<![CDATA[Latest posts for the thread "Machine Spirit?"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/31.page JForum - http://www.jforum.net Machine Spirit? x peice of tech, the final, most advanced entry was about utilizing technology with 'Machine Spirits'. I have a vague idea that these are basically the life/complex wiring inside machines, but what actually are they and what machines have them?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393323.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393323.page GMT Machine Spirit? 40k lore. They are the basis for the entire Machine Cult and the term can mean many different things.

First, a machine spirit can refer to the spiritualization of any piece of machinery, from the oils and maintenance needed for a lasgun, to making sure your car has windshield wiper fluid. This is just anthropomorphizing the device's function.

Second, the machine spirit can be an actual thing. More advanced tech will almost always have a biological component built into it, such as pieces of human brain matter in the case of servitors and servo skulls. In this way, the machine's can be said to have that living creature's spirit, though it is only using the most basic and primal functions of the brain to do its duty.

Third, is the definition Black Crusade is referring to. Ultra advanced devices, such as starship cores, titans, and super computers have such advanced circuitry and programming they're effectively AI and almost always develop personalities of their own. This is a true machine spirit and unlike the previous two, when they talk about appeasing the machine spirit, they literally mean giving it what it wants without letting it go on a rampage. Titans in particular have a tendency of trying to overpower their pilot's minds, as they're more than capable of controlling themselves, though not in the most beneficial matter.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393369.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393369.page GMT Machine Spirit? WTF does anthropomorphizing mean?]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393471.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393471.page GMT Machine Spirit? GW once published a Land Raider cross section where you could see its Machine Spirit, and it was a human brain.

Anything else, which pretty much means all technology in the Imperium not incorporating brains or pieces of brains, is merely widespread superstition propagated by the Cult Mechanicus as part of its religion.

Urien_Rakarth wrote:On thing... WTF does anthropomorphizing mean?
It's when you apply human characteristics on something else.

On the internet, "anthro" often means furries. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393553.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393553.page GMT Machine Spirit?
Urien_Rakarth wrote:Ok thanks, I am V.enlightened! On thing... WTF does anthropomorphizing mean?


It's like when you give your car a name, and attribute it's behavior to emotions and moods. If it doesn't start in the morning it is because it's jeleous you didn't go out off roading over the weekend. If it breaks down it's because it's sick.

As Urien said, machine spirits are a complex thing, and there are many equally valid possible interpretations.

Many will tell you they are merely cargo cultism, e.g. superstition.

Still others discuss it as a useful way in helping the masses of uneducated, diverse humans interact with dangerous tech. A barbarian guardsman, for example, wont understand capacitors, ammunition, the importance of oiling his gun, of why a car needs gas. But he does understand religion and ritual. So the trainers explain that to make the spirit of the gun happy they must anoint it with oils after every battle and turn the screws of spiritual binding if they come loose, as they represent the looseness of ones soul. Every day they must feed the spirit of the tank holy promethium (gasoline) or it will become angry and not start.

Some say it is just a way for the ad-mech to control humanity and maintain their own power. By painting everything in mysticism, and themselves as wizards, they cow the general populace (and their own, younger tech priests).

Other interpretations claim that ancient man used primitive AI in nearly everything, and over the millennia it has gone a bit crazy. In this interpretation many simple objects (like las guns) may have simple AI, and the Ad-mech has never had the time or resources to go around fixing all the insane ones (for example, if 1:3 Leman Russ tanks were infected the Imperium has never had the luxury to pull 1:3 of it's tanks off the battle field for major repairs). So they put in stop-gap measures (appeasing the machine spirits with prayers, oils, nice treatment, etc) until they could do proper cleansings. After 10k years of this it has become superstition, and is really just a good idea. You never know if your lasgun may be a little crazy, so it's best just to treat ALL lasguns as though they were.

As Urien mentioned, the Imperium is also fond of using 'biological computers', i.e. living brains, in their tech. They do this because in the past their AI turned on them (see aforementioned crazy AI), and biological brains are just safer, though they can be a bit temperamental.

Other interpretations point to composite, emergent AI developing over the centuries. After 10k years work working, with little proper maintenance certain machines (space ships especially) naturally developed personalities. Again, it's best just to treat ALL tech as though it has feelings rather than risk your tank refusing to fire because you made fun of it.

Finally, there is the true AI, such as that found in a Land Raider or a Titan. True AI is heresy, to the Ad-mech hides it by calling it a 'machine spirit'.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393588.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393588.page GMT Re:Machine Spirit?
Independent AI capable of self replication is Heresy.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393645.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393645.page GMT Machine Spirit?
riplikash wrote:Finally, there is the true AI, such as that found in a Land Raider or a Titan. True AI is heresy, to the Ad-mech hides it by calling it a 'machine spirit'.
I always thought that cyberfied brains don't qualify as AI (and henceforth are not subjected to the ban) because they're not, well, artificial. It's not something they hide like a big secret, just a matter of definition. Kind of like the Ecclesiarchy having "no men under arms".

Matter of interpretation, though, just as you said. Personally, I'll also never buy into stuff like lasguns actually having a machine spirit as they strike me as purely mechanical constructs, like a pen or a glowlamp. Same for Leman Russes. To me, the Land Raider is one of the few pieces of machinery that has an actual machine spirit, and this is what helps making it special. That being said, would the same apply to a servitor, or are its motive functions dominated entirely by a simple computer without an actual intelligence rather than a cyberfied brain? I suppose it's just a computer, given that servitors seem devoid of any emotions or traces of independent thought, capable only of following their most basic programming.
Maybe the lines between a true machine spirit and a simple computer (or rather "cogitator") are somewhat blurred in this case, defined only by whether the computer is controlling the brain, or vice versa, and by how independent a given piece of technology can truly act.

Anyways, I'm not entirely sure which definition FFG's RPGs are following, but given how their Tech Priests are able to remotely unjam a purely mechanical weapon with a wave of their hands or by sprinkling a bit of water on it, I would say that these books are following a more "magical" approach. It's not something anyone playing in FFG's version of the 40k verse actually has to pay attention to, though, given that the characters should always assume that any piece of technology has a spirit, regardless of whether that's true or not.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393679.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393679.page GMT Machine Spirit?
Lynata wrote:I always thought that cyberfied brains don't qualify as AI (and henceforth are not subjected to the ban) because they're not, well, artificial. It's not something they hide like a big secret, just a matter of definition. Kind of like the Ecclesiarchy having "no men under arms".

Perfectly valid, certainly. I just remember some sources speculating the reason it was called a 'machine spirit' in a Land Raider was because it may technically be a violation of the AI proscription.

Matter of interpretation, though, just as you said. Personally, I'll also never buy into stuff like lasguns actually having a machine spirit as they strike me as purely mechanical constructs, like a pen or a glowlamp.


I've always been a fan of the idea that ancient humanity networked EVERYTHING, much like we are beginning to do today, and that STC's build a lot of features into tech that the current Imperium has lost the knowledge to utilize. Las guns, for example, may have had simple internal computers for many reasons: battlefield tracking, inventory tracking, locking weapons to their proper users, and as early warning systems against infiltrators. That computing space either already had a simple AI or was invaded by a rogue one at some point. That combined with the fact that latent human psychic ability and chaos influence makes reality a bit elastic makes it possible for certain rogue AIs to exist in most tech. Again, just one of the possible interpretations I always liked.

It also explains the ability of certain Necrons to take control of human tech.

...the characters should always assume that any piece of technology has a spirit, regardless of whether that's true or not.


I think this is key here. The one interpretation I really don't like is "it's pure, stupid superstition". It seems pretty clear the wisest course of action in the 40k universe is just to assume everything has a machine spirit. Leman Russ tanks and lasguns may be purely mechanical, but the tech at work is so advanced, so poorly maintained, so poorly understood, and has been exposed to so many millennia of subtle psyker influence that it is just in everyones best influences to do what the local tech priest says.

Maybe the ritual is just a bunch of nonsense engulfing some basic maintenance practices, but your sure going to feel pretty silly ignoring the chanting portion if your tank stops working right in the middle of a horde of orks.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393948.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4393948.page GMT Machine Spirit?
riplikash wrote:exposed to so many millennia of subtle psyker influence
That's a pretty scary thought that didn't even occur to me until now. What if ... lots of machinery is actually possessed by something accidentally conjured out of the warp? A presence not advanced or intelligent enough to manifest itself as a truly independent daemon or even be recognizable for what it is, but just enough as to affect how a normal piece of technology may work by reacting on outside stimuli (being "appeased" or "angered") to its rudimental emotional condition. Kind of like the purple slime from Ghostbusters 2.
We've had examples of daemons "fusing" with machinery in the franchise before, right up to entire Navy battleships.

Now, this theory is pretty far-fetched, and as such nothing I'd be adopting just yet. But it is an interesting idea. Also because the existence of "neutral" or rather "susceptible" warp entities would be compatible with my thoughts regarding the origin of Living Saints.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394006.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394006.page GMT Machine Spirit?
Lynata wrote:
riplikash wrote:exposed to so many millennia of subtle psyker influence
That's a pretty scary thought that didn't even occur to me until now. What if ... lots of machinery is actually possessed by something accidentally conjured out of the warp? A presence not advanced or intelligent enough to manifest itself as a truly independent daemon or even be recognizable for what it is, but just enough as to affect how a normal piece of technology may work by reacting on outside stimuli (being "appeased" or "angered") to its rudimental emotional condition. Kind of like the purple slime from Ghostbusters 2.
We've had examples of daemons "fusing" with machinery in the franchise before, right up to entire Navy battleships.

Now, this theory is pretty far-fetched, and as such nothing I'd be adopting just yet. But it is an interesting idea. Also because the existence of "neutral" or rather "susceptible" warp entities would be compatible with my thoughts regarding the origin of Living Saints.

Yeah, my personal fluff was always a "a little bit of everything" approach. No one interpretation was totally correct, but that all of it happens to varying degrees and situations.

The machine spirit concept of the layman would be a combination of humanities experiences through the millennia. A little bit of psychic influence, a little bit of daemonic possession, a little bit of ai, some bio computing, a few instances of emergent AI (as we know happens on starships), some political expediency, some military survival necessity, some political corruption, and a lot of cargo cultism all combined together to create a society where believing in machine spirits is healthier than not.

In the end, as you mentioned before, it just ends up being best to universally believe in machine spirits. It would take a genius level combination programmer/engineer/psyker/politician/priest/social scientist to really and truly accurately decide whether you should treat a machine as though it had a spirit in any given situation, so it is best just to act as though it does in EVERY situation.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394114.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394114.page GMT Machine Spirit?
riplikash wrote:It would take a genius level combination programmer/engineer/psyker/politician/priest/social scientist to really and truly accurately decide whether you should treat a machine as though it had a spirit in any given situation [...]
Not to mention that this would be heresy.

]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394201.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394201.page GMT Machine Spirit?
Lynata wrote:
riplikash wrote:It would take a genius level combination programmer/engineer/psyker/politician/priest/social scientist to really and truly accurately decide whether you should treat a machine as though it had a spirit in any given situation [...]
Not to mention that this would be heresy.



One of the many, many reasons it is a good idea just to assume there is a machine spirit. ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394206.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394206.page GMT Machine Spirit?
Certain segments of Imperial society might not know the difference, and a cogitator, or any device for that matter, might be treated as if it has a machine spirit especially by the superstitious. I think that some illuminated individuals (probably heretics according to the Mechanicus) would recognize that some machine rituals are just mumbo-jumbo.

Mass belief in machine spirits (even if some of the devices in question don't actually have one) isn't that far-fetched. I teach graphic design at a college and I've seen people pat, rub, and talk to computers for no other reason than to make sure the machine saves their files correctly ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394276.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394276.page GMT Machine Spirit?
There are different types as mentioned - there's the simple 'appease your bolter / armor / gun light tank machine spirit by maintaining it, otherwise it might get unhappy and jam or whatever.

There's the Land Raider level of 'machine is somewhat 'aware' or 'in synch' with the will of the emperor - EG how a land raider can fire a gun at a seperate enemy or keep moving despite crew loss - realistically it is most likey some sort of fire control or cruise control with simple AI.

Going up to things like Titans - they are somewhat more 'aware' and have 'personalities' but still require some actual human input. It is why these are treated more like living creatures rather than mere machines (as one might regard a bicycle for example!)

Of course it's all mixed in with superstition and ritual - so when you 'anoint the bolter with the oil of cleansing and use the holy impurity remover' you are actually just cleaning the barrel using gun oil.

Machine spirit stuff gets freaky with things like how a bolter 'knows' if it's being fired left or right handed.

Also orks - there's a sort of theory that once orks believe it works then it will work due to a collective psychic ability. There is the story of a mekboy 'fixing' a broken shoota by removing most of the parts! ]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394294.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394294.page GMT Re:Machine Spirit?
If we consider that a Dreadnought is essentially piloted by a human brain in a withered human body, it would not suprise me to find that important and rare vehicles were controlled by human brains 'lobotomised' to the level of a servitor intelligence (or gradations thereof) depending on the complexity of the vehicle. This may also account for the 'heroic' actions these vehicles take on occasion as a result of human loyalty or other characteristics as the 'brain' wishes to prove its usefulness... sad, but probable.

This would also account for the occasions where a vehicle has been 'possessed' by a demon from the warp. Perhaps a vestige of the brains awareness and psychic ability which drew the warp to it.

I would imagine these are lesser entities as the demons from the warp are drawn to the relative power of the individual 'vessel'. A powerful Demon Lord might find a Battleship a worthy host over a lowly Land raider by way of comparison. Where a lesser entity, barely 'conscious', might be drawn to anything it's limited abilities allow it to control considering the overwhelming draw the Material plane has on creatures from the Warp.]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394418.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394418.page GMT Re:Machine Spirit?
Uhlan wrote:This would also account for the occasions where a vehicle has been 'possessed' by a demon from the warp. Perhaps a vestige of the brains awareness and psychic ability which drew the warp to it.
An excellent point.

(sidenote: I keep glancing back to the image I posted ... does anyone else find it creepy how happy the guy on the left looks? he's like "this is the most awesome job ever! ^.^")]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394433.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394433.page GMT Machine Spirit? http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394517.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394517.page GMT Re:Machine Spirit?
Lynata wrote:
Uhlan wrote:This would also account for the occasions where a vehicle has been 'possessed' by a demon from the warp. Perhaps a vestige of the brains awareness and psychic ability which drew the warp to it.
An excellent point.

(sidenote: I keep glancing back to the image I posted ... does anyone else find it creepy how happy the guy on the left looks? he's like "this is the most awesome job ever! ^.^")


Lol, yeah, he looks almost serene...]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394533.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394533.page GMT Re:Machine Spirit?
Lynata wrote:
(sidenote: I keep glancing back to the image I posted ... does anyone else find it creepy how happy the guy on the left looks? he's like "this is the most awesome job ever! ^.^")


I was thinking he has a genial smirk, as if to say "Hey, no need to thank me, it's the least I can do!"]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394603.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4394603.page GMT Machine Spirit?
LORD_PANTERA wrote:So would it be possible for a tech priest or the average guardsman to talk to a machine spirit?
Depends on the interpretation. The lack of an official canon policy means that everybody, including the authors of various books, all have their own idea of what constitutes a machine spirit and to which level it would be possible to communicate with one, so you may have one novel saying this and another saying that, and the studio material is so vague that you can argue both ways. What everybody can agree on, however, is that people in the setting are at least convinced that there is a "god inside the machine" (or rather, an tiny sliver of the Machine God, who can be found in all things technological). Any kind of interaction with a piece of machinery is thus an act of communing with the machine spirit. What matters is both the nature of the interaction as well as how complex said machinery is: Small devices such as lasguns or vox casters can be operated by anyone pure of thought and body, but the Mechanicus insists that more complex tasks such as repairs (requiring the body of the machine to be opened) are ideally only performed by personnel sanctioned by the Cult Mechanicus. Much like the Ecclesiarchy reserves the right to interpret the God-Emperor's will, the AdMech reserves the exclusive privilege of being the only ones able to properly understand the machine spirit, which includes the machine "telling" the Tech-Priests what's wrong with it.
Whether this is actually true or is just a bunch of hocus-pocus is, again, a matter of interpreting the sources and thus personal preference. Unless we're talking about those "real" machine spirits that are formed from brain matter; if those can develop a personality then you may very well have an actual discourse going on between machine and operator, even if all the other stuff is mere superstition.

It's also worth mentioning that many Tech-Priests have some sort of remote access port with which they can interface with cogitators to exchange queries and commands. For the unknowing, this may very well appear wondrous, especially if the Tech-Priest is accompanying the act with ritual gestures.
Tech-Priest, stretching his arms and making a dramatic posture: "Elevatus, open thine womb and let us board, for these puny being of flesh wish to ascend to the Governor's officium!" *transmits a microsecond-infrared-lightbeam-command* *lift door opens*
Bystanders: "Oooooo...."

Dr Mathias wrote:I was thinking he has a genial smirk, as if to say "Hey, no need to thank me, it's the least I can do!"
lol, cannot unsee]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4395163.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4395163.page GMT Machine Spirit? IMO because if else the Tech-Priests are chanting and being downright stupid. It is actually stated that Titans can have personalities, so Machine Spirits of large or important machines can be fickle. Also the Uplifting Primer contains plenty of prayers to appease the lasgun. Plus some Tech-Priests remove half their brain to think logically, which really doesn't make sense when it comes to the machinery.

Also stranger things have happened (the Ultramarines can for odd reasons dart around and not be bombed to death).]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4402042.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4402042.page GMT Re:Machine Spirit?
Off topic
Spoiler:

Lysander proves he is a bigger jerk than Sicarious. Twice.
]]> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4403446.page http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/preList/455118/4403446.page GMT