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		<title><![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "UK Freedom's being erroded further."]]></title>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ After my concerns a few weeks back on the internet covered here.<br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/439466.page" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/439466.page</a><br /> <br /> The <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> Government wants to introduce this..... <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17601594" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>uk</span>/news/<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>uk</span>-politics-17601594</a><br /> <br /> What the hell is going on in my Country? <br /> <br /> No information is safe, with all the hackers groups being very competent and able to bring corporations and Government agencies to it's knees.  So the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> Government wants to have even more centrally held information. <br /> <br /> The <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> already has the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/23/contents" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.legislation.gov.<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>uk</span>/ukpga/2000/23/contents</a><br /> <br /> Why do we need anymore legislation? The RIPA Act covers all communications, so the argument that we don't cover the internet (SKYPE, Twitter etc ) is garbage. Someone went to prison last week because of what he posted on Twitter, why does the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> need even more powers? Plus this will be shared unconditionally with US....I work in this Government sector since leaving the military, this is not required and it's starting to erode civil liberties, this could just as easily be used to collate information on Political Views. We didn't want <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(269);'>ID</span> Cards (like WW2 "Halt Show me your papers") and it was stopped  but this has gone under the radar.<br /> <br /> You know what I'm going to move to Texas and meet up with Frazzled, this Country is losing it's mind. We fought the IRA for 3 decades and didn't need any of this, it's nonsense. I believe in the Paternalistic justification for limiting speech, but that applies to individuals who break the law, this is a blanket citizen wide.  The less said about the Secret Court Cases the better, If this comes to pass, I will take back everything I have said about GITMO because the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> is far worse.<br /> <br /> The best way to fight terrorism, is to give them the finger and carry on regardless. Not to change our entire society, because that's what the terrorists want. <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 12:45:41]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>Re:UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Because screaming outrage about this and petrol diverts attention away from the impending second recession Great Britain is about to fall into. <br /> <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 12:48:49]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ MeanGreenStompa]]></author>
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				<title>Re:UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>MeanGreenStompa wrote:</cite>Because screaming outrage about this and petrol diverts attention away from the impending second recession Great Britain is about to fall into. <br /> <br /> </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> If the aim was to take attention away from that the government would be drawing attention to several reports from independant research bodies in the last week including the PMI which show the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> will avoid recession.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 12:59:53]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ ifStatement]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ The best way to fight terrorism is not to give them the finger and carry on regardless. It is to drop big feth off bombs on them and arm Matty with the weapon he always wanted before he discovered they were cruelly and unnecessarily banned (flame-thrower) to eradicate even their ashes.<br /> <br />  Second best maybe.. <img src="/s/i/a/6d3c0a908a3861135dfaebde91c0ecf6.gif" border="0">]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:00:38]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mattyrm]]></author>
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				<title>Re:UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I really should stop hitting 'show this post'. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:03:27]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ ifStatement]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mattyrm wrote:</cite>The best way to fight terrorism is not to give them the finger and carry on regardless. It is to drop big feth off bombs on them and arm Matty with the weapon he always wanted before he discovered they were cruelly and unnecessarily banned (flame-thrower) to eradicate even their ashes.<br /> <br />  Second best maybe.. <img src="/s/i/a/6d3c0a908a3861135dfaebde91c0ecf6.gif" border="0"></div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Shame, I'm sure the flamethrower's 'ignore cover' rule would have been highly useful in the taliban caves in Afstan. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:06:46]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ MeanGreenStompa]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Let's be honest here. Any real terrorist worth their salt would not go within a million miles of any social network site, email or telephone service, if they are planning anything. It is too widely known that the security services can listen in.<br /> <br /> Similary, how do you guard against lone wolf attacks? You cant. This is fear mongering at its worst. <br /> <br /> It's no surprise really, freedoms have been eroded for years in Britain. The rot started with John Major, then new labour, and now these half-witted PR men pretending to be tories. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:07:39]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Do_I_Not_Like_That]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Right Matt, don't make me get my Officer head on. You know more than most, that every time you flatten an afghan village with a JDAM everytime you kill a so called Terrorist/Jihadist/ Foreign Fighter/ or even a Taliban you literally increase the likelihood of recruiting another to the cause (equally his son's will clamour for revenge). This is not hearts and mind's, thats what they call it, but it isn't. When you "JAVE" some poor bastard afghan civvie's compound in a firefight, does he say " Thank you".  Does he walk away thinking "I like the Brits", no he's say's "It was bad under the Taliban, but they didn't blow up my bloody house, damn infidels". The average Afghan is sick to the back teeth of the whole thing. <br /> <br /> In 2015, we will pull out of Afghanistan, is the world safer? Will the ANA survive the Warlord-ism that will return? We have basically trained an army for a future dictator, leader or warlord in Afghanistan. We will not look back at this period with pride, we expended billions, dropping £100,000 ordnance from £30 Million pound aircraft to kill 3-5 fighters with a few cheap Ak's, <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(107);'>PK</span>' and some <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(345);'>RPG</span>'s total cost less than $10000 <br /> . We levelled towns and villages with artillery and airpower because our government was unwilling to let you off the leash to wage war unimpeded, we have as a nation become risk averse and you cannot fight a war effectively with a risk averse attitude. We spilt alot of  blood and lost an awful lot of good marines, Soldiers, Airmen and a few matelots too for very litte, because we never committed fully to this at all. It takes decades to stabilise a country, not one.<br /> <br /> The truth of it is, the cost of freedom is occasional terrorist outrages. Terrorists will always get through somehow, we've just to weather the storms. Using Military Forces to Combat a Criminal problem just makes a bigger mess and actually benefits the terrorists. <br /> <br /> EDIT - MATT I wouldn't be surprised if you stay in CORP'S long enough you could be an RSM leading a Commando back into those Mountains in the 2025 - 2030 Time frame. Mark my words.<br /> <br />  ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:12:07]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Freedom is simply an opinion. I'm free to do what I do so I'm happy. <br /> <br /> Nom]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:17:46]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ nomsheep]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ We can but hope for a military warlord in Afstan, someone the West can influence and seduce with luxury cars and ipods. <br /> <br /> Both wars were a massive waste of life and have plunged the west into a financial downward spiral we might never escape. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:21:08]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ MeanGreenStompa]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>nomsheep wrote:</cite>Freedom is simply an opinion. I'm free to do what I do so I'm happy. <br /> <br /> Nom</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose...]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:23:02]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Frazzled]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>MeanGreenStompa wrote:</cite>We can but hope for a military warlord in Afstan, someone the West can influence and seduce with luxury cars and ipods. <br /> <br /> Both wars were a massive waste of life and have plunged the west into a financial downward spiral we might never escape. </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(484);'>IT</span>'S ALL ABOUT THE&nbsp;OILZ APPARANTLY. <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(84);'>lol</span><br /> <br /> We can escapeit. It'll just take time. <br /> <br /> Nom]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:23:24]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ nomsheep]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Not much OIL in Afghanistan last I checked. <br /> <br /> Fair bit in the Falklands though.<br /> <br /> @FRAZZ I wasn't even joking about moving to the American Continent. My wife has been given a Work Permit/visa to move to Canada. <br /> <br /> <blockquote><div><cite>nomsheep wrote:</cite>Freedom is simply an opinion. I'm free to do what I do so I'm happy. <br /> <br /> Nom</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> That is such a conceited attitude, I'm not sure if you are serious or not. Freedom from Oppression or  separation, or denigration, or discrimination, or unjustifiable abuse, that sir, is no opinion, it is a fact , a real acts committed against fellow human beings. If you think Freedom is an opinion, you have a very strange notion of freedom. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:28:21]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite>Not much OIL in Afghanistan last I checked. <br /> <br /> Fair bit in the Falklands though.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> We'll add them to the list after Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and Venezuela on Frazzled's proposed Texas "Take their Oil and their Tequila!" Tour]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:29:59]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Frazzled]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite>Not much OIL in Afghanistan last I checked. <br /> <br /> Fair bit in the Falklands though.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> That being the joke <img src="/s/i/a/053f30f6773034eb25223d86f0e00d8d.gif" border="0"><br /> <br /> Nom]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:30:39]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ nomsheep]]></author>
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				<title>Re:UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>ifStatement wrote:</cite>I really should stop hitting 'show this post'. </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> yeah..stopped doing that a long time ago...<br /> <br /> GG]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:38:29]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ generalgrog]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite><br /> <blockquote><div><cite>nomsheep wrote:</cite>Freedom is simply an opinion. I'm free to do what I do so I'm happy. <br /> <br /> Nom</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> That is such a conceited attitude, I'm not sure if you are serious or not. Freedom from Oppression or  separation, or denigration, or discrimination, or unjustifiable abuse, that sir, is no opinion, it is a fact , a real acts committed against fellow human beings. If you think Freedom is an opinion, you have a very strange notion of freedom. </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Yep, i'm partially serious, I'm free to be gay, smoke, drink, be racist(i'm not but i'm free to be), be jewish etc etc etc <br /> <br /> Freedoms are an opinion based on the time and place. these things are wrong but our societies are working to change them.<br /> <br /> Nom]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 13:45:50]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ nomsheep]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>Frazzled wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite>Not much OIL in Afghanistan last I checked. <br /> <br /> Fair bit in the Falklands though.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> We'll add them to the list after Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and Venezuela on Frazzled's proposed Texas "Take their Oil and their Tequila!" Tour</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> I hope you realise that the Falklands are overrun with feral ex-farmed wild Haggis. They were introduced in the 1880s, when there was a plan to supply Scottish emigres in Australia and New Zealand. <br /> <br /> Some of the Haggis escaped from their farms during the Falklands War, and have been roaming free since then. The climate is very like the Scottish Highlands and their numbers have increased to the point where Haggis hunting is one of the faster growing employments on the islands.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 14:12:00]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Kilkrazy]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>Kilkrazy wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Frazzled wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite>Not much OIL in Afghanistan last I checked. <br /> <br /> Fair bit in the Falklands though.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> We'll add them to the list after Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and Venezuela on Frazzled's proposed Texas "Take their Oil and their Tequila!" Tour</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> I hope you realise that the Falklands are overrun with feral ex-farmed wild Haggis. They were introduced in the 1880s, when there was a plan to supply Scottish emigres in Australia and New Zealand. <br /> <br /> Some of the Haggis escaped from their farms during the Falklands War, and have been roaming free since then. The climate is very like the Scottish Highlands and their numbers have increased to the point where Haggis hunting is one of the faster growing employments on the islands.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> That makes them an even better target.  As the Falklands are small and not their natural environment, we will be able to catch a few samples with only acceptable losses (say a division or two).  Thereby gaining the knowledge and power of Haggis...for Texas!  ALL YOUR HAGGIS ARE BELONG <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(421);'>TO</span> US!!!]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 14:28:13]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Frazzled]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ There have been so many of these kinds of threads lately, it's difficult to choose one to post this in.  But I think it's pretty relevant, and not only to Britain.<br /> <br /> <iframe type="text/html" width="640" height="390" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6weJcWUX18Q?autoplay=0&origin=http://www.dakkadakka.com&fs=1" frameborder="0"></iframe><br/><br /> <br /> John, like many British comic writers, is a bit of a kook, sure.  But it's worth a listen.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 14:28:18]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Manchu]]></author>
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				<description><![CDATA[ Interesting find Manchu, apart from the Condescending Media gakker at the end.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 14:40:12]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ The idea that the political establishment is queueing up to take away the British public's freedoms is utter <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(14);'>bs</span>. They're tightening up the law a bit. Deal with it.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:02:37]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Joey]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ You are asking me to trust the Government. Like when they told us there were Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq?  I lost mates there for what? To finish Bush Seniors failure the 1st time round.<br /> <br /> Why do we need this legislation? Give me an example a specific credible example? The RIPA 2000 covers it already! But we are being asked to trust the Government. The same organisation that cannot organise a bum rape in a barracks, and causes mass panic buying of petrol with bad advice. The same organisation that talks about Pasties when there are nearly 1.5million unemployed. The British Government should be concentrating on our huge deficit and giving opportunities to the unemployed youth of today. Instead of pissing money up the wall, eroding our freedoms. <br /> <br /> A good example is Christopher Tappin, extradited to the US with no evidence given, no appeal, no protection. Would an American Citizen have the same happen to them? No. The Laws all came around during the "Shoulder to Shoulder" period when Blair signed anything Bush asked for and it is now being abused. The Super-extradition piece, the compromising of our legal and military defence positions in the last 10 years has undermined any progress. We have compromised our own values with things like GITMO and assisting the US Intelligence agencies to break international law in respect to extradition and Torture.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:18:58]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite>Interesting find Manchu, apart from the Condescending Media gakker at the end.</div></blockquote>Wagner undermines himself a bit with the "no evidence that climate change is caused by humans," which will turn some people's brains off, but it's interesting to note that a lot of people don't read Dredd as parody -- and that's actually been the case all the way back to prog 1.  <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(171);'>St</span> Thomas More once said, "I can't wash the gak out of your mouth without getting it on my hands."  That's a good description of the cultural consequences of World War II, the Cold War, the War Against Terrorism, etc, etc.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:21:42]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Manchu]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite>Right Matt, don't make me get my Officer head on. You know more than most, that every time you flatten an afghan village with a JDAM everytime you kill a so called Terrorist/Jihadist/ Foreign Fighter/ or even a Taliban you literally increase the likelihood of recruiting another to the cause (equally his son's will clamour for revenge). This is not hearts and mind's, thats what they call it, but it isn't. When you "JAVE" some poor bastard afghan civvie's compound in a firefight, does he say " Thank you".  Does he walk away thinking "I like the Brits", no he's say's "It was bad under the Taliban, but they didn't blow up my bloody house, damn infidels".<br /> EDIT - MATT I wouldn't be surprised if you stay in CORP'S long enough you could be an RSM leading a Commando back into those Mountains in the 2025 - 2030 Time frame. Mark my words.<br /> <br />  </div></blockquote><br /> <br />  I was only taking the piss like mate.... I'm fully aware of the ramifications of causing casualties to civpop. I was in Northern Ireland after having it endlessly drummed into me for 18 months, and these tribal "my sons will hunt your seed for an eternity" Afghan mother fethers are a whole new ball game! <br /> <br />  On a serious note, I agree largely with the opposition to some of the new legislation, but I dare say much of it is media nonsense. I like to think that the guys on larger pay scales than me know what they are talking about reference this gak. As I said, if it makes it harder for some bloke in Leeds to email some AQ operatives in Pakistan then I think its a good idea. The bad guys know every inch of the law and they routinely feth us with it. I'm not saying we should fundamentally change our way of life, but there is a happy medium surely? ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:22:33]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mattyrm]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Yup, and the happy Medium is where we are now. GCHQ and the SIS have more than enough legislation. <br /> <br /> If you want to intercept communications, you can apply to RIPA Officer with the evidence attached, the RIPA Officer for every Organisation or Police Force can then authorise the Comms intercept (Delegated from ministerial level and then further delegated down the chain due to the very high volume of requests) and the application and paperwork retained. <br /> <br /> Therefore you need "Reasonable grounds" and "Evidence", just like any Criminal Intelligence led operation. GCHQ does alot of "other" stuff, i'm talking Y-Troop with a Global reach (which falls elsewhere within the law or not, "what the eye don't see, the heart won't feel"). <br /> <br /> This is currently the number of Government agencies able to authorise RIPA 2000 Communication intercept.<br /> <br /> 1.Any police force.<br /> 1A.The Civil Nuclear Constabulary.<br /> 2.The Serious Organised Crime Agency.<br /> 2A.The Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency<br /> 3.The National Crime Squad.<br /> 4.The Serious Fraud Office.<br /> 4A.The force comprising the special constables appointed under section 79...<br /> 4B.The force comprising the constables appointed under article 3 of...<br /> The intelligence services<br /> 5.Any of the intelligence services.<br /> The armed forces<br /> 6.Any of Her Majesty’s forces.<br /> Revenue and Customs<br /> 7.Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs.<br /> 8.The Commissioners of Inland Revenue.<br /> Government departments<br /> The Department of Energy and Climate Change.<br /> 9.The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs.<br /> 9ZA.The Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform.<br /> 9ZB.The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills.<br /> 9A.The Department for Communities and Local Government<br /> 10.The Ministry of Defence.<br /> 11.The Department for Transport. the Office of the Deputy Prime...<br /> 12.The Department of Health.<br /> 13.The Home Office.<br /> 13ZA.The Ministry of Justice<br /> 13A.The Northern Ireland Office.<br /> 14.The Department for Work and Pensions.<br /> 15.The Department of Trade and Industry.<br /> <br /> (Why the Government Departments need it is beyond me? The Police and Intelligence services, Inland revenue are the investigative branches if any Department believes there is Law breaking going on they should report it to the Police to investigate.)  Notice that the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> Borders Agency isn't on there?<br /> <br /> This new legislation will do away with this process and automatically allow any department to listen to anyone without audit, control or authority. Oh and it will allow you to have Civil trials in private with neither the defendant or defendants Legal counsel to be present, so to be able to present the court with evidence from Intelligence sources which is currently not admissible in court. You would have an ADVOCATE appointed and he would not know you, meet you or talk to you but would represent you in a blind trial. This would have stopped the British men imprisoned in GITMO from suing the British Government on their return like they did a few years ago. <br /> <br /> Now bearing in mind how often intelligence is wrong, or wide of the mark, you will be able to convict people on conjecture and/or suspicion rather than facts of the case. This is a huge change to the Legal system.<br /> <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 15:49:10]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite>You are asking me to trust the Government. </div></blockquote><br /> No I'm not. The government are bastards but they are not tyrants. They want to see what you do on your computer about as much as I do (i.e. not at all).]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 16:14:31]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Joey]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ So why do they need the legislation? It is simple laziness, they don't want to follow established procedures during investigations. They would rather circumvent these safeguards to gain speed in the investigation. Much of what they do and how they do it is so classified they cannot divulge their methods or tactics anyway in court. The realtime access without safeguards will allow even more access by SIS et al to gain access and potentially subvert your browsing? What protection have you got? There was a good example on R4 today where a woman had her WI-FI system piggy-backed (because she didn't have a password on it, silly but not illegal). Her house was raided and she had to hand over everything, she then was held for days while they interrogated her, then they discovered it was someone bouncing on to her WIFI. She never got any compensation or her Computer or Wifi router back. <br /> <br /> <blockquote class="uncited"><div>They want to see what you do on your computer about as much as I do (i.e. not at all).</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> How do you know? With the list above you are of incredible value to at least 2-3 of those government depts.<br /> <br /> I disagree, seeing peoples browsing habits has enormous value (A programme which can auto log them and look for patterns is not beyond us at this time) for things such as tailoring political campaigns, gathering real time Census confirming data etc . The information in of itself would be well worth getting hold of by an unscrupulous organisation. Having worked on Government Secure <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(484);'>IT</span> systems, they are held together by incompetents and jobsworths so it's only a matter of time.<br /> <br /> Will this be exempt from the FOI Act as well? Otherwise I would be able to request this information (which they will deny on National Security Grounds). The entire legal system is slowly being eroded by this "National Security Caveat".<br /> <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 16:32:23]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>Joey wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite>You are asking me to trust the Government. </div></blockquote><br /> No I'm not. The government are bastards but they are not tyrants. They want to see what you do on your computer about as much as I do (i.e. not at all).</div></blockquote><br /> <br />  Yeah that's my point, I can see both sides of the argument, but at the end of the day.. I don't give much of a feth if some tit is reading my boring as feth emails. If it helps stop a British born Muslim emailing a AQ operative in Helmand province, then they can read my boring ass emails as much as they want. <br /> <br />  Same with CCTV. It doesn't bother me because I don't give a feth if someone is watching me, but how many times does it help catch criminals? If some bloke is sneakily using a CCTV camera to watch grainy footage of me plugging my missus on the couch and chuckling to himself while I remain utterly ignorant of said fact I don't much care. <br /> <br />  I think the hippies that rant endlessly about civil liberties delude themselves frankly.. I heard Clegg talking about it and he said the legislation was nothing like how the press was writing it up. Ultimately I will reserve judgement until I know more about it, but realistically, how will this negatively affect law abiding citizens like me? <br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal;">Automatically Appended Next Post:</span><br /> <blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite> Having worked on Government Secure <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(484);'>IT</span> systems, they are held together by incompetents and jobsworths so it's only a matter of time.</div></blockquote><br /> <br />  This is true of course. <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0">]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 16:42:07]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mattyrm]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mattyrm wrote:</cite>If it helps stop a British born Muslim emailing a AQ operative in Helmand province</div></blockquote>It doesn't.<br /> <br /> I don't know why you think it would.<br /> <br /> You've said this statement over and over again but it's kinda delusional to think that this would actually help them at all.<br /> <br /> This is especially bad when you have government agents using the law as an excuse to steal things from people.<br /> <br /> The seedier side of the police force already does that enough through evidence seizure here in the states.<br /> <br /> Here's an example (transcript from a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(449);'>PBS</span> Frontline investigation on police corruption):<br /> <a href="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/archive/copsgobad.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(449);'>pbs</span>.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/archive/copsgobad.html</a><br /> <br /> The police seizes items, then holds them during the court proceedings, then auctions them off quietly without telling who it actually belonged to and then pocket the money.  Guilt or innocence is irrelevant.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 16:49:31]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Melissia]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mattyrm wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>Joey wrote:</cite><blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite>You are asking me to trust the Government. </div></blockquote><br /> No I'm not. The government are bastards but they are not tyrants. They want to see what you do on your computer about as much as I do (i.e. not at all).</div></blockquote><br /> <br />  Yeah that's my point, I can see both sides of the argument, but at the end of the day.. I don't give much of a feth if some tit is reading my boring as feth emails. If it helps stop a British born Muslim emailing a AQ operative in Helmand province, then they can read my boring ass emails as much as they want. <br /> <br />  Same with CCTV. It doesn't bother me because I don't give a feth if someone is watching me, but how many times does it help catch criminals? If some bloke is sneakily using a CCTV camera to watch grainy footage of me plugging my missus on the couch and chuckling to himself while I remain utterly ignorant of said fact I don't much care. <br /> <br />  I think the hippies that rant endlessly about civil liberties delude themselves frankly.. I heard Clegg talking about it and he said the legislation was nothing like how the press was writing it up. Ultimately I will reserve judgement until I know more about it, but realistically, how will this negatively affect law abiding citizens like me? <br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal;">Automatically Appended Next Post:</span><br /> <blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite> Having worked on Government Secure <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(484);'>IT</span> systems, they are held together by incompetents and jobsworths so it's only a matter of time.</div></blockquote><br /> <br />  This is true of course. <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0"></div></blockquote><br /> <br /> I wish you'd decide on a course and stick to it instead of bending in the wind due to partisan alignment. <br /> <br /> One minute (under new labour) it's 'nanny state' and 'less government'. <br /> <br /> Now (under the tory/lib lovechild) it's 'keeping us safe' and 'won't affect me guv'. <br /> <br /> I would respect your view and stance more if it didn't shift with who's in government... If the previous government had done this, you'd be screaming down the houses. <br /> <br />  <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0"> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 16:59:56]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ MeanGreenStompa]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ No... just no.<br /> <br /> The elimination of freedoms is just showing that "terrorism" and the threat there of works. Although I'm sure that the extra powers and information it will give certain people within government has nothing to do with the proposed new laws...]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:09:58]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ SilverMK2]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>SilverMK2 wrote:</cite>No... just no.<br /> <br /> The elimination of freedoms is just showing that "terrorism" and the threat there of works. Although I'm sure that the extra powers and information it will give certain people within government has nothing to do with the proposed new laws...</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Not sure what you are precisely saying no to. I follow the statement below it, just not sure what precisely you are rebuffing. Could you clarify SilverMK2, if you don't mind?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:24:52]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite>Not sure what you are precisely saying no to. I follow the statement below it, just not sure what precisely you are rebuffing. Could you clarify SilverMK2, if you don't mind?</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> I originally had a longer post, but chopped it down <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0"><br /> <br /> Basically I do not agree that any further invasion into the goings on of the general public is warrented, required or desireable. Nor do I feel that any more people than currently have it require the authority to request such invasions.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:33:44]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ SilverMK2]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Well you might be glad to known mwnciboo that there's some severe backlash from this planned legislation and even Butler said it's not a great idea. <br /> <br /> As for freedom; well, its more to do with rights. Rights to talk, eat, sleep, drive somewhere, whatever. And so far there is a severe hampering of rights for the white christian male. Eventually there will be no reason to be a white christian male because anything we did will be against our rights, because some stupid asshat thought it was a great idea to let everybody else get the upper platforms and abuse the crap out of it. ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:39:15]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Juvieus Kaine]]></author>
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				<title>Re:UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Wow, Brit, the bit about increased monitoring is really unnecessary.<br /> <br /> We've been reading your e-mail for years, and we kind of like you.  If something's up, we'll let you know.  Now, granted, we don't keep track of racists who say racist things, so that may be what you guys need to expand the monitoring for.  If so, God speed, and may your jails overflow with people who offended other people.  <br /> <br /> Other than that, though, I've always been a big proponent of secret, unaccountable tribunals.  They always work out.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:39:18]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Seaward]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>MeanGreenStompa wrote:</cite><br /> <br /> I wish you'd decide on a course and stick to it instead of bending in the wind due to partisan alignment. <br /> <br /> One minute (under new labour) it's 'nanny state' and 'less government'. <br /> <br /> Now (under the tory/lib lovechild) it's 'keeping us safe' and 'won't affect me guv'. <br /> <br /> I would respect your view and stance more if it didn't shift with who's in government... If the previous government had done this, you'd be screaming down the houses. <br /> <br />  <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0"> </div></blockquote><br /> <br />  I'm not switching around. It was yesterday when I said "Ok i changed my mind" after a post from.. I dunno.. KK or <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(494);'>MW</span> someone. I'm just feeling slightly more militant today! <br /> <br />  As I said, I can see both sides of the issue, I don't know exactly how Ill feel about it until I read the actual legislation in full, as NC was on the radio today saying it had been blown out of all proportion. <br /> <br />  I wasn't joking about not giving a feth if someone watches me with a CCTV camera though, I genuinely don't, and I wouldn't care if someone was checking my email either.. what the feth do I care about either of those things? I can see that corruption would be an issue because I don't trust the bobbies as it is, and Ive clearly conceded that the government is fething useless at this kinda thing. Im just throwing ideas out there because I don't know how I feel one way or the other at the moment. <br /> <br />  Much of what I said is tongue in cheek, and I don't think we should have our way of life changed either.. the point was simply, will it? Or is it more the media blowing it up? <br /> <br />  Regards nanny state gak, as I've said many times before.. if the government interrupts gak that I like doing, such as playing video games, getting leathered and painting minis, then clearly Ill give more of a feth. But reading emails and watching me on cameras really doesn't bother me to much, why would it affect me? ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:41:47]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mattyrm]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ It is important to care about principles though Matty - most of the decent stuff that has happened in history is due to people giving a feth about boring stuff like this.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:50:51]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Da Boss]]></author>
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				<title>Re:UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>Seaward wrote:</cite>Wow, Brit, the bit about increased monitoring is really unnecessary.<br /> <br /> We've been reading your e-mail for years, and we kind of like you.  If something's up, we'll let you know.  Now, granted, we don't keep track of racists who say racist things, so that may be what you guys need to expand the monitoring for.  If so, God speed, and may your jails overflow with people who offended other people.  <br /> <br /> Other than that, though, I've always been a big proponent of secret, unaccountable tribunals.  They always work out.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(84);'>LOL</span>  <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0">  <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0">  <img src="/s/i/a/baf5f2e54c6b17d5c5d39aecadfa1272.gif" border="0"> <br /> <br /> Cool you've got it covered.<br /> <br /> <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Well you might be glad to known mwnciboo that there's some severe backlash from this planned legislation and even Butler said it's not a great idea. </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> @Juvieus Kaine just googled that based on your info some interesting things in there, especially from the TELEGRAPH (of all  Newspapers). Interesting indeed. <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:51:23]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mattyrm wrote:</cite><br />  Regards nanny state gak, as I've said many times before.. if the government interrupts gak that I like doing, such as playing video games, getting leathered and painting minis, then clearly Ill give more of a feth. But reading emails and watching me on cameras really doesn't bother me to much, why would it affect me? </div></blockquote><br /> I agree.  They could probably catch a lot more terrorists if every computer sold came with a little unobtrusive app that provided real-time monitoring of what was done on the computer to the government.  It wouldn't interrupt games, it wouldn't interrupt painting minis, and hey, the government's incompetent anyway.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:51:48]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Seaward]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Yeah they would accidentally arrest you and send you to Gitmo....<br /> <br /> Ever seen "Brazil"...<br /> <br /> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(84);'>lol</span> <br /> <br /> *waiting for GITMO's in Cuba comment*]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 4 Apr 2012 17:59:10]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Can we presume that mwncgerygy-whatever has read the contents of this bill?]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 5 Apr 2012 00:35:27]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Albatross]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>Albatross wrote:</cite>Can we presume that mwncgerygy-whatever has read the contents of this bill?</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> I don't think he has access to spy on those email accounts yet... ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 5 Apr 2012 06:58:14]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ SilverMK2]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>mwnciboo wrote:</cite>Yeah they would accidentally arrest you and send you to Gitmo....<br /> <br /> Ever seen "Brazil"...<br /> <br /> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(84);'>lol</span> <br /> <br /> *waiting for GITMO's in Cuba comment*</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> <br />  Well you do know Alberta's kinda like GITMO, you are penned up in a camp with a bunch of other guys doing crappy work while the whole time praying for death. <img src="/s/i/a/6d3c0a908a3861135dfaebde91c0ecf6.gif" border="0"><br /> <br />   Hurry up and move to <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(389);'>BC</span>, buy the time you get here we should have the current set of crooks voted out ( of course after they sell out the province from underneath us) and be ready for the next set of crooks to screw us over. Just like anywhere else.<br /> <br />   But honestly you will love <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(389);'>BC</span> it rains 9 months out of the year here, just like home for you. =o]]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 5 Apr 2012 07:12:45]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ FabricatorGeneralMike]]></author>
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				<title>Re:UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Yes I have and here it is...<br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/cm81/8194/8194.pdf" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.official-documents.gov.<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>uk</span>/document/cm81/8194/8194.pdf</a><br /> (remember all Green papers are public documents) <br /> <br /> It's interesting that essentially they want evidence from <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(615);'>MI</span>-5 and <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(615);'>MI</span>-6 to be used in Court to bring about prosecutions. This seems logical except that, in the case of <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(615);'>MI</span>-6 in particular much of what they obtain and how they obtain it is not legal in the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> or Wider world (espionage, sabotage, spying and stealing information from foreign governments, companies being illegal). So in order to minimise implication and public compromise, they wish to present such evidence to the Court in Private. <br /> <br /> The issue that this supposedly combats is that in open Court an individual on trial might be found not guilty, yet the SIS have given their Modus Operandi and details of evidence in Open Court, for the media and public gallery as well as the individual on trial. This could (probably will) get back to the intelligence assets and compromise them and also change Terrorist and other organisations operating to change tactics and "terminate"  any security loopholes. <br /> <br /> So the Government is proposing (only in Civil Trials), is introducing a Special Advocate. Some one who will not meet you or know you, he/she will represent you in a closed Civil Trial, your Legal adivisor/ Lawyer/ Solicitor/barrister will not be allowed to be present. So now you are tried on the basis of intelligence evidence in private. <br /> <br /> So now why just Civil Trials and not Criminal Trials? The main assertion from other groups is that this is designed to prevent the British Government being liable to British Citizens held by foreign governments (read Guantanamo)  after 3 British Citizens returned and sued the British Government for ignoring them as "Non-Combatants" and allowing "Extraordinary Rendition".  This was probably going to be successful for the plaintiff, and the Government decided to settle out of court for an undisclosed sum. This was repeated in the Binyam Mohamed case. <br /> <br /> BRITISH GOVERNMENT POSITION <br /> <br /> <blockquote class="uncited"><div>Mohamed went on to join other former detainees in a civil claim for damages against the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span><br /> Government, alleging, among other things, complicity in his rendition, detention and torture.<br /> In November 2010, the parties agreed a mediated settlement, the terms of which remain<br /> confidential. The Government made no admission as to liability.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> What Actually Happened<br /> <br /> <blockquote class="uncited"><div><span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> government loses confidentiality appeal, MI5 implicated in collusion with torture<br /> The case of determining British involvement (mainly MI5 and MI6) in the unlawful treatment of a <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> resident Mohamed by the CIA, was eventually tried at court in 2009 and appealed in 2010. Despite attempts by the foreign secretary, David Miliband to suppress evidence citing such disclosure would harm national security because it was given in confidence by the US authorities, the government lost the case at the high court. On 14 December 2009, Miliband appealed against the six high court judgements ruling, that CIA information on Mohamed's treatment, and what MI5 and MI6 knew about it, must be disclosed. In a case unprecedented, counsel for the Guardian and other media organisations, Mohamed and two civil rights groups, Liberty and Justice, argued that the public interest in disclosing the role played by British and US agencies in unlawful activities far outweighs any claim about potential threats to national security.[48][49]<br /> On December 20, 2009, a U.S. judge, Gladys Kessler, found that there was "credible" evidence that a British resident was tortured while being detained on behalf of Washington. A formerly classified legal opinion, handed down by a judge in the US district court and obtained by the Observer, acknowledges that the US government does not dispute "credible" evidence that Binyam Mohamed had been tortured while being held at "its behest".[50][51]<br /> On January 27, 2010, it was reported that the "United Nations human rights investigators have concluded that the British government has been complicit in the mistreatment and possible torture of several of its own citizens during the "war on terror". Among the cases listed, in which they conclude that a state has been complicit in a secret detention, the authors highlight "the United Kingdom in the cases of several individuals, including Binyam Mohamed.[52]<br /> 	Wikinews has related news: <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> loses appeal to conceal Binyam Mohamed torture<br /> On February 10, 2010 three senior judges, sitting in the Court of Appeal, ordered the British government to reveal evidence of MI5 and MI6 complicity in the torture of Binyam Mohamed, overruling the foreign secretary, David Miliband.[53]<br /> In response to highly critical media coverage, Mr Alan Johnson, the Home Secretary, insisted that the coverage of the torture had been “baseless, groundless accusations”.[54] He also said that government lawyers had not forced the judiciary to water down criticism of MI5, despite an earlier, draft ruling by Lord Neuberger, the Master of the Rolls that the Security Service had failed to respect human rights, deliberately misled parliament, and had a "culture of suppression" that undermined government assurances about its conduct.[55]<br /> According to the Washington Post the court order forcing the British Government to publish secret memos it received from US intelligence officials will jeopardize future US-<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> intelligence sharing.[56] The Washington Post quoted "White House officials" on February 10, 2010, who said the publication: "will complicate the confidentiality of our intelligence-sharing relationship.". According to The Guardian an anonymous White House officials had told them: "the court decision would not provoke a broad review of intelligence liaison between Britain and the US because the need for close co-operation was greater now than ever."[57]<br /> At the end Mohamed received 1 million <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> pound compensation from the British government.[58]</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> So the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> has no Liability but still paid out, to draw a line under the issue (common practice). The deceit by the Security Apparatus of Government, and the deliberate falsifications and misleading of parliament is the result of the "The Ends Justify's the Means" in terms of Intelligence and I personally find this unacceptable.<br /> <br /> If the British Government had been able to present their evidence (which they cannot at the moment) they believe they wouldn't have had to pay out. So this is one of the supposed Loop Hole they are seeking to close. The issue here, is that Intelligence is not Fact. It is often fact fragments or partial facts with best guesses or probable/ likely courses of action or to use a better term "Intelligent Conjecture". This is why intelligence is sometimes misleading or plain wrong. So to allow this as a form of evidence to convict or not convict in court is dangerous because it undermines the basis of the entire legal system.<br /> <br /> @Fabricator General Mike - Good times, it rains in Wales alot (nice to know I won't miss it in Canada!).]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 5 Apr 2012 09:52:03]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:</cite>Let's be honest here. Any real terrorist worth their salt would not go within a million miles of any social network site, email or telephone service, if they are planning anything. It is too widely known that the security services can listen in.<br /> <br /> Similary, how do you guard against lone wolf attacks? You cant. This is fear mongering at its worst. <br /> <br /> It's no surprise really, freedoms have been eroded for years in Britain. The rot started with John Major, then new labour, and now these half-witted PR men pretending to be tories. </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> No what you do is you go on esoteric forum sites via a proxy and leave stego messages in your signature.<br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal;">Automatically Appended Next Post:</span><br /> @mwnciboo Oddly I have hearsay evidence that the evidence supplied in closed court is damning and not just "Intelligent Conjecture": My mother worked as a Verbatim Reporter in the High Courts and other government facilities; She told me that the evidence given in closed court is generally video, audio and gathered data that places the defendant in a location and gives recorded evidence. She also reported to me that future investigations would be jeapordised if the evidnce was seen by the wrong people (like the defendant).<br /> She was not the kind of person that wouldn't tell me if it was a scam.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 5 Apr 2012 10:11:00]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Sonophos]]></author>
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				<title>Re:UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote class="uncited"><div>I really should stop hitting 'show this post'. </div></blockquote><br /> <br /> Words to die by my friend down here.<br /> <br /> Anyways.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 5 Apr 2012 23:09:31]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Ratius]]></author>
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				<title>Re:UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ To be honest, I don't really see much wrong with hearing sensitive evidence in a closed material proceeding.  At least the evidence gets to be <i>heard</i>, which at the moment isn't possible without endangering our national security or the national security of our allies.  The USA has secret courts relating to intelligence that aren't open to public scrutiny.  It's not ideal, but how else can such evidence be heard?  I wouldn't be prepared to air sensitive intelligence information in front of terror suspects, their legal counsel, the media and members of the public.  That's just a massive breach of security, and that to me is more important than the opinions of Shami Chakrabati and the rest of her student union chums.<br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal;">Automatically Appended Next Post:</span><br /> Oh, and by the by, I wouldn't have had a problem with the Labour party doing this - it's the suggestions of collusion in kidnapping and torture, and the suspension of habeas corpus that really got my goat.  A lot of the people who presided over these (actually very serious) breaches of human rights are still on the Labour Party front-bench.  Just <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(40);'>FYI</span>.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Thu, 5 Apr 2012 23:48:36]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Albatross]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ Judging by today's headlines (on a right wing newspaper <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(70);'>IIRC</span>) then this is getting U-turned on just like the internet snooping shenanigans earlier in the week.]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Fri, 6 Apr 2012 18:46:40]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ George Spiggott]]></author>
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				<title>Re:UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ <blockquote><div><cite>Albatross wrote:</cite>To be honest, I don't really see much wrong with hearing sensitive evidence in a closed material proceeding.  At least the evidence gets to be <i>heard</i>, which at the moment isn't possible without endangering our national security or the national security of our allies.  The USA has secret courts relating to intelligence that aren't open to public scrutiny.  It's not ideal, but how else can such evidence be heard?  I wouldn't be prepared to air sensitive intelligence information in front of terror suspects, their legal counsel, the media and members of the public.  That's just a massive breach of security, and that to me is more important than the opinions of Shami Chakrabati and the rest of her student union chums.<br /> <br /> <br /> <span style="font-size: 9px; line-height: normal;">Automatically Appended Next Post:</span><br /> Oh, and by the by, I wouldn't have had a problem with the Labour party doing this - it's the suggestions of collusion in kidnapping and torture, and the suspension of habeas corpus that really got my goat.  A lot of the people who presided over these (actually very serious) breaches of human rights are still on the Labour Party front-bench.  Just <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(40);'>FYI</span>.</div></blockquote><br /> <br /> I actually agree with you on the Shami Chakrabati issue (someone who approves the LSE to get £10million Funding from the Gaddafi regime when she was on their board, and Saif gaddafi got some nice LSE Qualifications) and also the Labour government bit; this transcends Politics as it a Legal issue.The issue I have is that you are putting a considerable amount of trust in authorities outside of the Legal System. <br /> <br /> <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(615);'>MI</span>-6 are certainly not above lying, deceiving, manipulating or exploiting anything to maintain the state, and provide a degree of protection from Outside Political Interference, radicals, terrorism or foreign governments. Is it really that hard to see the temptation when Governments or the Establishment are on the ropes or a highly indefensible position to create "Intelligence Evidence" in order to belay fears or aswage potential damaging legal action no matter how valid? <br /> <br /> Examples in  the last 10 years where the <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> Government has been under extra-ordinary legal pressure from decisions, or evidence of decisions ;- <br /> <br /> 1. Extra-ordinary Rendition of <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> Citizens (illegal)<br /> 2. Complicity in Torture of <span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>UK</span> Citizens (illegal)<br /> 3. The Iraq Dossier and the 40 minute WMD claim ( bad intelligence supporting a pre-emptive strike against a nation and regime, later proved to be completely wrong)<br /> <br /> This is about Vote winning, and feeding off fear, "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" or " Fear is the mind killer, that brings slow death" take your pick, but Britian showed that you weather terrorism with stoic resolve, and not budging a inch, nor changing your social fabric during Northern Ireland in the last 40 years. You do take sensible precautions and you do use your intelligence services effectively, you do not bug the entire nation nor compromise your legal system.  Everytime the IRA struck or other Nationalist group hit us, we didn't send the RAF to bomb Dublin or Bug every home in Northern Ireland. <br /> <br /> I really think the Government will U-turn on this because the whole thing feeds off fear. The truth of the matter really is, are we mature enough as a Nation to accept that some degree of Terrorism will be always be there and it is the unfortunate truth that some innocent citizens will perish. To compromise our entire civilization in an attempt to stave off this truth, is irrational, ill-conceived and could fatally weaken the very strongest foundation of our Country, freedom?<br /> <br /> ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 8 Apr 2012 22:04:07]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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				<title>Re:UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I would take issue with the Northern Ireland thing - the British government was implicated in some pretty dodgy stuff, as well as OPENLY doing some dodgy stuff.  'Extraordinary circumstances, extraordinary measures' and all that.  I don't necessarily agree with everything the government did there, don't get me wrong, but the important thing is the outcome, and yes, I am almost psychotically pragmatic when it comes to things like that.  The end can justify the means, even if we have to hold our noses whilst applying them.<br /> <br /> The problem with terrorism is that it's not quite war and it's not quite crime - it's a grey area somewhere between both.  That means the country has to be on a state of alert, as if we were at war, but it also means that we can't just subject terrorists to summary justice (like on the battlefield, for instance) when we catch them here at home.  They have to face the full force of our laws.  The problem arises because the way we track and apprehend terrorists is usually based within an secret intelligence-based framework, which means that most if not all the evidence is sensitive, which leads to situations like this:<br /> <br /> 'The defendant was witnessed meeting persons X and Y...'<br /> <br /> Witnessed by who? 'That's classified information.'  Did they have the subject under surveillance?  'Classified information, sorry.'  Why were they there?  'Classified'.  Who are they employed by?  'Classified information.'  Why can't they testify in open court, in person? 'Classified information.'<br /> <br /> Question after question can't be answered because the answers are a national secret, to us or to our allies.  Once again, I don't <i>love</i> it, but we just have to hold our noses and get on with it.  That evidence must be able to be used, and terrorists brought to justice.   By the same token, if a suggestion is made that our intelligence services colluded in torture or kidnapping, the evidence must be used to uncover the truth, without compromising the secrecy that is vital to MI5, GCHQ and SIS.  It's a dirty business, though, no question.  <br /> <br />  ]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Sun, 8 Apr 2012 23:51:05]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ Albatross]]></author>
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				<title>UK Freedom's being erroded further.</title>
				<description><![CDATA[ I agree on the dirty business, looks like Jack Straw and Tony Blair maybe facing some difficult questions as this thing seems to be gaining momentum with the Abu Hamza case and others coming on top of the original piece I started this topic on came to light. <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17682879" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>uk</span>/news/<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>uk</span>-17682879</a><br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17651802" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>uk</span>/news/<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>uk</span>-17651802</a><br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16533867" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.bbc.co.<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>uk</span>/news/<span class="glossaryitem" onmouseover='gp(134);'>uk</span>-16533867</a><br /> <br /> I heard on R4, that Jack Straw has nothing to say, whilst William Hague has been effectively gagged as the Police Investigation began in January into complicity and/or lying to parliament. (Is lying to Parliament Contempt? I know that lying at a Commons Select Committee is chargable as contempt, because James Murdoch might have fallen foul of it in the past 12 months)]]></description>
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				<pubDate><![CDATA[Wed, 11 Apr 2012 19:00:37]]> GMT</pubDate>
				<author><![CDATA[ mwnciboo]]></author>
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