<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
But from a fluff perspective, it doesn't make sense, especially if you're playing Necrons. They don't use the warp and their machines are insanely advanced (what with being "masters of the physical universe" and stuff). I highly doubt that Deathmarks were teleporting into boulders during the War in Heaven or Night Scythes were accidentally landing on enemy troop formations or fortifications. This this can be applied to every species. Do drop pods and aircraft have no capacity to control themselves until they're within a certain distance of the planet? If teleportation is so extremely dangerous, why don't the many races simply launch teleport homers to the destination, then send out the troops?

Maybe it's because I find the Warp to be a wholly god-awful means of transportation, but I think that somewhere along the line someone (in-universe) thought, at least to themselves, "man, we should totally learn how to progress our technology to a point where we don't have to use a method of travel that routinely kill us."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319132.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319132.page GMT Re:Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
Well that was a long time ago were humans new how do stuff properly. Like not getting faced into rocks and stuff ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319192.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319192.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
For warp teleports the often do launch or plant teleport homing beacons. But the battles 40k tabletop typically supposed to represent are initial strikes, surprise attacks, etc. Situations where the ability to place a homer is not a given.

When it comes to the Necron...I think we just have to chalk it up to game balance.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319299.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319299.page GMT Re:Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319333.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319333.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319351.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319351.page GMT Re:Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
LoneLictor wrote:I'd assume its because however advanced Necron technology is, its not perfect. If it was, they wouldn't have lost the War in Heaven.

Didn't they win, and with enough strength to rebel against the C'tan too? Isn't that why they're around and the Old Ones aren't? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319360.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319360.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319365.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319365.page GMT Re:Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
LoneLictor wrote:I'd assume its because however advanced Necron technology is, its not perfect. If it was, they wouldn't have lost the War in Heaven.
... They won. Then they blew the C'tan into Shards. Even in the 3rd Ed codex, they were winning but that Enslaver plague kinda mucked everything up. Considering that was retconned, however, the Necrons defeated both the Old Ones and the C'tan.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you think about the accuracy in meters, to which even the maximum deviation is, it's really not that bad.

It's bad when you end up inside of a rock. Or an enemy unit, because just being there somehow kills you.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319403.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319403.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
Sigvatr wrote:Well, fluff usually breaks with rules and even design anyway...I mean...Necrons are considered to be the technologically most advanced race yet all of their vehicles are rather fragile and even have pilots...


They probably worked better new.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319411.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319411.page GMT Re:Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? And mistakes happen, ever heard of "deep strike mishap" rolls?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319416.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319416.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319421.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319421.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319429.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319429.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you think about the accuracy in meters, to which even the maximum deviation is, it's really not that bad.


What this guy said, things are kind of relative. I mean if you were going from one side of a house to another side of a house than ya the stuff is kind of inaccurate. If you are on another continent? Sounds like you are simply plugging in an 8 digit grid coordiante and hoping you land correctly. When you are getting something thousands of miles away (read, in orbit around a planet) and you are trying to land it anywhere, you are not going to land it on a dime. Even more so if you physically cant see the object from your position and you are just trying to litterally disappear from one spot and reappear at another spot.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319479.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319479.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
Galdos wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you think about the accuracy in meters, to which even the maximum deviation is, it's really not that bad.


What this guy said, things are kind of relative. I mean if you were going from one side of a house to another side of a house than ya the stuff is kind of inaccurate. If you are on another continent? Sounds like you are simply plugging in an 8 digit grid coordiante and hoping you land correctly. When you are getting something thousands of miles away (read, in orbit around a planet) and you are trying to land it anywhere, you are not going to land it on a dime. Even more so if you physically cant see the object from your position and you are just trying to litterally disappear from one spot and reappear at another spot.
We have bullets than can correct their trajectory mid-flight. Current day GPS is accurate down to a few meters, and they orbit tens of thousands of miles above the earth. We have satellites that take extremely high-resolution (even higher res if military) pictures. Hell, the CIA can pick out license plate numbers from satellites.

Besides, how hard would it be to mark a spot with a laser or radar designator from orbit? All the ship has to do is maintain geosynchronous orbit for the duration of the teleportation/drop, then move on. That's not even mentioning Jump Infantry, who have direct control over where they land, since they have presumably trained with their jump device for at least a year or two.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319618.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319618.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319701.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319701.page GMT Re:Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
LoneLictor wrote:I'd assume its because however advanced Necron technology is, its not perfect. If it was, they wouldn't have lost the War in Heaven.


They didn't.

We have bullets than can correct their trajectory mid-flight. Current day GPS is accurate down to a few meters, and they orbit tens of thousands of miles above the earth. We have satellites that take extremely high-resolution (even higher res if military) pictures. Hell, the CIA can pick out license plate numbers from satellites.

Besides, how hard would it be to mark a spot with a laser or radar designator from orbit? All the ship has to do is maintain geosynchronous orbit for the duration of the teleportation/drop, then move on. That's not even mentioning Jump Infantry, who have direct control over where they land, since they have presumably trained with their jump device for at least a year or two.


We have, they have....

What we have today is, at times, not comparable to what the Imperium has in 40K. We have much nicer computers... they have the ability to make you into a super-human behemoth. We have a fancy Stealth Bomber... they have giant fething starships that travel across the galaxy in a matter of weeks.

The Imperium is more advanced than M2 Earth, but not in every way. Much has been lost, never to be regained. The Imperium's teleportarium technology is nearly-lost, with it working more by luck and chance than by design or comprehension. That is why it's less than accurate.

Since it's traveling via the Warp, we can also only guess if a laser Markerlight would make any difference.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319939.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4319939.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4324578.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4324578.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? D6 for scatter, or at least the death marks....and monolith, I cant tell you how many times I've lost my mightly mono because it was Dawn of war and it scattered into something, oh, wait, I can, 100% of the times I've played Dawn of war, its mishapped and either died or been in a lonely corner somewhere]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4324717.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4324717.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? lol. In the older editions of the game, you could count on your fingers the number of units capable of deep striking, lol. The mechanics have carried over, but the tactic has become almost necessary for some units.

I think players have forgotten how to play a traditional wargame, and deep striking has become a requirement for some armies.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4325378.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4325378.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
McNinja wrote:All teleport homers do is produce a signal that Terminators can lock onto. whatever system they use could be calibrated to accept a "markerlight"ed target as that signal. Heck, ships could mini-pod homers down to the planets surface.


Yes... and this is assuming that whatever system we're talking about here that is calibrated to lock onto a markerlight is a) properly calibrated, b) its Machine-Spirit appropriately appeased, c) works on a degree of accuracy closer than tens of meters (or hundreds or whatever) under optimum conditions, which is not guaranteed, d) isn't somehow slightly damaged or malfunctional in a way that can be detected, and repaired, by human beings.

Let's say that all Teleportariums in the Imperium work with a "Beam-U-There 5000" targeting computer, which is based off of the schematics recovered from the remains of a long-lost STC. The Mechanicus had to "patch in" a few things to make it functional at all. These patches make it operational, but they screw up the accuracy and reliability of the Teleport by an exponential degree. Without the Beam-U-There, though, the Teleportarium won't work. The Mechanicus can find no other way to make it work except these cobbled-together patches. Thus, all Teleportariums in the Imperium are... rather inaccurate.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327078.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327078.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
Anyway, I get the beam-u-there example, though I thought STCs contained the full schematics for whatever it had on it. Either way, if markerlighting the surface wouldn't work, then mini-podding homers and beacons down would work better.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327165.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327165.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
And, yes, while an intact STC would have all the complete files and details... I don't believe an entire, complete STC has ever been recovered, just parts of one, or examples of things it could make (blueprints for a single item, for example), so if our Beam-U-There is built off an incomplete STC template, then it's going to be buggy.

And, sure, you could micro-pod something onto the battlefield... and you might as well attach a sign on it with a flashing arrow that says "Target Artillery Here, Troops Inbound".]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327253.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327253.page GMT Re:Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
As to making better tech? you are missing the whole pont of the 40k setting.

People worship machines and say prayers to them in the assumption that if they don't the spirit inside will become angry and not work.

It is a setting of superstition and ceremonial rigidness when it comes to tech.

It is a fundamentalcharacteristic of the setting.

if you want high tech sillyness you could always go play infinity...



]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327314.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327314.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327462.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327462.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? CT GAMER- only the humans have given into ridiculous superstition. Every other species in the galaxy has a firm grasp on how their tech works, inclusing the Orks, and their tech only works because they want it too.

Warhammer 40k is set in a dystopian future where everything wants you to die. It isn't about being dumb, no matter how much sense the dumb makes in-universe. If there's one thing I hate about the IoM, it's that the admech is so blindingly incompetent and dumb.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327785.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327785.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:The equivilient would be when the CIA shoots those licence plates from orbit with a semi truck.

How did you know we did that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327818.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327916.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327916.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
Thats why all the sergents and commanders dont wear them :3]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327921.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4327921.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4328705.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4328705.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
Sigvatr wrote:Well, fluff usually breaks with rules and even design anyway...I mean...Necrons are considered to be the technologically most advanced race yet all of their vehicles are rather fragile and even have pilots...
Obviously this is because Orks are the most technologically advanced race.


`
McNinja wrote:the Orks [...] their tech only works because they want it too.
It works with no orks present at all.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4328707.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4328707.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4328738.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4328738.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
Spetulhu wrote:Don't forget that Jump troops also use Deep Strike rules, and they can't (usually) claim thousands of miles or orbit as the reason they went off target. They jump out of low-flying transports. So what is it that makes them scatter then? Wind? Enemy fire? Dodging ground support fliers? Plain bad sight due to massive jamming and smoke cover on the ground?
I think that's exactly the case.

The BRB talks about 'bad coordinates' or 'instrument jamming'. Consider the absolute worst misplaced mishap would be corner to corner on a 4'x6' board (about 7'). If we consider 1" to be about 6' in game terms (25mm or so) then from corner to corner, you're looking at around 500' off-target. Granted, it's the FUTURE! but 500' is a tiny distance when considering the factors (exactly like you mentioned) that can affect even a relatively 'simple' grav-chute drop out of a Valkyrie. Plus that's the worst case scenario. 90% of the time you're looking at an average of 250-300 feet game distance; less than a hundred metres dash.

A full 2D6 scatter? About 75 feet in game terms. Whoever said "damn near surgical" is correct!

DoW ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4328811.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4328811.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? 40k universe has a laughably short range.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4329154.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4329154.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
McNinja wrote:If 12" is 75 feet, then every single weapon in the 40k universe has a laughably short range.
Yep.

Troops only move about 40 feet a turn too, what's your point?

DoW ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4329422.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4329422.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? 40k is terrible and represents a battle about as accurately as Call of Duty?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4329730.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4329730.page GMT Re:Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? GW seems to have done a reasonable job considering the popularity of 40k.

Regardless, the distances being what they are, deep strike misplacements and scatters are relatively minimal in the grand scheme of things.

DoW ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4329864.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4329864.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
McNinja wrote:... That the scale in 40k is terrible and represents a battle about as accurately as Call of Duty?


This is a game with an extremely tenuous link to reality, in the best of situations. Distances and such are balanced internally, unto itself. It's not meant to really represent any real-life distances, at any scale. If they were going to try to do this, then they'd have to increase the size of the battle-tables by a factor of at least 3, probably closer to 5, and your CC armies would be right fethed, because the shooty guys on the other end of this 30' table are going to be shooting you for a long, long time as you advance 18" a turn.

Alternately.... yes, in the 41st millennia, weapons only shoot 12 to 24" (with some variance)... but, then, a powerful super-human warrior is about an inch and a half tall, and three-quarters of an inch wide. At some point during the DAoT, the universe was shrunk down, only no one noticed.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4335113.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4335113.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
Melissia wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:Well, fluff usually breaks with rules and even design anyway...I mean...Necrons are considered to be the technologically most advanced race yet all of their vehicles are rather fragile and even have pilots...
Obviously this is because Orks are the most technologically advanced race.


`
McNinja wrote:the Orks [...] their tech only works because they want it too.
It works with no orks present at all.


Ha. Ork tech has been stated repeatedly to only work because the user is an ork.

As for the necrons, Warp energy can affect the physical world, and the churning a battle would cause could throw necrons off balance.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4336373.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4336373.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
Melissia wrote:
Sigvatr wrote:Well, fluff usually breaks with rules and even design anyway...I mean...Necrons are considered to be the technologically most advanced race yet all of their vehicles are rather fragile and even have pilots...
Obviously this is because Orks are the most technologically advanced race.


`
McNinja wrote:the Orks [...] their tech only works because they want it too.
It works with no orks present at all.


Pretty sure it's been stated multiple times that "Ork tecknoligy" only work around orks. When they're used by humans, they either function very poorly or not at all. I remember reading a quote somewhere where the mechanicus opened up a shoota only to realize that it was a steel pipe with a box full of bolts being used as a "magazine."

An interesting exception to this is in the book "Death World", which is about Catachan jungle fighters fighting against orks. At one point, they use the shootas against some orks since they're almost completely out of ammo. The shootas worked just fine, but that was probably because the orks could see them and expected them to fire. After all, why would they think the guns wouldn't fire? ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4338883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4338883.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4341257.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4341257.page GMT Why is Deep Striking so inaccurate?
McNinja wrote:
Galdos wrote:
Veteran Sergeant wrote:If you think about the accuracy in meters, to which even the maximum deviation is, it's really not that bad.


What this guy said, things are kind of relative. I mean if you were going from one side of a house to another side of a house than ya the stuff is kind of inaccurate. If you are on another continent? Sounds like you are simply plugging in an 8 digit grid coordiante and hoping you land correctly. When you are getting something thousands of miles away (read, in orbit around a planet) and you are trying to land it anywhere, you are not going to land it on a dime. Even more so if you physically cant see the object from your position and you are just trying to litterally disappear from one spot and reappear at another spot.
We have bullets than can correct their trajectory mid-flight. Current day GPS is accurate down to a few meters, and they orbit tens of thousands of miles above the earth. We have satellites that take extremely high-resolution (even higher res if military) pictures. Hell, the CIA can pick out license plate numbers from satellites.

Besides, how hard would it be to mark a spot with a laser or radar designator from orbit? All the ship has to do is maintain geosynchronous orbit for the duration of the teleportation/drop, then move on. That's not even mentioning Jump Infantry, who have direct control over where they land, since they have presumably trained with their jump device for at least a year or two.



Well, there's conservation of momentum to consider, plus no system is foolproof. Hitting a spot to within a few metres, from a ship in orbit or beyond, moving at tens of thousands of miles an hour, in the midst of a battle, with enemy fire and counter-signals and jamming and even the influence of the Warp to consider, is nothing short of miraculous. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4348873.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/451473/4348873.page GMT