<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/14.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points) -Wings, MoT, Wind of Chaos, Bolt of Change

Tzeentch Demon Prince (205)
-Wings, MoT, Wind of Chaos, Bolt of Change

3x Chaos Terminators (115)
-1x Reaper Autcannon

3x Chaos Terminators (115)
-1x Reaper Autcannon

3x Chaos Terminators (115)
-1x Reaper Autcannon

9 Thousand Sons (8 Rubrics and 1 Sorcerer) (314)
-1x Bolt of Change
-Mounted in Rhino with Combi-Melta

9 Thousand Sons (8 Rubrics and 1 Sorcerer) (314)
-1x Bolt of Change
-Mounted in Rhino with Combi-Melta

9 Thousand Sons (8 Rubrics and 1 Sorcerer) (314)
-1x Bolt of Change
-Mounted in Rhino with Combi-Melta

Predator (130)
-1x Autocannon, 2x Lascannons

Predator (130)
-1x Autocannon, 2x Lascannons

(Total is 1957, so there's some wiggle room for upgrades and such)

I was trying to make a little bit of a different, more shooty style of Chaos Marine army. The autocannon terminators produce quite a lot of hits being twin-linked, and are pretty healthy with their 2+/5++. The predators are just cheap, but I’m not sure that Oblits wouldn’t be better…and obviously the Tzeentch Demon Princes are heros with their 4++ and BS5 Bolts!

I initially tried this list with the Sorc’s spamming Wind of Chaos, and I was trying to spam templates, but wounding on a 4+ isn’t all that great with only a single template, so you can’t really pull off the shenanigans that SoB and Ork Burnas can do with flamer templates. (I also thought of running this build with Doom Siren Noise Marines btw) In the end though, it feels like I’m lacking additional AT over infantry killing ability.

What do you all think? Can I trim any fat? Am I missing anything else? I really want to run a tough Thousand Sons list.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4226539.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4226539.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)

The list seems very good. I usually run 4 Troop units at 2000 points, but I'm not sure how you'd squeeze a fourth one in.
You'd probably have to convert to 2x Sons squads, and 2x vanilla CSM squads.

I'm not a fan of Dakka termies, but if they work for you that's cool.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4226694.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4226694.page GMT Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4226785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4226785.page GMT Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
Your army is really only able to do fairly static shooting, and doesn't pack much punch there. I think most assault armies would crush you. And most shooting armies will easily outrange and outshoot you.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4226798.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4226798.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
Mizzri wrote:Love the title

The list seems very good. I usually run 4 Troop units at 2000 points, but I'm not sure how you'd squeeze a fourth one in.
You'd probably have to convert to 2x Sons squads, and 2x vanilla CSM squads.

I'm not a fan of Dakka termies, but if they work for you that's cool.


Thousand Sons troops are pretty spendy. Those squads are over 300 points as is, but I gotta have 9 in each squad or it's not fluffy ya know? I've experimented with 5x5 T-sons squads when I was trying to spam the templates, and it might work even better with Bolt of Change 5 times, but the Inferno Bolts really work well in larger squads, especially since the T-sons don't have bp/ccw's like their CSM brethren. I've thought about trying regular CSM's but I was thinking I needed the Aspiring Sorcerers for their Bolt or Wind. I may have to try it out though, that sounds like it may give me some more bodies in the list!

Clthomps wrote:What make the Termies better than a unit of oblits?


I'm not really sure what you mean? Why do termies have to be "better" or "worse" than oblits? They aren't even in the same FoC slot. Maybe you mean the Predator vs the Oblits? I'm honestly not sure really, only that a predator is cheaper than 2 oblits, so it fits better since my T-sons are so expensive.

Kevlar wrote:Outside of the terminators and princes it doesn't look good. Those units are solid but your troops and heavy support are poor. With no possession a single glance shuts down your predators. 1ksons are way overpriced for what they provide.


Thanks for the feedback, but you aren't really giving me any alternatives? What other troops would a Thousand Sons army take besides Thousand Sons? (Besides regular CSM's of course). It "is" a T-son list afterall. What would you suggest? I'm interested to see your ideas, since I'm trying to make this as tough (yet also fluffy) as I can just to change up my repertoire a little bit.

Also, Possession isn't really all that great since it bumps your BS down to 3. It's great on a vindicator of course, but if you're saying that a shaken tank is worthless, than just about every other army has that problem besides Grey Knights.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229476.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229476.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
whitedragon wrote:Thousand Sons troops are pretty spendy. Those squads are over 300 points as is, but I gotta have 9 in each squad or it's not fluffy ya know?

Actually, you have 10 per unit, do you not? 9 Rubric Marines +1 Sorcerer = 10?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229508.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229508.page GMT Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
Your troop numbers are fine too. You either have 10 or 9, I am not sure, but they have 4+ inv so not too bad and AP3 bolters. They will be ok.

As for shaken/stunned tanks, that point is irrelevant to make about this list. That happens with every army, except Grey Knights. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229683.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229683.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
Mizzri wrote:
whitedragon wrote:Thousand Sons troops are pretty spendy. Those squads are over 300 points as is, but I gotta have 9 in each squad or it's not fluffy ya know?

Actually, you have 10 per unit, do you not? 9 Rubric Marines +1 Sorcerer = 10?


Its 9, and 1 upgraded to a Sorcerer, which is why I wrote it underneath. Sorry for the confusion.

And Mercer, I was thinking that spamming "Bolt of Change" would make up for some of the lack of shooting that Chaos has. In practice, it's AV14 that gives me problems still. I've run the terminators in a couple of different combinations, even once with an IoT for the 4++, but there aren't really enough of them to justify it. Termiciding with combi-melta is all well and good sometimes, but the termies blow their "load" and then don't have anything else to do for the rest of the game, where as at least the Autocannon fellas can shoot every turn. However, if I did "termicide", I'm thinking a Powerfist or Chainfist is mandatory even though they are a small squad.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229693.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229693.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
Unlike every other Chaos Space Marine unit, the Sorcerer is not a "+" upgrade. It is simply 60 points to buy a Sorcerer model. You will notice the absence of a "+" in front of the 60. So 9 Rubric Marines + 1 Sorcerer is in fact 10 models, not 9 with a single model upgraded like a Champion. In other words, if you want 9 models total in your unit to maintain Tzeetch fluff, you can drop a single Rubric Marine from each squad and gain back 23 points for each one.

Hope that helps.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229711.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229711.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
Mizzri wrote:That's what I thought.

Unlike every other Chaos Space Marine unit, the Sorcerer is not a "+" upgrade. It is simply 60 points to buy a Sorcerer model. You will notice the absence of a "+" in front of the 60. So 9 Rubric Marines + 1 Sorcerer is in fact 10 models, not 9 with a single model upgraded like a Champion. In other words, if you want 9 models total in your unit to maintain Tzeetch fluff, you can drop a single Rubric Marine from each squad and gain back 23 points for each one.

Hope that helps.


I'm not being very clear on "terminology" I guess. I know they aren't an "upgrade" per se, but either you pay for 9 guys and then add 37 points to make one a sorcerer, or you buy 8 guys and then 60 for the sorcerer, my intent is always that there are only 9 guys in that squad and I only paid 314 points for them as configured. (I always use magic numbers in my Chaos armies unless there are extenuating circumstances.) The total list comes to 1950ish because I'm not really sure where I want to be on tank upgrades and such yet. (Like Combi-meltas on predators for Lulz).

Rubric Marines 23x8=184
Sorcerer + Bolt 60+25=85
Rhino + Combi = 45
184+95+45=314

EDIT:
I edited the first post to make it more clear and added point costs, sorry for the confusion.

Looking forward to more feedback!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229756.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229756.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
whitedragon wrote:



And Mercer, I was thinking that spamming "Bolt of Change" would make up for some of the lack of shooting that Chaos has. In practice, it's AV14 that gives me problems still. I've run the terminators in a couple of different combinations, even once with an IoT for the 4++, but there aren't really enough of them to justify it. Termiciding with combi-melta is all well and good sometimes, but the termies blow their "load" and then don't have anything else to do for the rest of the game, where as at least the Autocannon fellas can shoot every turn. However, if I did "termicide", I'm thinking a Powerfist or Chainfist is mandatory even though they are a small squad.


TBH, how much av14 do you see about? Not a lot is the answer. Vehicles are mostly transport spam, which is av11 about or maybe av12. Also with av14, it's mostly Land Raiders, which once disgorged their cargo have limited shooting options.

I was thinking combi meltas, but I agree with you, once fired they won't do a fat lot else and it's a gamble on one shot guns - you will probably miss 1/3 anyway. A chain fist would be better option btw. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229807.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4229807.page GMT Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4230555.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4230555.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
mercer wrote:
TBH, how much av14 do you see about? Not a lot is the answer. Vehicles are mostly transport spam, which is av11 about or maybe av12. Also with av14, it's mostly Land Raiders, which once disgorged their cargo have limited shooting options.

I was thinking combi meltas, but I agree with you, once fired they won't do a fat lot else and it's a gamble on one shot guns - you will probably miss 1/3 anyway. A chain fist would be better option btw.


Deuce11 wrote:Since AV14 is what you have trouble with, the termis could be better as deep strike suicide melta. 3 unmarked termis with combi-meltas. I like to run one with a chain fist as backup but some consider it a waste.


Most of the Space Marine/Chaos players around here run at least 1 Land Raider with a big unit + Special Character in it. I'd pretty much resigned to getting assaulted by whatever pops out, but I'd really like to be able to slag the darn thing reliably without having to take a charge on the chin and counter. I'm pretty tight on points though, and I've found the Reaper termies to be pretty reliable with their autocannons, so I'm not sure I want to risk a suicide melta chosen unit or termicide, but I may have to.

Maybe I can just termicide one unit instead of all 3?

Also, I'm always struggling with whether to put the predators as far back as possible to get good fire lanes, or leading the pack as an AV13 spearhead for my rhino's to hide behind. Which do you guys think is better? I'm almost tempted to run Twin Lascannon turrets and no sponson guns just so they can actually move and shoot more.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4239762.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4239762.page GMT Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
I'm guessing you've gone with the 3x3 termies for fluff reasons? In which case, props. if you're just mix-maxing then my preference is 2x chosen squads with 3-4 meltas. Boosts your AT, but also good for whittling down deathstar units before they hit your lines. also quite cheap.

if you're sticking with the fluff, then add combi-meltas to the termies. I normally run doombolt on the Tsons squads - BoC isn't that great (you're going to sacrfice a 300 pt squad's firepower for a single BS4 shot at a tank?) I also add meltabombs as a final AT option and in case get charged by a dreadnought.

At 200 pts I think your DP's are a bit pricey. I think they'll struggle to get their points back. Consider just one power?

I think your HS is a bit light with limited ranged AT. I know you're not keen on them but Blits are the best all comers choice for a chaos army, consider 3x2 with the points you save.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4245711.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4245711.page GMT Re:Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4246353.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4246353.page GMT Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
i rarely use elites, but when i do its small squads (mainly 5) of chosen with meltas or plasmas depending on the army im playing against their ability to outflank makes them quite an annoyance for anyone who has a very mobile army and relies on their transports a lot

as for what i mentioned earlier about adding a defiler thats just my personal thing, i love using at least 1 defiler as the s9 ap3 large blast attracts quite a bit of attention and also it has fleet and dread combat weapons i couldnt ask for anything more awesome in my list for close combat support after making its way to the enemy while firing off large blasts every turn
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4246801.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4246801.page GMT Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points) HQ to become a daemon spawn and it tie up units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and it just plain funny to see the look on the opponents face.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4247369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4247369.page GMT Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
Agamenmon wrote:try gift of chaos, it is very worrying prospect for your awsome, amaing HQ to become a daemon spawn and it tie up units.

Oh and it just plain funny to see the look on the opponents face.

Only has a 33% chance of working on MEQs.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4250223.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4250223.page GMT Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points) http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4251911.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4251911.page GMT Thousand Sons that don't Tzschuk! (2000 Points)
DrChaos wrote:If your not going to run oblits and you have the points i would give the termies mark of tznnch


I don't think the Mark of Tzeentch is a good buy on small squads like I'm running. Now if I was going to run a 9 man super squad of termies I might. Those terminators are pretty much their for reliable autocannon shots.

Chosen infiltrating or outflanking are still short ranged and squishy, and if they are outflanking, then you miss at least one turn (and most likely more) of shooting, while the Autocannon terminators deploy on the board. I've thought about only running two units with Autocannons and and then one unit deepstriking with Combi-melta to get some of that valuable melta where i need it.

As for oblits vs Preds, I'll just have to try them out a few times.

I really miss the old days of Warptime/Wind, but what are ya gonna do.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4255074.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/446915/4255074.page GMT