<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Most effective IG Artillery?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/69.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Most effective IG Artillery? IG artillery piece.
A quick mention, since I'm comparing like-with-like with pie plates, I've assumed a standard 3 for all shots, as well as a ~50% to hit chance. Obviously this is highly variable on placing BUT it is also the same for all of them so should not make much difference.
Now, some mathhammer:

Manticore
vs Marines
assuming the average of 2 missiles, 3 hit, 2.5 wound, 0.83 dead
vs Land Raider
assuming 75% chance to hit, which is reasonable given its size
1.5 hits, each hit has a 75% chance to damage with Ordanance barrage rules so 0.75 damage results, 0.6 of which is penetrating, which aint too shabby
vs Rhino
1 hit, pretty much guarenteed penetration

Basilisk
vs Marines
1.5 hit, 1.25 wounded and dead
vs Land Raider
0.75 hit, 0.25 damage (and can only glance)
vs Rhino
0.5 hit, 0.4 damage

Griffon Since the Griffons are 75 points a piece I'm assuming two of them
vs Marines
4 hit, 3.3 wounded, 1.1 dead.
vs Land Raider
Can't hurt it
vs Rhino
1.2 hit, 0.8 damages (0.4 penetrating, 0.4 glancing)

These are the biggest 3 condenders imo. The Colossus is obviously very effective at killing marines in area terrain, though 99% of the area terrain I use is ruins and my enemy isn't going to camp his squad on the top floor of a ruin if I have artillery around...
The Manticore seems to come out on top. Slightly less effective than the Basilisk vs Marines (this difference dissapears once the marines are in area terrain) and can hurt AV12, as well as reliably kill light armour, which is very helpful.
What does dakka think? Is there something I'm missing?
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4090915.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4090915.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery? LOS shooting. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4090979.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4090979.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery? IG list.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091000.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091000.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?

a Squadron of Basilisks for the bulk of the work and a Manticore or 2 for anti-tank/anti-GEQ duties.

The 2nd manticore is only if you don't also want some LRBTs. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091004.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091004.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091105.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091105.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery? D6, making them better per-shot against vehicles than pretty much anything else in the codex. Plus, they get large blasts, which means that you can actually catch a fair amount of infantry.

As for if they are worth it per-point compared to other multi-shot direct fire weapons, that gets a little dicier as three lascannon HWSs are probably going to be better against most targets than two basilisks.

What they offer more than anything else is mid-range quality. With AV they are more durable than other options that do more damage, and in the low to mid 100's of points they are cheaper than their more heavily armored alternative. Effective enough to be worth taking and still cheap enough to be spammable. Not a required thing, for certain, but it's still a viable option.

As to which, it's the basilisk or the manticore. Everything else is really niche or is generally ineffective.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091236.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091236.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
Squash wrote:Honestly, are any of them worth it?

I'd been wondering this myself actually. Russes are pretty cool until you factor in universal cover and the sheer unliklihood of actually hitting anything.
Artillery offsets this somewhat by being able to fire indirectly, meaning infantry will only get cover in area terrain and vehicles will never get cover...though if you play with ubiquitous ruins, as i do, your opponant will simply park his transports on the bottom floor of ruins...sigh.

The Manticore is best in terms of bang for buck I reckon. And I can't bare to only have one or two given how easy they are to penetrate. 3 Manticores hidden at the back of the board with plenty of other AV12s in front of them is pretty effective, especially if your mech infantry is pushing forward and threatening the enemy-your opponent will more often than not prioritise a Chimera with meltavets in than a far-off Manticore, since the former is a much larger immediate threat. But that's just armour saturation really.
Basilisks IMO are too expensive to get enough of them. At the level they become effective, they also chew too much out of your points allowance. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091426.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091426.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
Joey wrote:The Manticore is best in terms of bang for buck I reckon.
I have used these extensively and they disappoint. Basically assume you will always get 1 missile off and that they only last 4 turns. It is great when they get 2 or 3 missiles (i.e D3 large blast) but it is a chance thing. So for 4 turns of 1 str10 ap4 blast, I found it entirely underwhelming. Also I really dislike never being able to force cover saves or instantly blast MEQ's when out of cover.

Effectively it reduces its ballistic skill even further by giving an additional chance element to its damage threshold. Another way to look at it is the Zoanthropes lance power; needing to pass a LD test; then roll to hit, then penetrate; then roll a damage table. Negative stacking odds. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091558.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091558.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
~Lion~]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091569.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery?
Normally it's bombarding things my Russ's can't see.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091601.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091601.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery?
Ailaros wrote:

As to which, it's the basilisk or the manticore. Everything else is really niche or is generally ineffective.

+1. The Bassy is neat when you land it on a squad of MEQ's, for everything else the manticore edges just ahead.

I just got a friend a manticore for his birthday, so now he has a manticore and a bassy. I'm wondering if it was a good idea...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Squash wrote:Honestly, are any of them worth it?



...yes, very yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Razerous wrote:Hydras. I hate to say it but they fill the role so well in everything besides non-LOS shooting.

Artillery =\= mobile AA]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091626.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091626.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
TheLionOfTheForest wrote:No mention of the Medusa up there ? also no point cost comparison ? griffons are cheap! Each artillery piece has a different role.

Yeah, I did actually...
Ailaros wrote:As to which, it's the basilisk or the manticore. Everything else is really niche or is generally ineffective.

The medusa is singular amongst artillery choices in that it's capable of being both niche AND ineffective at the same time.

Razerous wrote:Hydras. I hate to say it but they fill the role so well in everything besides non-LOS shooting.

I like hydras for what they do, but this quote isn't right.

Autocannons, on hydras or otherwise, fill exactly one role well - taking down the lightest of vehicles. Against everything else they lack the strength to be a serious threat to vehicles, lack the number of shots to be a serious threat to hordes, and lack the AP to be a serious threat to MEq, TEq, or MCs.

If you are going up against open-topped AV10, or skimmer AV10 on a reasonably regular basis, then it's totally worth it to take a couple of hydras for a mech list, as that target type can be spammed so hard that it can be kind of a pain in the butt to take out otherwise. To say that it fills every role in the game so well that there isn't a reason to take anything else is far from true, though.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091832.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091832.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery? It's worth it for the 150 points for a pair.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091873.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4091873.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4092053.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4092053.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
alarmingrick wrote:A-man as always is selling the Hydra too short.
It's worth it for the 150 points for a pair.


Yes, but is it worth the HS slot?

at low points and in Metas heavy with Eldar and other skimmers it would definitly be worth it, but otherwise you will probably get better use out of a 2nd Manticore.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4092205.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4092205.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
alarmingrick wrote:A-man as always is selling the Hydra too short.
It's worth it for the 150 points for a pair.

Hydra...are not artillery. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4092983.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4092983.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4093145.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4093145.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4093493.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4093493.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery? IG codex. The only things that are artillery are the DKOK batteries and the rapier laser destroyer.

I'm just being pedantic now though. Sorry.

Anyway, my vote for the best artillery goes to the manticore. It seems to be the best all round piece. In higher points games a pair of basilisks may be better though. The AP4 really doesn't bother me that much with the manticore. The chances of getting marines in the open are low, so they would usually get cover saves anyway.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4093537.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4093537.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery?
Trickstick wrote:Well if you want to get technical there is no artillery in the IG codex.

Master of Ordnance.



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4095052.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4095052.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery?
Ailaros wrote:
Trickstick wrote:Well if you want to get technical there is no artillery in the IG codex.

Master of Ordnance.





Do you every create anything that isn't freakin' awesome?!
I'd not ever run one, but if I did, I hope I could make one half as nice.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4095112.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4095112.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery?
alarmingrick wrote:
Ailaros wrote:
Trickstick wrote:Well if you want to get technical there is no artillery in the IG codex.

Master of Ordnance.





Do you every create anything that isn't freakin' awesome?!
I'd not ever run one, but if I did, I hope I could make one half as nice.


that is.....i just peed a lil]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4096108.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4096108.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4101485.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4101485.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4102340.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4102340.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery? MEQ heavy, so I just stick with Medusas and demolishers for termie/LR deterrent (everyone and their grandmother has a termie squad somewhere.) If it was more of an all around scene I'd take the manticores and hydras but as it is I don't see any point in using them. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4102453.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4102453.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4102599.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4102599.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery? Str. 6 ap. 3? If that's the right one? Only termis survive that... Oh did I mention no cover saves?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4122817.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4122817.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4122889.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4122889.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4123614.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4123614.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
KplKeegan wrote:I find the Colossus is great when squadroned with two Griffons. The maximum surface area with the Accurate Bombardment rules for the Griffon's is far lucrative than a single Manticore. As the latter has a chance to have all its rockets destroyed in one round of shooting, at least the Colossus has two ablative vehicle wounds before losing its own.

Hmm.

I suppose the only problem with this is that it doesn't fix the main problem with the colossus, it's terrible strength. It's still nearly 300 points that can't do much more than scratch paint on anything heavier than a rhino. That and it still has terrible Ap, but perhaps the sheer quantity of hits ameliorates this somewhat...

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4123999.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4123999.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
Ailaros wrote:
KplKeegan wrote:I find the Colossus is great when squadroned with two Griffons. The maximum surface area with the Accurate Bombardment rules for the Griffon's is far lucrative than a single Manticore. As the latter has a chance to have all its rockets destroyed in one round of shooting, at least the Colossus has two ablative vehicle wounds before losing its own.

Hmm.

I suppose the only problem with this is that it doesn't fix the main problem with the colossus, it's terrible strength. It's still nearly 300 points that can't do much more than scratch paint on anything heavier than a rhino. That and it still has terrible Ap, but perhaps the sheer quantity of hits ameliorates this somewhat...


I don't understand this bizzare fascination with trying to blink tanks with anti-infantry artillery. Let the Exterminator or Hydras worry about transports, it's the meat inside the artillery is for. And Colossus' AP is terrible? It kills marines outright. Colossus and Griffons are strength 6, AP 3 and 4 respectively. Have you seen what this thing does to Termagaunt and Ork hordes? It's a glorious sight to behold. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124023.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124023.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
KplKeegan wrote:I don't understand this bizzare fascination with trying to blink tanks with anti-infantry artillery.

The point isn't that purely anti-infantry stuff should also take out tanks. The problem is that in 5th ed, at least, units that are good against infantry, but can't do much to handle tanks just aren't worth taking. It's the same problem that SO MANY units tooled for this task have. Whether it's flamers, or heavy bolters on one end or eradicator cannons and punisher cannons on the other, what's the point of taking specialized anti-infantry tools in an army that, by default, is pretty good against infantry, in a world where it is more than possible to do mech spam, where they will see spotty killing power. Current meta goes to units that can both handle transports AND the guys inside - something that's required in order to be able to spam them enough to be able to handle mech spam.

Yes, the Ap3 part of this is kind of nice, but it's still 300 points of easily killable artillery that has to wait around doing nothing while the rest of your army supplies it with a target. This can create problems in general, but it's especially bad on a squad of flimsy vehicles that really only brings early game killing power before being knocked out.

I'd much rather take a basilisk that can engage anything outside of termies and MCs with a reasonable chance of doing some damage than take a unit that only works particularly well against MEq that have just been knocked out of their transport (why an opponent would even bother putting them in there in the first place if this would be a serious threat...), or against deepstrikers behaving foolishly.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124055.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124055.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery? AT capability but any infantry are going to get torn apart ....and its cheaper then getting heavy artillary which is easily targeted and can't take much cover , ......]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124130.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124130.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124778.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery?
As mentioned the Colossus wont do alot against armour, but as an anti infantry weapon it's a great bit of kit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124818.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
Ailaros wrote:
KplKeegan wrote:I don't understand this bizzare fascination with trying to blink tanks with anti-infantry artillery.

The problem is that in 5th ed, at least, units that are good against infantry, but can't do much to handle tanks just aren't worth taking. It's the same problem that SO MANY units tooled for this task have. Current meta goes to units that can both handle transports AND the guys inside - something that's required in order to be able to spam them enough to be able to handle mech spam.


This is very true, more and more in 5th ed my army looks more like an Eldar; specialized troops good at one thing and one thing only (Vanquishers for heavy tanks and MC's and Exterminators for transports or Flamer Vets and Missile Blobs), except there's more of them... But sometimes you do face a horde...

Yes, the Ap3 part of this is kind of nice, but it's still 300 points of easily killable artillery that has to wait around doing nothing while the rest of your army supplies it with a target. This can create problems in general, but it's especially bad on a squad of flimsy vehicles that really only brings early game killing power before being knocked out.

I'd much rather take a basilisk that can engage anything outside of termies and MCs with a reasonable chance of doing some damage than take a unit that only works particularly well against MEq that have just been knocked out of their transport (why an opponent would even bother putting them in there in the first place if this would be a serious threat...), or against deepstrikers behaving foolishly.


Basilisks have that glaring 36" blind spot when firing inderectly and ends up turning into a Medusa after turn two (unless caddy-cornered), which firing directly can also be hazardous to an artillery's health. At least with the Colossus and Griffons they have a little more turn leeway to fire Ordnance before the 24" zone.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124824.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124824.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
KplKeegan wrote:

This is very true, more and more in 5th ed my army looks more like an Eldar; specialized troops good at one thing and one thing only (Vanquishers for heavy tanks and MC's and Exterminators for transports or Flamer Vets and Missile Blobs), except there's more of them... But sometimes you do face a horde...



Wait...please don't tell me you use vanquishers, missile blobs...and...flamer vets!? My god man, those are probably the least effective, efficient, and competitive choices for any of those slots or roles that need to be filled. Why would you waste BS4 vets with flamers? Why would you waste a heavy support slot with a Vanquisher? Why are you using missiles in a blob squad when autocannons are either cheaper and more effective for light transports, and lascannons are more effective for anti-armour?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124906.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124906.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
Blacksails wrote:
KplKeegan wrote:

This is very true, more and more in 5th ed my army looks more like an Eldar; specialized troops good at one thing and one thing only (Vanquishers for heavy tanks and MC's and Exterminators for transports or Flamer Vets and Missile Blobs), except there's more of them... But sometimes you do face a horde...



Wait...please don't tell me you use vanquishers, missile blobs...and...flamer vets!? My god man, those are probably the least effective, efficient, and competitive choices for any of those slots or roles that need to be filled.


I know right? And yet I keep winning...

Why would you waste BS4 vets with flamers?


Because they have had better success at taking enemy held objectives by firing three templates simultaneously, shooting their shotguns, and charging, than shooting three meltas or three plasmas.

Why would you waste a heavy support slot with a Vanquisher?


72" range and 2D6 Armor pen, plus a hull lascannon, and Melta-Sponsons is the only real thing I need to kill heavy armor.


Why are you using missiles in a blob squad when autocannons are either cheaper and more effective for light transports, and lascannons are more effective for anti-armour?


Because I use Exterminators and missiles for transports. I choose missile launchers because of their dual purpose roles. And I do have a few Las Cannons just in case.


]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124950.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124950.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124989.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4124989.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
Blacksails wrote:I guess whatever works for you...but I can't help but shake the feeling there are far better and efficient choices for those roles.


There are, but the alternatives are commonplace among 'competitive' Guard lists and people can easily telegraph what you're carrying, adapting counter measures; Melta/Plasma vets, Vendettas, Autocannon/Lascannon blobs, Vanilla Russes, and suicide Storm Troopers. Showing up with units players aren't expecting is a tactical suprise. Sure there are cases where I still lose, but sometimes my uncoventional list can trump almost any 'competitive' list brought against it.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4125024.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4125024.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery? LOS, a manticore steps up to the plate nicely.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4125139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4125139.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
KhorneOnTheCob wrote:Medusa's are best in my tank company. A squad of 2 finishes off practically anything they target; infantry or vehicles. 36" range isn't shabby, and as for LOS, a manticore steps up to the plate nicely.


The Medusa is pretty solid, the down side is you need LOS as it's not a barrage weapon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4125246.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4125246.page GMT Most effective IG Artillery?
Still has to be in LOS, still has to hit, still has to pen, still has to roll high enough on the damage chart, and still has to beat cover where applicable. Sure, basically every unit has these restrictions, but in the medusa's case they hurt a lot more, being on an expensive, fragile vehicle.

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TheLionOfTheForest wrote:No mention of the Medusa up there ?

~Lion~


I think the Medusa must be one of the best artillery. Manticore is good and so is the Deathstrike but too unpredictable. The Griffon is the most reliable but the least effective most times.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4125766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/439824/4125766.page GMT Re:Most effective IG Artillery?
KplKeegan wrote:I know right? And yet I keep winning...

I'll point out 2 things.
1) I am very capable of going down to the local school and beating up 100 children. I then go "yeah, I just won 100 fights in a row". Once context is given, suddenly I don't look so tough no more
2) according to your sig you have not achieved victory in the majority of games. Statistically, the odds are you are not going to achieve victory.


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