Yori wrote:Offtopic but, daamn Chowderhead I love that signature, Joffrey getting smacked by Tirion brings a tear of joy to my eye.

Tadashi wrote:Assuming the Tau get around their problems with FTL (unlikely, but not impossible) and start aggressively expanding, and also assuming the Imperium doesn't do anything as they are too focused on Chaos and the Tyranids, to the point that the status quo in Ultima Segmentum starts to change, how would the Eldar react? Would they stand by and watch? Would they interfere against the Tau?

jareddm wrote:The advantage of the Tau is in their potential. Of course they could be crushed if the Imperium wanted to risk looking away from Ork Waaghs and Tyranid Hivefleets for long enough to do it. But they won't. And so the Tau will continue to advance relatively unopposed.

Take for example the first time Tau encountered a Titan. They got their asses handed to them. But they thought about the problem, got some earth castes on the job and within an extremely short time, they had the Tiger Shark. Which is pretty damn effective at taking on titans.

I have no doubt that if the Tau ever saw the size of a true Imperial fleet, they'd lose a few planets, but would immediately start working on something to neutralize that advantage.
Whether or not the Eldar would appreciate this change is difficult to know.

1hadhq wrote:
3) the Eldar are too busy keeping an eye on the rising Necrons...

Iranna wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
3) the Eldar are too busy keeping an eye on the rising Necrons...

I think that's more Alaitoc, many of the other Craftworlds have "forgotten" their duty of keeping the Necrons in check.

Iranna.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Wasn't all that retconn'd with the coming of newcrons anyway? Since the C'tan aren't awakening and stuff.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Iranna wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
3) the Eldar are too busy keeping an eye on the rising Necrons...

I think that's more Alaitoc, many of the other Craftworlds have "forgotten" their duty of keeping the Necrons in check.

Iranna.

Wasn't all that retconn'd with the coming of newcrons anyway? Since the C'tan aren't awakening and stuff.

razor5647 wrote:If the tau ever managed to get a look at a large imperial fleet it would be during the crusade that destroys them. The tau may be able to create some tech that gives them an advantage but there is only so much xeno tech can do against billions of soldiers, lots of marine chapters, and full titan legions. If the imperium decides to launch a full scale crusade against the tau no innovation is going to save them.

jareddm wrote:

razor5647 wrote:If the tau ever managed to get a look at a large imperial fleet it would be during the crusade that destroys them. The tau may be able to create some tech that gives them an advantage but there is only so much xeno tech can do against billions of soldiers, lots of marine chapters, and full titan legions. If the imperium decides to launch a full scale crusade against the tau no innovation is going to save them.

You say that, but I don't see how the development of a good, large-scale EMP-esque weapon couldn't shut down Imperial ships before they reach orbit. Or at the very least, force a bottleneck. We have no way of knowing what the Tau will develop in the next 500 to 1,000 years, but the point is that other than the Orks, they're one of the only races that will develop. If the resourcefulness they've shown so far continues, they have some pretty high potential.

Iranna wrote:

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

Wasn't all that retconn'd with the coming of newcrons anyway? Since the C'tan aren't awakening and stuff.

Looking through the Necron codex, I'd say it's even more emphasised; every story involving eldar fighting Necrons have them pitted against Alaitoc. With Alaitoc always losing. Sigh.

Iranna.

Brother Coa wrote:I just know that Tau will have their hands full in the 42'nd millennium as small Ork infestation on their borders ( War of Dakka ) is threatening to became full scale Ork WARGHH the size of Armageddon one.
Necrons started to awakening and form their mini-empires in close proximity to Tau borders, that will not go well at all.
Tyranids are still active and Tau must learn new strategies if they want to survive next encounter ( they probably won't have Imeprium to save them again )

However, the Tau real problem would be some highly ambitious Imperial commander if he decide to seek fame and glory and form a true crusade army to attack the Tau. Solar did that same thing and in the end whole worlds came under his troops. Tau may push them back but only for so long as Tau don't have manpower to oppose the large number of Regiments someone may use agaisnt them.

Brother Coa wrote:Nobody knows, we only know that for now it's Farsight alone who is battling them and that the Ork numbers are growing.

The Farsight info comes from codex Orks 4'th edition, I don't know for other version of the story.

The most hilarious thing about this whole story is that Orks actually looted Tau guns and are using them against Tau

Nagashek wrote:"Kor'o Akb'ar, they've reached T'au! We can't retreat!"
The old Kor gritted his teeth, his attenuated face flushing a deeper blue gray. His eyes seemed to bulge, his voice gurgling slightly as he bristled at the situation. "We have no choice El'Kalriss'i'an!" he directed at the Manta commander. "Our fleet can't repel firepower of that magnitude!" O'Akb'ar, veteran of a thousand battles looked around at his displays, quickly calculating the amount of time the small, hand picked task force sent to the verdant arborial satillite to destroy the enemy's shields. The Manta commander's channel chimed again urgently.
"El'Hana will get that shield down. You've got to give him more time!"

vodo40k wrote:Has anybody heard this rumour of the fluff change in 6th ed? Namely it "turns out" through new knowledge that the tau were a race known to the Emperor to be utterly immune to the forces of chaos and thus instructed the Astartes to defend them until it was "their time" to fight chaos.

That would certainly screw up opinions within the imperium and Eldar regarding the Tau.

razor5647 wrote:

jareddm wrote:The advantage of the Tau is in their potential. Of course they could be crushed if the Imperium wanted to risk looking away from Ork Waaghs and Tyranid Hivefleets for long enough to do it. But they won't. And so the Tau will continue to advance relatively unopposed.

Take for example the first time Tau encountered a Titan. They got their asses handed to them. But they thought about the problem, got some earth castes on the job and within an extremely short time, they had the Tiger Shark. Which is pretty damn effective at taking on titans.

I have no doubt that if the Tau ever saw the size of a true Imperial fleet, they'd lose a few planets, but would immediately start working on something to neutralize that advantage.
Whether or not the Eldar would appreciate this change is difficult to know.

If the tau ever managed to get a look at a large imperial fleet it would be during the crusade that destroys them. The tau may be able to create some tech that gives them an advantage but there is only so much xeno tech can do against billions of soldiers, lots of marine chapters, and full titan legions. If the imperium decides to launch a full scale crusade against the tau no innovation is going to save them.

KingDeath wrote:It is also untrue that the Tau Empire never had to face a large crusade, it faced a part of the huge Achilus Crusade and apparently survived.

Jefffar wrote:
There is a general lack of Tau vs Eldar (well Craftworld Eldar) incidents documented in the fluff.

razor5647 wrote:If the tau ever managed to get a look at a large imperial fleet it would be during the crusade that destroys them. The tau may be able to create some tech that gives them an advantage but there is only so much xeno tech can do against billions of soldiers, lots of marine chapters, and full titan legions. If the imperium decides to launch a full scale crusade against the tau no innovation is going to save them.

Anfauglir wrote:

razor5647 wrote:If the tau ever managed to get a look at a large imperial fleet it would be during the crusade that destroys them. The tau may be able to create some tech that gives them an advantage but there is only so much xeno tech can do against billions of soldiers, lots of marine chapters, and full titan legions. If the imperium decides to launch a full scale crusade against the tau no innovation is going to save them.

Which is a pretty moot point, seeing as the IoM couldn't possibly hope to launch a Crusade big enough to wipe the Tau Empire from the stars with how thin they are spread. The Tau don't need to be a major threat to the Imperium, on the contrary, being beneath the radar while all the bigger boys duke it out can and will only aid them while they further establish themselves.

King Pariah wrote:. I really believe the Tau should be able to currently move around at a comparable speed to the Imperium.

Tadashi wrote:And what will they do when the gods turn their attention on the Tau?

Anfauglir wrote:

Tadashi wrote:And what will they do when the gods turn their attention on the Tau?

Umm, the same thing all the other races do? I need a more specific scenario if you want a more specific response...

Tadashi wrote:Let's see...with the Tau begin to spread explosively across the galaxy, the Greater Good reaches a threat equal to that of the Imperial Truth - the Great Game is suspended once again, and the Four Powers unite as one, targeting the more receptive subject races of the Tau, disrupting the Tau Empire from within. As the Empire crumbles from within, the vengeful Imperium takes advantage and drives the weakened Tau and their tainted former subjects in a bloody path of destruction out of the Astronomican's area.

Anfauglir wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Let's see...with the Tau begin to spread explosively across the galaxy, the Greater Good reaches a threat equal to that of the Imperial Truth - the Great Game is suspended once again, and the Four Powers unite as one, targeting the more receptive subject races of the Tau, disrupting the Tau Empire from within. As the Empire crumbles from within, the vengeful Imperium takes advantage and drives the weakened Tau and their tainted former subjects in a bloody path of destruction out of the Astronomican's area.

So, your proposal is that, once the Tau grow past a certain threshold, everything going down on the other side of the galaxy just... stops. Then, Chaos (?) exclusively target the Tau, followed by the Imperium, wiping them from the stars. Yeah... no. Moot point once again. The eternal state of the galaxy will never allow that to happen. If and when the Tau ever reach that threshold to suddenly threaten the IoM on such a scale, their response will be; "oh ****, look what happened over there while we weren't looking... now it's too late to act effectively against them even if we did have the means (which we don't)".

Tadashi wrote:What do you mean it's too late? Billions of Guardsmen and entire Chapters and Titan Legions marching to meet the Tau along with entire Battlefleets, not to mention the Inquisition priming entire fleets with cyclonic torpedoes and virus bombs - not to mention radicals making deals with Chaos warbands and Dark Eldar pirates - the Tau aren't gonna stand a chance. Not to mention the irritated gods pulling open reality at the rear of the Tau Empire once their committed against the Imperium to allow daemons and such to feast on the of the Tau Empire.

Anfauglir wrote:
There is a Great Bear. The Bear is very large and very powerful. However, the Bear is surrounded by several Wolves. The number of Wolves block any avenue of escape for the Bear. What's more, the Bear's movement is additionally hindered by its own Shadow, which grapples and claws at its feet, preventing the Bear from focusing fully on the Wolves. The Wolves periodically rush the Bear, snapping and snarling as they place superfluous wounds on the great beast. The Bear swings it's powerful paws at them, batting them away, but unable to follow through with lethal strikes. Some of the Wolves scrap among themselves, allowing the Bear some much needed respite. Also, some of the Wolves also get ensnared by the Great Bear's Shadow. The Bear notices another Wolf, a tan coloured one, lingering on the outskirts of the pack. This is neither the largest or most threatening of the Wolves, and it too scraps among some of the others. The Bear, whilst it could easily kill any of these Wolves on their own, including the tan one at the back, cannot attempt any such action. For example, if the Bear were to suddenly make a break for the tan Wolf, whilst the immense power of its paws and jaw would crush the lesser beast, all the other Wolves and the Bear's own Shadow would dive on the Bear's back, bring it to the ground, and finally land several mortal blows upon it.

Anfauglir wrote:

I'll repeat; the only way the Imperium will be able to level the amount of military might needed to sufficiently and permanently destroy the Tau is if it abandons several of its other fronts. Meaning? The other threats baying and circling descend upon and tear apart the already overextended and fragile defensive line holding the IoM together.

1hadhq wrote:Sorry but the way the IoM had more important buisness wasn't because it couldn't do it but the usual plot armor of a young race.

Plus, where has the "royal rumble" situation of this eternal war its place in your visualization?
Methinks some people like this idea of overextended lines too much. When every faction is a possible threat to each other, there is no room for this singular aim at the IoM.

Melissia wrote:I very much imagine that GW will have the Tau face off against a real threat from Chaos in sixth edition, I wonder how that will go.

If the tau ever managed to get a look at a large imperial fleet it would be during the crusade that destroys them. The tau may be able to create some tech that gives them an advantage but there is only so much xeno tech can do against billions of soldiers, lots of marine chapters, and full titan legions. If the imperium decides to launch a full scale crusade against the tau no innovation is going to save them.

1hadhq wrote:

Sorry but the way the IoM had more important buisness wasn't because it couldn't do it but the usual plot armor of a young race .

darkcloud92 wrote:I would say it is not so much that the Imperium couldn't take out the Tau, hell as it is right now almost any race could stand to take out one of the others under the right circumstances, and with a little bit of luck. The problem lies in the cost of it.

So as I was saying the Imperium could take out the currently flourishing Tau empire, but the cost would be to high at the moment.

Anfauglir wrote:

Which is complete bull. Saying "if they really need to" is tantamount to saying they already have the capacity to wipe out the Tau... yet have refrained from doing so... because? Because what? They can't be bothered? They just don't feel like it at the moment? No, what nonsense. The can't without destroying themselves too, or they would have done it already. Simple as that.

Tadashi wrote:They don't feel the need to because the Tau are a frontier threat. It's called prioritizing. If the Tau cease to be one, then the Tau get priority. At which point, it's game over for those fish-faced xenos.

Anfauglir wrote:

Not entirely sure what it is you're saying here, but I'll reply by reiterating (yet again) that the IoM is simply facing too many threats on too many fronts to appropriately address the (comparatively far away and minor) threat of the Tau, whether you choose to interpret that as "plot armour" or not. That's the simple fact of the galactic situation. If that's the case, then each and every race has the exact same plot armour, as the perpetual stalemate between each and every faction is what keeps GW's wargaming setting, a wargaming setting.

Anfauglir wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They don't feel the need to because the Tau are a frontier threat. It's called prioritizing. If the Tau cease to be one, then the Tau get priority. At which point, it's game over for those fish-faced xenos.

No it isn't. Even if the Tau gain priority, the IoM simply don't have the means to erradicate them. If they had the means to march aross to the other side of the galaxy and wipe the Tau out... then why haven't they done so with their current, much closer priority threats? Hmm? Face it, in order for the Imperium to be able to move sufficiently against the Tau, they will first have to all but neutralise threats from at least Chaos, Tyranids and Orks. This isn't going to happen. Neither is the Tau rising to become the primary threat over these others... and if it were the case that they did become that powerful, it would be too late like I said. If the Tau ever surpassed every other faction as a threat to the IoM, then there is even less hope of the Imperium defeating them. Which brings us right back to the beginning of our debate: it's a moot point. Neither is ever going to happen. Period.

Tadashi wrote:

Anfauglir wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They don't feel the need to because the Tau are a frontier threat. It's called prioritizing. If the Tau cease to be one, then the Tau get priority. At which point, it's game over for those fish-faced xenos.

No it isn't. Even if the Tau gain priority, the IoM simply don't have the means to erradicate them. If they had the means to march aross to the other side of the galaxy and wipe the Tau out... then why haven't they done so with their current, much closer priority threats? Hmm? Face it, in order for the Imperium to be able to move sufficiently against the Tau, they will first have to all but neutralise threats from at least Chaos, Tyranids and Orks. This isn't going to happen. Neither is the Tau rising to become the primary threat over these others... and if it were the case that they did become that powerful, it would be too late like I said. If the Tau ever surpassed every other faction as a threat to the IoM, then there is even less hope of the Imperium defeating them. Which brings us right back to the beginning of our debate: it's a moot point. Neither is ever going to happen. Period.

You want to launch a Crusade into the Eye of Terror or even into the Warp to eliminate Chaos? Be my guest. You want to leave the galaxy and preemptively engage the Tyranids far from the Imperial homeland? Go right ahead. You want to burn the Craftworlds, who unlike the Tau don't subvert Imperial planets? Right...not gonna happen. And trying to exterminate the Orks would be an exercise in futility. I'm better off talking to the wall. You keep missing the point - the only reason the Tau haven't faced a real Crusade is because the Imperium won't approve it since it's not worth it, not because they can't do it. At the end of the Zeist Campaign the Astartes were prepared to and willing to launch an assault on the Tau homeland - they were simply told not to because the Imperium had better uses for the Astartes elsewhere. But if they did, so many Astartes would have had assured victory. Once they become a threat, the Imperium will stop at nothing to burn them to ashes. A real Crusade would be a bloodbath to be sure, but the Imperium has more than enough resources to do so.

1hadhq wrote: sure they can. But they being GW . The IoM can or cannot whatever they deem useful at the time any background is published.
Its unneccessary to get rid of the Tau ( yet ) so no one is aiming at them in the background at a scale that they can't survive.
Whenever the expansion becomes to easy / unbelievable, the means to end it will be added to the background and GW may or may not use the IoM to do it. So no, selfdestruction isn't going to happen.

Anfauglir wrote:

Tadashi wrote:You want to launch a Crusade into the Eye of Terror or even into the Warp to eliminate Chaos? Be my guest. You want to leave the galaxy and preemptively engage the Tyranids far from the Imperial homeland? Go right ahead. You want to burn the Craftworlds, who unlike the Tau don't subvert Imperial planets? Right...not gonna happen. And trying to exterminate the Orks would be an exercise in futility. I'm better off talking to the wall. You keep missing the point - the only reason the Tau haven't faced a real Crusade is because the Imperium won't approve it since it's not worth it not because they can't do it.

Replace Tyranids with Tau and you have the exact same situation. I've bolded the points I've been making over and over. Not approving a mass invasion on the grounds that it would also bring about the agressor's own destruction is tantamount to not being able to do it. Yes, technically they have the means, but in all other senses they don't, because they are operating within rules of self-preservation (see metaphor).

Tadashi wrote:I never said it wouldn't cost the Imperium, but if they needed to they can do it.

Anfauglir wrote:

So, in other words, there's too many threats from too many directions for the IoM to sufficiently act against any single one of them. When faced in combination, each one requires more resources than the Imperium can spare in order to make any further progress in destroying them. Thanks for finally allowing that to sink in.

King Pariah wrote:The Imperium would go down hard, true, but there would definitely still be life, I do not believe that the Imperium has what it takes to wage a true War in Heaven

King Pariah wrote:The only way they could do it and be safe is if they shrink their empire to one of more manageable size. But humans aren't creatures so willing to give up territory.

nomotog wrote:

King Pariah wrote:The only way they could do it and be safe is if they shrink their empire to one of more manageable size. But humans aren't creatures so willing to give up territory.

Do you really think that will work? They would have to give up a lot of places like forgeworlds (Or other planets). Places that aren't easy to get back if they can get them back at all. Give up a planet to the nids, your not getting it back.

King Pariah wrote:

nomotog wrote:

King Pariah wrote:The only way they could do it and be safe is if they shrink their empire to one of more manageable size. But humans aren't creatures so willing to give up territory.

Do you really think that will work? They would have to give up a lot of places like forgeworlds (Or other planets). Places that aren't easy to get back if they can get them back at all. Give up a planet to the nids, your not getting it back.

Yeah, I know that. That's why the Imperium, hell humans in general, would never do it. Humans... become too attached to things generally, once they have something they never want to let it go. But hell, if they gave up the worlds on the fringes of their empire, everywhere there wasn't a truly established presence, dug in around and at vital points in the empire, then pulled the classic spear and shield tactic, they could have a strong chance at building up extermination crusades which they could send out and slaughter large portions, if not the entire, of the populations of other species while they continue to build up a pretty much insurmountable defensive line.

Tadashi wrote:

King Pariah wrote:

nomotog wrote:

King Pariah wrote:The only way they could do it and be safe is if they shrink their empire to one of more manageable size. But humans aren't creatures so willing to give up territory.

Do you really think that will work? They would have to give up a lot of places like forgeworlds (Or other planets). Places that aren't easy to get back if they can get them back at all. Give up a planet to the nids, your not getting it back.

Yeah, I know that. That's why the Imperium, hell humans in general, would never do it. Humans... become too attached to things generally, once they have something they never want to let it go. But hell, if they gave up the worlds on the fringes of their empire, everywhere there wasn't a truly established presence, dug in around and at vital points in the empire, then pulled the classic spear and shield tactic, they could have a strong chance at building up extermination crusades which they could send out and slaughter large portions, if not the entire, of the populations of other species while they continue to build up a pretty much insurmountable defensive line.

The Iron Warriors, both the traitors and the loyalist survivors (if any are left alive) would disagree. All fortresses fall sooner or later.