<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Black Templars '...may be armed with...'"]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Black Templars '...may be armed with...'"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/15.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
We are not sure what to do as the book is 4th ed. I suggested he do it like codex marines, otherwise (although we do not enforce WYSIWYG 100%) he'd have to do some crazy modeling fiasco to get 3 weapons on one guy.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4242489.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4242489.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
And in general, you do not have to model a model's basic wargear. He is assumed to have it already. Upgrades are what you need to represent.

You can just model him with his chainsword and pistol holstered at his side while he's toting his Meltagun/Flamer about(and assumedly he will draw his CCWs when entering melee)]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4242501.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4242501.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
I've always assumed that any model may have at most 'two weapons, of which only one can be a two-handed weapon.' This is stated in the Wargear section, and while only some Marines are entitled to Wargear, I've accepted that as the convention when replacing/adding weapons.

That is how I play, but Grey Templar would be right. I think 3 or 4 weapons on a Space Marine is a bit ridiculous, though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4242948.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4242948.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
Initiates can be armed with:
Bolt Pistol and close combat weapon; Bolter; or any combination of the two.
Or they could be equipped with the options described therein.

It's an either/or thing. The Initiate is armed with a Bolt Pistol and close combat weapon, or Bolter, or an option as described. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4242978.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4242978.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

Mike Zulu wrote:I've always assumed that any model may have at most 'two weapons, of which only one can be a two-handed weapon.' This is stated in the Wargear section, ...

Have another look... It doesn't actually say that at all.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4242981.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4242981.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:

Mike Zulu wrote:I've always assumed that any model may have at most 'two weapons, of which only one can be a two-handed weapon.' This is stated in the Wargear section, ...

Have another look... It doesn't actually say that at all.

Yes it does, page 26: "Black Templars Armoury."

... My bad, that's not the "Wargear" section, is it?

Nevertheless, I used it as a guide because it made more sense than loading up a Space Marine with 3 or 4 weapons.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243028.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243028.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

Mike Zulu wrote:Yes it does, page 26: "Black Templars Armoury."

... My bad, that's not the "Wargear" section, is it?

I knew which part you meant... and my point stands. It doesn't say what you think it says.

The BT armoury limits how many weapons a model can select from the armoury, not how many weapons a model can have.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243033.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243033.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:

Mike Zulu wrote:Yes it does, page 26: "Black Templars Armoury."

... My bad, that's not the "Wargear" section, is it?

I'm of the same opinion on this section. Just to clarify, that would mean I can take a terminator command squad sergeant (Who has access to the armory) and give him a second power sword, correct?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243043.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243043.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

Irdiumstern wrote: Just to clarify, that would mean I can take a terminator command squad sergeant (Who has access to the armory) and give him a second power sword, correct?

That would be correct. There is nothing in the BT codex that says that you have to remove an existing weapon if you select one from the armoury.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243057.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243057.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243139.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243139.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
"Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated".

This leads to fun scenarios such as Chaplains being unable to take even a Bolt Pistol if they want to retain their Crozius Arcanum, but that's what it says.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243142.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243142.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Page 30, under "Options", last sentence:

"Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated".

This is dealing with weapons taken as upgrades in the unit entry. It has nothing to do with the Armoury.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243166.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243166.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Page 30, under "Options", last sentence:

"Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated".

This leads to fun scenarios such as Chaplains being unable to take even a Bolt Pistol if they want to retain their Crozius Arcanum, but that's what it says.

Impossible we all missed that.

But the Crozius is just a power weapon. So you're saying we'd have to pay another 15 points for a power weapon in order to take a second weapon, since the Armoury selection replaces it?

I think that the two weapons rule I mentioned before includes what they originally equipped with. Exact words are:

"Models with access to the Armoury may select up to two weapons of which only one can be a two-handed weapon."

It doesn't say "select FROM the armoury." Why can't the weapon selected already be in their profile? If not, then this leads to stupid situations where we pay for a weapon we already have (as mentioned above), if we want to add a second.

And if it didn't count for the Armoury and you just added two weapons, then other stupid situations occur, like Terminator Sergeants could be given a storm bolter, power sword and a pair of lightning claws.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243190.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243190.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Page 30, under "Options", last sentence:

"Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated".

This is dealing with weapons taken as upgrades in the unit entry. It has nothing to do with the Armoury.

And we're dealing with a Troops choice taking an upgrade from a unit entry, so what's the problem?

Furthermore, any upgrade bought from the armoury per definition is an upgrade taken from the unit entry, as that's where you get permission to take them in the first place. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243221.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243221.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...' http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243274.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243274.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...' http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243472.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243472.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

Mike Zulu wrote: Why can't the weapon selected already be in their profile?

Because you're not selecting a weapon if it's already in their profile...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:And we're dealing with a Troops choice taking an upgrade from a unit entry, so what's the problem?

I suspect that you might have missed at least last half of the thread. The talk about the armoury was a slight sidetrack.

Furthermore, any upgrade bought from the armoury per definition is an upgrade taken from the unit entry, as that's where you get permission to take them in the first place.

It's still different to the squad options like meltaguns and the like bought directly fromt he Options section in the army list, which is what the quote from page 30 is dealing with.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243475.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243475.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:It's still different to the squad options like meltaguns and the like bought directly fromt he Options section in the army list, which is what the quote from page 30 is dealing with.

I see where you're coming from and agree that that's one way to read it, but the part in the army list allowing a model to take weapons from the armoury is listed under options in the army list as well, which is what the thingie on pg. 30 is about.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243629.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4243629.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...' ccw.

For comparison, flip a page over to the Assault squad, and note how it uses the words replace. The sentence is written completely different than that of the Crusader Squad.

That is two very separate wordings pertaining to similar instances, (GW proofreading reputation aside) you have no basis to think the divide was in any way unintentional.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4244088.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4244088.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

culsandar wrote:Crusader Initiates can absolutely take a meltagun and keep their bolt pistol and ccw.

See page 30 of Codex: Black Templars, under the heading, "Army List Entries", sub-heading, "Options:". They can not keep the bolt pistol and close combat weapon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4244296.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4244296.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

ToBeWilly wrote:

culsandar wrote:Crusader Initiates can absolutely take a meltagun and keep their bolt pistol and ccw.

See page 30 of Codex: Black Templars, under the heading, "Army List Entries", sub-heading, "Options:". They can not keep the bolt pistol and close combat weapon.

So who is right? Because I am still confused.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4244775.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4244775.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
For those army list entries where the Options section just says to select from the armoury, you just select additional items from the armoury.

If you try to apply the Options blurb from page 30 to the armoury, Chaplains could never have a Crozius and a bolt pistol... the moment you select anything from the armoury, he would lose his Crozius.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4245081.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4245081.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

ToBeWilly wrote:

culsandar wrote:Crusader Initiates can absolutely take a meltagun and keep their bolt pistol and ccw.

See page 30 of Codex: Black Templars, under the heading, "Army List Entries", sub-heading, "Options:". They can not keep the bolt pistol and close combat weapon.

By that logic every unit in the codex that takes grenades lose their starting weaponry, as grenades are listed under options and have the same caveat "may be equipped/armed". Or as the above example a Chaplain would lose his Crozius. You think it coincidence that the Terminator Command Squad, Terminator Squad, Dreadnought, Assault Squad, Land Speeder, Bike Squadron, and Attack Bike Squadron use the words "exchange" and/or "replace"; while the Sword Brethren, Command Squad, and Crusader Squad use the term "may be equipped/armed"?

Be that as it may, you're reading page 30 wrong. It specifically mentions "If a squad is allowed to have models with upgrades...", and then "Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated." According to codex, the only units allowed to take "Upgrades" is Dreadnoughts (gun arms), Techmarines (servo-harness), Land Speeders (Tornado/Typhoon), and the Command Squad (Standard Bearer, Company Champion, Apothecary). There is no mention of the word "Upgrade" in the Crusader Squad entry. If you are attempting to apply the blanket term "Upgrade" to anyone that takes a listing from the Options section of their entry, whilst there are clear entries actually labeled Upgrade in the book, you have a poor argument.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4245881.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4245881.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...' FAQ'd]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4245982.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4245982.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
If a unit entry includes weapons upgrades in the Options section, and a models takes one of those upgrades, they lose their original weapons unless the entry specifically says otherwise as per page 30.

If a model selects weapons from the armoury, they don't.

It's that simple.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246066.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246066.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

culsandar wrote:By that logic every unit in the codex that takes grenades lose their starting weaponry, as grenades are listed under options and have the same caveat "may be equipped/armed". Or as the above example a Chaplain would lose his Crozius. You think it coincidence that the Terminator Command Squad, Terminator Squad, Dreadnought, Assault Squad, Land Speeder, Bike Squadron, and Attack Bike Squadron use the words "exchange" and/or "replace"; while the Sword Brethren, Command Squad, and Crusader Squad use the term "may be equipped/armed"?

Be that as it may, you're reading page 30 wrong. It specifically mentions "If a squad is allowed to have models with upgrades...", and then "Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated." According to codex, the only units allowed to take "Upgrades" is Dreadnoughts (gun arms), Techmarines (servo-harness), Land Speeders (Tornado/Typhoon), and the Command Squad (Standard Bearer, Company Champion, Apothecary). There is no mention of the word "Upgrade" in the Crusader Squad entry. If you are attempting to apply the blanket term "Upgrade" to anyone that takes a listing from the Options section of their entry, whilst there are clear entries actually labeled Upgrade in the book, you have a poor argument.

Grenades are not listed in any of the unit entries as a weapon. So this is irrelevant. Only models who take an upgrade weapon will lose its original weapons. And those items are clearly listed as weapons in the "Options" part of the unit entry. Which, is what page 30 is trying to describe; an upgrade weapon taken from the "Options" section of the unit entry. If you have access to the Armoury, you are not taking an upgrade weapon from the "Options" section of the unit entry. You are taking it from the Armoury, which has it's own rules (see page 26 for those). Your whole "upgrade" argument, I don't understand. If you are taking a weapon listed in the "Options" section of the unit entry, and paying more points for that weapon, isn't that by definition, an upgrade? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246109.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246109.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
All of this other mumbo-jumbo crap is confusing me and not furthering the topic of my original post.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246277.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246277.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

Jstncloud wrote:So basically, the guys I am asking about, because it says "may be armed with" or whatever and not "exchange, replace, etc" the addition weapon is in addition to their normal gear, right?

Nope. As per page 30, if it doesn't actually specify that they keep their original weapons, the upgrade weapon replaces them.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246293.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246293.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

ToBeWilly wrote:Only models who take an upgrade weapon will lose its original weapons. And those items are clearly listed as weapons in the "Options" part of the unit entry. Which, is what page 30 is trying to describe; an upgrade weapon taken from the "Options" section of the unit entry.

This part is correct.

ToBeWilly wrote:If you are taking a weapon listed in the "Options" section of the unit entry, and paying more points for that weapon, isn't that by definition, an upgrade?

This part is not. This is what I was describing. You are reading the word "upgrade" on page 30 and applying it falsely and out of context to any unit that takes a weapon listed under their individual Options heading. That is incorrect. Under every entry I listed, there are clearly worded examples of the use of the word "upgrade".

1.) A Crusader Initiate equipped with a meltagun is not an upgrade, hence him not losing his normal armament because it does not use the words replace and/or exchange.

2.) A Command Squad member upgraded to an Company Champion is an upgrade, hence him losing his normal armament and gaining the listed power weapon, combat shield, and bolt pistol.

See the difference now?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246729.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246729.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...' http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246747.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246747.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:No, you're creating a distinction that isn't actually present in the rules.

Which part are you denying? The part where it says upgrade on page 30? Or the part where it says upgrade on the entries themselves? Because those are both present in the rules. What actually isn't present in the rules is taking the term upgrade from page 30 and blanket applying it to any entry that has an options heading. Weapon option =/= weapon upgrade I'm afraid, a distinction noted in the codex. Are you reading the same codex as I?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246753.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246753.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
Unit entries include an Options section. That section includes upgrade weapons that the unit can select. Selecting one of those upgrades replaces the model's original weapons.

It's that simple.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246778.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246778.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:No, you're complicating the issue more than it needs to be.

Unit entries include an Options section. That section includes upgrade weapons that the unit can select. Selecting one of those upgrades replaces the model's original weapons.

It's that simple.

The way it reads is less complicating than that. Where do you see the word upgrade in the entry for a Crusader Squad? You are creating a bridge there for a river that doesn't exist. A unit entry that says upgrade is an upgrade. A unit entry that doesn't say upgrade is not an upgrade. How is this complicating? How is this not simple?

Read page 30 again.

BT pg 30, Options heading wrote:This lists the different weapon and equipment options for the unit and any additional points cost for taking these options.

Full stop. This is the only part of that paragraph applying to Crusader Squads and meltaguns.

BT pg 30, Options heading wrote:If a squad is allowed to have models with upgrades... Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was orginally armed with unless otherwise stated.

Upgrade is a physical term in ink used throughout the codex in the entries I describe. Each use of the term upgrade more than fulfills the requirements placed on pg 30. You are incorrectly applying the second half of that paragraph to anything that takes an option from it's unit entry. No where in the book does it tell you to do so. It tells you that only upgrade weapons replace their originals. Again;

Culsandar wrote:1.) A Crusader Initiate equipped with a meltagun is not an upgrade, hence him not losing his normal armament because it does not use the words replace and/or exchange.

2.) A Command Squad member upgraded to an Company Champion is an upgrade, hence him losing his normal armament and gaining the listed power weapon, combat shield, and bolt pistol.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246804.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246804.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

culsandar wrote:pg 30. You are incorrectly applying the second half of that paragraph to anything that takes an option from it's unit entry.

Not quite. I'm applying the statement on page 30 to anything that comes from the 'Options' section in the army list entry, because that's what page 30 says to do.

This:

2.) A Command Squad member upgraded to an Company Champion is an upgrade, hence him losing his normal armament and gaining the listed power weapon, combat shield, and bolt pistol.

... is not what the section on page 30 is referring to. It is talking about the 'Options' section of the list entry. The upgrade to turn a command squad member into a Company Champion doesn't come from that section.

So yes, the Company Champion is an upgrade. But not the sort of upgrade that the 'Options' section on page 30 is talking about. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246899.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246899.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:Not quite. I'm applying the statement on page 30 to anything that comes from the 'Options' section in the army list entry, because that's what page 30 says to do.

You keep saying this, but the book does not tell you to do so. Page 30 tells you an 'orange is an orange'. You are implying it reads 'every fruit is an orange'. Not the case.

insaniak wrote:This:

2.) A Command Squad member upgraded to an Company Champion is an upgrade, hence him losing his normal armament and gaining the listed power weapon, combat shield, and bolt pistol.

... is not what the section on page 30 is referring to. It is talking about the 'Options' section of the list entry. The upgrade to turn a command squad member into a Company Champion doesn't come from that section.

So yes, the Company Champion is an upgrade. But not the sort of upgrade that the 'Options' section on page 30 is talking about.

Come again? Did you just say an upgrade isn't an upgrade? So the line in the Dreadnought entry about upgrading an Assault Cannon to a Lascannon or Multi-melta isn't an upgrade? But "may be armed with" is an upgrade?

I see the stance you are arguing from, but the text disagrees with you. It specifically mentions the word upgrade. Not option, not weapon, not equipment, just upgrade. If there was no other mention of the word upgrade anywhere in the codex's option entries, your stance might be relevant. Again, not the case.

Edit: argh spelling.

Edit2: Just noticed it's taken me 3 years to get "been around the block" @ 50 posts. Lurk much?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246935.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4246935.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...' An upgraded model is not an upgraded weapon taken from the "Options" section of the unit entry. Again, the rule in question, "Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated.", is specifically dealing with the "Options" section of the unit entry. As described on page 30. Why are you insisting that this affect every section of the unit entry? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4247493.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4247493.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...' -Exchange
-Replace
-Armed with

We are treating all of those the same? Because there are examples of all three in the codex.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4247888.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4247888.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

Jstncloud wrote:So the fact there are the following in the book:
-Exchange
-Replace
-Armed with

We are treating all of those the same? Because there are examples of all three in the codex.

I'm not sure I understand your question. We are treating them as context tells us to treat them.

If you exchange a weapon for a different one, then you exchange the weapon.
If you replace a weapon with a different weapon, then it is replaced.
If you are armed with a weapon, then you are armed with it.

The specific unit entry tells you exactly which you do. I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are confused about. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4248214.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4248214.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

culsandar wrote:Come again? Did you just say an upgrade isn't an upgrade?

No, I didn't. I just said that the upgrades that you're talking about aren't the upgrades that are relevant to this discussion.

Go have another look at page 30. You have misconstrued what it is talking about in the 'Options' section.

The section under discussion is breaking down the layout of the army list entries and explaining some of the sections within the entries. The bit about upgrade weapons replacing original gear is specifically referring to upgrade weapons selected from within the 'Options' section of the army list entry. The upgrades that you're talking about are not... they're a completely separate thing.

Jstncloud wrote:So the fact there are the following in the book:
-Exchange
-Replace
-Armed with

We are treating all of those the same? Because there are examples of all three in the codex.

Yes. Because page 30 tells us that the entry needs to specifically state that they keep their original gear, otherwise it is replaced by the upgrade weapon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4248524.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4248524.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:So basically, the guys I am asking about, because it says "may be armed with" or whatever and not "exchange, replace, etc" the addition weapon is in addition to their normal gear, right?

Nope. As per page 30, if it doesn't actually specify that they keep their original weapons, the upgrade weapon replaces them.

Even if the weapon does not state that it is an upgrade? This is my problem. I've looked at other references, such as HQs for example, and in the codex marine book it is possible to load a bunch of gear on some characters and to choose between what weapon to swing with, those purchase did not say 'replace' or 'exchange' they were just purchases. Perhaps it is because this codex is old but I am still confused, why would some units say exchange and replace but another utilize the word 'may be armed with?'
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249553.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

Jstncloud wrote:Even if the weapon does not state that it is an upgrade?

In most cases, the weapons you're swapping are bolters, or bolt pistols and close combat weapons. Anything that they take instead of that is going to be an upgrade, since Marines don't have any lighter weaponry.

The age of the codex is why other Marines do it differently. Once upon a time, they all worked pretty much the same as the BT book. Now, they just have a list of stuff to select from instead.

As to the inconsistent wording, welcome to Warhammer 40K 4th edition. That was the biggest killer for the game throughout late 3rd edition/most of 4th... the complete and utter disregard for consistent and tight rules-writing made the game an absolute mess to play.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249569.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249569.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:Even if the weapon does not state that it is an upgrade?

Thanks]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249616.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249616.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

ToBeWilly wrote:@culsandar
An upgraded model is not an upgraded weapon taken from the "Options" section of the unit entry. Again, the rule in question, "Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated.", is specifically dealing with the "Options" section of the unit entry. As described on page 30. Why are you insisting that this affect every section of the unit entry?

I'm not insisting that at all. What I'm insisting is that when it speaks of "upgrade weapon" it is specifically referring to the few entries in the codex that actually have the word "upgrade" in Options section. I have not discussed any part of the entry other than the Options section.

@Insaniak: But they aren't a completely separate thing. That section talks about upgrades in the Options section. There are documented instances throughout the book that list the word upgrade, again in the Options section. Concluding that replace/exchange/armed with is the same as upgrade, when there are actual entries using the term upgrade, is misconstrued.

Culsandar wrote:Page 30 tells you an 'orange is an orange'. You are implying it reads 'every fruit is an orange'.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249623.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249623.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

culsandar wrote:

ToBeWilly wrote:@culsandar
An upgraded model is not an upgraded weapon taken from the "Options" section of the unit entry. Again, the rule in question, "Any model who takes an upgrade weapon loses the weapon he was originally armed with unless otherwise stated.", is specifically dealing with the "Options" section of the unit entry. As described on page 30. Why are you insisting that this affect every section of the unit entry?

Culsandar wrote:Page 30 tells you an 'orange is an orange'. You are implying it reads 'every fruit is an orange'.

Sweet more confusion, is this something that the player group should just make a house rule for then, because the back and forth is not really getting anywhere '100%']]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249712.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249712.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

culsandar wrote:@Insaniak: But they aren't a completely separate thing.

Go have a look at the command squad entry. See how the option to upgrade a model to a Cmpany Champion is not under the 'Options' heading?

A reference on page 30 to how to apply upgrades taken from the Options section applies to upgrades taken from the Options section. Upgrades taken from elsewhere have absolutely no bearing on the issue whatsoever.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249720.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249720.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:

culsandar wrote:@Insaniak: But they aren't a completely separate thing.

The command squad is technically listed under "Specialists", which there is no section for on page 30. But are you implying that those models keep their original wargear even if they take those upgrades, simply because it isn't listed under the options section? For example, the Company Champion keeps his bolter, in addition to gaining the power weapon, combat shield, and bolt pistol?

That also doesn't change the other entries that have upgrade in the options section. For example, look at the Dreadnought. There is use of the word upgrade and replace in the options section. Why the difference? We have to assume the difference is intentional, because there is a difference. This is not the place to discuss intentions.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249766.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249766.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
The OP asked if a Black Templar Crusader Squad model who takes an optional weapon gets to keep it's original weapon(s). I'm saying no, they may not keep their original weapon(s). As per page 30.

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culsandar wrote:The command squad is technically listed under "Specialists", which there is no section for on page 30. But are you implying that those models keep their original wargear even if they take those upgrades, simply because it isn't listed under the options section? For example, the Company Champion keeps his bolter, in addition to gaining the power weapon, combat shield, and bolt pistol?

No, I'm not addressing the Company Champion at all because, yet again, they are nothign to do with the topic at hand.

The discussion is solely about selecting weapons from the 'Options' section of the army list entry.

We have to assume the difference is intentional, because there is a difference.

We really don't, for the reasons I already mentioned. Anyone who played through 4th edition would be well aware of just how little attention GW paid to consistent wording during that period.

Besides which, using different language doesn't automatically mean the outcome is different. If I say now that I'm going outside in 10 minutes, and then 5 minutes later say that I'm on my way out the door in 5 minutes, the action remains the same despite me describing it two different ways.

In this case, GW didn't label all of the weapons options as upgrades... but by any sensible definition of the word, trading in a boltgun for a plasma gun is upgrading your weapon. The fact that some entries use the specific word 'upgrade' and others don't doesn't change that.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249816.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4249816.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:
In this case, GW didn't label all of the weapons options as upgrades... but by any sensible definition of the word, trading in a boltgun for a plasma gun is upgrading your weapon. The fact that some entries use the specific word 'upgrade' and others don't doesn't change that.

My friend who constantly rolls 1s considers plasma guns to be more of a sidegrade or even downgrade.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4250046.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4250046.page GMT Re:Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:

culsandar wrote:The command squad is technically listed under "Specialists", which there is no section for on page 30. But are you implying that those models keep their original wargear even if they take those upgrades, simply because it isn't listed under the options section? For example, the Company Champion keeps his bolter, in addition to gaining the power weapon, combat shield, and bolt pistol?

We have to assume the difference is intentional, because there is a difference.

Actually the topic was about their troop choice taking upgrades that said 'armed with' not specifically the Pg30 stuff,seems everyone has read all of that already.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4250352.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4250352.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...' http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4250806.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4250806.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:That's just it though... The 'page 30 stuff' is exactly what answers the question.

Could you sum up in one post the ins and outs of this, just to get the final verdict please.

I understand the intent seems to be that upgrades work like the upgrades typically do for units in the SM codex, however, there were some examples in the thread about HQ's and so forth who would be hindered if they took certain weapons or something to that nature. There was also an issue presented in regards to grenades.

Basically, looking for an in depth post that explains the ruling being made and covers the other loophole concerns that have been expressed in the thread. Some guys I play with in real life have been shown this thread and one of them is the guy who presented the issue in my original post, he plays BTs and I'd like to present him with a ruling that has support and is concise. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4252212.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4252212.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...' http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4252621.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4252621.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

Jstncloud wrote:Could you sum up in one post the ins and outs of this, just to get the final verdict please.

insaniak wrote:If a unit entry includes weapons upgrades in the Options section, and a model takes one of those upgrades, they lose their original weapons unless the entry specifically says otherwise as per page 30.

If a model selects weapons from the armoury, they don't.

The only thing to add to that is that the page 30 restriction can't apply to the armoury, even though characters with access to the armoury have that access listed in their Options section, because that would lead to silliness like Chaplains not being able to have a second weapon if they wish to retain their crozius.

You could technically make a case for taking grenades replacing your bolter... if you were inclined towards making argument for the sake of argument, since it wouldn't stand on the table against any sensible opponent. The counter would be that in the current rules, frag and krak grenades aren't really weapons other than against vehicles, and that they're quite clearly not what page 30 is referring to when it talks about upgrade weapons.

Ultimately, the rules aren't as clear here as they probably should be, because the codex was written at a time when GW weren't too bothered about writing clear rules, working on the assumption that people would just figure out what they meant. But even with that, in this particular case it's not too difficult to see what they were going for.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4252746.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4252746.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:Could you sum up in one post the ins and outs of this, just to get the final verdict please.

insaniak wrote:If a unit entry includes weapons upgrades in the Options section, and a model takes one of those upgrades, they lose their original weapons unless the entry specifically says otherwise as per page 30.

If a model selects weapons from the armoury, they don't.

So if they take an option "may be armed with" the player would choose to replace the CCW or Pistol correct? (Just like SW, SM, BA, and DA do).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4256494.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4256494.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'
Squads that have any of the 'may be armed with' options would replace whatever weapons they started with. So in the case of the Sword Brethren squad, for example, whether you equip them initially with a bolter or with a pistol/CCW, giving one of them a flamer gives him just a flamer. The bolter or the pistol/CCW is lost.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4256895.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4256895.page GMT Black Templars '...may be armed with...'

insaniak wrote:No. Squads like the Assault Squad, who have the specific option to replace a single weapon for the upgrade, can do so.

Squads that have any of the 'may be armed with' options would replace whatever weapons they started with. So in the case of the Sword Brethren squad, for example, whether you equip them initially with a bolter or with a pistol/CCW, giving one of them a flamer gives him just a flamer. The bolter or the pistol/CCW is lost.

Thanks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4257400.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/447656/4257400.page GMT