming 2 sergeants), 21 of them hit, 14 of them wound, and 9 saves are failed.

The rest of the (magically in-range to attack) guardsmen then deal a combined total of 5 unsaved wounds. Guard fail by ~3 and fallback most of the time, being whiped.

You have paid 20 points for 1.6r unsaved wounds; buying 4 flamers while being within charge range for your magical charge would've given you at least 2 wounds. So, you be the judge on what it's worth.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4073778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4073778.page GMT Bayonet charge CC without being OP.
I'm not saying SM couldn't get balanced cost and use out of bayonets, I'd just rather they didn't have it, and think Guard would benefit more from it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4075072.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4075072.page GMT Re:Bayonet charge
Fix Bayonets! is a new order that can be issued by any IG command squad to any Infantry Squad, Veteran Squad, or Conscripts unit at the start of the Guard player's shooting phase. The unit receiving the order can do nothing else this shooting phase, but is at +1 Strength and Initiative until the start of the Guard player's next turn.

I don't even think this requires a points increase, as it's not a very big buff, and it's very situational. It only applies to one Guard squad at a time, has a decent chance of failing like any other order, and gives up shooting any assault weapons you might have in favor of a slight buff in hand to hand. It's set up to allow the squad to receive a charge as well, but unless your weapons options really suck (like a Conscript unit, for instance), you're probably better off shooting whoever's about to charge you instead.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4075628.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4075628.page GMT Bayonet charge IG have them). Fix bayonets order is a great idea. Maybe a 1 ppm increase? The average guardsman does need a slight improvement and that is generally why I thought it up.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076220.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076220.page GMT Bayonet charge
Desert_thunder_heart wrote:Wow great response! I was thinking codex specific. Marines don't generally have bayonets, but 'crons do don't they? (obviously IG have them). Fix bayonets order is a great idea. Maybe a 1 ppm increase? The average guardsman does need a slight improvement and that is generally why I thought it up.

Hell, give them to every non-melee race. Tau (or at least Kroot and Gue'Vesa), IG, Necrons, I think that is it. They are the ones that are probably more likely to use them, bayonets for marines would probably be a downgrade over their armoured fists, Orks have choppas, Tyranids have claws and teeth, and Chaos daemons are living weapons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076469.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076469.page GMT Bayonet charge http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076557.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076557.page GMT Bayonet charge
Jefffar wrote:Kroot have their fighting blades already, but Gue'vesa probably would like 'em for the times when the Marines come for payback.

Don't play Tau, do fighting blades have special rules of some kind?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076591.page GMT Bayonet charge
Buttons wrote:
Jefffar wrote:Kroot have their fighting blades already, but Gue'vesa probably would like 'em for the times when the Marines come for payback.

Don't play Tau, do fighting blades have special rules of some kind?


Yep, they allow the Kroot Rifle to count as 2x Close Combat Weapons.

But they are used in a different fashion than a bayonet. Kroot fighting blades come into play like the funky curved Klingon sword from Star Trek. Bayonets are more about charging/counter charging so I see Furious Charge and/or Counter Attack being better representations of the bayonet. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076680.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076680.page GMT Bayonet charge http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076949.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4076949.page GMT Bayonet charge
Desert_thunder_heart wrote:Can you get Gue'vesa models? What is their average weapon? Is it a las*fail*gun?

You have to convert them, and IIRC they use lasguns and can have a few (1-3 I really don't know) guys upgraded to pulse rifles or carbines. Not sure if they can use markerlights or not. Sound really useless on the tabletop tbh.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4077296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4077296.page GMT Bayonet charge
In it's essence, a sword would be a much better close combat weapon due to it's purpose-made grip and both pick and axe would be better for damaging armoured opponents.
I do note that bayonettes typically were rather easy to deflect.

All in all, in a system where the physically superior Eldar have the same statline as a human and where an exploding fragmentation grenade has the same damaging effect as a punch, well... it doesn't leave much for the bayonette.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078024.page GMT Bayonet charge 40K is that "things that look or seem cool" are usually better than "Things that would actually work, regardless of cool-factor."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078033.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078033.page GMT Bayonet charge http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078064.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078064.page GMT Bayonet charge http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078103.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078103.page GMT Bayonet charge ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078304.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078304.page GMT Bayonet charge http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078332.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078332.page GMT Bayonet charge nos your 25pt model killed a 5pt guardsman with your melta gun.

So you use melta vets to screen your tanks? Or to hold your oblective? Because I'm pretty sure a 20-40 man blob is more effective at both. And blobs win hands down in kill points.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078351.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078351.page GMT Bayonet charge http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078399.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078399.page GMT Bayonet charge IG. Your approaching it from a vacuum. I'm approaching it from game play experience. Sure 1v1 a dred will out point a 20 man blob. However your not factoring in that i get a chance to vaporize you with my meltas in the blob. Ive been running blobs for a while and have only been locked in combat with a dred twice, BOTH Times i charged it, since i failed to destroy it, and needed to stop it from killing my tanks.

Plus they annoy people who list tailor, "Oh you play IG, let me just add a gak load of meltas." Comes to table, "Hey where are all your tanks?" So in essence they lose points paying for meltas they will never be in range to take out av 14. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078414.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078414.page GMT Bayonet charge
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I like how people think guard suck at h2h. They dont need any upgrades since they're already better then marines at it, if you combine squads with a commissar. The bayonet was an amazing weapon innovation back when it came out, for it allowed the arquebus to engage pikemen. But now it has no purpose in a modern battlefield.

Yes it does, it allows soldiers to engage in melee combat and extend their reach over a simple knife as well as not needing to lower their primary weapon to draw a knife or sword. IIRC the Brits had a couple of successful bayonet charges in Afghanistan, and even disregarding organized bayonet charges, if an enemy is right in your face it is generally a safe bet to simply stab him with a bayonet, even if you open fire half a second later.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078537.page GMT Bayonet charge HS to my list. If you'd ran a vets in a vendetta for 240, you spend 60 points extra but don't have to worry about 2, 3, maybe even 4 Dreadnaughts. You also don't have to worry about other hordes for the most part, or anything that can't hit your rear armour at S6 or less. You get 24" capture/deny swoops, some of the most efficient ranged firepower in the game, and the ability to deepstrike some melta vets in. It's a more efficient use of points that works better in a wider range of situations, which is why people use it instead of infantry blobs.

Yes, it's because Vendettas are hyperefficient on their points. Yes, it's because Melta Vets are awesome. Yes, if you brought infantry blobs up to this level of greatness, people would take them. No, we can't do this with bayonets. But it's a start, even though it's a silly start that doesn't make much sense.

Edit in regard to Buttons: If your enemy is a giant fungus, a wave of scything bugs, hyper-agile elfs in space, or a superhuman demigod in magi-plate hyper armour, your argument begins to look more and more invalid. Knives and blades would already not work well against most of these things - CC is very abstract in 40K. Introducing 'things that make sense' into a situation where they don't make sense even in the sense of things that don't make sense, doesn't make sense.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078681.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4078681.page GMT Bayonet charge CC weapon like a martial arts master, than, yea, otherwise, no, it's not even a better idea to use it in a charge unless trying to stick people behind cover or through windows or doors or sandbags etc. and that it does have use in war for quick stabbing without having to sheeth your gun may be something you can use in the sense. So reality based, no +1 anything. Honestly, still, who cares, it's a game, it's the future, The steel of the blade is so brimingly sharp or maybe the bayonet tip is poisoned or enrgized, I don't know, a lucky hit is a lucky hit anyways. How do a horde of orks chargin a land raider honestly not just tip the damn thing over or wreck its wheels?
Obviously, I am not posting rules on reality, no, I am posting rules on models and something that would make taking Guardsmen more intersting for the mass amount of people that currently don't field them in response to the original poster, and I like the idea of bayonets charge being an order.

However, perhaps all it can really do is allow a unit charging in to cover to make one attack at normal intiative instead of normal attacks at Intiative One.

Or Ready Bayonets: Each model with a Bayonet being charged may make one attack against the initiative of one model in base to base contact with it before other attacks are rolled.

I don't know if any of that makes sense, but I'm tired of editing it and this Chinese internet bar has no good Microsoft Word.

Also, I really like this sentence as posted by chrisrawr:

Introducing 'things that make sense' into a situation where they don't make sense even in the sense of things that don't make sense, doesn't make sense.

And wanted to repost it.

So all in all, as long as it's balanced pointwise, I'm happy with whatever it does.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4079664.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4079664.page GMT Bayonet charge
Runna wrote:Or Ready Bayonets: Each model with a Bayonet being charged may make one attack against the initiative of one model in base to base contact with it before other attacks are rolled.


Perfect!

Thanks for the feedback everyone!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4080884.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4080884.page GMT Bayonet charge
Desert_thunder_heart wrote:
Runna wrote:Or Ready Bayonets: Each model with a Bayonet being charged may make one attack against the initiative of one model in base to base contact with it before other attacks are rolled.


Perfect!

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

That works for me, a simple order, not OP, doesn't increase the points cost.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4081156.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4081156.page GMT Bayonet charge
Buttons wrote:
Desert_thunder_heart wrote:
Runna wrote:Or Ready Bayonets: Each model with a Bayonet being charged may make one attack against the initiative of one model in base to base contact with it before other attacks are rolled.


Perfect!

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

That works for me, a simple order, not OP, doesn't increase the points cost.


Am I missing something, or is this actually confusingly worded? What does it mean, make one attack against an enemy in base to base contact before any other attacks are rolled, i.e. at Initiative 10?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4082090.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4082090.page GMT Bayonet charge
The gun is clumsy and easily avoided. Due to the soldier holding the gun and his only real means of fighting in close combat is on the end of it he is very vunerable. He can easily be outmanuvered at close range, he can't duck or dodge properly and has no means to attack once an enemy is close. An enemy once beside him or simply close enough to be past the point of the bayonet can easily finish him off.

The primary purpose it serves is a morale boost for soldiers if they fear being charged and attacked at close range. It means they feel they have a defence if an enemy makes it past their bullets. Real fighting and killing needs to usually be done with a knife or trench fighting weapon, kills with a bayonet only work because of luck, not skill.

Rules for it would apply to units being charged. Making them stubborn in a turn they are assaulted but also putting them at one less WS and initiative due to the clumsyness and ineffectiveness of the bayonet. Also all models must use their bayonet to gain this rule and not use other close combat weapons or power weapons, powerfists, agonisers etc. I requires both hands to use and allows one strike that is hard to aim so extra attacks for it would make no sense.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4083528.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4083528.page GMT Bayonet charge
CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Buttons wrote:
Desert_thunder_heart wrote:
Runna wrote:Or Ready Bayonets: Each model with a Bayonet being charged may make one attack against the initiative of one model in base to base contact with it before other attacks are rolled.


Perfect!

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

That works for me, a simple order, not OP, doesn't increase the points cost.


Am I missing something, or is this actually confusingly worded? What does it mean, make one attack against an enemy in base to base contact before any other attacks are rolled, i.e. at Initiative 10?


Well, it does go first, but in that sense the Initiative of the model you're attacking is their WeaponSkill. (There are other things like this.) So, WS 3 versus so and so Initiative, to represent that it is in fact just a lucky stick with a long point on it before the fight begins. (Pretty much the guard are holding the bayonets out ready for the charge and this is to see if the charges get hit by the blade on their way to the guard. Like pikemen to horses, but not as good as Pikes.)

Charging orks I imagine would be easy to stab with the thing, because they would be massing around but Howling Banshees and the like not so much. as they would be more likely to dodge this thing.

Maybe make it St 2 to represent the weakness of it and thus the order is in fact, as useful as a bayonet in real life, luck and luck alone make it matter.

Also this means that high initiative models aren't really hindered by the effects, making Guard more useful against pretty much ork type hordes and the like, but not your futuristic martial arts masters. At St 2 WS 3, it becomes two 5+ you would require to hurt most of the Eldar/DE etc. with said skill, thus it's not OP, and only by the whims of luck and luck alone could it be effective. As everyone complains about bad luck already, no new complaints come to the field with said rule.

I guess, of course, because others are happy with the rule, I feel good. I don't know, I try hard not to word things to confusiongly, and I think I'm getting better at it. If you read my first posts on the forums, you would have thought I was on acid, sadly I'm not, I just get a bit, carried away with the keyboard and lack a filter. I'm getting better.

I like it when rules come up based on discussion too, I think it allows the rule to filter through the many different mind sets and playstyles of different players, and I feel that the rule I wrote really came from reading and taking in the feedback of everyone on this particular post. So, an invitation to anyone to give me similar feedback on my own codex is open. no, I did not just post that here, you saw nothing, I am completly devoting my attention to the bayonet question...

Because the rule is not exceptionally useful, I don't see why the Guard should be penalized their actual attacks in CC even though it would make sense in reality. It's unneccesary points wise to penalize them. It is after all an order that makes the guy giving orders just a little more varied. But, that's just me, and I imagine others could work something out if it was agreed they should. Also the wording of the rule may need rewriting I suppose. (As in, versus Initiative instead of WS, or versus Initiative instead of Toughness. Your guys call.)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4084114.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4084114.page GMT Re:Bayonet charge
I know other people seem to like it, but I think it still has problems. Now not only are you adding an extra attack, but you're striking faster than any other model on the board. And a Dark Eldar Archon has the same chance of being hit as a space marine (I7 and I4, both are still hit on a 5+). At least I think we all agree an Order is a good idea, but even simply adding Furious Charge is too overpowered for something as simple as a bayonet.

What if the order added +1 Initiative to any model with a lasgun if the unit charged or was charged, but at the cost of -1 Ballistic Skill for lasguns due to the heavy blade on the end of your weapon, and the time it takes to put it on? Effects last until the start of the player's next turn.

That gives the guard unit a slight buff based on the reach of their weapon (and probably moreso the psychological effects of a bayonet charge) without adding any extra strength or attacks, while still having serious downsides. If you are charging it's useful, but if you're receiving a charge it's a trade-off.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4085039.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4085039.page GMT Bayonet charge
Look to the existing rules and see what fits and use it.

In this case I have two suggestions. If you want to emphasize the bayonet as a way to prepare to receive a charge, I suggest Counter Attack USR. If you instead want to emphasize the grand bayonet charges of years gone by (not that far ago either, was one in Iraq in 2004) go with Furious Charge.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4085068.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4085068.page GMT Bayonet charge IG melee is already pokey end of stick... ot officaly but it is what we say cuz i mean what are you gonna do punch them when you have a rifle bayonets]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4085433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4085433.page GMT Bayonet charge And a good punch never hurt any...wait...yes...yes it did.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4092485.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4092485.page GMT Bayonet charge
Or they count as having assualt grenades when charging into cover?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4094461.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4094461.page GMT Re:Bayonet charge
Bloodhorror wrote:
Or, they get a +1 Intiative bonus if in cover when the enemy charges.

Or they count as having assualt grenades when charging into cover?

I really like this. Make it an Order that confers both until the start of the player's next turn. The effect is small and it's unlikely a Guard player would waste an order on it, but if you want to for fun's sake, go for it.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4094610.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/438808/4094610.page GMT