<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12."]]>

<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12."]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/16.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12. Ok V0.2.1 is up (11/6/12), changes are in red, minor changes here to brute squads and alarm roll at the end of the attackers turn, updated scenarios posted soon.

Kill Team battles will be fought using the rules set out in the Battle Missions book from GW on page 90, with some additions.

Attacker

The attacker gets a 200 point Kill Team, with the option of adding silencers to their ranged weapons at the cost of 10 points per squad. Silencers cannot be put onto template, blast or melta type weapons; Sniper Rifles have silencers by default. Vehicles cannot be given silencers

Defender

The defender gets a 200pt Kill Team. The defender does not have the option of adding silencers to the weapons, the defender CANNOT interact with their Kill Team until the alarm has been raised, they are however deployed along with the brute squads, details on this are on a per scenario basis.

In additon the defender gets 250 points of ‘Brute Squads’, Brute squads are chosen from the defenders troop choices, they must follow all rules and stats associated with them, including squad size and morale. Brute squads cannot take extra wargear unless regarded as a free upgrade in the defenders codex.

Brute Squads

Brute squads do not initially act as normal units, their movements are dealt with via dice rolls. At the start of the defenders turn, both players roll a D6 for each individual brute squad. The winner of the roll may move the squad in any direction an amount up to the result of their roll. They may of course leave the squad where it is and turn it a different direction. The defender has the bonus of adding the number of Alarm Counters gained up to this point to their roll. Should the result be a tie at any time, the brute squad do not move or turn but they may still make 'Active Spotting Checks' if the defender wishes.

A brute squads facing is very important, they only have a 180 degree front viewing arc in which to spot enemy units and vehicles, both passive and active spotting checks can ONLY be carried out in this arc. Also should they be assaulted from behind ALL of the attackers attacks hit automatically and ignore armour also the attackers strike first regardless of initiative.

Active Spotting Checks are used to spot enemy vehicles/monstrous creatures. Active Spotting checks are made at the end of the defenders movement phase. If any brute squad has line of sight to an emeny vehicle they can attempt an 'Active Spotting Check'. The defender must roll 2D6 and times the result by 3, if the enemy vehicle/monstrous creature are within this distance, it is has been spotted. There is also 'Passive Spotting Range', this is the highest initiative of the brute squad plus the number of alarm counters in inches. Passive spotting is always active and only through the 180 degree front arc. Note that a brute squad must all face the same direction at all times.

Once a brute squad is able to act normally, they are allowed to split their fire between eligible targets.

Alarm Counters

The defender gains Alarm Counters when certain events happen. All events in the list below add 1 Alarm counter.

If the attacking player fires on a brute squad with a non-silenced weapon.

If the attacking player assaults a brute squad.

When a vehicle controlled by the attacker moves more than 6"

If any of the attackers models moves into passive spotting range of a brute squad. In addition the brute squad acts as a normal unit for the remainder of the game.

Once the Alarm counters reach 6, all remaining brute squads act as normal units.
Should the Alarm counters reach 8, the alarm is raised.

There are also certain events that set the alarm off automatically at the end of that players turn. All events in this list with raise the alarm automatically.

Any unit friend or foe that fires a non-silenced heavy weapon.

Any unit friend or foe that fires a Blast, Template or Melta type weapon.

If any of the models in an assaulted brute squad survive to the end of that turn.

If any brute squad survives to the end of the turn after being 'HIT' by any weapon.

If any of the defenders non-brute units are attacked in any way.

If at the begining of the defenders turn any enemy model is within passive spotting range of a defenders non-brute unit.

If any enemy vehicle/unit is spotted by a brute squad using an active spotting check.

Also at the end of the attackers turn roll a D6, on the result of a 5+ add 1 Alarm counter to the pile.

Once the alarm is raised the defenders Kill Team becomes active, all remaining brute squads act as normal units and join forces with the defending Kill Team.

Should the attacking player wipe out all of the brute squads, the alarm is raised immediately.

The attacker’s primary objective remains unchanged at all times!!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4349191.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4349191.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.
I think that the hand to hand alarm points should only apply if the brutes survive the encounter.

So the defender is getting 250 of brutes, 200 of a kill team, and the attacker gets what? 500 points?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4349654.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4349654.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework. CC and SM 3+ saves hence why the defender gets 250 rather than 200, we're going to be testing things hopefully this weekend and yes in regards to the assult if the brutes survive the first round then the points are applied.

Also... yikes at the typos... was using my phone at work predictive text sucks at times.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4350602.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4350602.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.
Do you allow transports and stuff with the 250?

I'll try to help, but I won't be able to test anything, so I don't know how useful that is.

I know when I play we usually do at least 1 special scenario where the marine player fields an army that is mostly scouts. He keeps the rest off the board until the alarm goes off or he chooses to start the actual game by bringing them in. I have a realistic force for whatever the place is that he's infiltrating, but always more points than he does (maybe 25-50%, so it's balanced because he's basically choosing how the game is going to start and often gets 1st turn at a distance of his choosing). We don't place brutes, but occaisionally we'll have some models patrolling a set path. I think we use normal rules for setting off the alarm. These games always work out fine.

Then again, that's not really kill team is it?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4353228.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4353228.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.

erikwfg wrote:I dont' know if i'll ever agree with the -1 armor save. If it's because that's too tough then the problem might be with allowing people to buy anything with their 250. I'd think in most cases that there would be no 3+ armors normally. I know necron warriors got reduced to 4+, chaos should be using cultists perhaps, and space marines using scouts.

Do you allow transports and stuff with the 250?

The scouts and cultists sounds like a plan, I'll look into it. As for buying anything, no they are ONLY allowed to buy troop choices, alas no you do not get transports for your brute squads.

Ok so I've rewritten the rules to make slightly easier to read, with some very subtle changes

Kill Team battles will be fought using the rules set out in the Battle Missions book page 90, with a few additions.

The defender gets 250pts of ‘Brute Squads’ these can ONLY be basic infantry units with standard equipment or anything that is listed specifically as a free upgrade and they MUST be from the defenders codex troop choices. The brute squads are split into squads of no less than 3 and no more than 5 this is up to the defenders discretion. Note that all brute squads have an armour save no better than 4+. No vehicles of any kind can be selected for the brute squads.

In addition to the brute squads the defending player also gets a 200pt Kill Team of his own, the defender CANNOT interact with his Kill Team other than deploying them until the alarm has been raised. Deployment rules are dependant on what mission the attacker chooses.

Brute squad movements are dealt with via dice rolls at the start of the defending player's turn. Both players roll a single D6 for each brute squad, the winner gets to move that squad a distance equal to the dice roll in any direction. The defender adds the number of Alarm points to his roll. Should the result be a tie the defending player moves the squad, brutes are dumb but they still have some common sense.

Alarm points are gained when certain events happen, below is a list of such events.

If the attacking player fires on a brute squad, if any model is left alive add 1 Alarm point to the pile.

If the attacking player assaults a brute squad, if any model is left alive after the first round of combat add 1 Alarm point to the pile.

If the attacking player’s Kill Team comes within spotting range (Initiative value plus the number of alarm points in inches), add 1 Alarm point to the pile. In addition to this the brute squad then acts as a normal squad for the remainder of the game or until the alarm is raised

If the attacking brings a vehicle, each time it moves more than 6” add 1 Alarm point to the pile.

Once the Alarm points reache 10 the alarm is raised, all brute squads are removed from play. The defenders Kill Team becomes active and moves to defend the target.

The attacker’s primary objective remains unchanged at all times!!

Also

I'm working on the different missions that can be undertaken, so far I've got Sabotage, Infiltration, Raid and everyones fav Assassinations.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4354244.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4354244.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4354287.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4354287.page GMT Kill Team rules rework. It's something to think about for sure.

I'm almost done with the Sabotage mission, I'll post it up for scrutiny once it's done.

Edit: Not really the best explaination of what I was trying to say. When creating a Kill Team unless you take snipers you have no option of a silenced weapon.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4355335.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4355335.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.
Looking forward to sabotage.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4355591.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4355591.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework. GW, I'm not a fan of the old 4th ed ones.
The easiest method would be to give the option of the sniper ability at a points cost per model.

Ok so Sabotage mission

Hopefully this is easy to follow without me having to put up my entire campaign rule set up, but here goes...

A sabotage mission’s primary target is always a building of high importance to the enemy. In the case of this campaign this is any of the 4 building upgrades that a player may purchase. Should the kill team be successful, the building is either annihilated or severely damaged. Either way the defending player loses the bonus from the building at least until they either rebuild or repair it.

Due to the nature of some of the buildings, some may be far harder to destroy from the outside.

Once the attacker has created his kill team, they nominate 2 models to carry the ‘Thermonuclear bomb’, the weight of this device always requires 2 models to carry/move it. The bomb CANNOT be carried by vehicles. If one of the models carrying the bomb is killed another must move to take his place or the bomb CANNOT be moved.

The objective of a sabotage mission is to get the bomb next to the building, arm it and then get out. If they are successful, roll a single D6 and apply the result to the table below making note of which building was targeted.

___________________1____I_____2_____I____3____I____4____I____5____I_____6_____I
Shield Generator___Bomb Failed_________IBuilding Damaged____IBuilding Destroyed
Command Bastion__Bomb Failed________IBuilding Damaged____IBuilding Destroyed
Power Station______Bomb Failed__________________IBuilding Damaged___IBuilding Destroyed
Manufactorum______Bomb Failed__________________IBuilding Damaged___IBuilding Destroyed
(hopefully thats clear, Word makes it easier to do tables)

The board should be a 4'x4' and laid out as shown in the diagram, you need not copy it exactly variation is key. (Haven't included this so i'll try to explain)

The target building is placed in the center of the board with a footprint no bigger than 12"x12". General terrain pieces should consist of fences, barriers, sandbags etc with a few area terrain pieces. 1 or 2 smaller buildings are ok. Once the terrain has been placed the defender needs to nominate a table edge to be his edge.

The defender always deploys first, they may deploy thier brute squads anywhere on the table but not with in 12” of ANY table edge (the blue area of the diagram).

The attacker deploys his Kill Team up to 12” from any table edge except the one that the defender chose.

First turn is decided by the attacker rolling a single D6, if they roll a 1 the defender gets ‘First turn’.

To arm the bomb the 2 models carrying it must not move, shoot, or attack for an entire player turn, if they are shoot at or assaulted they must start again with the arming procedures once they are out of combat. Once the bomb has been placed and armed, the attacker must get what remains of his Kill Team off the board, they must leave from one of the three edges they came on from. Should the alarm be raised at any point the defending player may immediately deploy his kill team from his table edge choosen at the start of the battle.

Hopefully that clearish...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4355818.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4355818.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.
I'll test this out today I think.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4355914.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4355914.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework. gen for example.

The shield gen in my campaign gives the entire defending army an 4+ cover save (only against weapons with a strength of 5 or less, template weapons still ignore cover) in any sector that has one built in it (bear in mind each sector can only have 1 builing). So if you go in with a KT and knock it out, then go in with an assault force you have a much better chance at conquring the sector in question. With the shield gen up and running, you'll have a hard job shifting some of the defending army.

As I said even if the building is damaged the effect is lost and the defending player needs to spend resource points to repair/rebuild it, meaning he doesn't have as much for upgrading/expanding his own army. The general idea is for a big knock on effect.

The next mission i'm working on is assassinations, this will knock out an entire sectors resource production for 1 round, which could be anything up to 11 points from 1 sector per round. 11 points doesn''t sound a lot but it equates to 110 points in terms of units. There is even a chance of you killing the players charcater if you feel brave enough. (assassination still WIP mind)

Thinking about it though, the infiltrate mission puts a teleporter by the building which then leads to a Zone Mortalis scenario inside the target building. Planting a bomb inside is bye bye building regardless of what it is.

Theres a bit of a ramble for ya...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, forgot to say the bomb is Thermonuclear... don't think i'd like be near it when it goes off hence the need for high tailing after arming it. Also should the attackers KT be wiped out before they get out the bomb still goes off but the units are removed from the players army roster.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok finished a really rough Assassination mission, let me know what ya think. (yes i have nicked this one straight from 4th Ed with some changes)

Assassination

Assassination missions have but 1 objective, kill the sector Governor and send the sector into disarray. If the player is successful the sector ceases to produce RqP(resource points) for the following campaign round.

Assassination missions are played on a 4’x4’ board, the defending player gets to setup the board as it’s his territory, making note of the sector type. Once the terrain is deployed the defending player choses his board edge, this is the edge his Kill Team enter in from should the alarm be raised.

Once the terrain is setup roll a single D6, on the result of a 6 the attacking player is lucky, as the defending player’s character is in the area on some business. The attacking player gets to choose if they wish to go after the sector governor or try their luck at taking out the enemy player’s character.

Sector Governor stats are:
WS. BS. S.. T.. W.. I.. A.. Ld
3... 3..... 3.... 4.... 2... 3... 1... 9

The governor is armed with a Pistol & Melee weapon, they may not move from their starting position but will act normally once attacked.

Due to the importance of such targets to both parties in addition to the brute squads the defending player gets to place 4 sentry brutes armed with long range rifles with the below stats.

Brute Sentry Rifle..... Range: 24”.... Strength: 6...... AP: 3....... Heavy 1, Pinning

Each sentry brute is placed on ‘Overwatch’ which gives it a 45degree field of vision, making note of the direction he is facing by placing a token to indicate it. Should any model from the attackers Kill Team pass within the models line of sight, the alarm is immediately raised. Sentry brutes are not interacted with in any way unless an enemy model passes their line of sight, they are removed from the same as normal brute squads should the alarm be raised. Sentry brutes can be taken out while their stats are as stated in the relevant army codex, they have no armour save. Remember rules apply to firing unsilcened weapons.

Should the target be engaged and survive to the end of the attackers turn the alarm is immediately raised.

The defender always deploys first, they can deploy their brutes anywhere on the table but not within 12” of any table edge. The target is deployed in the centre area of the table.

The attacker deploys his Kill Team up to 6” from any table edge. The attacker rolls a D6 on the result of a 1 the defender goes first.

While both are essentially the same in terms of game play going after the sector governor is very straight forward, however if they elect to go after the enemy character once the alarm is raised the defender not only has their Kill Team but the character is also usable. (this could get very painful)

Should the alarm be raised the attacking player has the option of retreating, bear in mind that should the Kill Team be wiped out they are removed from the player’s army roster. To retreat the attacking player must get his KT off the board using any of the available table edges.

Should the attacking player be successful in assassinating the enemy character, the defending player DOES NOT get to roll on the table for character deaths, if a character is assassinated he is killed outright and a new character will need to be created following the rules set out in the Character Creation chapter.

If the target is killed the attacker wins, in the confusion caused the KT slips away unnoticed. JOB DONE!]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4356302.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4356302.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.
Still what you've come up with is superior to the basically nothingness that is in the battles book.

So I forsee some problems I want to ask about before testing this.
What if the attacker targets the defender's KT before they are activated?

...you added a whole new scenario while I was writing this...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357350.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357350.page GMT Kill Team rules rework. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357369.page GMT Kill Team rules rework.

Dedoctah wrote:They cant as they're not on the board until the alarm is raised, I changed that after thinking about the same thing.

I was referring to the sabotage.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357370.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357370.page GMT Kill Team rules rework. KT comes on once the alarm is raised.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh also i'm thinking of each mission having it's own alarm point threshold, not sure on this tho.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357375.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357375.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.
For the assassination however, I think it's way too easy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357383.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357383.page GMT Kill Team rules rework. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357396.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357396.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.
Having the target as an ally doesn't really help the defender, because you'd have to put him in harm's way to use him.

Maybe if the target deploys in the middle of the defender's edge, and the attacker is opposite, that would make it better.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
You also weren't clear when you were talking about defender's character. I was just assuming the governor guy was the target in every game.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357423.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357423.page GMT Kill Team rules rework.
As for the player characters... once these guys get Xp and upgrades it'll take more than a KT to bring them down. The creation rules should put them at around 250 pts but thats something totally different.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
thats what the D6 roll is for if its a 6, then the attacker can choose if they want to try their luck with the player character.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357442.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357442.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.
I guess just ignore that part?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357450.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357450.page GMT Kill Team rules rework. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357458.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework. KT total of 200.

I'm going to test one of the games now.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357466.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357466.page GMT Kill Team rules rework. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357482.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357482.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework. BA brutes 250 (241)
3 scouts (sniper rifles)
4 scouts (boltguns)
5 scouts (1 sgt, shotguns)
5 scouts (1 sgt, combat blades)

BA kill team 200
6 vanguard veterans (jump packs)(1 sgt w glaive encarmine, 1 w m bombs)

DA kill team 200 (191)
8 incubi (1 klaivex)

DE set up on the opposite edge from where the defender's KT will come in. Attacker went first (there isn't really a point in having defender go first is there?). Objective was a satellite dish in the middle of the board. BA brute squads are set up on and around the dish.

Incubi move to what is thought to be more than 10" from the enemy. All brutes that turn moved by defender to converge on the incubi. Turns out the incubi were within 10", letting brute squad with cc weapon/pistol act as a normal unit from then on. So they take shots but forgot to charge, oops.

I made the assumption that KT members still count as single man squads, but brutes count as normal squads. This means that a brute squad can never kill more than 1 model with shooting. I forgot about wound allocation for squads, I was treating each brute model as it's own unit for hand to hand purposes. Had I done it the right way they'd have been even easier to kill.

Anyways, so the incubi charge the scouts and kill them before they get to swing back. Again the defender moves all of the brutes closer to the incubi. This brings shotguns within range, so they fire, doing nothing. All but the 3 incubi charge the shotguns, killing 4, leaving only the klaivex (who now has feel no pain) with the last guy. Again if I remembered to wound the unit rather than individual models they'd all have died. The bomb guys and 1 other incubi charged at the snipers, leaving bomb guys free and the extra incubi still engaged.

I probably should've went over the pile in rules because I don't think anyone should be free after combat if an enemy is still alive, but if I did hand to hand right then no one would've survived anyhow.

So the bolter scouts now turn around, finally sure that something odd is happening. They blast 6 bolter shots into a bomb carrier, killing him, and delaying placement for a round. The incubi who finished killing the shotguns now fleet/charge at the bolters, who die instantly (first time I remembered).

So all brutes are now dead but the alarm still hasn't gone off. I said it did anyways, just because the bomb was being planted.

Or maybe it should've went off earlier because each time an incubi charges they must come within detection range, thus adding 1 to the alarm pool. Yet if the alarm went off that early then all brutes would've disappeared, and bomb would've been planted the same time it was. Would they act as normal units for the rest of the game, or would they still be taken off when the alarm goes off? If they stay then this game becomes alot harder.

Assuming brutes disappear: the bomb planters could've run to the objective. Bomb would be planted and they'd run away before the defender KT catches them. This is what happened when the vanguard came in anyways. I ran with the incubi just to see how many could make it out. If I'd have charged I'd probably have killed all the marines. The vanguard followed and fired pistols, which somehow killed 1 incubi, 1 with feel no pain, and the fnp klaivex. 2 vanguard charged into an incubi, 1 of them dying, the other killing the incubi the next round. These rolls for the vanguard were nowhere near average... 3 incubi made it off the board.

So a KT with no ranged capability was able to easily get in and out. Plus each DE being a separate unit screwed them on the pain token acquisition. It seems that anything in the middle of the board is a bad idea if the defender has to come in from a table edge. If the defender KT isn't all fast attack then they wouldn't even be able to get to the fight. Even in the assassination scenario it (with the target on the defender's table edge) it still seems easy to just snipe him with a heavy weapon then leave.

I think I messed up with how easy it is to set off the alarm. Especially if brutes who get within detection range stay afterwards, it would make the scenario harder.

I'm thinking that maybe the defender's KT should deploy anywhere on the board. Each model counts as it's own brute squad that never moves, but if you attack one and it survives then they all activate. Idk.

So if you charge 5 models vs a brute squad, is that 5 automatic alarm points, plus more if it survives?

I'll get the rules straight then test it again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357940.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4357940.page GMT Kill Team rules rework.
Hmmmm New rule then for the time being...

If all brute squads are killed then alarm is raised regardless of points gathered up to that point.

I'll have a proper read after work, this little screen is hard to read this early.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok so I've had a proper read and it certainly looks like the alarm points need a rework and the deployments and objective placement.

So much for waiting till I got home... Lol

Ok so alarm points...
1 point for attacker moving in to range
2 points if attacker charges a brute squad
1 point if a brute survives the first round of combat
1 point if attacker shoots at a brute squad with an unsilenced weapon

Should all brutes be killed the alarm is activated as command finally realise something is wrong.

As for deployment, how about moving the object back to the defenders table edge or to with in 6" of it and not allow the attackers to deploy anything within 12" of the defenders edge which should in theory give the defender a nice clear area

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or maybe have opposite table edges for deployment, I guess its a matter of testing at this point.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4358307.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4358307.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework. KT member is it's own unit. Thus if I have guardsmen as my KT members then i'm nearly guaranteed to set the alarm off when they go after the first brute squad. I think you should put the alarm points to 1 for charging, because you would be getting 1 for coming into range too right?

Monday is not a good day for me, so I doubt i'll get another test in today.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4359996.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4359996.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4360213.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4360213.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.
So for sabotage, if the bomb can't be transported by vehicles, jump packed, or teleported, then the objective being in the middle of the board works.

Any problems with those missions will become obvious to you upon playtesting. I don't know if there is a way to fix some of the things that feel weird. One of the weird things is why do the guards at the place disappear once the alarm goes off, and the people who should be defending it end have to run to it? Maybe the defender KT should be setup in their deployment zone as stationary brutes (until the alarm), and the objective should be 1' from the defender's edge?

So I tried another game using the same armies listed previously.

Game 2
Incubi setup on 3 table edges. Defender goes first and moves pretty much all the brutes to try and pin the incubi against the table edges. 3 incubi (2 carry the bomb) and the klaivex which setup on defenders table edge charge 5 shotgun scouts and lose horribly. I automatically fail morale irl knowing that this playtest is probably screwed due to bad dice odds. Anyways, next round of combat just as bad, so now the alarm ended up going off at the end of the defender's assault phase. This gave the 2 surviving incubi there a chance to regroup and carry the bomb. So the vanguard come in now, figuring they can't lose anyone if they stay on top of terrain and fire pistols, they do so, doing nothing. The incubi run to the target building with the bomb and are met up by the other 4 incubi who started on other table edges. The 4 incubi form a circle around the bomb planters. Vanguard must charge in now or the incubi will set the bomb next turn. The hand to hand lasts a turn or two, ending with only 1 model surviving. Strangely I can't remember which side won, I think it was the vanguard sergeant because he was very lucky.

Game 3
This time I switched who was defender and attacker. I didn't bother to figure out the dark eldar brutes because I knew the marines were going to jump pack within spotting distance and unload their pistols, setting off the alarm 1st turn. Except for the bomb carriers, who just walked and shot. So the wussy DE brutes scatter from shock and awe tactics of the BA. The incubi pour in from the opposite table edge, trying to run and catch the bomb planters before they reach. The bomb planters don't get lucky on running so don't reach the objective. The other vanguard land on the objective and try to fire, but are out of range. Incubi move in further. Bomb guys reach the objective. Other vanguard form up on both sides so the DE can't reach the bomb guys. This doesn't work as it still leaves a gap open. Incubi charge, everyone is now engaged. Incubi roll bad, but still kill the marines and have half their number left.

I think this game could've been won by the vanguard if they weren't so bold on setting off the alarm.

----
Despite how it needs alot more testing, in conclusion I think this scenario is actually playable. It's weird though because the brute phase of the game determines whether the attacker will have an easy time or not. Once you commit to fighting the alarm bonus on the defenders roll to move brutes pretty much makes them all converge on you. In some cases you'll have to fight brutes because you can't set the alarm off fast enough.

I'm still thinking about assassination, and i'm pretty sure the target has to start in the defender's table edge and attacker always comes in opposite. Even still, I think it's way to easy for the guy to get heavy weapon sniped. I think that once the target is attacked the alarm should go off automatically. If they fail to kill the target with sniping then it will be alot harder later. So this might be what makes the scenario fair. Though it seems like it will always be either instant win or hard.

Will try more another time.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
further question.

No reserves right, and therefore no deep strike?

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4362446.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4362446.page GMT Kill Team rules rework.
With the assassination if the target is engaged at any time the alarm is raised. If I missed putting that in my mistake, still thinking on the target placement going to get a game of this in soon hopefully.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and yes bikes count as vehicles and if the unit can take a transport they are allowed it, bear in mind that should a vehicle move more than 6" they add 1 alarm token to the pile. Hmm thinking about should a vehicle be spotted at anytime the alarm in theory should be raised automatically, what ya think of that?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4363200.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4363200.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.so +1 alarm point and squad acts normally from then on.

I also think any heavy wep shot that isn't sniper should set off alarms.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4364512.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4364512.page GMT Kill Team rules rework.
Could you elaborate a little with the spotting distance idea, I like the sound of it but somehow I feel it may be a little too powerful.

Also I'm almost done with the alarm overhaul, I'll post it as a whole new set of rules in the first message so it's easy to find, I'll do same with the scenarios as well. Also keep an eye out as i'm beginning to work on the infiltrate and raid scenarios as well, might need a little help to make them work as stand alone scenarios though.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4365831.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4365831.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework. LOS then there is no need to roll. If the big thing is within the rolled range then it counts as spotted, so +1 alarm point and the brute squad functions normally.

I'm assuming that these missions are taking place somewhere that fighting could be happening close by. Otherwise it's a bit weird that any shooting doesn't automatically set off the alarm. Though heavy weapons are a bit more obvious, thus they could be automatic.

I just tested a 3rd sabotage game. I must say that I've been forgetting to apply a -1 armor save to brutes. I also have been moving brutes 6", not what the initial dice roll to control them was. I'll start doing both from game 4 onward.

I also assume the bomb is disguised or something. That would be why the defender doesn't automatically know it's there. I'd say the attacker must have a model escape off the board or else they count as a loss. If the defender kills all the attackers then they'll have time to do a thorough search of the area, finding the bomb, defusing, and winning the game. An attacker still alive could prevent them from doing that.

I'm taking notes of the games i'm doing so I can remember what happened. I don't want to fill the thread with small battle reports, but I think I should post them because they sometimes have problems or suggestions in there. That is up to you though.

Game 4 starting now...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4366573.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4366573.page GMT Kill Team rules rework.
Heavy weapons setting of the alarm automatically, that is definatley something i'm putting into V0.1.2 which I'll be posting probably after work tonight.

The bomb itself, considering is a nuke, i'd say no it's not disgused, the idea being to get in and out without being detected (or rather the alarm being raised)

Hold off on the armour save, i'm considering whether or not to leave them as stated in the codexs. My thinking on this if we go with SM for example, you can get more scout based brute sqauds than you would with basic SM. So it's a trade off to a point, more sqauds or sqauds that stay around a bit longer and slightly better at combat.

And please keep posting the reports it's interesting to see how they play out. if you feel that your going to be clogging up the thread you can PM them to me if you wish.

Thinking about it for stand alone purposes, yes if the attackers entire KT are killed then it's a failed mission.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4367419.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4367419.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework.
Sabotage game 3
DE kill team 200 (198)
3 reavers (1 heat lance)
10 kabalites (syb w p wep+ptl, cannon)

DE brutes
10 kabalite warriors
5 wyches
5 wyches

CSM kill team 200 (199)
8 chosen (1 champ w p wep, 1 h bolt, 2 plasgun)

CSM were Iron warriors, they were the attacker. Except for a heavy bolter on a building on the side, all of the attackers KT deployed in a corner opposite the defender's edge. Defender went 1st and for 2 turns the attacker got to move all the brutes. It looked like this would be a quick game until the defender got to move 1 of the wych squads closer. The Iron Warriors took a gamble when their champion got close to the objective instead lagging behind his team. When the defender got control of some wych brutes again this brought them in range of the champion, so they charged. Unluckily the champion died and 1 of the plasma gun chosen was still engaged. However because the majority of the Iron Warriors team was right there, the wych charge made it so most came within spot distance, plus they survived the cc, so the alarm was at 9 points. On the chaos turn they moved some guys within spotting distance of the kabalite warriors, setting off the alarm. I think the wych brutes killed the plasma gunner in cc, then were removed at the end of the turn.

However, the bomb carriers were at the building, so as long as they survived the defender's 1st real turn the Iron Warriors would win. The reavers came in 36", flying over the bomb carriers and killing 1 of them with their jetbike blades (or w/e). Chaos moved to open fire at the reavers, while also moving another guy to help with the bomb. The reavers were the only threat, because it would take the kabalites at least 2 turns to even get LOS to the bomb team. In shooting the plasma gun killed himself, leaving only 3 bolters and a heavy bolter on the chaos side. All reavers lived, so I thought the game was over. The bomb team ended up surviving 2 drive-bys and a heat lance. 1 chaos marine still in sight died to kabalite shooting, the heavy bolter survived tons of poisoned splinters.

On chaos turn the bomb was set. The heavy bolter marine ducked behind his building, being out of sight now and right near the table edge. The 2 who planted the bomb scattered for the nearest edges. They died to the reavers, but the heavy bolter made it out. So chaos had won.

This game would've been pointless to play out if the DE didn't have reavers. However, I don't think it has to do with the scenario but rather extreme luck with moving the brutes. If the chaos champion didn't get too close to the wyches the bomb could've been planted with the alarm points still at 0. The game does show though that KT's with no fast movement are pretty bad at stopping the bomb from being planted. In such a case they basically have to rely on the alarm going off early, not a good thing to rely on.

Maybe if the defender gets 2 table edges to come in on that might make it alot easier. Then again it could also mean that planting the bomb in such a crossfire becomes nearly impossible.

--
Sabotage game 4
CSM kill team 200 (196)
7 plaguemarines (1 plasma, 1 flamer, 1 ch)

CSM brutes (not much else you can do with the plaguemarine theme)
3 plaguemarines
3 plaguemarines
4 plaguemarines

IG kill team 200
armored sentinel (camo net, autocannon)
vet sq (3 sniper, 1 launcher, sentries)

IG attacked and went first. They deploy 3 snipers on a landing pad in the corner. Missile team on high ground with cover on one of the 'neutral' edges, with the sentinel out of sight behind it. Sergeant and 4 lasgun vets deploy in the middle opposite defender's edge, with the bomb.

Snipers move to edge of land pad, taking cover behind it's raised shields. Sgt and 4 vets move the bomb closer to the target building. With a lucky roll next turn they could run and reach it, but with a very very unlucky roll the 2 brute squads of 3 could move 6" and possibly get within initiative range. Of course this ends up happening with 1 squad as the defender moves both 6". So 3 plaguemarines fire bolt pistols and charge into a lone guardsmen (barely unable to reach the other 4 veterans). The guardsman somehow survives 3 bolt pistol shots and 12 cc attacks. There are currently 5 alarm points.

IG turn, the 4 unengaged guardsmen leave their friend to fire on the other brute squad. Adding 4 alarm points for coming in range, plus another 4 for shooting. It didn't matter much because the sentinel and missile launcher were going to fire too. The engaged guardsman suffers a single wound from the 3 plaguemarines. Turn end, so brutes disappear. This is weird because if those 6 plaguemarines stayed they'd be able to decimate the guardsmen nearby and probably kill the rest of the army. Rules is rules.

So from the defender's edge the new plaguemarine squad is spread out and running. If IG roll even average they would get the bomb to the building, which is really weird because the alarm going off early was supposed to be a defender advantage. IG fail to reach the building. Plaguemarines run again, except 1 that fires on the missile team with no cover (doing nothing). Snipers and sentinel miss or do nothing, missile launcher kills the plaguemarine who shot at it. Sgt stays with the bomb team in case 1 somehow dies, they get the bomb into position.

The missile launcher survives a hideous amount of bolter fire. The plaguemarine with the nurgle equivalent of a flamer moves 6" and sprays acidic barf over the wall onto the sergeant and bomb planters. Game appears to be over, but 3 1's are rolled to wound. No other plaguemarines can target them, so bomb ends up being set on the IG turn. In celebration the sergeant charges the plague champion and dies. Snipers and sentinel do nothing. Missile launcher probably pops a gooey marine.

So the game could be easily won if the sentinel just leaves the board, but I decide to stay and see how much I could kill. Snipers finally kill 1 guy, everything else sucks. Besides easily blowing away the snipers, from then on the plaguemarines have the most hideous luck with their bolters. The sentinel and missile launcher sit there firing and no marine ever makes it to combat or ends up getting through the launcher's cover. IG have a total win.

Seeing this game helps me believe that fast units are not required, which is good. With such small forces luck and equipment play a major part in determining odds of winning.

--
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4368289.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4368289.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules rework. BA kill team 200 (195)
tac sq +5 (flamer, h plas, sgt w m bomb, p wep)

BA brutes 250 (238)
scout sq (shotguns)
scout sq (combat blades)
3 scouts (bolters)
2 scouts + sgt (bolters)

DE kill team 200
10 trueborn (dracon w p wep, 1 dark lance, 1 can, 1 shred, 1 blast, plas grens)

This time the objective building is the skyshield(?) landing pad, so it's alot harder to plant the bomb and stay out of sight. DE attack from opposite the defender's zone, and again the defender goes 1st. The scouts start to slowly move away from the objective. The DE sneak forward, giggling psychotically in the darkness. In a total psyk-out the scouts all of a sudden rush into the darkness and peer around for intruders. The DE sneak away to mostly back against their table edge. Al l seems quiet now, but they don't believe it. The scouts rush right at the DE hiding positions somehow revealing lots of DE with question marks above their heads. Being asses, they now normal acting scouts fire 10 shotgun blasts at the dracon, blowing her away.

DE retaliate in force, which sets off the alarm. Due to bad DE roll-playing and sneaky sneaky scout casualty removal, the shotgun sergeant survives the round, so no free pain token for anyone. The scouts scatter into the darkness as a BA tactical squad comes in on the other end of the board. 5 marines with bolters go around 1 side while the rest of the squad goes the other, this should catch the DE from both sides. The dark lance snipes the heavy plasma gun. The DE move the bomb into position, but one of the carriers is sniped out by a single bolter shell from a single marine.

Marines on the other side take up firing positions behind a ruined wall. The DE move more people to the bomb. The splinter cannon fires maniacally, catching a marine with a random headshot. The shredder and blaster move up to try and stall the 4 bolter marines, killing 1. The blaster gets his arm blown off, but he just laughs, he is already high for this fight. 2 marines move up to see a bomb planter, and they blow him apart. It's just not a lucky place to stand I guess.

On the other side the sergeant grits his teeth through the pain of multiple splinter hits, but endures. The flamer marine jumps the wall and roasts one of the DE trueborn shooting from cover. The sergeant then charges into the other and beheads it. The DE see that this bomb thing is not going to happen, they must try to kill all the marines.

Ditching the bomb, 2 DE blow away the sergeant and flamer. The splinter cannon kills another, leaving only 1 bolter marine alive on that side. The dark lance misses fires across the board to help the shredder and blaster, killing a guy. The blaster DE kills another marine. The shredder, the only one not high from pain, misses wildly at the last marine on that side, but charges up to him and kicks him in the nuts, killing him somehow. The one remaining marine moves to cover and rapid fires, doing nothing. The whole DE force turns on him and he explodes. DE get a total win.

I thought the DE would be at a disadvantage due to the target building's design. Who would've thought trueborn were more than a fair fight for marines.

--
I didn't want to do any more sabotages at this point, but I wanted to make sure the attacker doesn't win every game. So I decided to do 2 more. Same terrain.

Sabotage game 7
IG kill team 200
plat cmd (p wep+plaspis, h flamer)
2 inf sq (1 sniper, 1 gren launch, 2 autocannon)

IG brutes 250
vet sq
plat cmd sq
guard sq
guard sq
guard sq

BA kill team 200
6 vanguard veterans (jump packs)(1 sgt w glaive encarmine, 1 w m bombs)

BA attack and go 1st. They move closer, barely. Defender moves 2 brute squads closer. 3 vanguard charge 1 brute squad, 3 charge the other. They don't fire pistols first. They don't kill many guardsmen, but they do cause 1 unit to flee (successfully). Since both brute squads survived, the alarm points are now at 8. Should a fleeing brute squad coming within spot range of another brute unit add alarm points?

The defenders turn is a lame cc, but the brutes again don't flee. On the attackers turn they put the bomb guys against the building while the only free vanguard charges into the broken brute squad. This sets off the alarm, and the following hand to hand is uneventful. Now the IG come on the board, but either nothing has range or it can't shoot because it moved. Bomb is then planted and the IG have no chance of killing off all the vanguard before they get away. BA win.

I don't think what happened this game was normal, but it happens. IG should've taken something that could shoot the 1st turn.

--
Sabotage game 8
Same terrain.

IG kill team 200
3 ogryns
chimera (extra armor)

IG brutes 250
vet sq
plat cmd sq
guard sq
guard sq
guard sq

Tau kill team 200
4 stealth suits
8 fire warriors

Tau attack and go 1st. The attackers kind've deploy in a corner. The fire warriors move up their firing line, ready to shoot if the guard squad comes closer. The stealth suits fly to a setup a crossfire. The guardsmen start to wander away and the tau stay a distance behind them. But wait, someone forgot their lho sticks, so the guard squad starts to come back. The tau figured where they are is good enough, and open fire. This instantly sets off the alarm. The bomb carriers make a lucky run move to the objective.

This game the IG have something mobile that can shoot the bomb team down, but the chimera misses. That's pretty much the game. Tau win.

It seems pointless to have done these 2 extra games, but maybe something can be learned from it. I think part of the reason this brute defense failed again is because there were too few squads. Groups of 5 would've worked better.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I was sick of doing sabotage games, but seeing as the attackers won almost every time I'm thinking the scenario still has to be worked on. I'm going to randomize KT's again and do more games. However, this time i'm adding a major change. The defender's KT sets up within 6" of his board edge, they just never do anything until the alarm goes off. While they are sitting there they have the same detection range as brutes, and if an enemy attacks them or comes within spot distance the alarm goes off automatically. Because they never get moved by the defender in the early game, they don't get a spot chance to detect vehicles.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4369261.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4369261.page GMT Kill Team rules rework. KT models? I'm thinking this might have a big impact at times.

Anyway still working on V0.1.2 atm, i'll get them up as soon as their done.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4369883.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4369883.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V01.2 Updated 07/06/12.
The new rules you put up look fine, except;
I don't know if squads of 3-5 is a good idea. That forces all brute squads to be small, which makes it more likely the attacker will get surrounded and discovered. It's really a better size for brute units, so maybe the flaw is in the rule that the defender moves the unit on a tie. I think that on a tie the unit should perhaps not move at all (but still get spot checks for vehicles).

Lowering the alarm points to that low pretty much removes assaulting from the opening sequence. Combined with brute squads not disappearing (which wasn't realistic anyways) this pretty much forces the game to become stealth only. I don't think stealth should be the only option, but it's looking like the attacker can't win unless he spends an extra 3 points per model. Silencing a flamer or grenade launcher seems odd too.

I think we should add to the heavy weapon rule that any blast or template also sets off the alarm. Or say the rule for silencers is that it can only be applied to starting equipment. Or say can't be applied to blast/template weapons.

--
I'm going to remake my kill teams and do some more games, with all the rules as you have them now...

--
I don't know if this is working. DE vs IG took an hour just for the alarm to go off. IG have guns in their squads, yet they still have 70 models. There are so many brutes the attacker can't move. It's just a matter of sitting there and shooting them as they inevitably come to you. We'll see how it ends.

What about this for alarm points?
"All alarm points gained for a turn are added at the end of that turn. The following each add 1 alarm point;
-brutes are hit by a non-melee attack and survive until the end of the turn
-brutes are assaulted and survive until end of turn
-a brute unit comes within spot range of any # of enemy units for any reason
-a brute unit is wiped out within spot range of any friendly unit
-one of the defenders broken units moves within spot range of any friendly unit that turn
-each attacking or defending unit that fires an unsilenced weapon or uses anything requiring a blast or template
-each attacking unit that reaches the objective of a sabotage game

Any of the following set off the alarm automatically at the end of the turn;
-any unit (friend or foe) fires a non-silenced heavy weapon
-any of the defenders non-brute units are assaulted or attacked
-any of the defenders non-brute units end up within spot range of an enemy
-an attacker's vehicle is spotted by any of the defenders units (either by coming in spot range of anything or by a brute unit having LOS and being within 2d6x3" at the beginning of it's shooting phase)"

I think that with the above wording for the alarm we can keep all other things as is. Of course this has to be tested. Do you think this is a useable set of alarm guidelines?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4370281.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4370281.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V01.2 Updated 07/06/12.
As for the lowering of the alarm points the attacker still has 7 counters to play with. 5 is when even with a roll of 1 the defender moves the squad, however it staying in place also sounds good, so i might increase this to 6. which at that point there would be no ties... I'm going to try the alarm counters at 6 and then 8 myself see how it is and have ties leave the squads in place... the more i think about it the more i like it.

Would you say scrap the +1 alarm when a vehicle moves more than 6"?

Also was playing around with army builder, it seems that IG aren't the only ones that would have a ridiculus amount of models on the table as brutes, so i'm thinking of coming up a seperate stat line for brutes and each defending player gets a set number organised into squads of probably 4, say maybe 20 brutes either in 4's or 5's, can not have a mix of squad sizes. What do you think?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4375082.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4375082.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V01.2 Updated 07/06/12.
I think if you say each army's brutes are set squads then that is certainly easier, but I think it's too close to the 4th edition rules. Still not sure if that's bad or not.

In that game where DE had 14 and IG had 75+, the DE actually won, easily. So maybe the brutes just being 250 points of w/e they want to take is fine.

I'm going to test more at 6 and 8 alarm points, with ties not moving anything. I'll use the alarm points I wrote down, plus the over 6" vehicle thing. I hoped my alarm point rules gave some options for the attacker outside of sitting there mass firing at brutes who wander by. I also tried to make them intuitive, giving an alarm point in any situation where it makes sense the defender's side would get more suspicious.

---
edit
Here is the alarm conditions I put up earlier, but modified;

"All alarm points gained for a turn are added at the end of that turn. The following each add 1 alarm point;
-at the end of the attacker's turn roll a d6, on a 4+ an alarm point is added
-the device reaches the objective in a sabotage game

Any of the following set off the alarm automatically at the end of the turn;
-a brute unit moved by the defender comes within spot range of any enemy units
-a brute unit is attacked and survives until end of turn
-a brute unit is wiped out within spot range of any friendly unit
-any unit (friend or foe) fires an unsilenced weapon
-any of the defenders non-brute units are assaulted or attacked
-any of the attackers units end up within spot range of a defender's non-brute unit
-an attacker's vehicle or MC is spotted by any of the defenders units (either by coming in spot range of anything or by a brute unit having LOS and rolling the required distance as determined by night fighting (2d6x3")) at the beginning of it's shooting phase)"

Additional rules;
-heavy weapons, blasts, and templates cannot be silenced
-sniper weapons are always silence for free
-no one moves a brute unit on a tie
-whoever moves a brute unit can do so up to the number rolled on their dice in inches
-once the alarm reaches 6 points the defender may use all brute units as normal units
-once the alarm reaches 8 points the defender's kill team activates
-2 models must carry the device in a sabotage game, these models may only travel on foot and must stay in b2b contact, they can still run, but would obviously be limited by the speed of the slower model. If the model(s) carrying the device are killed then place a marker where they died. The marker represents the device until a friendly model picks it up again.

I still don't know how to solve the issue of the device being activated out of sight of the defender. Though if it's in sight then it's too easy to stop it. Out of sight the defender must rely on brutes or having a fast unit. In too many situations is the game either impossible for the attacker or too easy...

I'll test with the above changes. They are easy to remember at least. Perform perfectly or the alarm will go off.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4375388.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4375388.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V01.2 Updated 07/06/12.
Lol, you went and edited your post as i was writting this... the dead body thing would be realistic but i feel too much will be going on to include it.

I'm liking some of the rules your pumping out, I'm also going to changing the deployment on a per scenario basis, so things may become easier/harder dependent on conditions. Mainish change will be the silencers, I'm taking this one straight from 4th ed 'Silencers cost 10pts for the whole team, restrictions apply on certain weapons'

I'm not too keen on the alarm being set off automatically with a few of the ones below, i'll certainly consider them, there is always margin for error.

In a sabotage scenario, i would hope that the bomb be represented by a 25mm base modeled appropriately (I'm in the course of building one myself) but yes the 2 models must stay in b2b contact with it at all times. I was thinking of making them unable to run or halving the distance rolled but we shall see.

I guess when i finish the scenario itself things may start to fall into place. The main thing is that these base rules must be compatible with the other 3 scenarios I'm planning to do. Assassination is being worked on as we speak the other 2 are Raid and Infiltrate. In my campaign the Infiltrate mission lead on to a Zone Mortalis battle, I love the Mortalis rules FW put out.

I guess atm the 'Device reaching the objective' would be a scenario based special rule, similar to the assassination where if the target is attacked in any way the alarm is raised immediately. I guess each scenario will have it's own set of special rules.

Best bit so far, got a gaming friend of mine coming for a few days next week... serious play testing. He's actually playing Orcs in the campaign, so i guess his input is needed as well.

Anyway need to get a new version of the sabotage scenario up...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4378658.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4378658.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V01.2 Updated 07/06/12. KT activate. Too many situations were coming up where anyone but a total moron would've alerted his allies in some way. I could understand hearing weapons fire adding alarm points instead of setting off the alarm, but very little else seems realistic to not.

Silencers 10 points per squad? I like that better. I'm still wondering if only basic weapons can be silenced, and whether it should be free.

I had to add in the 4+ per attacker turn alarm point to prevent the attacker from dragging the game out forever waiting for the perfect brute movement rolls.

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Oh, and I don't think device reaching the target has to set off the alarm. By that point the attacker either already won or lost.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4378943.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4378943.page GMT Kill Team rules V01.2 Updated 07/06/12. KT moves behind a brute squad no alarm counter is added. All brutes MUST face the same direction.

In theory this should bring in more tactical movement.

Also if assaulted from behind the attackers KT hits ignore armour saves.

Just a thought.

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hmm yeah the 4+ thing would work in that case, consider it added.

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10pts for the entire Kill Team on the silceners same as the old 4th ed rule. I was thinking after playing battlefield.. i run around with a silenced M60 or RPK 74 so in theory a heavy bolter could be silenced. Or atleast thats my method of thinking.

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lol, you could imagine someone moving behind them, then the defender getting control of the squad and turning them round immediately setting off the alarm.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4378968.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4378968.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V01.2 Updated 07/06/12. KT is so miniscule I don't think it matters. 190 pt KT is almost the same as a 200. With brutes staying no one would ever want to purposefully set off the alarm, so silencers would be taken every game. If people want to not, then i guess suicide is their choice.

So facing is 180 degrees? I like the facing so you can run by brutes who aren't paying attention.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4379017.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4379017.page GMT Kill Team rules V01.2 Updated 07/06/12.
we'll try the silencers as 10pts per squad, defender obviously doesn't get the option.

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Vehicles cant take them either, forgot to add that bit.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4379050.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4379050.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.0 Updated 07/06/12.
I also want to change the "unit wiped out in within detection range sets off the alarm", and change it to "unit wiped out within initiative range." Then add the rule that the alarm always goes off at the end of the turn, but if the units which have been alerted are wiped out before then the alarm won't go off. This change basically means if the defender ends up setting off the alarm on their turn, it's likely that only 1 or 2 brute units will be attacking you, as compared to the whole army turning instantly. That would also give the attacker 1 more turn to maneuver before the defender's KT activates, so they won't end up facing 400 points at once. I suspect most defender KT's will have fast units in them, so stopping the device from activating doesn't get any harder.

For sabotage i'm putting the objective in the middle. Defender chooses a table edge and sets up his KT within 6", and his brutes anywhere except 6" from an edge. Attacker then deploys anywhere on the board within 6" of a table edge, not starting in intiative range of any enemies. 1 in 6 for defender to get the 1st turn.

What i'm seeing is that the attacker usually moves a bit, then waits for a good opportunity from the defender's brute movement. Defenders have the best chance by having brute squads trying to move together (dice willing), at least to be within initiative range. Once the end of turn alarm points start getting added games become the defender moving brute squads to seek out the attacker's KT. Though with few alarm points the defenders units don't always move reliably. Seeking out the attacker's KT seems fine as the brutes usually have reason to be suspicious, but too many brute squads make it impossible to take any out without setting off the alarm. The longer the attacker waits for a brute squad to isolate itself, the more likely the defender will have control of the units, which is why I set the end of turn thing to 5+. Many times have I seen the attacker cornered.

It's rare to see a close game of sabotage, it's usually 1 side win easily. The game is more of a KT vs brutes. I think the changes i've made will make it more balanced. I'm curious as to where you're at with ideas.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386203.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386203.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.0 Updated 07/06/12.
At the moment I haven't had chance to play with the V0.2.0 rules yet, been busy with work and such. Got my mate coming round tuesday thro wednesday so plenty of games shall be had. Altho we will also be going through the campaign rules themselves aswell but thats a different thing.

My mate plays orcs, so it could be interesting, have to wait an see.

It's still early days to a point, when i get chance I'll really work on the scenarios themselves.

Also thinking of changing the turn thingy, attacker always gets first turn. Would make sense to a point but theres always a chance... hmmm.

So you mean something like...

Should a friendly unit be wiped out within initiative range of another friendly the unit, that unit becomes alerted. Should the alerted unit survive to the end of the turn the alarm is raised.

???

Looking through V0.2.0 i haven't even included it in that version....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386257.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386257.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.0 Updated 09/06/12.
It just seems weird to me that if guns are being fired then it only adds alarm points and not sets off the alarm.

I also don't know if an assault should automatically add alarm points, that eliminates silent takedowns.

You should specifiy passive spotting range as only in the 180 degree arc.

You should also only let brutes active spot vs vehicles, spotting normal units would make the games very short.

I think we should put some thought into jump packs and terminators. I find terminators sneaking around to be weird, and jump packs aren't always silent, plus an airborn target is easier to spot. Maybe treat jump packs like vehicles, if over 6" it adds an alarm point?

Also what is the final rulings on allowing deep strike, reserves, and infiltrate?

Oh, and also, you mention brutes have to follow squad sizes as indicated in the codex. No more splitting them in 3-5's?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386364.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386364.page GMT Kill Team rules V0.2.0 Updated 09/06/12.
KT rules dont allow any units to be in reserve, everything must be on the table from the get go. although models with infiltrate still get to deploy further in than normal.

Hadn't really thought about terminators will have to think on that, but as for jump/jet packs i think that if they use the jump/jet pack in any manner not just minimum distance.

Active spotting on vehicles only, consider that altered.

Noted on the passive checks, i did miss putting that in.

The only issue i see with using alerted rather gathering points is that KT act as seperate units, a single SM isn't gonna do gak against a 10 man orc squad.
Could go with if any brute squad becomes alerted then the alarm roll at the end of the turn becomes a 4+ rather than 5+.

Silent takedowns are only possible if attacking from behind, I'm going to add that 'attackers hit automatically if striking from behind in addition to striking first and ignoring armour'.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386412.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386412.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.0 Updated 09/06/12.
I've noticed that you really have to concentrate fire to take out brute squads. I think having them bigger might make it impossible to take out some units. However, it's in the defenders best interests to have as many brute squads as possible, so I guess that's the gamble they take.

Oops, and active spotting is on vehicles and maybe monstrous.

I'll try this out again.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386441.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386441.page GMT Kill Team rules V0.2.0 Updated 09/06/12.
remember brute squads can ONLY be troop choices so doubt ful thered be any termi brute squads.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386458.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386458.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.0 Updated 09/06/12. GK's]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386465.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386465.page GMT Kill Team rules V0.2.0 Updated 09/06/12.

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6 at most with them being 40 each

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single guys not squads that is]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386478.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386478.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.0 Updated 09/06/12. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386486.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386486.page GMT Kill Team rules V0.2.0 Updated 09/06/12. LOS and such yes they should be able to, however each scenario will have specific deplyment rules and in sabotage the defenders KT cannot be deplyed more than 12" from the defenders edge... atleast for now thats how I'm having it.

Same goes for brute squads, they can only be deployed in a certain area... basically for brutes drop all special rules until they become active and to a point same for the defender's KT special rules dont apply until they are active.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386500.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386500.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12.
I also have this feeling that as soon as we get these rules right the 6th edition book will come out and have already improved KT.

I think what we have is pretty much good. You just have to decide on a few things or how stuff works;
-Can you run with the device?
-terminators
-jump packs/jet packs
-should tanks/walkers just be banned?
-doing something so that squad options still do something, such as medics (maybe a small radius or b2b instead), things like righteous fury and litanies of hate might apply to all friendlies who charge into the same combat

I also think you reconsider letting brutes split their fire, especially because that makes charging weird.

I recommend the following rules;
Weapons on a vehicle can fire at different targets.
Unique characters and upgrade characters which cost more than 50 points are not allowed.
I thought there was more, but I forgot...

I believe letting HQ's that are no more than 50 points should be allowed in KT. It gives more variety, making it feel more like a special unit. I don't think it's overpowered, especially when some armies can get dreadnoughts, special characters, and heroes as elites (BA blood chalices...). This is basically all that would be allowed (I'm not going thru every book);
big mek with 15 points of gear
unequipped haemonculus
enginseer with melta bombs
ministorum priest w no eviscerator
co. command squad with only lasguns or laspistols
sgt telion
inquisitors (also the only way to field henchmen)
ethereal w 2 cc weapons
herald of tzeentch, nurgle, or slaanesh w no upgrades

my necrons are outdated, so idk about them. Also, lol sob...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386782.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4386782.page GMT Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12. UK at lease 6th is coming 23/6/12.... As normal GW aren't giving much away.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4387224.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4387224.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12.
Just to let you know, i've yet to win a game as attacker.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4389315.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4389315.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12.

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Also, how did your games go?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4398703.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4398703.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12.
Anyway, brutes do indeed have to be minimum size... at least they do now after my games. Take Orcs for example... 240 points will net you 4 squads of 10, only at that point can you take a squad over minimum size. thinking about it squad leaders/segeants are removed from the equation and replaced with standard troops (which enables SM to take 3 squads).

So I had 6 sabotage and 4 assassination games and a little peek at the raid scenerio (which still needs a lot work), alternating between attacker & defender. Me i was playing as standard marine and my battle brother was playing orcs, so we had huge numbers and elite troopers Both myself and my battle brother feel the core rules work pretty well as they are, except we removed brute squad armour saves all together after the first couple of games, the squad heading played a huge part aswell (sternguard vets wiping out a 10 strong squad of orcs before they know what happened). This helped immensely when facing tough units, after all they are pretty much just guarding the area not on full alert.

So Sabotage, first 2 games were as stated in the rules... this didn't go well might of just been dice rolling in controlling of the brutes, but in the second set i overhauled the deployment for both defender and attacker, this worked wonders. The change that had the most impact was making the attacker 'ROLL' for which side they enter on, this stops the defender bunching up the brutes as they don't know where they'll be coming in from. The objective has moved bac to the center of the table equal distance from all 4 sides. So the table sides basically go moving clockwise... Defenders edge, D6 of 1-2, D6 of 3-4, D6 of 5-6. Also the defenders KT can only deploy in a triangle behind the objective, take the center point and dram a line to each corner of the defenders edge. Attacker deployment once rolled for is 6" on the table but not within 12" of the defender table edge. After we made these changes we had 3 very close games and 1 where my mates Orcs kicked my

arse good and proper... not even setting off the alarm until the bomb got to the building and he still managed to get the half of his KT off the table... I say half because the rest got mauled by my KT... (landspeeder & 5 assault marines 12" move and fire).

Assassination went fairly well with some of the changes I've brought in, I know I havent't posted an updated scenario for either of these thinking about it, must do that soon. The deployment of this one needs a little bit of work, also the target movement having him stand still was a little too easy for me at least (i took 5 sniper scouts bang bang bang dead), thinking about giving him a 2 person bodyguard which gives him a permenant 5+ cover save. Unfortunately my mate had to go before we got chance to try it out like that.

In summary it seams that deplyment makes a huge difference in the scenarios so I'm going to focus on balancing them first then work on the scenario special rules themselves. But whatever is was bloody good fun and certainly made a change from mindless seek and destroy that KT usually is.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4399115.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4399115.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12. cc troops very dangerous and ultimately makes the game harder for the attacker.

Also you cheated, KT is only allowed 1 fast attack.

Ok, so I have no clue what i'm doing wrong. You said sternguard take out 10 orks, but my sternguard can't take out 10 kroot. I'm even having trouble with 6 fire warriors at times, which is just bad rolling. I've tried to do this BA vs Tau scenario 4 times now and the alarm keeps going off on round 2. It's all because the brute squad size is too big to be taken out in 1 turn.

You also said that the random attacker deployment helps, but I see it as the attacker losing a choice. In my games the brute squads are deploying near the objective and staying in close range of each other, which is what's making it hard. If I ever manage to take 1 out, another ends up close enough where they saw it.

Also, in my games the attacker going first is usually worthless, as there is never a brute squad that is an easy target. So the attacker ends up sitting and praying they roll good on the defenders move brute phase.

So I don't know what to do.

I also think the brutes getting no armor saves makes it unbalanced for high armor armies. I think it would be better off having a set # of brute units in set squad sizes, ala 4th edition.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4399608.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4399608.page GMT Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12.
The orcs fell really quickly as i got in behind them plus bloody good rolling.

The random deployment, at the time it was a quick fix, but yes i'd aggree that the defender should get to choose.

So the brutes... while i don't want to do a carbon copy of 4th, i think that in the end we may have no choice. Orcs with 40 models, SM with 15. So do we make the brutes uniform through out by that i mean they all share the same stat line and each army gets exactly the same number or something else.....]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4400178.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4400178.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12. KT rules is that KT models are allowed to split their fire. I take it that this lets rapid fire and sustained fire weapons hit more than 1 target. This would've had very little effect on my games however.

... whoa, they used the exact same wording in the battles book as 4th ed, how sad... also in there they say jump infantry not moving on foot would add an alarm counter, so we seem to be on the same page pretty much.

Anyways. 4th edition KT either has some good rules or gives me some good ideas that I think are useable;
-brutes always use their own unmodified Ld for tests
-brutes squads can't start the game within initiative distance of a friendly unit
-attacking the defender's KT doesn't automatically set off the alarm, just treat them as brutes who don't move
-there are always 6 brute squads, the defender may choose any combination of the following;
BT=3 initiates/2 initiates+2 neophytes (maybe overpowered, but makes up for their crappy KT options)
CSM=3 CSM/6 cultists or mutants (guardsmen who can switch lasgun for cc+laspistol if desired)/2 plaguemarines/2 noise marines (1 can have a sonic blaster)/3 khorne berzerkers/3 thousand sons
Daemons=4 bloodletters/5 horrors/5 plaguebearers/5 daemonettes
DE=5 wyches (no drugs)/5 warriors
Eldar=6 guardians or storm guardians
IG=7 guardsmen
Inquisition=5 stormtroopers (as IG)
Orks=7 orks (cc+slugga or shootas)/9 gretchin
SM=3 tac marines/4 scouts
SW=3 grey hunters/3 bloodclaws
Tau=5 gun drones/7 kroot/6 fire warriors
Tyranids=6 hormagaunts/7 termagaunts/1 hive guard

If there was more I forgot it while writing.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4401967.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4401967.page GMT Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12.
Yikes at orc and IG... 42 models as brute squads.... may have to tone that down a bit, but we shall see.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4404310.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4404310.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12.
Going by my special formula, which isn't concrete to begin with, I used the amount of brutes in a normal KT game to find a base #. I then modified depending on a models initiative and how tough they are to kill. If they had special rules that make them extra cheesy then that could've applied as well. This gave me numbers ranging from 1 to 10 models. Certain things were then modified to account for numbers and the advantage/disadvantage those bring. So this moved all of the high and low end numbers more toward the middle.

Too small and the brute squads can't support each other as easy, and they are also easier to kill. Large numbers not only let you cover more of the board but it increases the liklihood (or however you spell it...) that you can threaten the attackers while still having some models out of sight. In such a situation your squad could basically set off the alarm instantly if they are shot at and models are removed in a beneficial way (aka they get blasted and the only guy left is now out of sight from half the KT who didn't shoot).

The stormtroopers and fire warriors were lowered by 1 just because they seemed unfair. The orks at 7 and gretchin at 9 seems weird to me, but you can't really let the gretchin have more than that. Also unsure if allowing a hive guard as an option is a good idea, but it makes sense to fluff. For specific story games you could allow other things if it makes more sense.

It's a great theory if I do say so myself

, but there's nothing to say it works.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4405258.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4405258.page GMT Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12. GK.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4409025.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4409025.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12. GK are inquisition.

So I tested 1 game with BA attacking Tau in sabotage. I'm thinking that 5 brute squads might be better than 6, 4x4 board is small. I think for every extra 2' of table 1 or 2 more should be added. 1 game test is nothing, so not sure of anything yet.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4409125.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4409125.page GMT Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12. atm so haven't had any time to work on any of this. I'll get back on it as soon as i can.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4427606.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4427606.page GMT Re:Kill Team rules V0.2.1 Updated 11/06/12. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4429006.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/452985/4429006.page GMT